Apologies have been received from Deputy O'Meara. The joint committee is meeting today for a briefing on key issues and priorities for Civil Defence and the Office of Emergency Planning with officials from the Office of Emergency Planning and the Civil Defence branch of the Department of Defence. On behalf of the committee, I welcome: Mr. Kealan McMoreland, principal officer, Ms Aisling McQuaid, assistant principal officer, and Mr. Graeme Towell, assistant principal, from the Office of Emergency Planning, OEP; and Ms Cep Carty, principal officer, and Mr. Paul Brophy, assistant principal, from the Civil Defence.

The format of the meeting is that I will invite Mr. McMoreland to make an opening statement on behalf of the Office of Emergency Planning, followed by Ms Carty on behalf of the Civil Defence. This will be followed by questions from members of the committee. Each member has a seven-minute slot to ask questions and for the witnesses to respond.

I advise members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any members participating via Microsoft Teams that prior to making their contribution, they formally confirm that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

Both members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

As the witnesses will probably be aware, the committee will publish their opening statements on the website following the meeting. I invite Mr. McMoreland to deliver the opening statement on behalf of the Office of Emergency Planning. He will be followed by Ms Carty on behalf of the Civil Defence.

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for the chance to speak with them about the work of the Office of Emergency Planning. I am the principal officer with responsibility for the office. Joining me today are my colleagues Aisling McQuaid and Graeme Towell. Ms McQuaid has responsibility for strategic emergency management policy, while Mr. Towell oversees the implementation of the critical entities resilience regulations.

This is a unique opportunity for me to explain the State’s current policy framework for managing national emergencies, to explain the new critical entities resilience, CER, regulations, and to highlight ongoing work to strengthen both institutional preparedness and public awareness. The Office of Emergency Planning, which is a civil-military branch of the Department of Defence, has an explicit mandate from the Government to: support the Minister for Defence as chair of the Government task force on emergency planning; manage and operate the National Emergency Coordination Centre, NECC; provide training and education relating to emergency management; improve and co-ordinate emergency planning; and prepare the National Risk Assessment Ireland, NRAI.

The OEP and the Government task force on emergency planning were both established in 2001 following the tragic events in New York that September. The publication of the Strategic Emergency Management – National Structures and Framework 2017 provided the definitive policy framework for strategic-level emergency co-ordination in Ireland. The Government task force is the top-level structure for strategic emergency management in Ireland. Chaired by the Tánaiste and Minister for Defence, the Government task force gives policy direction and provides oversight for the emergency planning activities of all Departments and public authorities. Ireland’s strategic emergency management, SEM, framework provides the structure for managing major emergencies that require national level co-ordination, ensuring that the Government can act in a consistent and co-ordinated way, irrespective of the crisis.

Under strategic emergency management, the relevant lead Department co-ordinates the national response through the national emergency co-ordination group, supported by other Departments and agencies. The framework promotes a whole-of-government approach built around the five phases of emergency management: risk assessment; risk management; planning and preparedness; response; and recovery.

In 2025, the Department of Defence, through the Office of Emergency Planning, secured European funding to deliver a comprehensive review of the strategic emergency planning framework. This project commenced in June 2025 and is expected to report to the Tánaiste and Minister for Defence in December. An expert team of disaster risk management specialists from the World Bank is conducting the work under the management of the OEP. This review represents the most fundamental re-examination of Ireland’s strategic emergency management system since the establishment of the office and the Government task force. It will assess national co-ordination mechanisms, governance structures, and inter-agency communication processes to ensure that the SEM framework remains modern, agile, and fit for purpose in a rapidly changing risk environment.

The EU critical entities resilience directive, transposed into Irish law in the form of the critical entities resilience regulations in 2024, introduces new EU-wide obligations to strengthen the resilience of operators providing essential services in Ireland. It applies to sectors such as energy, transport, water, digital infrastructure, health and others that are vital to society and the economy. The directive requires member states to: designate competent authorities; prepare a national strategy for the resilience of critical entities; conduct a national risk assessment; and require identified critical entities to assess their vulnerabilities, enhance their resilience and report major incidents. The purpose is to ensure that essential services continue to function during and after disruptive events, whether caused by natural hazards, technical failure, or malicious activity. While strategic emergency management provides the national co-ordination framework for crises response, the critical entities resilience regulation focuses on resilience within the critical infrastructure sectors themselves. It represents a significant step forward in how Ireland and our European partners approach systemic resilience.

Preparedness does not rest solely with the Government. Resilience begins with us individually, in our homes, communities, and workplaces. Ireland has seen the value of public awareness campaigns such as Be Winter - Be Summer Ready, which, for many years, has helped the people of Ireland to prepare for seasonal hazards. Building on that success, the Government is developing a broader, all-hazards public preparedness initiative. This refocused campaign aims to build a stronger culture of preparedness. A well-informed and engaged public is a crucial component of national resilience, reducing the pressure on emergency services and enabling communities to recover more quickly after disruptions.

Ireland’s emergency management system has significantly evolved since the establishment of the Office of Emergency Planning and the Government task force in 2001. The publication of the SEM policy in 2017 brought structure and consistency to our system. Now, the strategic emergency management review will mark another important advancement in the development of strategic emergency management in Ireland.

Alongside this, the critical entity resilience regulations strengthen resilience in essential sectors while the new campaign, to be launched shortly, will extend preparedness to every individual, household and community in Ireland. Together, these initiatives demonstrate that Ireland’s approach to emergency management is becoming more forward-looking, evidence-based, and inclusive, ensuring that when the next national challenge arises, the State and society are ready to respond together.

I thank the committee and I look forward to members' questions. I will hand over now to my colleague and head of the Civil Defence branch Ms Cep Carty.

Good morning Chair and members of the committee. I thank the committee for inviting us today to provide members with an update on the key issues and priorities for Civil Defence. I am accompanied today by my colleague Paul Brophy. I am the principal officer with responsibility for Civil Defence strategy and planning. Mr. Brophy is an assistant principal with responsibility for technical communications and training administration.

For context, I will briefly set out the background to the Civil Defence organisation and its operating framework. Civil Defence has operated in Ireland since 1950. We are this year celebrating our 75th anniversary of operations and just last weekend completed the third of three events to recognise the commitment of our volunteers and their families during that time. There are currently 1,920 volunteers and probationary volunteers across 28 Civil Defence units in Ireland .

