Apologies have been received from Senators Comyn and Mullen, and Deputy Gibney.

Today's meeting has been split into two sessions. The first is for consideration of the areas that fall outside the scope of arts funding and related matters. I welcome the following witnesses: Ms Liz Meaney, arts director of performing arts, and Ms Sinead O’Reilly, arts director of combined arts, Arts Council; Ms Ailish White, Campaign for Comedy; Ms Mary Newman, chairperson, Drama League of Ireland; Mr. Gerry Sweeney, national president, and Mr. Seamus Power, vice president, Association of Irish Musical Societies; and Mr. Liam Hannaway, honorary president, Amateur Drama Council of Ireland.

The format of this meeting is such that I will invite the witnesses to deliver an opening statement, which will be limited to three minutes. The statements will be followed by questions from members of the committee. The committee may publish the opening statements.

Before we move to today's discussion, I would like to clarify some limitations in relation to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege in respect of the presentations they make to this committee. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege, and it is my duty, as Chair, to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed by me to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite each organisation to make their opening statements.

I thank the committee for the invitation to participate in this discussion. I am joined by my colleague Sinead O’Reilly. I want to offer our director's apologies as he is unable to attend today.

The Arts Council is the national Government agency for funding, developing and promoting the arts in Ireland. Our role is to advocate, advise, invest and partner with others, to cultivate a vibrant arts community at the heart of Irish society. We believe that every person living in Ireland should have the opportunity to create, engage with, participate in and enjoy the arts and culture, regardless of who they are or where they live. People throughout the country are deeply engaged in creating art on a professional, voluntary and community basis. They enrich their communities, as performers or as audiences and also as participants. As art forms and arts practices develop, it is imperative the Arts Council continually reviews our work to support the arts in Ireland and responds accordingly to these developments.

Art, as the members know, is never static. It is always evolving and so must we, the Arts Council. We recently commissioned and published an independent research report, Research and Consultation on Art Forms and Arts Practices in Ireland, which is part of our equality, diversity and inclusion implementation plan. This followed extensive consultation and provides us with an important evidence base to support evolving arts practices.

Regarding the specific art forms being discussed today, the Arts Council has for some time funded the platforming of comedy through our support for arts centres, festivals, Culture Night and more recently through multidisciplinary art supports. Between 2023 and 2025, we supported 53 applications that included comedy and country music. The Arts Council will fund and support comedy and comedians in upcoming funding rounds. During 2025, we proactively reviewed our grant schemes and programmes for 2026 to achieve this. We have also procured external advisory support so that experts are assessing these applications. This advisory model is used by us across art forms to ensure policy is developed and applications are assessed by those expert in the practice in each area.

We recognise and deeply value the immense contribution the practice of amateur theatre and musicals play in the cultural life of people across the country. The Arts Council has funded the following groups in the past: the Drama League of Ireland, the Amateur Drama Council of Ireland and the Association of Irish Musical Societies. We met with them very recently to understand the needs of their groups, so that we can support and develop the practice into the future.

The arts play a central role in Irish life and in our identity as a country. The lived reality of making this work is here in this room today. The Arts Council does not make art; we support the conditions in which art is made. We look forward to working with local authorities, arts centres, Creative Ireland, Culture Ireland and all of the other agencies across the State that support the making of art to ensure that the arts continue to thrive and develop.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach, le Teachtaí Dála agus le comhaltaí an choiste as an seans labhairt inniu agus as an tacaíocht ar an gceist seo atá i lár thodhchaí ealaíontúil na hÉireann. Tá áthas agus bród orm a bheith anseo chun labhairt faoi choiméide agus na healaíona in Éirinn.

First, I sincerely thank Deputy Ó Snodaigh and his parliamentary officer, Eoghan Finn, for their dedication and support over the past three years with regard to comedy. Without their early backing, I can say with confidence that this issue might never have come to light and comedy could still be struggling to gain the recognition it deserves. Gabhaim míle buíochas leis. I also thank Deputy Brian Brennan for regularly engaging and meeting with me to hear more about the work I have been doing with regards to this space, and I also welcome the comments of the Minister, Deputy Patrick O’Donovan, comments in support of comedy since his appointment to the post of Minister for Culture, Communications and Sport. I am pleased that the Department has made every effort to include comedy in recent schemes, such as basic income for the arts, Ressearch Ireland, Creative Ireland and the night-time economy.

