No apologies have been received.

I will read a note on privilege. Witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to a committee. This means a witness has full defence in any defamation action for anything said at a committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at the Chair's direction. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard and are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity. Witnesses who are to give evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts, and may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on the matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to publication by them, outside of the proceedings held by the committee, of any matters arising from the proceedings.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Parliamentary privilege is considered to apply to the utterances of members participating online in a committee meeting where their participation is from within the parliamentary precincts. Members may not participate online in a public meeting from outside the parliamentary precincts. Any attempt to do so will result in them having their online access removed. Everybody participating today is here in the room and there is no member or witness online at the moment.

The agenda for today's meeting is issues around recruitment and retention of veterinary nurses. The committee will hear from the Irish Veterinary Nurses Association. We have Ms Kellie Fagan, chairperson; Mr. Mark McCorry, secretary; and Ms Sarah Keane, treasurer. Cuirim fáilte rompu. Their opening statement has been circulated and members have had an opportunity to read it. I will give the witnesses five minutes to read through the statement. After that, we will go to questions and answers. I bring to the witnesses' attention that because the Dáil and Seanad are sitting, members may have to step out from time to time. If there is a vote in the Dáil, we will look to our Senators to keep the meeting going or we will suspend.

I thank the Chairperson and members of the committee for the opportunity to address them. I am chairperson of the Irish Veterinary Nurses Association, the representative body for veterinary nurses in Ireland. Registered veterinary nurses are qualified, regulated healthcare professionals who are fundamental to the safe and effective delivery of veterinary services, contributing directly to patient outcomes, clinical governance, animal welfare standards and the overall sustainability of veterinary healthcare provision in Ireland. It is a profession that is overwhelmingly female, with 97% of registered veterinary nurses in Ireland being women, mostly aged between 20 and 30.

I am here to discuss a profession facing a serious retention crisis. Our colleges report that veterinary nursing programmes remain heavily oversubscribed and highly sought after. The profession is successfully recruiting people but is failing to retain them. The Veterinary Council's workforce report identified veterinary nursing workforce issues as its number one priority area and highlighted the need to improve recruitment, retention, recognition and utilisation of veterinary nurses. Nearly two years later, many nurses feel little has changed.

The retention crisis is worsening. Our 2026 survey found that nearly 76% of veterinary nurses are considering leaving, unsure about remaining or planning to leave the profession altogether. The main reasons are low pay, burn-out, poor work-life balance and limited career progression. Despite being highly skilled, regulated healthcare professionals with significant responsibility for patient care, many veterinary nurses earn an average salary of just €36,800 per year. Many report unpaid overtime, inadequate breaks and difficulties balancing family life and career. Nurses tell us repeatedly they love their work but cannot build a sustainable life around it. This is not simply a workforce issue; it is a women's workforce issue. When a predominantly female profession requires third level qualifications and carries significant responsibility, yet does not provide sufficient financial security or work-life balance to sustain a long-term career, we should be asking ourselves serious questions about how that profession is valued.

Confidence in regulation is alarmingly low. Only 24% of respondents felt comfortable reporting potential breaches of veterinary legislation, while 73% feared approaching the Veterinary Council with concerns. Only 6% believed the council effectively safeguarded the interests of veterinary nurses. We also found significant compliance concerns, with 39% reporting breaches of veterinary legislation and 66% reporting unregistered individuals performing veterinary nursing duties. This is not simply about professional identity. Title protection exists to protect the public, protect animal welfare and ensure that people carrying out veterinary nursing duties are appropriately qualified, accountable and regulated. When title protection is not visibly enforced, confidence in the system is weakened. Some 42% of respondents reported concerns regarding standards of care. Protecting animal welfare depends on maintaining a resilient veterinary workforce with the resources, support and accountability needed to consistently deliver high-quality care.

There is another issue that needs to be addressed: representation. Veterinary nurses make up over 1,200 regulated professionals in Ireland. We are a regulated profession in our own right, yet veterinary nurses have only one seat on the Veterinary Council, while veterinary surgeons have nine. It means that the profession most affected by many of these issues has limited influence over the decisions that shape its future. If we are serious about creating a sustainable veterinary workforce, veterinary nurses must have a stronger voice in the regulatory structures that govern them.

Veterinary nurses enter this profession out of dedication, compassion and a genuine commitment to improving the lives of animals. They accept the challenges, the responsibilities and the emotional demands because they believe in the value of their work. The tragedy is that many of these highly skilled professionals still love what they do, but increasingly feel the profession they have devoted themselves to cannot support them financially, professionally or personally in the long term. The consequences extend beyond veterinary nurses. They affect veterinary practices struggling to recruit staff. They affect rural communities trying to access veterinary services. They affect students seeking mentorship and clinical placements. They affect animal owners. Ultimately, they affect animal welfare.

We are asking for action. We are asking for stronger and more proportional veterinary nurse representation within the Veterinary Council. We are asking for meaningful enforcement and education around title protection and scope of practice. We are asking for confidential reporting mechanisms that allow professionals to raise concerns without fear of retaliation. We are asking for transparent career pathways, better utilisation of veterinary nursing skills, meaningful progression opportunities and support in developing a structured pay and career progression framework for veterinary nurses. We are asking that the recommendations identified in the Veterinary Council's workforce review be translated into measurable actions rather than remaining aspirations on paper.

The future of veterinary nurses in Ireland cannot be secured through recruitment alone. We are not facing a recruitment crisis; we are facing a retention crisis. The students are enrolling, the graduates are qualifying and the commitment is there. What we are missing is a profession that enables veterinary nurses to build a sustainable future within it. If we fail to address that now, we will continue to train highly skilled professionals only to watch them leave. For the sake of veterinary nurses, veterinary services, rural communities and animal welfare, we cannot afford to let that happen.

I thank Ms Fagan. Before we go to the floor, I have one or two quick questions. Animal welfare is a major issue for the committee. The people on the front line of that are veterinary nurses, so we want to make sure there is availability and everything is working successfully there. Ms Fagan is highlighting a number of issues and pointing, particularly, to rural communities having a difficulty in accessing veterinary services. Is it an urban-rural issue or is it across the country? Burn-out, low pay and career progression are issues I would associate with being across the country.

It is, unfortunately, across the country that we are seeing these factors. There are obviously issues in certain rural counties where they do not have the same number of nurses in comparison to vet clinics. Some are as low as 0.6% of nurses in practice across these clinics. Cavan and Donegal are particularly affected by it but it is widespread throughout the industry.

I thank the witnesses for coming in. I was contacted by a number of veterinary nurses on this issue. I asked the committee to facilitate a discussion on it because it is clear to me that if everybody in the system is not valued and working together, then the system will not work. That is one of the key issues.

The Chair mentioned the urban-rural divide and I would also like clarity on that. Many vets in suburban Ireland are small-animal vets. They do not deal with the farm animal aspect of it very much. Is it the same in that category as in the larger vet practices that deal with farm animals as well?

At the moment, we have a shortage of veterinary nurses right across the country, in urban and rural areas. The issue we see with rural practices and practices that are geographically isolated is that 92% of farm animal practices have no registered veterinary nurse at all and 86% of equine practices do not have any. Some 44% of mixed-animal practices, which would tend to be a lot more rural, in the likes of Longford, Leitrim, Cavan and Roscommon, would have a higher number of farm animals and large animals. Most of those clinics do not have any veterinary nurse at all. Straight away an increase in work demand is being created. Vets' hours are increasing, which is causing the veterinary retention issue that we also see. The retention issue is not just isolated to veterinary nurses; it affects veterinary practitioners as well. Most of our surveys and research have focused on veterinary nurses.