Civil Defence in Ireland is governed by the Civil Defence Act 2023. Under this Act, the Department of Defence provides policy direction, funding, central procurement and centralised training. The local authorities have responsibility for the establishment of a local Civil Defence unit, providing appropriate accommodation for that unit and operational control. Most units now employ two full-time officers to manage the unit and to ensure that cover is in place for timely response.

Towards 2030, which was published in 2020, sets out a ten-year plan for Civil Defence and provides the current policy direction for the organisation in specifying its core services. These are: emergency response in accordance with local and national major emergency plans; search and rescue, using all the facilities available to us including canine units, boats, sonar, drones, mapping software and modern communications vehicles for organised searches; medical response; community assistance such as supporting community events, sporting, charitable and fundraising, etc., and a radiation monitoring service, in co-operation with the Environmental Protection Agency.

The Civil Defence role, in relation to the emergency response element of the role, is set out in a number of national policy documents, specifically: A Framework for Major Emergency Management - 2005, and The Strategic Emergency Management: National Structures and Framework 2017. These frameworks are undergoing review and my team and I are engaging with Mr. McMoreland on this review. This is one of the key priorities for Civil Defence at this time, that we are clear about the capacity and capability of the organisation, and that all parties clearly understand where Civil Defence can provide assistance to best effect. In this regard, and in support of the Towards 2030 strategy, the Civil Defence branch engages very closely with other key stakeholders, including the principal response agencies, County and City Management Association and Irish Coast Guard, together with the Department of Transport.

In parallel with the updating of the emergency management frameworks, we will work with our key stakeholders to update or put in place new memorandums of understanding. These are important to capture and ensure absolute clarity about the agreed support from Civil Defence in the event of an emergency. Of course, Civil Defence does not just operate in emergencies. On a week-to-week basis, the units are engaged in a range of activities in support of their local communities at sporting and community events across the country. These activities are important to both the community, which might otherwise be unable to run the events, and to Civil Defence, which can gain experience that will be invaluable in the event of an emergency. Civil Defence is also an important responder in the increasingly regular requirement for missing person search response.

Our competence in the use of all of the capabilities that I mentioned earlier, and our on-foot response, sees us activated somewhere in the country on an almost weekly basis.

Across all of these activities, to date in 2025, the organisation has completed almost 3,000 events or responses, representing more than 80,000 volunteer hours, often in very poor weather conditions and at antisocial times of the day. I thank our volunteers most sincerely for their ongoing commitment to their local communities.

In support of these activities, and in the context of the focus of today’s meeting, both this Department and the local Civil Defence units are engaged in a programme of ongoing training, both central and local, to constantly enhance both our capability and our capacity. In this regard, the past year has seen us develop new boat training for both emergency and search response, new pump training and swiftwater flood response instructor re-certification to support the local authorities in this area, new catering and rest or evacuation centre training to enhance the capability to respond to severe weather events, and significant engagement in interagency technical communications. We have also enhanced our medical response capability with some units now operating to paramedic level. In parallel with these activities, we have secured increases in our voted budgets year-on-year, and availed of dormant accounts funding, to enable the upgrading of our fleet and equipment, much of which is now procured centrally to ensure common equipment and enhanced interoperability between units.

The programme for Government contains two key elements that are relevant to Civil Defence. The first is to "Implement the ‘Civil Defence – Towards 2030’ policy, including delivery of a new centralised volunteer and equipment management system." I have spoken to most of this priority within this opening address but specifically with regard to the volunteer and equipment management system, I can confirm that this is now in place. This system not only assists in the management of volunteers, their training status and the management of duties, it also provides real-time point-in-time information on Civil Defence data, including the fleet, equipment, stock, volunteer numbers and duties undertaken or planned.

The programme for Government also sets out, as a key priority, the need to prepare for climate adaptation and extreme weather. While this priority, in government, is largely focused on adaptation measures to manage the impacts of extreme weather, there is a role here for Civil Defence and other response agencies in assisting communities in the response and recovery phase.

As we look forward for Civil Defence, each local authority is required to submit a multi-annual plan for their unit, and this process is now ongoing for 2026-27. A key focus of this process must be to ensure that every local authority has appropriate accommodation for their Civil Defence unit, which is important to attract and retain volunteers, to accommodate training, and to securely store the fleet and equipment required by each unit.

Finally, as we move towards winter 2025-26, a key focus is on the induction of new volunteers, with a view to a gradual increase towards 3,500 volunteers. This is a challenging target and, in addition to local unit advertising, the Tánaiste recently launched a Civil Defence recruitment campaign, involving a nationwide social media and radio advertising campaign. The campaign had two aims. The first was to raise the profile of Civil Defence and to publicise the breadth of activities in which we are involved. The second was to encourage different demographics to engage. In parallel with this campaign, we are developing a volunteer charter and induction plan, which should be the baseline plan for all units as we go forward, to ensure a consistent experience for the volunteers across the country. The provision of appropriate accommodation within each local authority will obviously be a key component in achieving this priority. Volunteering is a challenging space and there are many organisations competing for the same volunteers. We must ensure that we have something to offer the volunteer in order to attract them to the organisation. I thank members for their time and welcome their questions.

Go raibh maith agaibh. I will open the debate to members and I have two on my list so far. The first is Senator Gerard Craughwell who will be followed by Deputy Brian Stanley and any others could indicate.

I thank the witnesses who have come in here today. Normally, I have a list of things that I want to complain about when I meet witnesses coming before this committee but I have to compliment both the Office of Emergency Planning and Civil Defence on the work they do. If I may, I will single out Civil Defence as a former member myself and, indeed, a manpack qualified member. I used to train drill teams for the Civil Defence in Galway back in the day. I do not know how the Civil Defence managed to survive the ravages of the cutbacks that took place but the Civil Defence is an incredible organisation in terms of the work it does and the breadth of recruiting it can take. Unlike the Reserve Defence Force, Civil Defence can take people outside the age brackets and is not restricted to the same age limits. Congratulations on 75 years. I think my father before me was also Civil Defence so that is going back nearly 100 years.

I am concerned about the number of times Civil Defence can be called out for a search and rescue operation, at which they are extremely good. Do we need to legislate for labour law to protect Civil Defence volunteers who are called out and unable to attend work for a period? If Civil Defence has a rogue volunteer, that is, somebody who steps outside the agreed procedures, does the organisation have a disciplinary code in place that is robust and will stand up to scrutiny from, say, the Workplace Relations Commission or the LRC?

