Apologies have been received from Deputy Dempsey and Senator Bradley. The purpose of today's meeting is to resume our discussion on access to employment for persons with disabilities. On behalf of the committee, I extend a warm welcome to the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment with responsibility for employment, small businesses, retail and the circular economy. I also welcome from the Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment, Mr. Brian Walsh, principal officer, and Mr. Stephen Bonnlander, principal officer.

Before we begin, I will read a note on privilege and housekeeping matters. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make her him or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of that person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction I may make. The evidence of witnesses who are physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege.

I remind members of the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings, they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. Members attending remotely must do so from within the precincts of the Leinster House complex.

I call the Minister of State, Deputy Dillon, to make his opening statement. He has five minutes.

I thank the Chair for the kind invitation to attend this meeting to consider the employment, including self-employment, of people with disabilities. I am joined by officials from my Department.

I am aware that the employment of people with disabilities is an area where we need to improve in Ireland. It is important to say that we in the Department of enterprise recognise that clearly. We have participated fully, alongside the Department of Social Protection and other colleagues, in the development of the employment pillar of the National Human Rights Strategy for Disabled People 2025-2030, which was published in September last year. This strategy provides us with the framework to co-ordinate a whole-of-government approach. That alignment across government is critical to achieving real progress in this regard.

My Department and I are fully engaged in delivering the actions set out in the strategy. From my Department's perspective, the key overall metric that we are seeking to improve is clear. We are looking to reduce the disability employment gap. That is the outcome that ultimately matters in the life cycle of this strategy. The Department is focused on engaging with this issue using our strengths, such as our relationship with employers, sectoral organisations and representative bodies. That is where we believe we can make the greatest contribution.

In my Department we do not have direct levers focused on support schemes or the same level of direct engagement with disability stakeholders as other Departments. I will be clear about that in our deliberations today. What we do have is the ability to improve the opportunities for people with disabilities to access employment across the lifetime of the strategy. A key priority of the Department has been the establishment of the forum on the employment of disabled people. The forum held its first meeting in February of this year. The intention behind it is straightforward. We believe it will provide an important and valuable platform for discussion and engagement with employers on disability employment. Ultimately, employers are critical to improving outcomes and the overarching objective of the forum is to move from awareness to action and it will seek to raise awareness of the potential of disabled employees. It will showcase best practice by businesses and enterprises and provide an important platform for the exchange of information. It will also provide a vehicle to share relevant information on Government policies and programmes, which can then be disseminated more widely. It is about being practical in our engagement, not just having a discussion but being more focused on engagement and the issues we look forward to raising.

The availability of employment supports and questions around specific schemes, such as the wage subsidy scheme, are matters focused within the parent Department, namely, the Department of Social Protection, and are for its Minister, Deputy Dara Calleary. However, as regards schemes, grants and supports for disabled entrepreneurs, all enterprise support schemes that are available through my Department and its agencies are also fully available to disabled entrepreneurs. There is no restriction in this regard. Enterprise Ireland, for example, is committed to providing accessible services. That includes providing information in accessible formats on request, offering alternative communication channels where needed and ensuring that its digital services meet recognised accessibility standards. That is an important part of ensuring that access is meaningful in practice.

In addition, most people who are considered for starting a business will first engage with their local enterprise office, LEO. The role of the LEO is very significant. We have over 31 offices across the country. Their staff have received disability awareness training and that training will continue throughout the lifetime of the strategy. We have also developed targeted online learning supports for people with disabilities who are interested in starting a business. These supports are also designed to assist people at the early stage of their journey in their entrepreneurship. This work is reflected in action 5.6 of the national human rights strategy.

We recognise that there is more to do. We are making progress in this regard. Our focus is on redoubling our efforts in improving access, strengthening engagement and ensuring that the supports are working in practice. We will continue to ensure that more people with disabilities can access them and remain and progress within employment.