In regards to workforce planning and veterinary, basically we need to have formal recognition. This is one of the things we need to see for veterinarians. As essential healthcare professionals within the national workforce and mental health agencies - all of those - veterinary nurses are not in the same bracket as nurses who are looking after people. That is one of the issues that needs to be dealt with.

The issue of wages and salary is of course something that comes up regularly and Ms Keane has spoken about quite a low average wage. I know from speaking to some people that, having gone to college, gone through the mill and worked very hard, they are starting on a very low income. Is that one of the primary reasons for the retention crisis?

Yes, it certainly is. It is the number one reason every time we do a survey. Any surveys to date have highlighted that pay is the number one issue for veterinary nurses staying in the profession. As the Deputy said, they have dedicated three or four years of study to getting a degree and then they are going out and earning just above the living wage. Unfortunately, then, as they become more involved in the practice, five or ten years in they are trying to get a house or become established, move on with their lives and focus on other things. Unfortunately, it is just not sustainable, so that is the number one reason. Some 99% of people in the surveys say pay is the number one issue. That needs to be addressed if we are going to retain these nurses.

When people are training I assume a certain amount of it would be placement with a vet. Are students paid during that placement, or is that an issue?

No, placement is unpaid. The issue could be that-----

How long is it for?

There is a minimum requirement of about 600 hours over the term of their course.

The VCI has now increased the requirement to 850 hours.

Over the three or four years of the degree programme, students are required to do 600 hours, and that will increase to 850 clinical hours, all unpaid. We reached out to our institutions to see what feedback they had. They found that this made it difficult for students to focus on the clinical placements. When they are unpaid it is hard for them because they obviously need to earn a living too. A lot of them are having to work part-time outside of that as well.

My daughter did normal nursing, looking after humans, and that issue had been there but in recent years it has changed and nursing students are paid when they are on placement in hospitals. This really needs to be looked at because it cannot be one set of rules for one group and a different set for another.

It was mentioned that the VCI course has only one space on it for veterinary nurses. Is that an issue in regard to the constitution or the way that body is made up? How can that be changed or is there any evidence that there is-----

We have communicated with the VCI on this issue. It has said that there has to be a Department communication and agreement to make those changes. To our knowledge, we currently we have no nurses on the fitness to practice committee or the preliminary investigation committee. These committees investigate any claims of a malpractice, welfare issues or any breaches of the legislation that is in place. Currently, nurses coming in front of these committees are not peer reviewed. It goes back to the fact that we do not have a nurse advocating on our behalf at the same proportional level. We do not have equal representation on the council, let alone proportional representation. There are 1,200 veterinary nurses in Ireland and over 3,000 vets. Currently, there are nine vets on the council but we have only one nurse currently as an elected representative on the council.

The committee raised this issue before. Is there also an issue in regard to a lot of the veterinary practices which would traditionally be family owned moving to become a more corporate model? Is it a fear for the future that there would be more of a race to the bottom in regard to wages and conditions?

The introduction of corporates into Ireland has been both positive and negative. For the veterinary nurses in particular, a lot of the corporates have introduced pay scales.

Just a moment, please. Senator Daly will take the Chair.

Unfortunately, I need to leave as well, as we have a vote in the Dáil.

Was Senator Daly not before me?

I was but under the circumstances I will give you the floor, Senator.

The issue of wages is really sticking out for me, simply because I have a teenage daughter who is doing the junior certificate. She is trying to decide on what subjects she wants to do, what she is going to be when she leaves school and what she needs for her CAO points. She always had an interest in veterinary, but when she saw the number of points involved in it and what colleges she could go to, all she saw was barriers. The points required to study veterinary science or veterinary nursing are very high. Then people come out after four years, maybe more sometimes, and they are on a salary of €36,000.

That is the average wage as well.

People could be on less than that.

That is the average wage and that is taken into account. It could apply to practice managers who could be managing multiple clinics or multiple teams. That is the average wage of a veterinary nurse, based on our survey.

Veterinary nurse is predominantly a female role. I worked in finance years ago and when I had small kids the cost of my childcare exceeded my wages, so I ended up giving up work and staying at home. When it came around to looking to go back into the workforce I was not willing to leave the house for less than €40,000 because my pay would have had to cover childcare and getting to and from work. It is a real deterrent for people to see that is the kind of wage they are expected to live off. At that point they may be wanting to start a family or get their own house. It is not a liveable wage. For a profession that is so highly regarded and so sought after, you would imagine that it would be much higher.

The demographic of veterinary nurses has changed as well. We have all been nursing now for nearly 20 years. Now there is a lot more diversity going into the veterinary nursing programmes. There are people with family commitments, with kids, or who are caring for family members at home. Going into those practices on those low wages, straight away they are at a disadvantage. The majority of our nurses are between 20 and 30 years of age. I did research on retention of veterinary nurses in clinical practice and only 10% of the veterinary nurses who responded were in the 45-or-above age bracket. This means the nurses are not even getting to their mid-40s still in practice and they are having to leave due to financial constraints or family commitments.

Yes, that seems to be a huge issue. Are the cost-of-living crisis and the housing crisis coming into play? Is the cost of living in Ireland - like for every other profession - pushing veterinary nurses towards Australia, Canada or Dubai?

It is definitely a factor but it is not the main one. This retention issue has been going on for years. When we started out, UCD was the only college available to provide veterinary nursing as a qualification. Come September, we will have six colleges that will be producing-----

That is great because I know that can be a major deterrent for somebody coming out of sixth year, whether it is not wanting to be too far away from family or not being able to afford to live outside the county. It is a massive cost to have to live away from home while in college. This is especially true when someone is doing something as important as veterinary nursing. Having a part-time job to cover yourself to be able to go to college means a lot of stress. It is a very strong course and I am sure there is a lot involved in it.

They are going into it and there is going to be a certain amount of debt accrued throughout their college experience. They are not going out into well-paid jobs to recoup that loss that they have been accruing over the past number of years and those qualifications.

Is there a call for the work placement to be paid? Is that coming on board?

We definitely would be looking for that. We would be looking to get proper pay scales in order, based on experience and that there is clarity within the profession. Currently, there are so many discrepancies. From the feedback in our survey, we know that is a big issue they have. Pay was cited as a reason to leave for 92%. If we can get some clarity on that, it would be a huge-----

That is a massive percentage.

Another aspect of it is mental health, which we have seen a huge shift in. Up to 81% of those respondents would consider leaving due to burn out and mental health.

That would be like having to do overtime and-----

Overtime and not getting adequate breaks.

That is coming down to the retention issue because there is a lack of staff. There are some doing the job of one and a half or two people.

Regarding the hourly rate, the lowest figure on that was €12.40 an hour. That is quite low.

That is very low.

I think the guys would agree, but I do not know any nurse who left because they did not like the job.

Even in general nursing, it is not because they do not like the job; it usually comes down to the conditions or pay. I talk to a lot of younger people who are going through exams. The first question they ask when they look at a course is, "What will I get paid at the end?" Has the association seen more of a drop in uptake of the course rather than-----

No. All the colleges we have spoken to have said that there has been no decrease. It is a highly sought-after-----

Okay, that is very interesting.