I am happy to report some developments in this space. In the interest of continued transparency, I am happy to report to the committee that I see an uptake in supports for comedy by the Arts Council and from my meeting this morning with Culture Ireland. This includes the agility award being open to comedians, as well as the announcement by the Arts Council and Culture Ireland that panels will include comedy advisors. It also includes the Arts Council's recent tender process for a comedy advisor, who has been subsequently appointed. I hope that comics can come home and see that their work really matters.

I thank the committee for this opportunity. I am the chairperson of the Drama League of Ireland, which is a national organisation founded and run by people involved in amateur theatre in all of the Thirty-two Counties. Our mission statement is “inspiring excellence in amateur theatre”. We are a registered charity with a history of good governance. We are a democratic organisation and every year at our AGM a new board is elected, composed of members or representatives from all over the country. Meetings are held throughout the year to ensure the efficient and transparent running of our organisation. Our roots are in local communities, both urban and rural, and we are a multigenerational movement which welcomes people of all backgrounds. We are the antidote to the loneliness epidemic, the nursery of theatre professionals, and indeed audiences, since many of our members have gone into the professional world as actors, directors, writers, technicians and designers. People who get their first taste of the magic of theatre in the local hall go on to become lifelong devotees of professional theatre.

For over 60 years, the DLI has supported and nurtured the aspirations and activities in the amateur theatre sector through education, training, advocacy and advisory services. The DLI is the national resource organisation, providing a wide range of services for approximately 500 local and community theatre groups, representing about 25,000 active participants. While overwhelmingly powered by volunteerism, we maintain an office at the Mill Theatre in Dundrum staffed by one paid employee. This office houses the DLI library, the largest library of one-act and full-length plays in Ireland, all available on loan to member groups. We also have an arrangement with Aberystwyth University which allows us access to its library of over 200,000 scripts. Membership of DLI also gives groups access to an excellent insurance scheme, play licensing, advice and information, a fortnightly e-zine and an annual yearbook.

Since 1966, we have held an annual summer school with highly regarded professional tutors from Ireland and abroad. This is attended by amateur practitioners from all over Ireland. The huge improvement in production standards over the years can largely be attributed to the summer school, which is enormously popular. Like most of our activities, and despite its scale, it is planned, organised and run by a volunteer director with the support of a small committee – a lengthy undertaking to organise accommodation, catering, tutors and ancillary services.

Along with our colleagues in the Amateur Drama Council of Ireland, ADCI, and in partnership with Druid Theatre Company and the Ramor Theatre, we run an annual playwriting competition. This has been running for ten years and is growing in popularity and quality every year. The most recent winner crossed over into the professional world when it was accepted for Scene and Heard 2026. Again, this competition is run by volunteers who work on it full-time for three months of the year.

We have a long and very transparent record of compliance with spending any grant income that we received over the years. We can show that all grants were used for the agreed purposes.

What are our challenges? While we are very busy and vibrant, we exist in a hand-to-mouth state financially. We will always be an amateur movement - proudly so - powered by volunteers, but we believe that the contribution we make to communities all over Ireland merits some real financial support. Our finances depend entirely on membership fees and some small level of income from licensing fees.

I thank the Cathaoirleach and the committee for the invitation. The Association of Irish Musical Societies, AIMS, is the umbrella body for amateur musical theatre across the island of Ireland, representing 138 societies. Each year, every one of those societies brings several full-scale productions to the stage, powered not by professionals but by communities. It takes over 100 volunteers per show - performers, stage crew, costume makers, hair and make-up teams, front-of-house staff and more. Alongside this, societies invest in professional directors, musical directors, choreographers, orchestras and technical teams. The impact goes far beyond the stage, however. These productions actively support local economies through the hire of venues, sets, costumes and the purchase of materials like timber, paint and equipment.

AIMS runs a national adjudication and awards scheme, culminating in an annual gathering of 1,400 people in Killarney each June, providing a significant boost to tourism and local business. We also run a choral festival in New Ross each May, bringing together dozens of choirs and hundreds of participants across a full weekend of performance and competition, again generating vital footfall for the town.

Our commitment to development is central to what we do. Each year, we host a residential summer school in Thurles for young people aged 16 to 18. Among its past participants is recent Oscar winner Jessie Buckley - a powerful example of the talent pipeline that begins in community arts.

In recent years, we have introduced a schools mentoring programme, which has proven highly successful. However, due to limited funding, we are forced to restrict access, despite growing demand. In addition, AIMS provides essential supports to its members, including insurance schemes, Garda vetting and child safeguarding policies, ensuring that participation in the arts remains safe, inclusive and accessible.