Ms Carty mentioned boats, sonar and the wonderful equipment of the Civil Defence. God be with the days when, back in the day, all we had was the old Green Goddess but I see the fire equipment, ambulances and transport the Civil Defence now has is really excellent stuff. I do not want to put Ms Carty on the spot and she can refuse to answer my question but I note to the Chair this is something we should look at in the report. Having search and rescue functions split between two Departments, in my view, is wrong. The Civil Defence is called out for search and rescue. They have their own boats and, as we have just heard, a large number of volunteers. To have the SAR operation, that is, the helicopter search and rescue, under the remit of the Department of Transport means that in a situation where there is a national emergency call-out, having two Departments involved is a bad idea from my perspective. We should have all of the search and rescue services and all of the volunteers, including the Coast Guard, all under the one Department. Ms Carty does not have to answer. It is a personal view of mine and she does not have to agree or disagree with it.

I am pushed for time as I have another meeting to attend, and I will be back, and I will ask Mr. McMoreland a few questions. Again, the Office of Emergency Planning has shown itself at times of emergency, which are becoming more frequent, to be really up there. I am concerned about a couple of things with respect to emergency planning. One is cables off the coast, which is talked about no matter where you go, that is, cables off the west coast of Ireland. Interconnectivity between the UK and Ireland is particularly of huge concern at the moment. If a gas pipeline is taken out it is not just a national emergency, there are hospitals and major infrastructural issues. Has the Office of Emergency Planning the necessary resources to plan for the inevitable emergencies that may take place in the event of a rogue action somewhere in the Irish Sea, in particular? Off the south-west coast is probably a different issue.

The issue of training of local authorities crosses the responsibilities of both organisations. Has the Office of Emergency Planning got the resources it needs to provide training? I believe local authority members, for example, should be introduced to a training scheme that informed them as to what was available and how they can activate the volunteer services if they need them. They may be well up to date or they may not.

Ireland is about to take over the Presidency of the European Union. That brings with it serious concerns with respect to emergencies that may take place during that period. Has the Office of Emergency Planning now a standard operating procedure, SOP, to deal with emergencies in the event of dignitaries from other states being in the country in the event of a national emergency?

My last question concerns interdepartmental co-operation. Does somebody in Mr. McMoreland's position have executive authority over all Departments in a national emergency or is it a question of requesting assistance from Departments, which I believe would delay things?

When the review is published we need to have Mr. McMoreland back to discuss how we might implement the findings of the review. I am sorry for throwing all of that on the floor but I really want to compliment the witnesses on the work they do. I am delighted to hear the Civil Defence is recruiting again. It still manages to have a presence in almost every county in the country, particularly in coastal areas, so I congratulate it on a job well done.

There is very limited time to answer those questions, but if the witnesses could try.

If I could take the questions in reverse order, I congratulate Senator Craughwell and his family on their engagement with the Civil Defence. It is very important and we see that repeatedly where families engage they bring other family members in. It is critically important to us.

In reverse order, and I know Mr. McMoreland will touch on communications to local authorities, etc., one thing we do right now is meet regional groups. We meet newly elected councillors to promote and publicise the services of the Civil Defence so that they understand exactly what is available in the community, particularly for newly elected representatives. That is ongoing and we have done that in both Sligo and Kerry during the current year. We hope to do it a lot more as we move forward.

In regard to search and rescue, there are two elements to that. We engage very well with An Garda Síochána and they are on our interagency guidance team. We have developed a map to show our capability cross the country and across all of our units to show where we have boats, catering teams, etc., so that the Garda is aware of that. We are also involved with An Garda Síochána on the national search and rescue forum, which is where all of the search parties come together to discuss and agree the way forward on search. It happens on two levels - at ground level with the Garda but also at the national level with that forum. I agree with the Senator that we need, in common with other areas, to have joined-up thinking on all of our responses to make sure we are using all of our resources to best effect.

I will let Mr. Brophy, who is in the technical space, talk about the equipment such as boats, etc., in a few moments.

I will talk about the labour law and the rogue volunteer. We have a code of practice, which is a statutory instrument that was published alongside the Civil Defence Act 2023. That sets out the expectations of the volunteer but also what the volunteer should do in the event there is some kind of behaviour that is worrying in the unit. It also sets out responsibilities for the Civil Defence officers and right up to local authority level. What we are trying to do as part of the volunteer induction and charter is to strengthen that and put absolute protocols in place around that.

In relation to the labour law, we have an informal piece in place that manages the volunteers on the ground to make sure they are not overworked or over-tasked on a duty. Informally, that happens on the ground at the moment. I will pass over to Mr. Brophy to talk about the equipment and resources we have available.

I thank the Senator. I will start off with the boats. Through the Dormant Accounts Fund, we invested heavily in upgrading the fleet of boats across the country both this year and last year. We are developing new standard operating guidelines. We are more or less on the final draft and will present that in the Department in the coming months. In tandem with that we have already been rolling out new training as part of those standard operating guidelines and that has been very successful across a lot of units. There is training going on today in Roscommon as part of this. That is the update on the boats.

In regard to the other search equipment such as sonar and drones, we have invested heavily in those during the past couple of years. Just last week we deployed four new drones across counties Roscommon, Carlow, Tipperary and Cavan. The new drone pilots will all be trained this weekend. Those drones have given them extra capability where they will be able to fly more in inclement weather, particularly during the recovery phase of severe weather events. The drones are more often used is in the search and rescue space because they have longer endurance and extra thermal capability where they can be used as a force multiplier for boots on the ground that are carrying out the searches.

Again, with sonar we have our expanded our capability in that area, providing searches in waterways; mainly inland but some coastal. We share those capabilities and the outputs from those with the lead agency for missing persons, which in most cases would be An Garda Síochána. We can also share those capabilities with other agencies, for example for wildfire response the Air Corps might want to know the water depths of a particular water body before they do Bambi bucket scoops and that kind of thing. We can provide that in advance.

Senator Craughwell spoke for too long but I would like to have a quick response from Mr. McMoreland before I move on.

I thank the Chair and the Senator. In respect of the protection of subsea cables, we run the national risk assessment process from our office. In 2023 we identified damage to undersea infrastructure as one of the 22 key risks for Ireland. We did an analysis and found that damage to the gas interconnector, with an intentional disruption to the gas interconnector, was a reasonable worst case scenario for damage to undersea infrastructure. We operate a lead Government Department model, so once we identify a key risk then that risk is given a risk owner and the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment is the risk owner for that particular risk.