-----profession. When they get into it and out into the real world and start getting their payslips every month, that is when the reality-----

That is when it hits.

Exactly. They are definitely oversubscribed. There is not an issue with attracting nurses into this profession. It is just purely based on retaining those who are already there.

If we can get their salaries-----

They are saying that there are nearly six to ten applicants per place in the institutions. Retention within the courses is quite high. People are enjoying the courses. They are finishing them and they are going into the profession but then, unfortunately, the profession seems to be letting them down.

It is after the course that it is letting them down.

The only issue that the colleges might encounter is to get the supervision for these nurses when they are out on placement because we do not have those registered veterinary nurses to supervise them when they are out on their placement. That is the only aspect that they have raised as a concern.

The Senator asked a question earlier about the cost-of-living crisis and whether that is affecting things. A total of 96% of the nurses who responded to the surveys we have carried out - we have done three surveys over the past ten years, in 2018, 2020 and 2026 - were educated and graduated in Ireland. They are being educated in Ireland and are staying in Ireland. It is just the lack of wage. We are not looking for pay increases.; we are just looking for transparency around pay.

And a pay scale.

There is a huge disparity between clinics, depending on whether they are rural or urban based. We are looking for scales.

I welcome the witnesses. Their presentation said it all. It is all there, including the applications for the courses and the retention on the courses. It is not a recruitment issue; it is retention. The nature of the job is that it is a vocation. It is not based on getting the points and maybe giving it a try. They do not go in to become a veterinary nurse unless they are animal lovers and have a vocation. It is down to retention.

Through the Chair, I wish to get clarity. From memory, we also invited the Veterinary Council of Ireland, VCI, and the Department here today. The Department was not available and the veterinary council said it is not its responsibility. If it is a wages thing, whose responsibility is it? The three witnesses are the only ones here and there was a group other parties invited. It is important for that to go on the record.

If I am a vet and Deputy Kenny is a vet and we both own our practices and we are both recruiting a veterinary nurse, can we decide? For example, when I am interviewing for a veterinary nurse can I tell applicants they will get €40,000 a year, but if he wants he can give them €50,000 or try to get them for €30,000? Is that the way it is? Is it down to each individual? If it is, what do the witnesses think we can do? I am not being facetious. If it is down to individual private employers or businesses to set the wage, there is no wage level set under the legislation other than the minimum wage, which is the only thing we can influence. How can we help to solve the problem?

The first thing I wish to address that the Senator brought up is that there were other stakeholders that were invited to this. I highlight to everybody that we are a voluntary organisation. We have had to take holidays to be here. Any of this work that we do is carried out in our own personal time.

In response to the issues that are there, there is a lot that needs to be covered. It is not just pay that is a factor. Pay is definitely a huge issue that needs to be addressed. Ideally, we need to get a proper sectoral employment order in place, such that it continues not just for pay rates, but also factors in being on call. There are many nurses who do not get paid for being on call. They might have to stay in an area, within a specific radius, but will not get paid unless they get called in. Even at that, they could be rostered to finish at 2 a.m. and then be in again at 8 a.m. the next day to start another shift. We need proper structuring in that regard. A lot of this would be transferable to general nurses, but there is a huge power imbalance because we have nurses who are going out who are effectively working alongside their employers who pay their wages at the end of the day.

Regarding all these issues that are coming up, we have a huge number of issues within the VCI and approachability there. We only have 6% confidence in the VCI safeguarding the protection of nurses. There were 99 nurses, which was over one in four, reported working with lay staff who had been calling themselves veterinary nurses. This is a huge issue. This is why we were hoping that the likes of VCI would be here today to address those concerns. Pay is not the only issue; there is also the protection of the title that needs to be upheld. That is a huge issue for nurses as well. They are going to be going out and getting these qualifications, working on low wages and at the end of the day, as reported in the survey, there are individuals out there who are carrying out the acts of nurses who did not have to carry the financial burden that those nurses had to go through to get their qualifications. They are carrying out the same duties, however.

When Ms Fagan says the witnesses are volunteers and are here today in a voluntary capacity on behalf of a representative body, do the witnesses have a union as such? Are they affiliated to any union at all?

No. We are just a representative body. We do not have union status currently.

Are any of the association's members a member of a union?

Some of them would be individually, but it would be quite low numbers. Again, it is pay. If they have to join, particularly some of the larger trade unions, it is a huge expense. To put it into perspective, for nurses to work they have to pay €245 in VCI fees. That has gone for another increase this year. A total of 20% of our respondents are paying that out of pocket on an average wage of €36,800.

The witnesses highlighted the imbalance as regards nurses' representation on VCI, but I assume their representative would be raising these issues. What kind of hearing is he or she getting? Are they getting any? Are they getting any recognition or making any progress for the association as a member of VCI?

We do not have much transparency with the ongoing day-to-day rulings of it. We might just get the results of these discussions. We get a lot of the information from the reports. We are pushing it and raise concerns regarding the lay staff and things like that. Unfortunately, with the likes of that, we do not get any communication back because of the legal proceedings that are there.

How is the nurses' representative on VCI selected?

They would have been elected by the public, by the veterinary profession. It would have been voted on by veterinary nurses and vets alike for that elected member.

Is it just one position?

Yes. What we are hoping to achieve today is that veterinary nurses are looking for more regulation. We are looking for more protection of the title. Currently, we have numbers who are reporting lay staff representing themselves as veterinary nurses.

If this continues it will be an animal welfare issue in the long run, if there are unqualified people representing themselves as veterinary nurses and the public do not know these people are not qualified. The college degrees are three and four years long. It is a protected title since 2008 and a regulated profession. We are looking for more regulation and protection of the title and that would come directly from the VCI, which is our regulatory body. Unfortunately, we are not getting a huge amount of correspondence or response from it. Our members have reported that even trying to report lay staff working as veterinary nurses in practices does not get a huge response from the regulatory body either.

We are looking for enforcement. We do have the regulation there but we feel there is no enforcement of those regulations. Even if we could go a step further and have clear prosecutions for the use of title, it would go a long way in deterring that. Currently, we have engaged with the VCI for clarification on the issues of the numbers that are coming and the prosecutions that are in place, but there has not been much transparency in the information we have received.

I propose we approach the VCI again about coming in to discuss this issue at committee.

Very good. Before I go to the next speaker, I will clarify something. The witnesses are saying their members pay a €240 per year registration fee. To whom do they pay it?

It is €245. It was €225 last year but it increased. We asked for clarification on that and the VCI said the increase was in line with inflation.

Is the person on the council elected by both the veterinary nurses and the vets?

No. We do not get a say in the vets' representation. That is entirely their one and we would-----

What about the one person-----

The nurse.

-----representing the veterinary nurses? Is it veterinary nurses only or vets and veterinary nurses who vote?

It is just veterinary nurses.

I thank the witnesses for their opening statement. They outlined a very strong interest in the career pathway, given the number who apply to take the courses in colleges, which is good to see. Where do all these qualified nurses go? Do they go abroad or do they stay here in the country? Do they take up other jobs? If they do take up jobs, what length of time do they stay in the veterinary nurse role? Do they get jobs in veterinary nurses roles going forward?