To begin to truly support and grow this sector, we believe musical theatre must be recognised as a stand-alone art form by the Arts Council. That recognition is a vital first step in unlocking meaningful and sustained investment. Quite simply, AIMS sustains a nationwide network of creativity, community and opportunity but to continue delivering and to expand access where it is most needed, we require increased financial support. We hope this committee will recognise the value of that investment, not just for the arts but for the communities we serve across the country.

I thank the Cathaoirleach for the invitation. The Amateur Drama Council of Ireland, ADCI, has been in existence for 74 years serving the amateur drama movement in Ireland. The aims of the ADCI are to foster, promote and encourage amateur drama in Ireland. This is done by facilitating drama festivals throughout the island and providing mentorship for amateur drama groups at festivals. It also encourages new and non-participating groups to get involved in the circuit and brings live theatre to audiences throughout Ireland. Many of these communities would not have easy access to theatre otherwise.

In 2024, the Minister at the time, Catherine Martin, announced that the State formally recognised the amateur dramatic tradition as part of Ireland’s living cultural heritage and included it on the national inventory of intangible cultural heritage. The ADCI is a 32-county voluntary movement with four provincial councils. It has a long history in fostering and encouraging cross-Border engagement and integration through the toughest years of the Troubles when drama groups travelled the length of Ireland to perform their plays. At the moment, the all-Ireland finals are being held in Carrickmore, County Tyrone, where groups from all over Ireland are attending.

The Amateur Drama Council of Ireland is the governing body of affiliated festivals. We have 50 affiliated festivals. They offer the unique experience to over 100 drama groups to perform all over the country, with the added bonus of getting a professional adjudication. Putting on stage activities in the autumn and winter months in communities is what sporting activities are in the summertime. These activities galvanise not just local communities but neighbouring communities, which support each other in creating a complex web of social and cultural interaction and networking that is unique to Irish society. In a recent survey the ADCI carried out, we identified 120,000 people who attended festivals across Ireland each year. Of those, 740 people were volunteers. The participants range in age from 10 years to 80 years; it embraces all age groups. The festival circuit is also a key contributor to local economies throughout the year, for example, local bars and restaurants.

The Amateur Drama Council of Ireland met with the Minister in 2019. Following that meeting, budget 2020 provided funding of €250,000 for amateur theatre, but that was discontinued from 2024. However, we are in consultation with the DLI and AIMS in discussing how the Arts Council can reintroduce funding for amateur drama.

The ADCI has a long history as part of the cultural fabric of the island, which was formally recognised by the State in 2024. It has provided quality drama to urban and rural communities, improving their well-being and tackling isolation and loneliness in the dark months of the year. It has also been instrumental in producing many of our professional actors, directors and technicians for the industry. We therefore urge the committee to lend its support in getting financial support for the amateur drama sector and restoring grant funding, as soon as possible, on a 32-county basis.

I thank all the witnesses for coming in. This is a really important session. Building on the momentum of the basic income for the arts, it is important to have these conversations. I am looking forward to the engagement. I am glad to hear Ms White has had some more positive engagement recently. That is really encouraging.

I will talk about musical societies. I am from Kilkenny. I was lucky enough to play clarinet in some musicals in my teenage years. It is easy to forget that we are not just providing entertainment for communities but are providing opportunities for young actors, musicians and all of that. It is important to point that out. Mr. Sweeney spoke about a "stand-alone art form" and the importance of that status for AIMS. Can AIMS explain what difference it would make if it had the stand-alone art form acknowledgement in terms of access to funding streams? What difference would it make?

I will respond to that. I am vice president of AIMS. We see ourselves as a stand-alone art form. We are not opera and we are not drama. We are somewhere in the middle. It is very simple, as I see it, that we are neither here nor there. We fall between two stools and because of that we find it difficult, and have found it very difficult, to achieve any kind of funding.

There is no ring-fenced funding for musical societies. That is the problem.

We see that as part of funding for the arts, funding would be ring-fenced for the arts. We would like musical theatre to be included in that. It is not at the moment.

Can I talk a little about the amateur status? I know that AIMS relies heavily on fundraising locally when it is putting on a show.

We have to.

Ticket sales alone are never going to cut it in a local production. I presume AIMS has professionals working, maybe not in hair and make-up because they might be volunteering their time, but in terms of a musical director, for example. I presume that person is paid. Fundraising has to be done locally to pay the professional arm of the production.