With respect to the co-ordination of national level responses, emergency planning is two sides of the same coin. There is the planning and preparedness element and then we hit the response phase. The Tánaiste, as chair of the Government task force, GTF, manages the planning and preparedness element with us supporting him. When we go into the response phase the lead Government Department has the responsibility for the crisis. Our responsibility is to convene the national emergency co-ordination group on their behalf. The national emergency co-ordination group is the same group as the GTF, so it is the same group of senior officials. Our key performance indicator, KPI, under the strategic emergency management policy, is to convene that group within 60 minutes.

I will move to the next speaker. Is Deputy Stanley okay to go next?

I thank the Cathaoirleach and welcome the witnesses. I want to concentrate on the Civil Defence. I acknowledge the upgrade of the equipment. I can see in County Laois where it has gone from a very poor situation to a very good one. I do not know if Ms Carty has seen the new accommodation. I acknowledge the work of the county council in helping to put that in place and the Civil Defence unit headed by Mr. Damien Dollard who has done tremendous work, along with the volunteers there. A huge amount of work has been done on the centre itself in terms of improving it.

At the moment, the funding model is 70:30, with 70% coming form the Department of Defence. What was the budget last year? I think there is a difference of a couple of million euro. I saw a figure of €3.5 million in the middle of all of the other figures we were trying to watch over the past few of weeks. Will the Civil Defence tell me what the budget is? The funding model is 70:30 and local authority provides 30% but in actual practice it is becoming more like 50:50. The local authority has a lot of other demands on it. There is a concern at local authority level among local authority members that they are being asked to come up with more than they should. Overall, there is the concern that the Civil Defence itself has adequate funding. Will the witnesses address that question for me please?

In regard to boats and vehicle replacement, I acknowledge that sometimes we complain about shortcomings but the equipment has really improved. I have a family member in the Civil Defence and I am more familiar with it that I used to be, even though when I was a local authority member I had a good bit of interaction with the Civil Defence. I have had a better look at the Civil Defence during the past seven or eight years. In terms of the replacement of equipment, vehicles and boats is there an overreliance on the Dormant Accounts Fund?

In relation to the Department and the required permissions for boat operations, does the Department have all those? I am trying to keep my questions short.

I read Mr. McMoreland's opening statement last night that he provided to the committee. It is good and very detailed. A concern I have is that there are a lot of acronyms in it and I had to go back through it and check what each of them meant. There is a lot is happening at a high level, but there is a real problem on the ground, and it has shown up during recent storms and emergencies, in that there are not enough local authority staff in municipal districts to deal with problems. If there is an overseer and half a dozen general operatives, these are the people who go out and carry out the preventative maintenance work. If this work is not carried out, then we have flooding. Sometimes this happens because a shopping trolley, a pallet, brambles or whatever else is stuck in a weir. It is as simple as that. The result is that we have a whole housing estate flooded. Basic maintenance work is needed to prevent this type of issue. It is the same with the ESB. It pared back its core staff in recent years and has been depending on contractors, who can sometimes be very hard to get. It is definitely very difficult to do so in an emergency during a storm. It is not possible to get them but you get your own workers.

I am just highlighting this aspect. It is an issue. I mean this in a very respectful way, but while it is all happening up there at the witnesses' level, on the ground it is about the people who put on the high-vis jackets and protective clothing and go out in all weathers to try to get things back together again and to alleviate flooding. There is a real problem with a shortage of front-line workers in the local authorities. There is no way of getting around this. It is showing up every day. I am sure other public representatives here can see the issue. County councillors definitely see it, because they are the first line of defence and the ones the public turn to. This issue must be addressed.

An attempt is being made to increase the numbers of volunteers from 1,800 to 3,500. I hope that works out. Recruits do seem to be coming in. In County Laois, new recruits are coming in. The volunteer ethos is very important, but there may be an issue there and I am not sure about this should be dealt with. Senator Craughwell mentioned labour law and all of that. I have heard the mobile phone going off at 12 o’clock or 1 o’clock in the morning, the heavy boots going down the stairs and then they have to get up at 6.30 the next morning to go into work. There could have been a call out for a search and rescue in the Slieve Bloom mountains. There have been a good few of those incidents now in the last year. The question is how we handle this type of situation. Can people tell their employers they cannot be in because they were out all night with the Civil Defence? I do not know. I just want to put that question, but I do think the volunteer ethos is very important.

Those are my questions, if the witnesses can answer them. I just want to say, "Well done" to them, by the way. I read some of the booklet on the 75th anniversary. I intend to read more of it. I thank the witnesses.

I thank Deputy Stanley. I again thank his family member for volunteering with the Civil Defence. I also thank the County Laois Civil Defence officer who works very closely with us. To answer the Deputy’s question, I have seen the unit. When I joined Civil Defence two years ago, we made a point of visiting all the units across the country, all 28 of them, because we wanted to understand how the units were operating, what obstacles they had to operating in each area, etc. That work was completed. We are delighted County Laois has the new unit and we do appreciate the support from the County Laois local authority in this regard.

Just recently, the Civil Defence officer in County Laois went to the UK for us. We are trying to broaden and have a national approach to search and rescue and we are looking to align with the Association of Lowland Search and Rescue in the UK. The County Laois Civil Defence officer, who is an expert in the area of search and rescue, represented us there, along with someone from County Kilkenny. I think this is evidence of how we are working with the Civil Defence units and how important it is that we use their expertise on the ground.

The Deputy spoke about funding and I want to come at this from three angles. First, our grant is of the order of €6.5 million. This is broken down into operational grants of about €3.5 million, so this may be where the Deputy is seeing that other figure. We have increased our budget by 15% over the last few years and we will continue to seek increases, provided we can be assured we will be able to use the funding. We do not want to seek funding and then not have the time to do things properly in accordance with procurement rules and value for money. It is about trying to find the balance between those two elements. I know there is a perception that the funding is 70:30 and moving towards 50:50, but I counter this by saying we have moved a lot of the procurement in-house. While the operational grant is run on a 70:30 basis, we have actually moved to bring central procurement in-house for uniforms, all our personal protective equipment, the boats-----

Ms Carty is saying the Department is buying centrally rather than each unit buying this equipment.

Yes, exactly.

That is fine. I completely get that.

That addresses that point a little bit. While the local authority certainly does make a good contribution to Civil Defence, it is also the case that we are ring-fencing a pool of money centrally so we can provide the same uniforms and PPE and can buy drones, sonar equipment and, particularly now, rest centre and evacuation centre equipment. We want to ensure all units have the same type of equipment and are able to interoperate effectively. We need to look at this context in the round. It is not just the operational grants but the central money being spent as well.