Currently, 96% of nurses in Ireland are trained in Ireland so they are staying for a period of time. The average time spent per clinic for a veterinary nurse is about two and a half years. A nurse will work in one clinic for two and a half years and then move on. From respondents to our surveys, only 10% of those nurses had worked as a veterinary nurse for more than ten years and only 3% of them had worked as a veterinary nurse for more than 20 years. Once they get past a certain time, they are moving into other roles, be it within the veterinary industry or sometimes leaving the veterinary industry altogether.

Why do they move on so soon after the two and a half years? Why do they not continue in the profession?

It is due to working conditions. Pay is a huge issue. There is burn-out from long hours, inadequate breaks and inadequate time off between shifts. There has been a large number of reports of witnessing animal welfare issues within clinics. These obviously affect mental health and well-being.

Are we nearly saying the job is not suitable for these nurses?

It is not that it is unsuitable. We just need the enforcement of the regulations that are there. Pay is something we need to look at to get the structure in there but we have the legislation to support the likes of animal welfare issues. To put it into a different perspective, if a nurse encounters an animal welfare issue, currently he or she would report it to the VCI, say he or she witnessed this issue or concern and would have to sign his or her name to a statement. It is then sent to whoever the nurse is making the accusation against for them to be fully aware of it. The issue with that is there is a power imbalance. Similarly, nurses have some sort of structure where they can report anonymously to the CEO. We do not have that structure in place for veterinary nurses. You have to directly report these issues and sign your name, which is a huge deterrent. It can be seen from the numbers that nurses are afraid of losing their jobs and of retaliation. In their eyes, their own livelihoods could be at risk due to reporting these issues. We definitely need to tackle pay but we also need to have enforcement of the regulations that are there.

The veterinary nurses really are not getting enough support.

Yes.

It is disappointing to be honest. Given that veterinary nurses have similar education and clinical training compared with other healthcare professionals, how do the witnesses explain the significant difference in pay, career progression and overall recognition? What changes could be made by the Government to address the imbalance? There is a big imbalance with the wages. The witnesses said the nurses are getting €36,800.

A lot of it is because it is predominantly a female profession. That is a huge issue. You can even see with the research from the European veterinary association there is a pay difference of over €10,000 between female vets and male vets, whereas we have a 97% female demographic in our pay scale. That is definitely a huge factor as well. We are asking for support to develop a structured pay scale, with clear remuneration based on experience. We have also put it to the VCI to look into having a nurse practitioner progression, the same as with general nurses, where there are opportunities to advance based on the levels that are there. We hope the VCI will look into something like that which would help with the pay aspect. At the end of the day, we need to have a structured pay scale.

My belief is what we have been told here today is that if we do not get a balance, nurses will avoid going to college and training as veterinary nurses going forward. Could that be a problem in the future?

It does not seem to be because the numbers going into college are so high. The problem is that we are losing very good, qualified nurses on the other side of that. Some of that comes back to one of the other biggest issues which is lack of utilisation. There is a real lack of understanding of what the skill set of a veterinary nurse is. There is a lack of respect and recognition from the general public and our veterinary practitioner colleagues as well. It is about educating them on what the skill set is. If you said to anybody that we can reduce your workload, make it easier, work better as a team, have better patient outcomes and have better client communications and education with owners, anyone would say yes to that. There is a gap there in getting that across.

The number coming out of college is 231. We only have the data on this from 2024, but those who voluntarily removed themselves from the VCI register and would be unable to work as nurses was 124. We have over 1,200 nurses on that register, just to put into perspective the number of nurses that are leaving.

It is encouraging to see so many are interested in going to college but they end up like this after spending their time in college. To see this situation is not good enough and not fair on the nurses.

There are currently no guidelines around further career progression when you qualify. Many of our nurses would be very enthusiastic about studying and going on to do postgraduate certificates but at the moment there is no financial benefit for nurses in doing that. Again, they are training, retraining and specialising in certain areas for no reward.

I want to compliment the witnesses on the voluntary work they are doing to try to support the cause. I thank them.

On the figures for those coming out of college in 2024, did only half of them register?

No. A total of 231 will be qualifying this year with the college that was there, but the voluntary removal from the register in 2024 was 124.

The biggest reason was a change in work-life balance, which was at 57%. Career progression, at 52%, was next, with a change in working terms and conditions at 55%.

Wages are one issue and retaining staff is another. I worked at a stud farm for many years, where I was pulling and running bloods, taking swabs from the vet and doing them up in the laboratory, doing injections into veins and muscles and so on. There was no veterinary nurse on the farm. The manager was a vet. I was not a veterinary nurse and nor did the management claim that I was one. I gained plenty of knowledge to take home to my own farm. Was it not the employer's fault, in that situation, that I was employed as a stud hand, on the same wages as everybody else, but was actually doing those jobs? I got out of mucking out for a bit, which was the best part. I could say "No" to doing that as I had to go down to the laboratory. I then went to a farm in England where I worked at foaling. I was not taking bloods there but I was running them and taking back the results. I got to know what the results meant and whether there was pneumonia present or whatever else. Again, I was not a veterinary nurse and nor was I employed as one.

When Ms Keane says there is an issue in this regard, does she refer just to the fact people are doing that work or is she saying they are going for jobs that are advertised as being for veterinary nurses? Are people saying they can do the job for lower wages? What does she think is really the issue?

I think the issue is that there are no repercussions for employers. A vet can hire an unqualified person who could do all of those things and pay him or her €13 an hour, or that vet could look for a registered veterinary nurse who can support him or her in a million other aspects of work, including carrying out minor surgical procedures and performing different in-clinic roles, but that person might have to be paid €2 more. Why would vets bother hiring a veterinary nurse when they can get away with hiring lay staff to do the same thing for less money? The problem is there is no repercussion for doing that. The veterinary community in Ireland is very small. Everybody knows everybody else and it is well known that there are no repercussions for doing that. Recent figure showed that 181 veterinary clinics had no veterinary nurse. I do not know how a veterinary clinic runs without a veterinary nurse.

Is that situation more likely where the clinic deals with small animals or where it deals with larger animals, such as in the agricultural and equine sectors? Is the situation Ms Keane outlined more often seen in one sector rather than another?

It is definitely more often seen with large animals. As Mr. McCorry said, it is a case of not knowing what a nurse can actually do. If all rural practices had at least one veterinary nurse, it would take an absolutely huge burden and workload off veterinary practitioners. A new targeted advisory service on animal health, TASAH, scheme was introduced recently whereby vets will offer farmers one free veterinary farm visit and consultation to discuss issues like parasite control, biosecurity and TB protocols. There is no reason veterinary nurses cannot be involved in those aspects of schemes being introduced by the Department of agriculture. The support we could offer veterinary practitioners across Ireland is massive.

We have talked about how smaller practices probably will not bother to hire a veterinary nurse but larger practices may do so. Is it the case that there might be one nurse in a bigger practice, with other staff in that practice basically doing the same job as well?

That tends to happen. A hospital will have a surgical suite, anaesthesia services and perhaps CT, MRI and radiography facilities, but it might have no veterinary nurse. In 2024, there were ten veterinary hospitals registered with the Veterinary Council of Ireland that had no veterinary nurse.

Were they mostly equine hospitals?

We do not have that information.

We were hoping representatives of the VCI would be here today to provide some clarity on that. As of 1 January 2026, it is a requirement to have a veterinary nurse in a hospital setting. We looked for confirmation that there was compliance with that aspect. The council has our names, our work numbers and the number of hospitals, so it would be able to cross-check that information. We were hoping to get it today. The VCI has made a recommendation that there be veterinary nurses in veterinary clinics but it is not compulsory.