I thank the Chair for affording me the opportunity to discuss this hugely important topic and I look forward to engaging with members of the committee.

I propose we publish the opening statement on the committee's website. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Before we begin, when we talk about employment there is one company that always pops up. I again commend the company Mr. Price. Wherever we go, people tell us that Mr. Price is being proactive. I wish we had a lot more companies like that.

I am now going to invite members of the committee to put their questions. When called, members should adhere to the agenda items scheduled for discussion. Members have five minutes each on this debate, which is to include responses. The first person is Fine Gael's Deputy Keira Keogh.

I welcome the Department members and my colleague from Mayo. It is always good to have two Mayo people in a room. I have three questions I am going to put this morning. Some of them may not fall specifically under the Minister of State's Department but we are looking at the whole-of-government approach, so he may be able to answer in that context. A few months ago, we had Ms Avril Greham here from the Mayo Disabled Persons Organisation. It was great to hear about the issues that were challenging in County Mayo specifically, but also all over the country. One of the main things she highlighted that was fantastic was the opportunity to work from home and hybrid work, and also the real concerns about seeing rollbacks on that recently with people being returned to the office. Is there engagement to promote hybrid working, especially for disabled people?

That leads into the topic of reasonable accommodation. We have heard many stories here around even low-cost solutions coming up against barriers, for example, autistic people wanting written instructions because of sensory overload and some companies requiring laborious reports or doctor reports that can delay even simple strategies. Also, there is the fact that "reasonable accommodation" is quite an ambiguous term and can lead to employers feeling like they are doing a favour for the disabled person rather than a human rights-based approach.

The second matter that came up, which the Minister of State mentioned was not really related to his Department, was that of social welfare supports. Is there any engagement between the Minister of State's Department and the Department of Social Protection around considering a trial work scheme whereby disabled people would not face a cliff edge with disability payments, medical cards and transport assistance?

Staying with that, the Minister of State mentioned training with the LEOs. What does that look like? Ms Greham mentioned that there did not seem to be any incentive for disabled people to go into self-employment even though that offered them the most flexibility.

The last part - again, it probably does not fall under the Minister of State's Department, but looking at the whole-of-government approach - is on how Ms Greham mentioned that because Mayo was so rural, transport was the biggest barrier to work for disabled people. There are not very reliable bus services and while taxis may have disabled ramps and disabled access, the drivers may not have the training to operate them.

I will leave it at that because I have thrown a lot at the Minister of State.

I thank Deputy Keogh. I acknowledge Ms Greham's advocacy on behalf of many people across Mayo and the tremendous work she is doing in engaging with this committee and also at a local level, highlighting the challenges and difficulties many of those who have additional needs face. We want to reduce the barriers that they face in terms of their entry into the workforce.

This Government legislated on the right to request remote working. It has been a hugely positive initiative from the Government. We recently did a statutory review since the legislation's introduction two years ago. It found that there was an over 94% satisfaction rate in regard to those who have requested remote working. The Government has not legislated for the right to remote working but it has presented flexibility so that businesses can remain viable and sustainable and employees have that work-life balance. We know how important that is, even for rural communities. Geography or one's postcode or eircode should not be a barrier. We have seen some companies change policy post Covid to having a more hybrid model where it might be three days in the office and two from home. We would always advocate that, where jobs can be done remotely, they should be supported in that regard because many people have challenges around childcare and travel costs and there is a severe challenge in the labour market and the recruitment of qualified personnel. That is why we have strengthened the code of practice to ensure that employers give more justification for any type of refusal. Where those who have disabilities are concerned, we would always advocate for early engagement and consultation with human resources or the business function to try to seek and explore where they can get remote working and how they can actually have that hybrid model. There are close to 1 million people who have flexible working patterns. That demonstrates that businesses and entrepreneurs want to engage in it and see the benefits of it.