The Deputy is correct that we do use Dormant Accounts Fund funding very significantly. When I looked back, it was €2.7 million over the past five years. This is fairly significant funding. We have sought it again this year. We have sought another €400,000 to do more in terms of upgrading our fleet and boats. We certainly do want to reduce our reliance on this source of funding, but for now it is available and we will take it and upgrade the fleet. It is important we do this central procurement and continue to upgrade the fleet. The breadth of activity of the Civil Defence is significant and regulation is significant, so it is really important we get those central training and central standard operating guidelines in place so we can better manage the regulation and governance and keep our volunteers safe.

The Deputy wondered if we have everything we need in the boat space. We are in the process of looking at the boat licensing aspect. It is a challenge for us because the breadth of activity of the Civil Defence is so vast. We could be involved in search and rescue or sampling water with the local authorities. We may be required to recover a body in the event of a missing person search and that might require gardaí or other people to be on the boat. There is a challenge there between the passenger boat licence and the use of the boat for other activities. We are negotiating at the moment.

I do take the Deputy’s point about the labour law. This is a wider policy piece we do need to consider as we move forward. I know other countries mandate volunteering days and those are paid for by the government, but it is a much wider issue that would have to be considered in the round and through the extensive policy engagement. It is something we are aware of, and as part of our engagement with Civil Defence officers, CDOs,we do ask them to be very aware of the response from volunteers and to manage that as best they can so we protect the health and safety of volunteers.

At present, however, there is no protocol or no rule in terms of what happens the next morning in the case of a volunteer who is out during the night.

No. To be honest, it would not be within my policy space.

Okay.

What we try to do within our policy space is to manage the hours volunteers respond to for Civil Defence.

With the permission of the Cathaoirleach, could I get a response to my question in terms of front-line staff, particularly in the local authorities but also in the ESB? If there is an overseer in a municipal district with just a handful of outdoor workers, you will be in trouble in terms of maintenance when the emergency does come. In terms of building up to emergencies, it compounds the situation. There are also not sufficient numbers to respond. Is this issue being discussed at any level?

That is not within my space, to be honest.

Perhaps Mr. McMoreland might respond to this question.

I thank the Deputy, and reiterate what he said in praising local authority workers during crises. They do phenomenal work, particularly in preparing and treating roads and the chainsaw crews who go out and clear those roads when we have damage during storms. I highlighted to the Senator that we have a lead Government Department model, so I have to be very careful I do not slip into another Department’s policy area. What I can say, though, is that we are working with colleagues now to ensure we plug the utilities in as well. It is not just about the ESB but also Uisce Éireann and the telecommunication providers and plugging them into the local authority system.

I know and understand that Mr. McMoreland does not want to step on the toes of any other Department.

Does the OEP recognise that sufficient staff on the ground are required? Has this issue come on the radar? I would be very concerned if it has not.

I will not stray into the policy area of another Department. We do not have any responsibility for local government.

I know the OEP does not but it is an issue for those involved in emergency planning. We cannot let today go without highlighting this.

I thank Deputy Stanley and we will note it.

I absolutely agree. It is obviously significant for the whole of the operation. There is no point in having all of these strategies and plans and everything else if we do not-----

If we do not have people to implement them.

Yes, if we do not have enough feet on the ground. Perhaps we will discuss in private session how we can bring forward highlighting this at the committee. We will move on to Deputy Ó Laoghaire.

I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee and I thank the staff and volunteers of Civil Defence for the work they do. It is very challenging work in many ways. There is a real commitment to people's communities and the public because it is challenging work in difficult weather and it is exhausting work at times. As a voluntary organisation, it makes a big difference in times of need that is very cost-effective. Many voluntary organisations are experiencing a challenging time with the changing nature of people's lives and work. I want to get a sense of the strength of Civil Defence. Am I correct that there are approximately 2,000 members at present? With regard to the trajectory, I have figures going back to 2016 or 2017 when it was a good bit higher. That is seven or eight years ago at this stage. Over the past year or two, has it been on the way up, has it been about even or has it been on the way down? What is the trajectory of the numbers?

It is definitely on the way up but slowly. I met a couple of Civil Defence officers last week and they brought a new perspective to it. We have a target to grow to 2,500 by late next year and then to grow to 3,500. We engaged with Civil Defence officers on our volunteer strategy and induction plan and they mentioned the importance of integrating new people into the team. A lot of the units have very strong and very positive teams throughout the country. They said they made the mistake in the past of bringing in too many volunteers at the same time. This is unfair to the volunteers and it does not work well in integrating with the team and keeping the team safe, which is the top priority for us. We have a plan that all Civil Defence units will run an induction programme after completing the challenging summer period and the weather events of the winter. When they come out of all this, they will run an induction plan that would run for the following year to integrate teams. On this basis the trajectory will have to be managed and we would probably be looking at ten to 15 per each of the 28 units. We are trying to build it gradually over the next few years.

We also want to be more streamlined about how we bring in volunteers. With the way regulation has gone we cannot train volunteers in every discipline because it is too difficult to maintain the competency on a continuing basis. We want to make sure we get the breadth of activities that Civil Defence is involved in and the different skills we need in the organisation. This is so it will appeal to a wider demographic and that they will be focused when they come in and gravitate to two or three teams but not to ten teams. This will mean that we will use our volunteers more effectively, we will not overburden them and we will manage the induction into the unit. The numbers are on the up and this is something that will need to be managed. We have the target of 3,500. We have looked at how this equates across all Civil Defence units based on the area and population of a county. We will discuss this with Civil Defence officers and their direct line managers as part the development plan engagement over the next month to six weeks so we are all on the same page as we move into 2026.

When Civil Defence is recruiting people, it is about getting a sense of what it is about Civil Defence that appeals to people. A lot of it is service to the community but there are a lot of ways to achieve this, such as through the GAA, the scouts and community associations. With regard to the skills, we had members of the Reserve Defence Force, RDF, before the committee last week. That is more financially appealing as Civil Defence is totally voluntary. What does Civil Defence emphasise? How does it accentuate the positive elements when it is trying to get people in the door and trying to recruit? What is emphasised? What it is that appeals to people to go into Civil Defence? As a follow-up question to this, are there particular occupations such as paramedics that are more inclined to join Civil Defence? Are there volunteers across the breadth of skills required?