Yes. A huge bill is to be paid when you are doing a musical show. In a show I was recently involved with, it was €30,000. It can range from that all the way up to €100,000, depending on the production. One of the bigger costs in that would be the rights and paying people who own the rights outside of this jurisdiction in the UK or America. That could be €5,000, €6,000, €7,000, €8,000 or €10,000.

Is that something the Arts Council could ring-fence? Could the Arts Council help fund the rights and not necessarily the production? Is that something Mr. Power has looked at before?

I see a difficulty in that. A society will do different shows. They will have different costs. How we manage it is the problem I see-----

With different shows, is there a hierarchy in terms of how much they cost?

How would you decide that? Everybody wants to do the €100,000 show. You cannot do it. There are a lot of restrictions in that at the moment. There are some things where you can only do it if you have an audience capacity of more than 500 people.

I will ask one quick question because I am out of time. How many of the 138 musical societies, if any, are in debt?

The societies run their own budgets, to put it very bluntly. We do not help with them. At times, we had requests for help from societies that were in debt and had a big debt. We would help. We would help in fundraising. We help them out as best we can. We sing for our supper, basically. That is the best way of putting it.

Okay. I thank Mr. Power.

We do not have a number on that. I am sorry.

I commend the people in front of us and who they are representing on what they are doing for the social fabric of our towns and villages. Not every person in Gorey can play hurling or football for Wexford. It is about the opportunity to be on stage as a comedian, or in a drama or in musicals. I was reared through that whole system. It is just incredible. It evolves now to Jessie Buckley and Cillian Murphy. My previous life was in hospitality. The number of people who know Jessie Buckley in the world now, and the brand Ireland, is absolutely priceless. Jessie and Cillian had to start somewhere, no doubt in the organisations before us. That is what this is all about - supporting at the grassroots.

The key word that was used in all the presentations was "volunteers". That is sometimes completely understated. Well done. We are here to fight that corner.

In relation to the Arts Council, I welcome that it is evolving. How quickly is that happening? I have had conversations with it. I commend the work it is doing. Deputy Ó Snodaigh is sitting beside me. Across parties, we are on the one page. We want this. It is not only comedy. We want to outline this. Who dictates what art is? As it evolves, what is the Arts Council putting in place? I will start with Ms White. I do not need the names. Will Ms White confirm if people have already received funding under any scheme for comedy?

It is down to the timing. In December 2025, the Arts Council formally announced in a statement that it was going to include comedy in its funding. That is happening. The agility award has opened and has started accepting comedy to apply for it. I hope that continues into all the other schemes that the Arts Council provides for performing artists. I have seen positive change in this space. I saw a call for panellists for comedy to review comedy applications. I saw that there was also a tender for a comedy adviser and assessor. There is engagement there. I am regularly in touch with members of the Arts Council. I also was in touch with members of Culture Ireland this morning. It is saying that, potentially from August, it is going to include comedy in its funding structures. It has also announced a panel call-out for comedy to assess comedy applications.

It is about timing. I do not know when the agility award closes, but I hope to see progress in that space. I understand that these schemes are oversubscribed. They are all based on merit. I hope to see the first comedian funded.

As of this morning, there has been no funding granted.

Not to my knowledge.

It is work in progress.

Yes.

My next question covers all of the witnesses. What needs to be considered to be stand-alone in the Arts Council?

Currently, the Arts Act names a certain number of art forms. In fact, there are very many art forms and practices that we support largely and continually that are not named in Arts Act. There are festivals, local arts, public arts, multidisciplinary arts, comedy, participatory arts, street performance-----

I ask Ms Meaney to answer the question.

There is no need for things to be named within the Act for us to support them.

Why were they not supported before then? That is why they were named because none of these people were supported on an individual basis.

We have supported some of the groups here today, as recently as 2023. We are constantly evolving and looking at our supports. We continually have the conversations that we have been having with Ms White and the other groups present. We are in the progress of reviewing our theatre work. In our music policy, we are specifically focusing on musical theatre. These are all work that is ongoing.

So, the plan is not to name them. The Arts Council prefers not to name who can qualify.

It allows us the flexibility to respond as arts evolves and develops. That is what we have done. Many of the local festivals that are supported around the country - over 200 festivals are supported - are not named in the Arts Act. Nonetheless, the Arts Council supports them.

I am talking about the individuals themselves.

