Apologies have been received from Deputies Ruairí Ó Murchú, Aisling Dempsey and Liam Quaide and Senator Nikki Bradley.

The purpose of today's meeting is to resume our discussion on transport for people with disabilities. On behalf of the committee, I welcome Ms Mary Considine, chief executive officer; and Mr. Ronan Murphy, head of customer care and accessibility, Iarnród Éireann; and Ms Jean O'Sullivan, chief executive officer; and Mr. Christian Clarke, accessibility manager, Bus Éireann.

I must read a note on privilege and housekeeping matters. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make her, him or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be considered damaging to the good name of that person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. The evidence of witnesses who are physically present or give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege.

I remind members of the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings, they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. Members of the committee attending remotely must do so from within the precincts of Leinster House.

I call the witnesses to make their opening statements.

I thank the Cathaoirleach, Deputies and Senators for inviting us to take part in today’s session. I will summarise the document that I submitted. I would like to acknowledge the many people with disabilities, their families, carers and representative organisations, whose lived experience continues to shape discussions, such as today's meeting, and challenge all of us to deliver better and more inclusive public services. I am pleased to be joined by my colleague Mr. Christian Clarke, Bus Éireann’s accessibility manager.

In my opening remarks, I will outline Bus Éireann’s services and initiatives to support people with disabilities, while also placing those services in the context of the vital role public transport plays in connecting communities across Ireland. For many people, accessible public transport is about much more than getting from one place to another. It is about independence and an opportunity to participate in everyday life. It enables people to get to work or attend education and other life matters on a daily basis. It can also reduce isolation, support carers and give people the confidence to travel independently. We recognise our responsibility to provide those services, and we are committed to continuing to improve them. Bus Éireann is committed to the provision of a fully accessible public transport system, incorporating wheelchair-accessible vehicles and infrastructure throughout the country so customers can travel with confidence, whether they live in urban or rural Ireland.

All Bus Éireann vehicles operating on our public service obligation, PSO, and Expressway services are wheelchair accessible. Our city and town fleet, which we operate under contract with the National Transport Authority, NTA, is 100% low-floor accessible vehicle across all scheduled services. While accessible vehicles are fundamental, we recognise that true accessibility depends on every part of the journey working together, from the bus stop to the onboard experience and the confidence that passengers have in using the service. Our independent travel support service has been a valued new addition to Bus Éireann. It supports passengers aged 18 and over with additional needs to build confidence and skills in using the public transport network independently. Since beginning in 2008, the service has expanded to Bus Éireann in Cork, Waterford, Galway and Limerick, with further expansion planned for Drogheda and Dundalk. During 2025, we supported 1,684 journeys, representing an increase of 48% on the previous year. We would like to thank the NTA for its support in funding this initiative.

Bus Éireann also operates the school transport scheme on behalf of the Department of Education and Youth. Each day, we transport more than 181,000 pupils to and from school, including 24,000 children with special educational needs, which is an increase of 12% compared to 2024. For many families, these services are essential. They provide certainty and reassurance, helping children to access education while supporting their parents and carers in their daily lives. Our role is to deliver those services in line with the guidelines governing the scheme, as determined by the Department.

Listening to people with lived experience is central to how we operate our services. I thank the members of the disability user group who are in the Visitors Gallery today. They are our voice at the many opportunities to meet with the group and their insights help us to identify barriers that might otherwise be overlooked and ensure that accessibility improvements reflect the everyday experience of our customers. We know that meaningful progress comes through partnership and we greatly value the ongoing engagement of disability organisations and advocacy groups across the country.

While all of our PSO, Expressway and regional coach fleet is wheelchair accessible, the accessibility of some coach routes continues to be affected by individual bus stops that are not fully accessible. We continue to work closely with the NTA and local authorities to remove the barriers so that accessible vehicles are matched by accessible infrastructure. Infrastructure alone is not enough, however. We are also supporting greater awareness. For example, something as simple as blocked footpaths or a vehicle parked at a bus stop can mean the difference between someone travelling independently or being unable to complete their journey on that day. Such campaigns as Keep It Clear and Make Way Day demonstrate our support in relation to making sure we have more accessible streets and public spaces for everyone.

Continued progress depends on strong collaboration between the agencies and sustained investment. Accessibility benefits far more than one group of passengers. It improves the experience for older people, parents travelling with young children and people recovering from illness or injury and other mobility issues. It is important to remember that accessibility extends well beyond physical mobility. It includes supporting people with visual and hearing impairments, neurodivergent passengers, people with intellectual disabilities and many others whose needs may not be visible. It also means recognising the importance and role of families and carers. For that reason, accessibility should be embedded from the very beginning of every transport project rather than added retrospectively, wherever possible. We strive to make sure that this is reflected in all of the planning that we are working through at the moment. Our vision is that one universal design is considered from the outset and is in line with the EU Accessibility Act.