I will speak to this briefly and then I will ask Mr. Brophy to speak because when we were discussing this the other day he spoke very clearly about what it is that appeals and the message we need to get out there. Originally the target was to try to get people from front-line services because they come in trained. They have trained in medical response and they might have trained previously in the auxiliary fire service. The lesson from other countries is that we need to move away from this and go to a wider demographic. In the event of an emergency these people will be required to respond with their employers. We would then be looking to a very small pool that is still available and not rostered for duty. While we still want to bring in these people, we absolutely want volunteers from every demographic. We also want to look beyond this even if it requires more training in the short term. We will be looking to people who, for example, have their own businesses and are able to make decisions to leave and respond as required, and people employed in the wider workforce. The broader our pool of responders is, the better access we will have to them in the event of a response.

From my perspective, what differentiates Civil Defence from other organisations such as the Reserve Defence Force, for example, is the breadth of activities in which we train. There is an appeal to a broader demographic because it is more than just what is available in the RDF or in some of the other organisations. It goes beyond this as it goes to the sense of giving back. When I was driving yesterday I was listening to something on the blood transfusion service and the feelgood factor for people knowing their blood has been donated and passed on to somebody who needs it. This feelgood factor is what all of our volunteers speak about all of the time. Mr. Brophy has been involved in exercises on the ground with the volunteers and I will ask him to speak a little bit more about what brings the volunteers in and what retains them.

The sense of community and being part of supporting their own community is very strong in our volunteers. We are a small country and when they respond to a missing person search the chances are they know the person they are looking for or they know somebody related to them. There are probably three degrees of separation. The severe weather or emergency events are happening in their county and in their area so they have that sense of fulfilment and the sense of doing a worthwhile job in responding to these times when their own communities are in need. This is definitely a unique selling point for our volunteers.

There is also training we give them. Every volunteer has a minimum training standard before they can partake in other training or before they can be deployed operationally. This includes child protection training from Tusla, Garda vetting, manual handling and cardiac first response training and they all do an induction. All these are recertified on their statutory bases. Cardiac first response is an invaluable skill and every volunteer is trained in it. A lot of them progress to first aid responder, emergency first responder and up to emergency medical technician. At present we have almost 50 volunteers training as emergency medical technicians.

With regard to people in front-line services, it goes both ways.

People volunteer with us who are also members of front-line services. Some of our volunteers also use it as a stepping stone to progress into full-time employment with the traditional principal response agencies, the blue light services.

We see exercises on different scales. Each unit has local exercises organised on an ad hoc basis. We might step in to get more involved in inter-unit and wider inter-agency exercises. This year, we were involved in a large-scale European wildfire exercise in Wicklow that had about 100 responders in total from across the emergency services involved. The volunteers were delighted to be involved because they saw the bigger picture and the whole inter-agency co-operation and interoperability. Each year, we exercise with the Environmental Protection Agency as part of the national plan for nuclear and radiological emergency exposures. This year, we did two exercises with it, one as part of our standard national exercise and one as part of an international IAEA ConvEx-3 exercise. Along the east coast, we provided six units on a Tuesday and Wednesday providing radiation sampling for the EPA along with our colleagues in the Defence Forces. Only three weeks ago, we were involved in a large exercise in Westport under the new national low latency platform for mission-critical communications. We were brought in by the Office of the Government Chief Information Officer to be part of that exercise and the development of that project as it goes forward.

I thank everybody for coming in today and for being so informative. The Civil Defence is not an area I am very au fait with. For the Office of Emergency Planning, providing peer support to different Departments is mentioned in the opening statement. Will Mr. McMoreland expand on that? He also mentioned that the Government is now developing a broader all-hazards public preparedness initiative and that the campaign aims to build a stronger culture of preparedness. He said the new campaign is about to be launched shortly, which will extend preparedness to every individual, household and community in Ireland. Will Mr. McMoreland provide an outline of what the campaign will be about? How much of a focus will there be on a cyber-resilience?

I congratulate the Civil Defence on its 75th anniversary. It is a testament to any voluntary organisation that it can be going from strength to strength after 75 years. While I said I am not totally au fait with the Civil Defence, as I have not been involved in it, I see them at every event. I was at an athletics competition recently and the first thing we asked was where the Civil Defence was, as we could not see it straight away. It does not seem like a proper event if it is not there. On the presentation, how much of a canine capability does the Civil Defence have? Deputy Ó Laoghaire mentioned recruitment and trying to attract people. I was going to ask that question also. Does Ms Carty have anything to add to that on the retention of volunteers, the challenges in particular and how we as a committee can support that?

I will start with the new preparedness campaign. I will not go into too much detail because we still have to brief the Tánaiste and seek the appropriate approvals. We have for the past 13 years run the Be Winter Ready campaign. That comes out of our office. People will have seen it through the local authority system. It focuses on the seasonal hazards winter brings. We are stepping it up to look at an all-hazards approach to make sure society - individuals, communities and households - are prepared for all of those events including cyber. It is taking an all-hazards approach. It is not just looking at seasonal issues but also at broader issues, focused on our national risk assessment, and how to prepare for those risks. For example, it focuses on what you need to be ready in the event of an electricity outage or a loss of water or utilities. What was the Deputy's first question?

The opening statement circulated yesterday mentioned that one of the Office of Emergency Planning's responsibilities is to provide peer support to other Government Departments. Perhaps I misheard. I did not hear it mentioned today in the opening statement. Will Mr. McMoreland give an outline of what that is?

I mentioned the lead Government Department model. We identify risks but also identify 50 different emergency types in our policy. For each, we assign a lead Government Department. For all of those 50 emergencies and the 22 key risks, we assign a risk owner. Of all of the Departments, there are eight lead Government Departments. We have responsibility as they ramp up planning preparedness. If they prepare emergency plans, we provide some subject matter expertise to them as a lead Government Department. They are the sectoral and policy experts for electricity emergencies and cyber crises, for example, but we provide them with guidance in respect of how to prepare their overarching plans. When it is time to exercise those plans, we provide the National Emergency Co-ordination Group but also guidance and advice in relation to the emergency exercises to ensure they encompass a whole-of-government approach. If one is preparing a national electricity exercise, sometimes one can be just focused on the electricity aspects whereas when we come together as the National Emergency Co-ordination Group, we need to think about social protection, education, transport and all of the cross-sectoral issues the electricity outage will cause. We make sure they are built into the exercises. That is the type of peer support we offer.

Is there a focus on cyber in the new campaign?

There will be in the event of a telecommunications outage. There will be guidance on that.

That would be important.

I thank the Deputy for her questions. I think she represents Carlow-Kilkenny.

I do indeed.