We also support individual makers in all the various art forms and practices, including those that are named and are not named in the Arts Act.

Gabhaim buíochas leis na finnéithe. Tá brón orm nach raibh mé anseo níos luaithe. Bhí mé amuigh ag cur fáilte roimh Lelia Doolan, atá tar éis siúl an bealach ar fad ón tSionainn. I apologise, as I was not here when the presentations took place.

In some ways, it is great that we are having this conversation. To follow on from the previous bit of the conversation, it was probably a mistake in the Arts Act to be specific. That is where some of the problems lie because once you specify something, you will leave something out. Once you identify that something is left out, though, then it needs to be open. We should be more welcoming of art forms that are not noticed and be specific by saying that applications will be welcomed in a lot more of an open way. Art will develop. I grew up with artists left, right and centre. I do not have art - no music, no dance, no nothing. It is all in my head and not getting it.

I wish all the witnesses well. The key change is that, in the future, the Arts Council and the arts Minister - it is not just the Arts Council - will accept that art is fluid. There are art forms that have been there - the groups are here - such as amateur drama, musical societies and comedy. They have been there for years. I do not know why they were not identified. There are new art forms based around the digital world, though.

What are the other barriers? People are looking at Ireland saying that Ireland is great. Go up to the North and ask people there about the funding of arts, though. In England, the funding of arts is struggling. What barriers are there other than the lack of identification or acceptance by the Arts Council of how the groups that made the presentations are making art? Rights was mentioned as one. There is also insurance and venues. What are the other ones? Part of our job is trying to support artists. We have to identify other problems and issues that need to be addressed. Those questions are open to whoever wishes to jump in.

I will briefly answer, although my colleagues may wish to join.

We have recently undertaken research as part of our equality, diversity and inclusion work that has looked at identifying barriers. Some of those barriers are to do with definitions being too tight around art forms and practices. We particularly find that for early career artists. It is about the loosening of those definitions and allowing artists to self-define. It is also about making our application processes more straightforward, simpler and more plain English and having supports in place for access for people who require access supports or other critical things.

However, I acknowledge the hugely important work that the organisations here have done regarding safeguarding, insurance and Garda vetting. Those are huge barriers and challenges. To have the support of that by these organisations for individual groups and communities provides safety and support for people in their communities across the country.

That by itself is bureaucratic. If it is bureaucratic, it means it takes time. If it takes time to fill out forms and do all of that, it means that it is time away from the art form and it is costly on groups if they have to bring somebody in. Is that extra burden recognised?

Yes. We recognise that those organisational supports are hugely important. They require skills, expertise and experience to guide their way through those processes. We acknowledge that.

First, I will pick up from a festival point of view. Regarding running a festival and groups coming in, a lot of festivals happen in community facilities that are not, per se, theatres. They are community centres during the day or other times of the year and then become theatres. As drama and musicals develop, the level of technical requirements increases. The Deputy asked what was required. Capital support is needed to carry out those developments.

Second, one of the big issues is technical support, for example, lighting, sound and that whole aspect of it. There is training and support from us. We in the Amateur Council of Ireland work with the Drama League of Ireland where it has workshops. Again, there needs to be more funding for bringing on technical support to develop that.

Third, there is the whole ancillary part of it in terms of adjudicators. We rely on payment at the door to run festivals. If the numbers are not up, the organiser has to pay for the fees and rights for the groups that come to perform. It has to provide insurance, adjudicators' fees, lighting and other technical aspects. That is the support that is required to make these things happen.

I hope members will excuse that I had to go to the Chamber. I am obviously delighted that all of the groups are here today. I am particularly delighted about the recognition of comedy but for a long time, as colleagues know, I have been looking and campaigning on behalf of amateur drama and musicals in Ireland. Reference was made to the ADCI All-Ireland Confined Drama Finals happening at the moment. Gorey and Tinahely from my own area are taking part and, indeed, four of the nine groups taking part in the RTÉ all-Ireland drama festival in Athlone come from County Wexford. Over the Easter break, I had the privilege of seeing Gorey Musical Society's production of The Hunchback of Notre Dame, Avonmore Musical Society's The Clockmaker's Daughter, and Enniscorthy Musical Society's Chess. I mention all these groups and productions as, when you think about the combined audiences that were at all of those productions, and the people on stage, backstage and behind the scenes - in the production in Gorey there were over 100 people in the production alone - the joy it brings to the community is clear. However, when you combine those numbers, you are talking about filling the likes of Croke Park and the Aviva Stadium, and we do not think about that. That role of it engaging people in the arts is crucial. I welcome the real engagement that is happening on the part of the Arts Council. I welcome the fact that engagement with the Minister, Deputy Patrick O'Donovan, has been very positive and encouraging in all of these areas and when the Minister of State, Deputy McConalogue, and officials from the Department were before the committee for the estimates process recently it was incredibly positive that we were seeing moves. I want to see schemes put in place that will support the general administration at a national level for these organisations but also particularly the developmental work to be able to develop and grow. It will grow the artists and the groups, but also grow the engagements with professional theatre. I am conscious Jessie Buckley was mentioned. We can start going through the list with Paul Mescal and everyone else. I have had the privilege of being on stage in Gorey with many people who ended up pursuing professional careers. As a base, it has been incredibly important. I will put a question to the Arts Council in a moment.