I have a final question. Are we losing trained staff to abroad? The witnesses indicated that people are moving on to other things after staying in practice for an average of just over two years. Are those staff leaving the country?

We did not ask people whether they were leaving the country. We just went into the reasons they were leaving practice, which were predominantly pay, mental health and burnout. Anecdotally, in correspondence we receive, we see that people are leaving to go to other professions in Ireland. We do not have the exact data to show how many are leaving the country.

A lot of the non-clinical nurses we surveyed moved into veterinary education or sales roles. The average wage for a non-clinical nurse working in the veterinary industry was €37,500 in 2023, with an average take-home wage per hour of €21. When we compare that with the hourly rate of €17 for veterinary nurses, we see that people can be paid a lot more if they leave a clinic and go into sales, pharmaceuticals or veterinary education.

I thank the witnesses.

I have a quick question before calling Deputy Aird. Reference was made to 232 people qualifying and approximately half that number deregistering each year. Do the people who deregister go on to register again at any future time or is it a one-way process such that when they leave, they are gone?

A small minority of those people said they were thinking of going back. I do not have the figures to hand but it was a very low percentage and certainly very minor in comparison with the total number leaving.

I thank Ms Fagan.

I welcome the witnesses. If they do not mind me saying, what we have heard is depressing. People go to college for three years, or is it four?

They go for three or four years.

Like everything else, if there is a four-year course, people nearly have to do it to be able to put it on their CV. Then, after that, the start-off pay is €36,000, if I understood correctly.

That is the average pay.

That means people could be on less than €30,000.

Yes, we have seen positions for new graduates advertised at €28,000 and €30,000.

After going to college for four years, they get a job on €30,000, with the prospect of ever getting more than that being slim or none. There are a lot of questions to be answered in that regard. I second Senator Daly's call to bring in representatives of the VCI to discuss it.

The questions I was going to ask about why people are leaving have already been raised. In fact, I know why they are leaving and the statistics the witnesses have given us stack up from that point of view. What would the structural pay and career progression framework they have called for look like in practice and who should be responsible for implementing it? If they could wave a magic wand, what would they like to see happening?

Oversight should come from regulatory bodies and, I hope, the Department of agriculture. We would like to see them setting down a framework for newly qualified nurses, those with so many years' experience and those who have progressed to postgraduate certificates. All we are looking for is to be rewarded for the effort and work we are putting into these roles in practice.

How can the structural pay and career progression framework be achieved without placing unsustainable financial pressure on veterinary practices, especially small rural practices?

This would all come into play with the balance of nurses and so on. As I said, some veterinary clinics do not currently have a veterinary nurse. There should be supports for smaller rural practices to help them to have a transparent pay framework for their employees.

There must be recognition of the revenue generation that comes from nurses. We are not just pulling on resources.

We can generate money and take the burden off veterinary clinics that are struggling. The retention of vets is another issue. There is so much more within the scope, whether that is getting the education out to the public or increasing vets' awareness of what we can do and the revenue that is available.

How widespread do the witnesses believe breaches of veterinary legislation are across the sector? What specific enforcement measures would they like to see being enforced by the veterinary council? Ms Fagan referred to them earlier.

In our most recent survey, 39% of respondents witnessed breaches of veterinary legislation. The highest one was individuals performing veterinary nursing duties. That was 66%. The next were breaches in anaesthesia sedation protocol, inadequate supervision and record-keeping failures. From the feedback that we have, it is quite widespread. We had 372 respondents to that survey we carried out. We got a good amount of feedback from it. Twenty of those respondents were students.

That is fair enough. We will be able to ask those questions when we have the veterinary council in. The witnesses spoke about representation and the fact that the Irish Veterinary Nurses Association has one representative on the veterinary council. What level of representation for veterinary nurses would the Irish Veterinary Nurses Association consider fair? How would increasing that representation improve outcomes?

We are asking for a minimum of proportional representation-----

What would that do for the association?

It would create a bit more awareness within the council of the struggles that we have. It is difficult for those in different roles, whether they are vets or nurses-----

People doing different jobs.

-----to give a well-rounded view of the difficulties that they face. If we do not have that equal representation, we are not going to make any movement. We also need to have a voice in there calling for stronger enforcement of these regulations.

That is fair enough.

If nurses are underutilised in practice, that is because veterinary practitioners may not be aware of their skill set. How can a veterinary practitioner speak on behalf of veterinary nurses when they do not understand their skill set or what their needs are? If we want to know what a veterinary nurse needs and we need representation on that body, we should ask a veterinary nurse. One cannot go to all of them.

We have criticised the lack of progress regarding the veterinary council, but what specific measurable targets should the Government or the veterinary council be judged against to determine if progress has actually been made?

With regard to the welfare concerns in particular, we would like a change in the protocols that are there, such as maybe an anonymous reporting system or some sort of a confidential reporting system because, as we said-----

When Ms Fagan is saying that, what is she talking about? I use vets regularly and, to be honest, I have never seen a veterinary nurse come with a vet. The only place I ever saw a veterinary nurse with a vet was in Newbridge. Danny McHenry is retired now, but he was in Newbridge for many years and is a nice man. He always had a veterinary nurse with him, but he was dealing in small animals and did a huge amount of business with the greyhound sector. He needed a veterinary nurse coming and going to look at and tag the dog. The nurse was really needed. However, when a vet comes out to me when a cow is calving, what could a veterinary nurse do? Will the witnesses give me an example?

The Deputy is asking three small animal veterinary nurses.

That is all right. I will it leave it so.

Is the Deputy asking whether a veterinary nurse is qualified to calve a cow?

What I am trying to say to the witnesses is that there are certainly jobs and areas where a veterinary nurse is more suitable. We are talking about practices for large animals. When I saw the statistics, I thought that might be a little bit unfair to practising vets. The vet who comes to me to look at a sick animal, calving cows and all that, I do not know what a veterinary nurse could do with that person. That is all that I am saying.

That goes back to our thing about representation on the council. If we are struggling to come up with what a large animal or equine nurse may need and cannot give a definitive answer, that reinforces the idea that we need to have a stronger representation of nurses on that committee as well.

If a vet has seen the animal, the nurse can then do follow-up visits. As we said, if there is a parasite or things like that, nurses can go out an educate and inform the farmer of anything that might be needed and do follow-up visits. The vet would have to see the animal originally, but then there are skill sets that can be included. That saves the vet from having to go out.

Biosecurity is another thing as well. We all know that there is a huge issue with anti-microbial resistance and things like that. Nurses could give some advice on that and take the burden off these practitioners.

I thank the witnesses for coming in. It is a pity that we do not have the two other groups here because it would have been very interesting. I totally understand where the witnesses are coming from. I am a farmer too. We have a number of practices in Longford and in fairness, we have trainee vets who go to work in practices for experience. They are not yet vets and are probably down as trainee nurses in practices even though they are going on to be vets. They are in with the smaller animals and diagnosing the same as a nurse does. The vet will then come and check up on the diagnosis, whether it is for a scan, cancer or an operation. The rules and regulations around veterinary nurses should be the same as in a hospital. The exact same protocols and structures are needed for the services they provide. Call outs at night and, as Deputy Aird said, calving cows will never be the veterinary nurse's job, but they can still be on call. If a veterinary practice is on emergency calls for the weekend, a nurse is on call that same way the vet is on call. If a vet has to provide an operation to a dog having pups or anything else, the vet will automatically bring in the nurse who is on call. There are areas where dogs are kept in kennels over the weekend. The vet will not be in there, but the veterinary nurse will be in there, whether it is to remove stitches or other things.