Regarding Deputy Keogh's other questions on entrepreneurs and LEO supports, there has been a robust level of training done within local enterprise offices. They are the first point of call for many new entrepreneurs who are seeking supports. Early engagement is important. I am sure that many people would accept that the supports are there. We do not have a designated stream for disabled people even though we do the mentoring business and one-to-one engagement and the supports will be provided to those who require them.

Regarding transport, it is always an issue that comes up for those who may not have access to modified buses with wheelchair accessibility. The cost of transport was raised at the most recent summit. I know that the Department of Social Protection is reviewing the matter. The Minister of State, Deputy Seán Canney, also has a programme in place to try to ensure that kerbing is modified to allow wheelchair accessibility onto buses. It has been a key discussion point at the delivery, monitoring, implementation and oversight board regarding the actions with this strategy.

I will revert on the other questions. My time has elapsed. I thank Deputy Keogh for her engagement on this.

We will move on to the next person, who is Independent Deputy Seamus Healy.

May I pass for the moment?

That is fine. We will move to Independent Deputy Gillian Toole.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach. I thank the Minister of State and his officials for meeting with us this morning and for his opening statement. I also thank the secretariat for all the background information.

I want to put on record this morning two particular enterprises. One is Centra in Ratoath, which is a fantastic local employer that has engaged with our local Rehab group and provides work experience and permanent employment. I also acknowledge the local enterprise office in Meath, and Professor Thomas Cooney, ReSkill Ireland and the TU Dublin, TUD, project, which is very progressive and should be expanded upon.

I would also like to mention Cathal, a constituent who gave me some very valuable feedback. He has an acquired disability and wanted me to pass on a suggestion to the committee. Things like productivity, workforce schedules, stable hours and so on take into account a degree of fixation and physical ability, whereas for somebody with a disability, there are fluctuations in their quality of health and their ability to participate. His suggestion is something like the work platform Fiverr. Perhaps there could be a Government-supported scheme, a work pool or platform where companies can post modular tasks and workers with disabilities can opt into assignments based on their actual capacity at a given time. Is that being considered? I do not necessarily mean that exact model but something similar. Could it be considered?

What type of engagement is taking place with disabled persons organisations, DPOs, completely in the spirit of national strategies and the whole-of-government approach to co-creation? If the person with a different ability is not involved in the process, the success rate and implementation rate will be quite poor.

The National Disability Authority, NDA, has identified outstanding gaps in the 2015-24 comprehensive employment strategy. What unfinished actions have been identified by the Department and are part of a workstream? Is the Department considering extra incentives, advertising and engagement with employers across the board, including SMEs and foreign direct investment, FDI, companies, to retain and recruit workers with different abilities?

I thank the Deputy for her question and her engagement in advocacy. She mentioned an initiative of LEOs in partnership with TU Dublin. That has been very important in providing online resources and courses specifically designed for people with disabilities. This collaboration gets to the heart of things regarding that partnership. We have seen that through the Open Doors Initiative, which has been very much focused on a dedicated entrepreneurship programme, structural business planning support and one-to-one mentoring for each participant. It provides a very flexible, self-paced learning module and supports the individual in developing that business plan and understanding. Since it is online, there are no geographical barriers or time constraints. It meets individual needs. It is a really important initiative.

On the LEOs, I still feel that they are an important support in how they tailor their business advice and one-to-one guidance. Their training and structured programmes, as well as the mentoring from experienced entrepreneurs, are important for supporting those small businesses that account for over 99% of all businesses across the country. It is significant.

On the challenges and where we need to get to in terms of perception and the lack of engagement from employers, I am focused on the employability gap that we see among those with disabilities. It is still very large at over 20%. It is not about the ability of the individual, but about changing the employer's perceptions by educating and supporting it to do more. I am considering a structure in terms of how employers think, recruit and operate. We need to look at the actions, as the awareness piece is not enough on its own. We need to look at practical change in how organisations operate on a day-to-day basis. We need to shift the enterprise culture. The enterprise forum we have established is ministerial led and looks at best practices. It ensures that there is cross-Government representation, from the Taoiseach's office to the Department of Social Protection and other Departments, with employers in terms of shifting that behaviour across the enterprise system. While we do not hold the policy levers for schemes such as the wage subsidy scheme, access schemes and so on, our direct relationship with businesses can influence enterprise policy and gives us the ability to convene the forum and lead the significant change that we want to see.