We have made significant progress in improving accessibility, but we know that for many people, barriers to travel still remain. Our commitment is to continue working in partnership with the disability community, listening to lived experience and ensuring that accessibility is not simply a standard we meet, but a principle that shapes every decision we make. When public transport is accessible, people are more connected to their communities, more independent in their daily lives and better able to fully participate in society. This is a goal that benefits everyone. We are delighted that the spotlight continues in this area.

Iarnród Éireann’s vision is for rail to be the backbone of an integrated, sustainable and accessible public transport network for the whole country. We are committed to continuous improvements in accessibility, with the overall, ultimate objective of universal access for all our customers. We have a dedicated accessibility officer and we engage regularly with disability organisations and service providers through our disability user group and direct one-to-one meetings with the various organisations.

The focus of our work is twofold, first, to maximise the quality of service with the infrastructure and facilities we now have and, second, to ensure that as our investment programme, funded through the National Transport Authority, is delivered, a key part will be that we are continuously striving to deliver tangible improvements to improve accessibility.

We have a customer experience team that assists customers with disabilities on their journeys on all rail routes throughout the country. Our customer experience teams assisted over 65,000 passengers with a disability last year. We work to continue to enhance that assistance service. In that regard, later this year, we will introduce a new customer assistance system across the network to be delivered by Transreport. The platform will transform how assisted travel is managed and delivered, with stronger visibility across assistance requests, co-ordination and handovers. All of this will assist in improving the customer experience. The system will be phased in across our network by the end of the year.

Having assisted over 65,000 passenger journeys last year, a figure which is growing year on year, a platform like this will streamline the management of requests across stations, teams and multiple co-ordination points, ensuring a better experience for everybody using our network. With support available at every station, the new system removes the need for customers to contact Iarnród Éireann staff directly. Instead, customers can submit, amend or cancel requests at any time via the app, website or call centre, offering greater independence, convenience and confidence when planning journeys. We are really grateful to Barry O’Donnell, a member of our disability user group, who joined a recent workshop with staff on the new solution to emphasise the importance of the new system for customers with a disability.

Furthermore, all of our customer-facing staff are provided with disability awareness training. Feedback has been overwhelmingly positive since the start of this training in January of last year. So far, 650 of our staff have trained at Vision Ireland's world-leading Wayfinding Centre. The access ambassadors are key to our training programme. These are people with lived experience of different disabilities and are part of each training session. In addition, sensory packs are available for customers with additional sensory challenges. Our disability user group advised on the contents of these packs. They are provided free of charge and have proved extremely popular with customers. To date, we have distributed over 7,500 packs and further distribution is planned for later this year.

Our disability user group was also involved in the design phase of the station wayfinding project, with several consultation sessions at Killester Station, which was used as the pilot station due to its proximity to the Central Remedial Clinic and the Irish Wheelchair Association. The programme of replacement has been completed at all of our 147 stations. The positive feedback has really been encouraging. Again following consultation with our disability user group, the quieter coach was launched on the Dublin to Cork route in 2022. We are now in discussions with Translink about expanding that concept when the new Enterprise fleet is introduced on the Dublin-Belfast route later this decade. The JAM card is available for our customers with non-visible disabilities. Ms O'Sullivan mentioned this earlier on. It is about that "just a minute" opportunity to interact with our staff. Some 1,300 of our front-line staff have received JAM card training and cards are available from all major stations throughout the network.

There are many other initiatives under way. I will just give some examples. We have worked to reduce the notice period to one hour at 15 of our major stations. We have worked with the Irish dementia group to deliver enhanced provision for customers with dementia. Staff training workshops with Epilepsy Ireland have taken place. We have opened a new sensory pod at Kent Station in Cork. This is designed to help prevent and manage sensory overload for people using the station. We have a quarterly accessibility newsletter with the latest updates. We have training for customer service officers in Irish Sign Language. As I mentioned, there is a wayfinding technology pilot at Connolly Station for visually impaired users.

As we move forward in delivering our wider investment programme, accessibility will be integral to the design and a major area of focus for our capital investment programme. By way of example, we are improving existing lifts and installing new lifts and footbridges at stations that were previously inaccessible. The lift programme is funded by the NTA. Over 50 lifts have benefited from upgrades since 2020. Works range from complete replacements to control panel and other system renewals. In addition, most of our stations with lifts have a lift call system in operation. This system provides monitored access to lifts to prevent antisocial behaviour, a significant factor in issues with the availability of lifts in the past. Following consultation with Voice of Vision Impairment and Vision Ireland, new signage was rolled out at stations with the lift call system. We also have a new lift programme. This prioritises stations where one platform-----

I am sorry but I will have to ask Ms Considine to wrap up.

That is fine. I will fly through this. I have covered a lot of the accessibility issues in my opening statement. We have planned programmes for the stations at Boyle, Claremorris and Dromod.