The qualifications that a veterinary nurse has are certainly welcome, but it is about getting a structure in place and getting a wage package. I would love to know the number of nurses who upskill. The witnesses said that they are small animal nurses, but a certain percentage of nurses go into the equine industry, larger animals and move around for experience. What is the retention rate? One of the witnesses said that some people left the practice within two and half years, but they did not just leave the practice. They left to go to another practice or to upskill. There should be a pay scale based on the years of experience and it should be recognised by veterinary council.

We need to maintain upskilling as well. We have a certain level to attain. We have to get 12 points of continuous education to maintain our registration, so it is not just the registration fees that are incurred. Some of these costs will be paid by employers, but we also have to pay for our insurance and for our continuous education. The Irish Veterinary Nurses Association provides low-cost educational courses to the nurses of Ireland. Every May we have an annual congress and we try to keep costs low, but it is another expense and it is another obstacle for nurses to maintain that.

Is there legislation that says, if a practice has 700 clients, including small and large animals, it must have a designated nurse?

No. There is currently no ratio and that is another thing that we would like to see looked at. We would like to see a specific ratio based on the number of patients that a practice is working with.

Another issue is that only a premises that is down as a registered veterinary hospital legally has to have a registered veterinary nurse. There are also registered veterinary clinics. It just shows the lack of value placed on nurses because the VCI says that clinics should have veterinary nurses. They do not have to, but they should have it. The difference is-----

One is a clinic, and one is a hospital.

-----a clinic is basically doing a lot of the day-to-day work, such as neutering, surgeries, anaesthetics and a lot of medical and surgical procedures as well as diagnostic imaging on a more GP level.

In 2024, there were 409 of those clinics, of which 181 did not have a veterinary nurse. I do not see how a clinic can work without a veterinary nurse without adding more pressure onto the veterinary practitioners who then have to do everything. They are suffering stress and burnout as well. This relates to the entire profession.

Reference was made to veterinary nurses reporting what they see as malpractice. We will not see that because a person will not report their boss because they know where they will end up. That is the reality.

Yes.

In order to get a better structure in place, there must be some mechanism where there should be a line of inquiry where a nurse can report having witnessed X, Y, and Z. Unfortunately, they cannot report it because they work in the practice and do not want to get fired or want to avoid ending up with an uncomfortable working relationship.

What the witnesses are basically saying is there is a need to strengthen the rules and regulations regarding the qualifications of a nurse. Years served means added time plus money and overtime means overtime, the same as for an ordinary nurse.

Yes, and protection of the title so that people who go to college and spend their time, effort and money in qualifying are protected.

How do we get that legislation when the other groups did not turn up here today? As a committee, our hands are tied, unfortunately. We sent out the invitation,. It needs a power of attorney, really and truly. When they do not show up, how do we question them?

The VCI conducted a workforce review in 2024 which highlighted veterinary nurses as the number one concern that needed to be addressed. It set out clear action points that needed to be addressed. We were hoping we might get some clarity on whether those have been completed. To our knowledge, we have not seen much change on the points to which the VCI alluded as being ones it was addressing.

Depending on whether we have time, I want to get a few others in who have not yet spoken.

I thank the Cathaoirleach and I welcome the witnesses here today. I read the submission. It was very interesting. Obviously, retention is the main problem. Other issues raised have been dealt with, such as the number of unregistered, unqualified individuals who are carrying out the role of veterinary nurse without the requisite qualification. The witnesses have dealt with that point. It is a difficult one to solve. It may require legislative input so I do not want to go over that too much.

The association reports that 73% of veterinary nurses are afraid to approach the VCI with concerns and 39% have witnessed direct breaches of legislation. Is there a need for independent whistleblower-type mechanisms to be made immediately available? What would such mechanisms involve? Should the committee or the Minister be looking at or promoting that as a means to deal with this issue and protect nurses who expose malpractice? In any workforce, that level of hesitancy to approach the regulatory body is not conducive to a healthy or productive workplace. In addition, in the context of the nature of the work being carried out, if malpractice is exposed there is an animal welfare issue there as well. I would welcome the witnesses' thoughts on whether a mechanism should be put in place or what the existing mechanisms are. The report also indicates that any complaint made is public. There is no whistleblower-type structure.

Under the structure that is currently in place, if you witness something you can bring the concern there, but to move it forward and get any prosecution or investigation into it you need to sign your name as being the witness to it. There is a huge power imbalance in that because, at the end of the day, you are an employee and it could be a work colleague or an employer with whom you have the issue. It is not only nurses who are affected in this. We would like this across the board for vets, as they are in the same boat as us. We want a structure in place so that there is some protection available. If a nurse has to go up against their employer with a complaint and the process is not confidential, there are genuine concerns such as fear of retaliation, lack of anonymity and concern for one's reputation. Only 6% of these nurses felt that the VCI safeguarded their interests. That is an alarming number. Only 1% strongly agreed that it safeguards our interests.

I found that 6% figure particularly shocking. Is there a need for a completely independent regulatory body, separate from the VCI or specifically for veterinary nurses? How do the witnesses foresee this being resolved? The VCI workforce report from two years ago identified nursing retention and all these issues, yet after two years absolutely nothing has been done. I appreciate the witnesses are calling for action to be taken. From that point of view, is some kind of independent authority now needed? Would that only add another layer of bureaucracy? Should there be one independently for veterinary nurses? Again, two years after the VCI workforce report nothing has changed. Its own recommendations have not been put into place. Why do the witnesses consider that is the case? Why is it not putting these recommendations into action?

It is difficult for us to answer that because we do not have the VCI here. We do not know how agreeable it will be to the concerns we have and the need for change. Unless we have that interaction with the VCI, it is difficult for us to assess whether it is committed and able to provide the structures we need or whether we need an independent party involved in these concerns. Without having the VCI here and the benefit of its input today, it is difficult to make any definitive recommendations on that.

As it currently stands, the system is not working, for whatever reason. People do not feel comfortable reporting animal welfare issues or breaches of legislation. Also, the VCI carried out a public consultation in May 2025 where it came up with seven recommendations that needed to be carried out. Promotion of the veterinary nurse was one of them. That public consultation got responses from the public, who voiced concerns around inspections of veterinary clinics and how the VCI regulated them. In the context of some of the breaches that have been witnessed, the public had a concern that the practice inspections carried out by the VCI are announced. The practices are pre-warned, if you like. As early as May last year the public voiced concerns around the regulation there. Whether it is time for an independent body is hard for us to say.

At the moment it is not something the witnesses are calling for.

It depends on how receptive the VCI is regarding these concerns. It is very difficult for us to make that assessment now based on the fact that it has not attended today's proceedings. We would like to move forward in a solution-focused discussion. However, currently it is very difficult.

I share the frustrations on this. For over ten years we have had nine, ten or 11 different reports from different bodies in Ireland, all reporting the same issues. There is no new information from 2016 to 2026. The issues then are issues now. Mental health and burnout is becoming a stronger problem. It is, as Ms Fagan said, about getting solutions at this point rather than more paper telling us the problem are still the same.