On the Deputy's other questions, we are very focused in this strategy on the current programme for 2025 and 2026. I can come back to the Deputy with a note on the previous strategy and identify what items related to the Department of enterprise are still outstanding----

I would appreciate that.

----and what measures we are looking to transfer into the current programme and ensure they are improved.

I welcome the Minister of State, Mr. Bonnlander and Mr. Walsh and thank them for giving up their time to discuss this very important topic. The Minister has a very wide-ranging Department but it is important that people with disabilities reach their potential in life. Employment plays a huge role in this. I am glad that the Minister of State recognises that more needs to be done. I fully recognise and appreciate his willingness to do this. There needs to be a cross-departmental disability-proofing approach to anything that is introduced and Departments need to work together.

I ask the Minister of State to expand on any specific targets and timelines his Department has set to reduce the disability employment gap. How does he think this will progress? How will it be measured and will it be reported publicly?

I thank the Senator. On oversight and implementation of the strategy, we have a disability unit within the Department of the Taoiseach. We also have the delivery and monitoring implementation group. There is very strong oversight, accountability and areas of responsibility within this new national human rights strategy for disabled people. That is critical. It probably has not been the case in previous strategies. Having attended the first delivery and monitoring committee group meeting, there are representatives around the table from the DPOs, self-advocates and people with that lived experience directly engaging with the Ministers with responsibility for their respective areas. While the employment piece is pillar 2, it is co-chaired by the Departments of Social Protection, public expenditure and myself. We have actions contained within that. We are very much focused on those actions as a collective, working with the other Departments.

We do need to challenge the current assumptions regarding where we can get more engagement from employers and the enterprise space. The Department has never set up these types of initiatives before and is taking them really seriously. We want to share practical solutions with other businesses. We have a strong relationship within the establishment of the enterprise forum and the retail forum and we have had good engagements to date. We had our first meeting back in February. Bank of Ireland and Circle K presented with regard to their best practices and it gave a clear indication in terms of where businesses and their leadership commitments lie, how we can embed and manage training and support in many of these companies and that they have an inclusive recruitment practice and partnerships with specialist organisations. They demonstrate how inclusive employment delivers real business benefits. The Senator asked how we were going to oversee an improvement in terms of the employability employment gap. It will be monitored very closely over the lifetime of the strategy and we will be accountable to the Taoiseach, the implementation group, all those who sit in this committee and those who sit across the table with us on a two-year basis. I think it involves two meetings every year so it is really important that we see progress and we see delivery.

What does the Department identify as the main barriers preventing disabled people from accessing employment and what targeted interventions have been prioritised to address these barriers in the Department?

The evidence in the most recent Open Doors Initiative report shows that the barriers still lie in recruitment and workplace design but also in policy. That also highlighted issues around reluctance to provide reasonable accommodation, lack of inclusive recruitment practice managers, not having the training and feeling ill-equipped to support employees. As for what we are doing to try to change that, as a Department we are engaging with local enterprise offices to ensure that all the staff are trained. Enterprise Ireland, our State agency for indigenous Irish businesses, is running a number of programmes to support inclusive entrepreneurs and businesses. While it is not part of its corporate responsibility programme, IDA Ireland is working at a global level with many multinationals that employ over 250,000 people with regard to corporate social justice for a lot of these disabled people. We need to embed that at every level across organisations starting at senior management and to drive that cultural change within organisations. We hope that over the next couple of months, we will have a second meeting with our other partners. There is a tripartite element to this with the Department of Social Protection in terms of the support schemes for employees and employers but also the Department of public expenditure and reform, which looks after the public service. While it continues to maintain the 6% requirement for disabled people, our piece is very much ministerial-led through working with the enterprise forum, the retail forum and all levers across the enterprise system policy area to ensure that the employability gap is reduced.