The other thing to say is that the arts capital piece is critical. I ask that the committee hold a specific session on the arts capital scheme. I know we have been talking about this. There is an arts capital scheme coming. The €6 million being proposed for the pilot this year will not be adequate in terms of the demand that is there but it will be crucial. As this is where we are moving to, if we want to jump, say, two years ahead, how does the Arts Council see the funding mechanisms working in real terms? How will the groups that I have been talking about see the benefit at national level and support for their work?

The Deputy is right in identifying developmental supports as being critical and the work these organisations do in the developmental area is critical. These conversations are happening already. It is about identifying those areas of development which are most in need of support through those national agencies and actually resulting in support being given. Of course, we need to accept applications, assess them and go to the other side of that. We are an agency that has to be transparent and tied into the rigour of applications because this is public money, but that is where I would see this ending in two years' time, as the Deputy says. Also-----

I hope it will be sooner but-----

Exactly. Also, that we do not have organisations which face funding shock in order that there is a continuity there as well. We are in the process of developing a new strategy and also new investment programmes so they will be part of those conversations.

Would it be fair to say that we will see a scheme in place for 2027?

It is certainly something we are working towards. Whether or not it will be specific to this group or to have the conversations about which scheme is best suited-----

Will there be an open scheme for the organisations? In other words, there will be a mechanism through which-----

Yes. It is also important to note that local authorities across the country also support organisations at a local level.

They do but it is not consistent. That is part of the problem. However, at national level it is crucial. Is it fair to say there will be some kind of a scheme in place for 2027, if not sooner?

We will be having conversations about it. It may not be a specific scheme; it may be which of the schemes is best suited for it.

There will be a mechanism.

Yes, there will be a mechanism.

Okay. That is new information.

I, too, am running between committees but I read the witness statements. Again, I welcome the support there for comedy. It is starting to emerge and there is the Culture Ireland approach. My home town of Kilkenny is home to the Cat Laughs festival and I knew Richard Cook in his early days. We talk about local government support. It is something that is on the decline. Something specific needs to be done there in the local government sector and funding for the arts more generally.

Separately, I have been involved in music festivals in Kilkenny and, for the past 15 years, as a director of Barnstorm Theatre Company. While it is a professional theatre company, we also have an amateur drama element to it through the Barn Owl players and we also provide a very good services with the Play Live! curriculum which we put on every year for secondary schools. Unfortunately, we have had to cancel this from next year on. I welcome the commitment to look at the theatre sector more generally. There is a real challenge in the theatre sector. We have been feeling it with our funding from the Arts Council, which has either remained static or has been declining over the last decade and it is really hampering our ability to put on productions. I would welcome commentary in relation to what the Arts Council sees as the vision for not just amateur drama but also companies like Barnstorm which put on original plays for theatre-frame audiences very specifically.

I absolutely acknowledge the challenge the theatre sector has faced in the past and continues to face. It is one of the most attended of the arts forms. We are actively in consultation with the theatre sector in bringing together a vision for how we can support and develop the sector. It is one of our most important art forms. It is one of the art forms upon which our reputation nationally and internationally is based. We have extraordinary playwrights and directors in the country of whom we are rightly proud, but we do need to ensure work can be made and seen in locations across the country. We have had surveys and meetings. We have had a survey with over 250 inputs and responses from across the sector. I think we have had in excess of 15 different meetings both online individually and in locations in person across the country. We have an external and internal advisory group supporting us on this. We are very focused on this and on ensuring that theatre continues to be the absolute best that it can be in Ireland and that we work to ensure that both nationally and internationally.