In regard to the mental health issue, we could look towards the UK where the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, RCVS, has new changes in its accreditation processes for getting clinics regulated. It has suicide protocols and mental health protocols in place based on that. We would like something similar based on the huge increase we are seeing.

How many students per year qualify in Ireland as veterinary nurses?

There are 231 places available for veterinary nurses.

Where do those 231 go when they graduate from college?

Students do long placements and many of them get employment from that.

There is no problem with employment, is there?

There is, in that if we are seeing 231 come out of college but then seeing 124 leave, then long-term retention of experienced nurses-----

Where are they going, the 124?

Either leaving the register or leaving the profession completely or going into education.

Have the witnesses done any analysis of that?

We do not have access to that.

I have done some research into non-clinical nurses, such as veterinary nurses who have left clinic and gone into educational roles. They are leaving because the wages are higher and there are fewer hours. The average working week for a veterinary nurse is 39 hours whereas for a non-clinical nurses it is between 34 and 36 hours. There is more flexibility and greater benefits.

Four or five hours would not put you one way or the other, would it?

Sorry?

Ms Keane is saying the four or five hours of a difference is why they are leaving, is it?

It is 39 paid working hours. You could be looking at four or five additional hours a week of overtime on top of that, as a clinical nurse.

Is the VCI the overarching body for the veterinary nurses?

Yes.

Would turkeys vote for Christmas? If the Veterinary Council of Ireland is deciding everything, vets are probably going to be more important to them than veterinary nurses. Is that fair to say?

Which is what we are calling for. Currently we only have one nurse sitting on council.

Unless you have a separate body or something, you are not going to get change. That is the reality in Ireland. We need to call it straight. At the moment, a general nurse in health, can do so many different things, such as take bloods, give food through the veins, and so on. They are mighty. Have the veterinary nurses looked to do TB testing, for example?

There are some nurses who assess but we cannot-----

Can they do it or can they not? That is what I am asking.

Not in relation to TB, no. What nurses can do, it is the same thing, there is a lot of-----

A general nurse can take blood from a person or can do X, Y and Z.

We can do certain minor surgeries as well.

Are veterinary nurses qualified or did they put in submissions to look to be able to prescribe antiparasitics, legislation on which was discussed in the committee for a good while? Did the veterinary nurses look to be able to do that?

The legislation currently-----

The legislation was going on for a few years, we all were involved with it here. Did the nurses put in submissions that they could be allowed to prescribe?

No.

For example, in local places near us one time there was a person who was well used to it. In the North there was what they called a trained prescriber. Veterinary nurses would have a higher training even than that. How is it that this was not done? Did the organisation seek to negotiate that with the Department?

I think the oversight in it refers to veterinary professionals. I do not think it differentiates.

I know that, but this legislation was going on for a year or two to cover the responsible person. Did the veterinary nurses meet the Minister or the Department or try to see what extra help they could give? The way it has gone at the moment, whether we want to be nice about it or not, is that people have no choice but to go to a vet if they want to get a prescription. If the veterinary nurses did not put in a submission, how do they expect to be involved in the whole circus that goes on?

Legally, we could not prescribe, because that would be diagnosing.

I am on about the legislation.

The responsible persons legislation?

Yes.

They can only dispense, they cannot prescribe.

I know that. What I am asking is whether, under the new legislation when it was being looked at, something could have been got from Europe. Were there any submissions done to try to facilitate more people to be able to give a prescription? We were trying to do that here. We were looking for the responsible person. In fairness to veterinary nurses, they have gone to college for several years. They have qualifications behind them. I know they cannot go out and do a section or whatever but I know some veterinary nurses who would be well fit to do an awful lot of the job. The only thing about it is that they do not get the tick-box to be able to do it. I am wondering what engagement the organisation has had. The witnesses can come in here and say this, that and the other is not right. Have they met the Department and the Minister? Have they looked at different options in the way of giving out the medicines? Have they looked at options? Will the Department look to see if they could do TB testing, for example? That would take the pressure off. I heard Ms Keane referring to the west of Ireland, Leitrim, Roscommon, Mayo and Sligo. Some of them would operate on a dog or cat or whatever. They would do something on them. Is that what Ms Keane was referring to as a hospital setting? I do not think it is. In most of the veterinary practices, and in fairness we get a good service, they would have a lot of vets but I would not have seen many veterinary nurses. Why is that? Is it because a vet can cover everything but a veterinary nurse cannot?

It is generally a lack of knowledge on what the veterinary nurse can do. As Ms Fagan said earlier, we have approached the Veterinary Council of Ireland regarding a nurse practitioner. Similar to a human nurse practitioner, a nurse practitioner would be able to prescribe and dispense.

If the legislation does not allow veterinary nurses to prescribe, to do the TB test or pull a calf, what will they be? The veterinary nurse will have to ring the vet and ask what they should give. He will have to write a prescription and then the nurse can administer it, I presume. There is a lot of opportunity, if there was more engagement between the Department and the witnesses

We have about two minutes per person if we want to have another round.

The VCI in fairness does its job. It represents its people, the vets.

It is veterinary nurses also.

Unless we go for an overarching body to give the likes of the veterinary nurses something, or they engage with the Department, something needs to be done that way.

The representative bodies would not be the VCI. There is Veterinary Ireland, the Irish Equine Veterinary Association. They would be the representative bodies. The VCI is the regulatory body.

Who is in the VCI?

I need to move on.

Last question. Who is in the VCI? Is it all vets?

There will be another opportunity. Deputy Kenny is next.

One of the keys to all this is the whole area around salary and how people are recognised. I think it was Bill Clinton who said that money is not everything but it is up there with oxygen. It is a bit like that in this situation as well. We cannot get away from the reality that people are underpaid. I know two veterinary nurses and they are people who would have loved to have been a vet but it is so hard to get to be a vet in this country. There are so few places, it is so difficult. For those who go abroad to train, it is expensive. There are a lot of barriers in the way. One of the options they went for was to be a veterinary nurse, not realising that they were going to be so undervalued.

There was reference to a sectoral pay order. One of the things we have in place in this country under employment legislation is that there are sectoral pay orders for different groups, crafts and so on. Has there been any negotiation or work done in respect of that? It was said that very few veterinary nurses would be involved in a trade union but is there any work in respect of that?

Currently we have not advanced that to where we would like it. We were just getting the data to make sure we have a robust case when we do present it. We have our 2018, our 2023 and we have expanded our 2026 to cover a lot of those issues. When we do present that case, which we are hoping to do in the near future, we will have a strong case to present with data that upholds our claims.

Do the veterinary nurses expect resistance from the regulatory authority in respect of that?

With any change, I think you are going to expect resistance.

They do not want to pay them any more, or it is unlikely. That is basically what we are down to here. That is probably the reason they are not here today.

I will go back to where I started. We need another meeting. The VCI, the Department and whoever else need to be brought in.

I think I know the answer to this question. In smaller practices in particular, when people come in as veterinary nurses, is it nearly taken for granted that they will be receptionists as well?

There is definitely the overview that people have dual roles. That is an issue for nurses. They would feel-----

That is without remuneration or pay.

Exactly.

Many practices around the country have one single vet and one single nurse, and therefore, that nurse is the receptionist, the kennel assistant, the surgical nurse and the consulting nurse. They are doing multiple roles under one.

It needs regulation.