My apologies for being late but local radio trumps everything.

I think we all agree on that one any way.

I thank the Minister of State and the officials for their attendance. What I am going to say is probably not the direct responsibility of the Minister of State but the issue of employment is really a cross-departmental issue between the Departments of social protection and enterprise. There are significant barriers to the employment of people with disabilities. There are the ones that we all come across such as transport, lack of personal assistance and housing. Those kind of issues come up all the time. We have one of the lowest levels of employment of people with disabilities in the EU. Those who are employed in Ireland, if they are employed at all, are mainly employed in low-paid part-time employment. One of the big reasons for that is the question of the benefits and entitlements people with disabilities would lose were they to attempt to take up employment. I am talking about medical cards, free travel, free fuel and loss of part or all of their disability allowance. We are a bit ahead of ourselves in the sense that the issues I raised are the main issues that have to be addressed first if we are to get people with disabilities into employment. The Minister of State might comment on that point.

That is the reality. People with disabilities should not be worse off if they enter employment. Many fear that they will lose their supports. The Government needs to address that because we want to support more people into the workforce because ultimately, employment is central to every person's dignity, independence and full participation in society. Many people with disabilities want to feel part of or belong to something. We should not look at their ability in isolation. It needs to be holistic and we need to change the culture in regards to how employers look at those with disabilities. That is why I am here today in terms of the enterprise piece because we need to showcase the real success stories within employers that have done this very well. We need to share the practical tools and the guidance but also connect employers with supports and address the misconceptions directly. There is a job of work involved in that as people will question how they can enter the workforce and thereby lose their ability to pay the bills.

Are we anywhere near that?

This strategy was launched and published last year. We are making steady progress. It will take time and there is no denying that. It is prioritised at the highest level of the Government and there is very strong and robust accountability and implementation. This committee is doing the work that is required in terms of holding people to account. We need to lead on it and it is a priority within my Department. I want to see this improve, I want to see it work and it will not be from a lack of effort from our side.

I thank the Minister of State and the officials for their attendance. My apologies, as I am a member of the Oireachtas Committee on Health as well so I was at that committee earlier but I had read the opening statements. My first question is about retention of people with disabilities. Women with disabilities appeared before this committee and told us that they find it more difficult. They have a lot more barriers sometimes. Maybe they have family or different issues. Is the Department doing anything to address those issues?

If we were to look at a European model, where does Ireland fit within that model and is there best practice in other countries we should be looking towards? They are my first two questions.

I thank Senator Byrne for her questions. As regards where Ireland fits, if you look at our public service we fit on a par with other European countries; we do minimum thresholds. However, we want to go beyond that. In terms of the enterprise pillar, our Department's focus is very much on trying to develop the culture within many businesses through the enterprise and retail forums, as well as ensuring we have a research-led action piece that will drive evidence-based policy intervention. That also will be worked on over the coming months.

We want to ensure we can benchmark other countries and to the Senator's point that is important. We have not stopped the work we need to do. We have continued to engage with the local enterprise offices, Enterprise Ireland and the IDA. Again, this is a strong Government partnership. As I said to the Senator's colleagues, the Department of enterprise does not have the policy levers for the supports and schemes but we do have the relationship with many businesses and corporations to drive that cultural change. Ultimately, we want to remove the barriers and to open pathways to many people who feel there is not a pathway to employment for them. We want to do that in a co-ordinated, well managed and practical way, highlighting best practices across the enterprise base for all businesses, so that they can replicate it.

What Circle K and Bank of Ireland presented at the first forum on employment for disabled people was very significant in terms of their management of those with neurodivergence challenges and mobility issues. Many people sitting around that table were engaged in what they could take from that and replicate in their businesses.