I thank Ms Meaney. Separately, I think of Irish National Opera, again supported through the Arts Council, which is also stuck in a bind. It has purchased a building on Abbey Street. The Wexford opera house notwithstanding, Dublin is one of the few capital cities in Europe without a national opera house and we have been liaising with our Councillor Janet Horner in relation to this. Specifically, that bind means Irish National Opera has a building but does not have the capital funding to restore it. There are lots of funding mechanisms out there, such as through the thrive scheme in the Department of housing. Is a project like this something the Arts Council could see itself supporting? I know it is a large capital build but we can look at the work that has been done around Na Píobairí Uilleann, perhaps the Department directly funding it or funding it as a national institutions. It is really important from a cultural spaces point of view, which we have had a lot of debate about in Dublin in particular. It is vital that projects like this are given support.

The Arts Council does not have capital funding but I applaud the work Irish National Opera has done in privately raising money for that purchase. The Department has the scheme but more capital funding is required to develop spaces. We can see artists across the country who do not have their own work spaces or collective work spaces for the performing arts. They are vital. Irish National Opera's ambition is to visit 32 counties in the course of two years. That is extraordinary access.

It is, yes.

It is extraordinary. We are very proud to support Irish National Opera and we laud its ambition and ability to deliver projects of that type.

This was a session we all wanted for some time. Lots of different people have asked for it because we are in one step with the Minister and the Department that there needs to be a significant amount of change as regards how funding is allocated to specific areas. Deputy Ó Snodaigh was completely correct. When you are very prescriptive with funding, initially it restricts people and later on it leaves people out.

Art by its very nature goes in all directions. It is very important. Seeing as everyone else did their local thing, Daryl McCormack is from Nenagh and we claim him. I knew him when he was very young. My wife, Regina, is appearing, last week and this week, in a play called Out of Order. She is playing, ironically enough, the secretary to the leader of the Labour Party.

Does the Cathaoirleach want to share how the play ends?

No. I was dreading that Deputy Byrne would know about the details of it.

I do, yes.

It would probably be played on social media if we spoke any more about it. It is Killoran Drama Group and it does great work. My son is in Nenagh Youth Theatre with Calvin Magee and to say it is life-changing, it is incredible. The work they do is incredible. It is absolutely amazing stuff. Senan is far more into drama than sports and they are his tribe. They do incredible work.

Personally, as Deputy Malcolm Byrne pointed out when I first was appointed as Chair, I come from an amateur drama background so it was probably good training for later in life. I did a lot of different productions with Margaret Walshe in Nenagh but the novelty acts in Scór was where my brother and I learned my actions skills, and my mother. I recall the number of productions and people involved and the amount of art and legacy in Portroe, Nenagh, where we come from. I am a huge supporter of one of the best choral societies in Ireland, which is the Nenagh Choral Society. It has won a number of awards with Association of Irish Musical Societies, AIMS. I helped it to get funding and to secure its own premises called the Scouts Hall. It was one of the best things I ever did in my political career in Nenagh. It is an amazing building; a building I was half-reared in. To see all of these groups, the work they do, their capacity, their infiltration in local communities and the way in which they bring people together is amazing. Collectively, we as a committee, working with the Department, will be making some suggestions as regards how funding can be done into the future. Some people are very strong on the comedy side, some people are very strong on the drama or the musicals but collectively, in respect of all of them, I have a question for the Arts Council. Deputy Malcolm Byrne asked previously about 2027. Will it definitely be in 2027? Ms Meaney said one scheme rather than specific schemes so can she give some more information on that?

What I meant, and apologies if I was unclear Cathaoirleach, is for the Arts Council to identify which of our schemes is the most appropriate for organisations to apply to for support.

Can the Arts Council not just create a new scheme?

Indeed, we are in the process of developing a new suite of schemes so it may well be under one of those schemes as part of our new strategy.

That would be good because, the capital side is separate thing. The Arts Council does not do capital in funding, in fairness. I think €6 million or €6.5 million has been shelled out now. Sorry, but that is only Mickey Mouse money in comparison with what will be required because as productions go on in the modern age, the costs are just going up. Also, it distributes money across the country to lots of people who are working as small-time engineers, in light production and all of that sort of stuff. It is money that is just going back into the local economy and being distributed. The more, the merrier, as regards the amount of funding. I applaud the Minister for supporting the idea of doing the capital schemes, I think we all do, we need to just turn up the volume on it.