I just want to acknowledge that the director of service there has been instrumental in helping us with the medical response and governance side of the house and engagement with local authorities. The Civil Defence officer in Kilkenny was travelling on the same search and rescue piece with Laois last weekend. They are heavily involved in search and rescue on the river at various times. The Carlow unit is heavily involved in all of the community activities and activities on the Barrow. There was a big search at the start of last year, I think.

Our canine unit is four. We have three based in Dublin and one in Meath. We have a broad range of skills in the search area. Canine is just one but it is an important part of the service. Mr. Brophy mentioned some of the other capabilities we have in that space.

Recruitment and retention are critically important because we do not want to just bring volunteers in the door; we want to make sure they have a positive experience and they stay. Some of the actions we have taken in that space include a volunteer forum. We ran one in February with about 150 volunteers to hear their views and to present on things like the code of practice and what is expected of volunteers, etc. We propose to continue that in the years ahead because it is important. Things like the medals events we had for the 75th anniversary are really important. Volunteers do it because they want to give back to their communities but they need to be recognised. Those events over the past six weeks were positive. The feedback has been universally good from the volunteers. Another area that we and the Department are trying to tackle, in order to make sure we improve the experience, is central procurement so that personnel have the uniforms, personal protective equipment and modern fleet they need to do the work.

That is where we try to bring the focus at the moment. There is also the volunteer charter, the local induction plan and the local training plan because one of the things said to me during the volunteer forum in February was that positive, proactive volunteers who want to progress do not see the clear pathway in the unit or organisation. Therefore as part of the volunteer charter we would like to be able to demonstrate what people can expect to do if they are ambitious in a particular area and they want to grow with the organisation and become an officer or instructor. We want to be more clear about what is available there. Those are the actions we are taking to try to make sure that we not only recruit but that we also retain and that our volunteers have a positive experience.

Is there much of a challenge with retention even given those measures?

It is difficult to comment on that. We will be able to do so more into the future because we have our new volunteer and equipment management system so we are able to look at point-in-time information, numbers across units, numbers in particular age profiles, etc. The volunteer register of old was not equipped to do that for us so while 5,000 volunteers might have been registered, we would not have known if they were all active or if they had all their minimum training standards. We deployed in July 2023 with that new system so as we go forward we will be able to track the volunteers and see where we are losing volunteers and what we can do to stop that and see what the trajectory is in terms of growing volunteers. We now have the information we need to do that into the future.

I thank Mr. Carty.

I thank the witnesses for their presentations this morning. Civil Defence in my area is very evident on the ground. Members attend many different functions and it is great to see them. Usually people in Civil Defence are local. They are friends and I think that is how people join. People are members of the Civil Defence and they talk to their friend, neighbour or whatever and they become a close group, which is very good. I wish the witnesses well in their endeavours to increase numbers from 1,920 to 2,500. That is very important. If there is anything anybody can do, or we can do, to help in any way we would be delighted to do that.

The question was asked about rogue actions such as interference with gas pipelines or whatever. Does Civil Defence have the capacity to do the work and repair that or is it another body? I know it has sonar equipment and all that kind of stuff. This is very important going forward. I heard of a big engineering company in Sligo this week that employs 200 people, which was hacked last weekend. It has been discovered that it was a Russian hack. These companies have top security in their systems. Now a ransom of €200,000 has been requested and unfortunately, the company will probably have to pay it. It is very important that into the future we try and stop these actions because it is getting more regular and more common.

Mr. Brophy mentioned radiation samples. Where does this sampling take place? Is it ongoing all the time? He might expand on that.

The radiation sampling is soil, grass and radiation dose-rate monitoring that we would do on request by the Environmental Protection Agency as part of the national plan for nuclear and radiological emergency exposures.

I thank Mr. Brophy.

I will come back to Deputy Stanley. There were a couple of questions I wanted to ask. One is on all-island co-operation. If we have an emergency disaster, what does that look like in terms of protection of the island?

I will speak briefly on that and pass on to Mr. McMoreland. From our perspective it is just about making sure that we work effectively along the Border area and that there is not a demarcation. Part of that is, as I mentioned earlier, the alignment with the Association of Lowland Search and Rescue to make sure we are following the same protocols across the island and that we are not doing anything that is in contravention or conflict with what is happening in the North of Ireland. The national directorate is looking at urban search and rescue on a national basis. Civil Defence is not involved in that at the moment but it is something that is being looked at from the national directorate perspective. I do not know if Mr. McMoreland has any more information on that.

We conduct and run the all-island disaster risk reduction conference on an annual basis. We began in 2022. The idea behind it was to bring together policy experts from across the island, including academics and professional people who are working in emergency management, into a forum where we can discuss issues of common interest across the Border. Through the all-island unit in the Department of the Taoiseach, we funded research into public communications, emergency communications to the public in Border counties. We also have an informal relationship with the Northern Ireland Executive office and the civil contingencies policy branch there, which is our equivalent in Northern Ireland. We have an equivalent east-west relationship as well. We do keep and monitor and exchange information to make sure we are all aware of risks that are common to all our interests.

I very much welcome that there is co-operation North-South, east and west but is there a plan? Does everybody know what to do basicall, if there is a national emergency that affects all of the island or indeed both islands?

Yes, there are mutual aid arrangements between North and South.

How does Mr. McMoreland find that co-operation? Are there any obstacles?

Again, we operate at the government level. Operationally we could focus on the tragic events at Creeslough and the solidarity that we saw from our Northern Irish colleagues, including the blue light services, there. Again, it is a different Department’s policy area but that demonstrates the positive relationship in a major incident but that is happening on a daily basis. Operationally, people who operate in the Border region cross the Border routinely. Again, it is through those mutual aid arrangements that they have in place.

That is good. It is bigger than just the Border region and just those areas. It is looking at this from an all-island perspective so that there is a seamless approach to protection of the island and to planning for emergencies. Would Mr. McMoreland say we are there yet? Is there anything we can do as a committee to assist that?

Certainly, we are working towards that at the minute. One of our goals in the Office of Emergency Planning is to enhance that relationship both North and South.

Has everything been stepped up? The office has in its plan that the risks are being updated all the time. Is there a sense of urgency within the Departments to get to a place where we are in a better position?