All the people I ever knew who did veterinary nursing had a passion for animals from a very young age. The problem is that it takes four years - three years, and then one more - but the opportunities are very slim after that. That is what I read into it, unless something changes. The witnesses have summed it up. There does not have to be a veterinary nurse in any clinic in the country at the moment - that is just the way it is. Someone can open a clinic without one. Reference was made to being allowed to do TB testing and carry out other practices, but that is not going to happen at the moment. The veterinary union is very strong, and it is not going to allow that, so there will be no move in that direction.

If anybody came to me after this discussion today and said they would like to be a veterinary nurse, I would ask them to look at what was said today at the Oireachtas committee on the opportunities out there. It is a pity because there is nothing as nice as people who are interested in animals. However, as far as I can see, there is not enough opportunity unless we change the whole lot. We have all seen it. Look at the pushback there was from the people who were supplying medicine to me and everybody else. They were never supplying injections, but you could get a bottle of this and a bottle of that. They would allow nobody to do that except vets. A qualified veterinary surgeon had to give the prescription. Now, when we walk into a vet's, it is behind a closed shutter. It is mind-boggling. It is nonsense. I am sorry to say that, but I will say publicly that it is nonsense from the people going out and doing it.

I get great service from my vet, and I have to say that. However, a lot of farmers are able to take a calf as good as a vet, and it is only for caesareans that vets have to be called out. It is not going to change. I find it hard to accept. The majority are doing the four-year course, and I would stand over that, but they are on the minimum wage. Pat McDonagh is giving more in Supermac's.

I cannot understand why the veterinary nurses do not have a union body. I think that is the only way they are ever going to get recognition. How many nurses are in Ireland at this time?

Over 1,200.

If there are over 1,200 nurses, they should have a union body for themselves. They should set up a body that has regular meetings to find out exactly where they stand. Once they have a body set up, they will have a voice with the Veterinary Council. At this moment in time, they are alone. I do not mean this in a disrespectful way, but they are fighting a lone cause individually rather than having a structure to say, "We are the representative body for the 1,200 people in this organisation." I think that is where the veterinary nurses will have to start. I do not know who is going to start it for them.

The IVNA is a long-founded organisation that has been in existence for over 20 years. We meet regularly. Lately, we have been meeting weekly in the run-up to this meeting. We do a huge amount. The only thing that is missing is the title of unionisation. We do the work and engage with all of the stakeholders. Tomorrow, we are sitting on the board for the new veterinary medicine course in Waterford. We do have representation, but structurally, it is about having the title of a union.

The title still matters. The Veterinary Council has seven vets on it while the nurses have one representative. They are never going to get fair play, and seven to one is not going to give them fair representation when the vets are representing their own practices, really and truly.

The correspondence with them says that has to come from Department recognition that this needs to change. From their perspective, it is not for the VCI.

I agree totally with Ms Fagan, but I think that is where the veterinary nurses need to start if they intend to drive this forward.

Ms Fagan said that the veterinary nurses are sitting tomorrow on the veterinary medicines board. They are sitting on a board, although they cannot prescribe anything.

No. It is the board for the new veterinary course at the college in Waterford. It is not the Veterinary Council.

What input will they have when sitting on the board if they do not have veterinary administrative powers?

It is an industry board. It is getting opinions from people across Ireland who are involved in the veterinary profession. It is to inform the new veterinary course.

Senator Boyhan and I have been talking about this. I think the veterinary nurses should go in and rebrand to veterinary technician, and put things like being able to test cattle and prescribe drugs into whatever course they do, and liaise with the colleges in that regard. While they would not be doing certain things that the vets do, it would give them recognition and status, as well as the backing of the Department on the animal medicines issue.

That is already in place. We have the protected title in legislation, and there are clear guidelines as to what nurses can and cannot do.

What they can and cannot do will not change unless they get a new title. At the moment, I can go in and do nearly the same as them, with no disrespect to them. I cannot prescribe a medicine, and a veterinary nurse cannot prescribe a medicine. I cannot operate on or put stuff into a dog, and they cannot do it. They need to have a status through the college and the Department. In my opinion, they need to liaise on the legal side in order to cover them to be able to do a lot of new things. That would take pressure off those vets who are out all night and day when cows are calving, because some of them are under pressure. Unless that happens, and unless there is an overarching body over the VCI, it will not give the veterinary nurses recognition.

To be frank, Senator Brady said it was seven to one, but I think it is nine to one on the council. With the best will in the world, if there are eight people from my parish and one from yours, I would say that more stuff will be coming to my parish. Do the witnesses understand me? I am being honest with them. It needs to be balanced. I believe the veterinary nurses should be able to do more and have more responsibilities. There is a lot out there, for example, the export of cattle. In France, a veterinary technician can do that, but here in Ireland, it is a closed shop. That is the problem. The vets dictate when they will come out or not come out to people. Why can we not be the same as all the other European countries? We should be able to do the same with regard to animal medicines.

To follow on from Deputy Fitzmaurice, I think it is worth looking at the international model of the veterinary technicians. We have heard this with regard to animal welfare issues. With no disrespect to the veterinary nurses, vets are on a lot more money than the nurses are on, and they are accompanying the live export of cattle to Libya, for example, and all over the place. In France, we see that these technicians also carry out very heavy veterinary practice. That is not to stereotype veterinary nurses as just dealing with the small animals, which they do, because some of them work with bigger animals also. However, there is a real shortage when it comes to getting vets to do large animal practice. That is the reality of it, and it is what I am told by veterinarians all over this country. Denmark is similar, and its veterinary technicians administer a certain amount of dosing, medications and so on. There is a threshold of accreditation for that.

At the end of the day, money is also an issue for a lot of people.

The Irish Veterinary Nurses Association should consider looking at the model of veterinary technicians. What I am saying should not be taken up the wrong way but there are a lot of people who like animals and like agriculture but do not go on to get a master's degree in agriculture from UCD or do not go on to be fully qualified veterinarians. They may have more empathy, more sympathy, more understanding and more practical knowledge than any vet or whatever. I am just saying there are different courses and pathways to working with animals, in agriculture, etc. In terms of veterinary practices, rather than practitioners, the association should look at that model because I think it works and that there is a demand. There is a requirement, of course, to have some expertise and that also applies to animal welfare because that has become a huge issue with the exporting of live animals, which is not going to stop. The association might look at that. I say well done. It is a great profession and the representatives here are amazing ambassadors for their profession.

I thank Senator Boyhan. I am conscious that a vote has been called in the Dáil and the time we have allocated for this session has been consumed at this stage. Are there any particular points the witnesses feel they wanted to raise or are there any unanswered questions? The witnesses are welcome to correspond with the committee anyway but are there are any particular points they would like to raise over the next minute or so?

In regard to the scope of the veterinary nurses, there is clear information on what a nurse can and cannot do. It is very similar to what a general nurse is. We do always engage with the VCI to try to broaden that scope. We have engaged with it, for example, on ultrasonography. We have asked the VCI if veterinary nurses can scan animals, obviously, without making the diagnostic decisions there and then. We are continually trying to improve the scope to effectively get a larger remuneration from it as well.

I thank the witnesses. I am very conscious they have taken time off their own paid employment to be here and participate today. I want to acknowledge that it is a voluntary organisation. I thank the witnesses for their input. There has been a wealth of information relayed over the past two hours. I thank the witnesses for their participation. We will be following up on this in a private meeting. We now bring this session to a conclusion. We will be back after the vote for our private session.