I have one question that relates to the two drama groups present. For those watching, what is the differential between them?

We are very good colleagues and we get on very well but the Drama League of Ireland focuses on the education side of things, licensing plays and providing library services; and the Amateur Drama Council of Ireland focuses on the festival side of things. We complement each other. We have a joint committee, informally known as the "six and six", where six members of our board and six members of Mr. Hannaway's board have a separate organisation where we collaborate.

Would the drama organisations think of coming together?

There would probably be a conflict of interest because the Amateur Drama Council of Ireland runs the festivals for groups to participate in. In terms of running the festivals, I am part of a drama group as well as part of a festival so we run in conjunction with each other but there could be a slight conflict of interest in terms of festival results and stuff like that.

The drama groups are great friends anyway.

We are the best of friends.

Yes, as Ms Newman said, we work hand in glove in terms of a lot of stuff. The scholarship comes out of each of the festivals for some of the young actors to go to the summer school the DLI runs. It is tied in together.

I have one last question in relation to the scheme put forward by the Arts Council. I think the scheme will be great but one thing that sometimes needs to be weighted into any scheme is geographical coverage. I am sure that will be a component but from an observational point of view that is important.

The Arts Council has a spatial policy and that is something we integrate into consideration of the supply across the country. The wok is extraordinary but it is something we do look at. It is also particularly acute in both amateur-voluntary and professional theatre. The making of work in local communities is hugely important.

We have a split session today so we have a second group of witnesses coming in so I would like each group, if they want one minute, to say something to the committee. I will start with Mr. Hannaway and go the opposite way.

First, I thank the committee for this opportunity. I will re-emphasise the point, coming from the North, that the Amateur Drama Council of Ireland is a 32-county organisation and perhaps there may be something in the shared island initiative in the future in terms of funding. The all-Ireland finals are held in Carrickmore which is in the North and groups from the South come to it. It has been on the go for over 70 years, and through the Troubles. I think something in the shared island initiative would be useful.

Go raibh míle maith agaibh. I thank the committee very much for the invitation to be here. It was quite a privilege for me to be here. I would like to add to what the representatives of the two drama groups said. In AIMS, all of our members are members of each other's organisations. We all work closely together, not just the two drama groups. All of our members who partake in drama come across to us for musicals. It is a big share; it is a big pool. We work on a 32-county basis.

I see a lot of overlap in my own area, I know that.

Yes and we work on a 32-county basis as well and we work very closely with our sister organisation in the UK called the National Operatic and Dramatic Association, NODA, as well.

I thank the committee again for the opportunity. First, I acknowledge Deputy Malcolm Byrne because he is a tireless supporter.

He is. He is on stage himself so often.

He is genuine and consistent.

He is still on stage.

We do appreciate it. I hear figures being tossed around here. In terms of the DLI, and what we require, what we need, first of all we need consistency and to avoid that funding shock Ms Meaney mentioned. Also, what we need in the scheme of things is really very little. It does not amount to a lot in terms of the figures mentioned but it would make all of the difference to us. We can offer the infrastructure to use the funds and account for the way they are used in a very transparent and honest way. Whatever consistent help we can get would be so appreciated and so valued.

I thank the committee again for the invitation and also thanks to everyone here for the engagement in regard to comedy. Going back to Deputy Ó Snodaigh's point about barriers to entry, capital infrastructure is a massive barrier. The Complex closed in 2025. There is also a derelict theatre under Busáras. Arklow does not have a theatre group. Whereas there are multiple GAA pitches in every county in Ireland, I really wish the arts had the same infrastructure as sports in this country, in terms of capital infrastructure.

That is a very good point; that is what we are trying to do.

I thank everybody and the Deputies and Senators in the room for all of the engagement. I thank the Cathaoirleach. In 2025, the Arts Council received requests to the value of €240 million. Our budget is €140 million. We received 6,600 requests and we could fund 1,800 of the applications we received. Our demand far exceeds our supply. We absolutely need to identify the avenues and development lines of support. We are a country that is rightly proud of the arts. It is at the heart of our nation.

We also need to support it. As we work in collaboration with the Department and local authorities, it is that panoply of supports across the country that is important in sustaining the arts.

Before we suspend, I thank you all for coming here. I appreciate it. I wish we could have had more time but we have a split session today. With the committee's agreement we will publish the opening statements. Is that agreed? Agreed. We will now suspend for a few minutes to allow the witnesses to leave and the other witnesses to come in.