While there are many organisations like EmployAbility and those that work with people with disabilities and there are many disability organisations, does the Department have regular contact with them regarding planning for the workforce or how to support people with employment supports going forward? How is that managed?

That is a programme and scheme managed through the Department of Social Protection. Finding placements for those who are on an employability scheme is that Department's function and engagement. We do not have direct engagement with many of those.

Are there any actions the Department of enterprise is looking at to support people in the future to get them into employment? Is there anything the Minister of State would like to raise or highlight that he is looking at?

Again, the forum is the central policy initiative as regards trying to drive that cultural change. Certainly, it is a platform for employers but it can also challenge outdated perceptions, share practical solutions and move employers from awareness to action.

In respect of enterprise supports, we have fully open and accessible supports for people with disabilities with 31 LEOs. We have Enterprise Ireland, which also has an accessible programme. Microfinance Ireland also provides State loans to those with disabilities of up to €50,000. Opportunities exist across the system; we do not have a system where people will find it difficult. We also have the national enterprise hub, with over 250 supports across many State agencies that are available online and which have the accessibility piece, but we need to strengthen awareness, target the online supports and continue with the mentoring and engagement for those with disabilities.

I get the Minister of State's point that he does not have all the levers and schemes and that many of them fall under social protection. However, he sees the forum as a means of making movement on this issue and dealing with the disability and employment gap.

It met first in February but has it met since then?

We will meet again later this year. There is a meeting around the employment pillar with the Departments of Social Protection and public expenditure in the coming weeks but we hope to schedule a further engagement on that forum later this year.

I might have missed this but how many are on this forum?

As you have all the enterprise forums, it could be up to 30 or 40 members of the enterprise forum and then you have members from different disabled people's organisations. We have left it for those who want to engage in it to do so. We have self-advocates, people with intellectual disabilities and people from the Irish Deaf Society. We have those who are physically there and those who are online. There probably are over 40 different-----

It is as accessible as it can be and it is open to all necessary groups. I imagine that for the Minister of State's discussions regarding social protection, a huge amount of this is going to fall under the work and access scheme to allow for reasonable accommodations and the wage subsidy scheme. We have heard from employers, particularly those like Rehab and Mr. Price that employ a greater number of people with disabilities, where there is a greater cost. However, even though there was an increase in the individual payment as regards the wage subsidy scheme, that did not sufficiently take into account those that employ a greater number and that is something that needs to be looked at. I imagine this came up at the meeting anyway.

The Minister of State also mentioned self-employment. We also heard from those who said there is a need for a wage subsidy scheme for entrepreneurship or self-employment for those with a disability who obviously have those added costs.

At that forum, we have the Department of Social Protection, which engages on any challenges from the DPOs in respect of the wage subsidy scheme. As I said earlier, that is a matter for the Minister, Deputy Calleary, but it does play an important role in supporting employment and I accept that. We have seen changes, in terms of its review, where the minimum hours were reduced from 21 to 15.

I accept there have been changes but we need to review it altogether. We have heard from employers involved in respect of work and access. As the Minister of State knows, there will be people within social protection - and the Minister himself I am sure - who would not agree that it is absolutely fit for purpose at the minute.

It is a matter of engaging with the people who have the lived experience and know how it works. That is both the possible employees and the employers. It is about making sure we have action on it. From the Minister of State's point of view, when we talk about workability and employability, it falls into who would do this piece of work. Over the years, while I have heard from the likes of Trinity, which has its own projects on making connections with employers, and several other educational institutes that do this, we probably need a greater amount of State involvement. The Minister of State has the connection to businesses; it is a matter of selling and making sure the schemes work. It is then making sure we have the staff to facilitate those who want to use the service. I assume these discussions are happening at the forum.

Could we get an update on where that is at, as well as on the discussions the Departments are having on trying to make something fit for purpose and a framework that allows for getting a greater number of disabled people into employment and away from poverty?