All the Departments that have responsibilities for any one of those 22 key risks are stepping up. They are engaging in emergency planning and in exercising. We are exercising the NECG. We routinely convene, under the Department of housing, for weather but we are also preparing for all of those other crises that may emerge – that electricity crisis, that oil crisis, that radiological crisis, that cyber crisis. The Senator mentioned cybersecurity. The National Cyber Security Centre rests in the Department of justice, which is the lead Department. It has produced a national cyber emergency plan and it has exercised that in the national emergency operations centre. It is important to note that Departments are engaged in active planning particularly for those risks that are high-priority risks.

Can we go as a committee to visit the national centre?

We would be delighted to host the committee.

Thank you. I think we will do that.

It is important to instil confidence in the population about the good work that has been outlined to ensure people are confident in what is there. The more awareness we can raise about that the better, as well as having people's questions answered.

I commend the Civil Defence. The main challenge we had was with the R116 crash. I saw how the response operated. I commend all the workers on the ground, including the Civil Defence personnel, on their attitude, on the co-ordination there and on how it gelled in with the community response.

Ms Carty was talking about the engagement that is being done with the local authorities. That is awfully important. She mentioned a couple of local authorities. The engagement between members and local authorities is very important, especially in the coastal areas because we have particular risks there. Can that be speeded up with the engagement being done online? How do the officials see that being done? There was mention of three or four local authorities.

We have good engagement with the local authorities across the country.

Is there engagement with members?

Yes, and probably more recently than in the past. It is definitely something we want to step up. When we meet the regional co-ordination groups, we explain particularly what the capability and capacity is and potentially the challenges for units within those regional areas. We have very good engagement with the LGMA and the CCMA. We met them last week to go through priorities as we move into the next two years. That relationship is working very well and will filter out to the local authorities. To the Cathaoirleach's specific point, part of our plan is to engage more closely with the regional local authority representative groups as well.

That is very good. It is really important to get to the members because events often take place over a weekend when only the members are available. Just engaging with the executive falls short. Every member of the local authority needs to know what is available and how things work because you are responding in real time and there are dangers around that.

There are not enough local authority maintenance staff. This is what has happened, obviously. The officials cannot really comment on this but it is very important. There are not enough outdoor staff. I think in Mayo County Council alone, over 200 staff were cut from the outdoor staff, leaving a big void. No matter what strategies or plans you have, if you do not have the foot soldiers you are always going to fall short. We will continue to highlight that.

On central procurement, it is important to have uniformity of equipment and other things that are being used, but I think there needs to be flexibility for local areas as well. Some LEADER companies cannot buy a packet of biscuits without going through all the administrative burden that is there. Is there a level above which this applies, or how does the procurement work?

It is not so much that there is a level in terms of value, but that we procure the key items to ensure our volunteers are recognisable on the ground. It is about making sure they have common high-visibility uniforms so they are clearly designated as Civil Defence personnel. For the boat activities they have key items of equipment such as dry suits and dry boots that are functioning and checked. We are not putting the shackles on the local units in regard to smaller procurement. With the bigger items, we want to make sure the interoperability is working and everybody has the same. It is coming from a good place to make sure the funding is there across all the units.

Okay. On the overall emergency planning, one of the things from the last storm was the delay or the failure to call in the armed forces to help when people were many days without power and water. Why were the Defence Forces called in so late?

The Defence Forces are a key component of both the Government task force on emergency planning and the National Emergency Co-ordination Group. The tasking of the Defence Forces is based on a request of needs from the local authorities and that is dealt with on a priority basis. I cannot speak to the Storm Éowyn delay. I just do not have any knowledge of that; I apologise.

I note again the delays in calling in the Defence Forces when people on the ground were begging for them to be called in to help them to clear trees and do other things that needed to be done. This is important. I would not like to see the same delays again if we are in a similar situation because the Defence Forces have a lot to add to that space.

Deputy Stanley is next.

I thank the Cathaoirleach. She spoke about the importance of local authority outdoor staff in the municipal district areas. I want to go back to that for a minute. While I understand it is not an area the officials can stray into, people at their level need to be aware of the severe shortage here. A strange thing that has happened over the last 30 years is that the number of local authority staff has ballooned. That would be the experience on most county councils. There has been an increase in the number of local authority staff, but at the same time we have seen a massive decrease in the number of what I would loosely term outdoor staff. I want to flag that because we have little enough opportunity to raise this. I will be raising it in other forums as well. I have brought it up in the past. I do not want to let this morning pass without mentioning it because people who are involved in planning for emergencies at national level need to be aware of it.

I was not totally au fait with radiation monitoring and what it involves. I am sorry I had to pop out for a minute, but I was hoping to ask an oral question in the Dáil. Question Time finished just before we got to my question, which is the way it works sometimes. I am wondering about the training for a possible nuclear event. When I was a little younger, fadó fadó, I was a cadet in the Order of Malta. We were trained in what to do in our local communities in the case of nuclear fallout - how to protect people and even how to protect livestock. Is that type of training available? I would like a little information. I am sorry if I missed some information on what is involved in the radiation monitoring when I was out.

Maybe Mr. Brophy can speak to the radiation monitoring piece but I will pass to Mr. McMoreland on the wider response.

I thank the Deputy. The national plan for nuclear and radiological exposures is held by the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment as lead Government Department for that. The national plan highlights the trigger levels for the activation of the National Emergency Co-ordination Group and focuses primarily on nuclear incidents abroad that impact the island of Ireland. The relevant agencies - the Department of Health, the HSE, the Food Safety Authority of Ireland and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine - are the key components in the plan for public safety advice in times of crisis involving nuclear incidents abroad. I do not recall that it focuses on training specifically. It is very much focused on national level co-ordination, the national structures we would stand up and the advice and guidance that would be provided by the Environmental Protection Agency to the public.

Can I ask Ms Carty about the training? Obviously certain things have to happen in the event of nuclear fallout, and they require people. Does the Civil Defence have a role in that? Is there any training for Civil Defence members in that? Some of us lived through the tail end of the Cold War. You would not call what we have now a cold war as it is more of a hot war, and anything can happen.

What is the role of the Civil Defence, if any, in this?

The role of the Civil Defence is not in that space. It is in the constant, ongoing monitoring and making sure they are able to respond in terms of that sampling, etc. It would be in the post phase in terms of monitoring and sampling again. They do not have any role in the centre point in the actual response to that. It is something that will be covered as part of the response to nuclear. It is a point that we will bring back to the table with regard to the response on the ground and who will be responding. It will be-----

Will it be in the plan?

It will be considered within the plan, yes.

I thank Ms Carty.

Are we okay with all of that? Yes. On behalf of the committee, I again thank the officials very much for their time and engagement this morning. We will allow the witnesses to exit and then go into private session.