Let us talk turkey.

I agree with the sentiment in the Deputy's points. In terms of the first programme plan around the employment piece, there are specific actions called out that are related to the Departments of enterprise and Social Protection. Much of what the Deputy is talking about is related to the Department of Social Protection. However, they are all interlinked and we must continue to engage with the Department of Social Protection. Ultimately, this is about bridging the employability gap that is currently there. We need to reduce that so we all need to work together to determine what initiatives or improvements we introduce. We must work in tandem.

There is real opportunity within enterprise. Those with disabilities can start and grow a business and can create employment themselves. Deputy Ó Murchú made a point about self-employed people. There are grants available through the normal process involving the LEOs. Enterprise Ireland also has an accessible programme for entrepreneurs. We started a new national accelerator programme under Startup Ireland. There is a lot stuff happening-----

We need to look at the wage subsidy scheme as well. I know that does not fall within the enterprise remit but-----

Yes, and again that is to provide direct support for the employee. We are very much open to ensuring that there are accessible and designated schemes in place for businesses and new entrepreneurs who want to start a business.

Can we get a written update in relation to the work of the forum?

Yes, for sure. We can provide that to the Chair.

The Minister of State's brief also includes retail and SMEs. I have a query relating to sole traders from a constituent which demonstrates a recurring pattern. The involvement of Circle K, Bank of Ireland and others in the forum is very admirable. However, they can access schemes for personal assistants and for making accommodations but a disabled person who is entrepreneurial and who operates as a sole trader does not have access to the same measures. What is being done in that area for equity?

The forum is only meeting twice a year. Are its meetings very long? What are the timelines and the accountability measures for accordance with strategy?

The meetings are two-hour sessions. We only had our first meeting on 26 February. It was attended by more than 20 different stakeholders from across business, Government and disability services. In terms of the thematics and the specific challenges, there is commonality across many of them. For example, planning statements for retail outlets should include universal design. We need to shine a spotlight on how accessible and inclusive retail units are. A question that was raised on many occasions was whether there are accessible toilet facilities. We want to generate best practice in regard to that. We will engage with the Department of housing in regards to how that is facilitated in any newer developments to ensure that the newer designs are very much incorporating universal design elements.

In terms of the grants and supports for sole traders, we can engage further with the LEOs on that. It is something that we need to look at.

The self-employment piece needs to be looked at. I go back to the fact that the Department has a relationship with businesses and enterprises. In its engagement with them, I imagine they have pointed out the issues they have with certain schemes and the difficulty and effort involved in engaging with them. I refer to schemes like the work and access scheme and the issue of facilitating a disabled person and his or her advocate or an organisation to allow that piece to happen. I imagine that must have come up because we have heard it multiple times. We need to see a plan to deal with it and to streamline the process.

The ambition at the end of this programme and strategy is that we will have implemented a number of actions in terms of best-in-class, practical solutions.

What is the timeline?

Well, the strategy is out to 2030 but we are accountable every time we have the delivery and monitoring programme. The committee will see regular updates in regards to the research, the accessible programmes from Enterprise Ireland and the LEOs, the ministerial-led forum and so on. Members will have access to the minutes outlining who has spoken or presented at forum meetings and so on. We want this to be transparent and we want to see progress. We want to see things being done but to the Deputy's point, the schemes are in the Department of social protection. That Department supports the employer and the employee in regards to the-----

Yes, but the Department of enterprise will probably get feedback from the Department of Social Protection more quickly than this committee.

Absolutely, yes.

Again, I thank the Minister of State and his officials for coming in. I want to stress again the importance of this subject and to ask the Minister of State to do his level best. Inclusivity is so important to ensure that people reach their potential in life.

We have come to the end of our discussion. I thank everyone for their contributions, particularly the Minister of State and his team. I propose that we meet in private session to deal with some housekeeping matters. Is that agreed? Agreed.