I will wrap up by saying that in all our future capital programmes, we are building independent access into our fleet design. On the new DART fleet being provided by Alstom, the way these trains will interface with the platform will enhance independent access. Accessibility is also being built into the design of our new fleet on the Dublin-Belfast route, which is to be supplied by Stadler. We are also working with Age Friendly Ireland. We have accreditation for the stations at Kilkenny and Ballybrophy and a number of other stations are going through the walkability audit at the moment. I have referred to these in my statement. Importantly, we have introduced Changing Places facilities in many of our major stations. This started in Connolly Station and there are now also facilities in Heuston Station and Colbert Station. The new Ceannt Station, which is to open later this year, has such a facility built in.

I am joined today by my colleague, Ronan Murphy, who is head of customer care and accessibility. We are more than happy to take questions from members. I appreciate that I have rushed through the statement but a lot of the detail is in there.

I propose that the opening statements be published on the committee's website. Is that agreed? Agreed. I will now invite members of the committee to put their questions. As they will know, there are specific agenda items scheduled for discussion today. Each member has seven minutes. That is to include answers from the witnesses.

I welcome the witnesses and thank them for their contributions. I use the bus and rail services quite a bit. I notice that the opening statements refer to various supports for people with disabilities. I was not aware of those. To what extent are disability groups and organisations, individuals and the general public aware of them? An information campaign may be necessary. I do not recall seeing signs for any of these support services on either buses or trains. I might be wrong about that.

It is very welcome that both services run consultations with disability user groups. To what extent is there consultation, including surveys, with individuals? There is sometimes quite a bit of difference between what a user group might recommend and what individuals might recommend. Do surveys like that take place? How are they done? How effective are they in making changes?

How are passengers with sensory, intellectual and neurodivergent disabilities accommodated? I notice that Irish Rail has the quieter coach. What is the schedule for implementing that idea on a wider scale? It is already in place on the Dublin-Cork route. What is the timescale for that? I have a similar question in relation to buses. I imagine it is more difficult. Does Bus Éireann currently do anything in that direction? If not, does it have any proposals in that regard?

The other point is that everybody's aim is that persons with disabilities would be able to travel independently. I am wondering, in relation to both services, how close we are to that. What are the current barriers to getting to that stage? What would the witnesses recommend that we as a committee put to the Government to overcome those barriers?

It is important to engage with users. That is why we have the disability user group. It represents more than 11 organisations. Mr. Murphy and his team constantly engage with users. It is quite prominent on our website how to access services, and what is available, but we are very conscious that we need to improve on that continuously.

The Deputy mentioned the quieter coach. Our priority is to try to deliver that on the longer services, the intercity services. It has been in operation since 2022 on the Cork service. We are designing it into the new Enterprise fleet that will provide the Dublin–Belfast service. Ultimately, as we start to introduce more new fleet into our company and service, we will be able to accommodate that.

On the challenge at the moment, we all know we have a lot more to do. We are operating with an older fleet on some of the services, particularly in the commuter areas. As we transition a new fleet into service, we will be able to improve the offering. For example, in the design of the new DART fleet, we worked with the disability user groups to make sure that we could facilitate independent access. The design, flush with the platform, was a result of that interaction with user groups and their input. We are doing the same with the design of the new Stadler fleet for the Enterprise service. It is about working with users to get their feedback and identifying how we can constantly improve. Many of the initiatives that Mr. Murphy and his team are rolling out right across the network are based on feedback that we get from our customers on a continuous basis.

We are very conscious that we are on a journey and have a lot more to do. We are very focused on that. Accessibility and sustainability are absolutely integral to our strategy. We want to deliver a public transport system that is accessible for all. We have lots of work yet to do, but we are very committed to it.

In addition, we have an accessibility newsletter, which Ms Considine mentioned earlier. There are about 150 key contacts across the country, including people in disabled persons organisations and traditional organisations. That is to get the message out that we have an assistance service. It is quite prominent on our website. We try to get the message out through a number of different strands.

We are seeing huge growth. Last year, there was 20% growth in the assistance service, so there is growth year on year. When the UK introduced an assistance system like the one we are going to use by the end of the year, the increase was twofold. At the moment, it is a manual system and it goes into a book. With the new system, we will be able to record properly the number of assists that we give.

The Deputy mentioned individuals. The NTA has mystery shoppers, who go around looking at the services individually and seeing what standards exist. Across the board, we have come out very favourably on that. The feedback in general is very positive.

On accessibility on services, we will have the new fleet, as Ms Considine mentioned, this time next year, and then the enterprise fleet, which will also have level access. As some members of the group in the audience here have said, level access is a game-changer for accessibility.

In terms of bus services, it is more complicated, particularly for people who are neurodivergent and visually impaired. We are working to do whatever is within our control, including reducing the number of canned announcements. My own son is in the disability community and I travel a lot with him at weekends on buses. We sometimes have to bring earphones because sometimes it is the passengers who heighten the sensory needs as opposed to what is in our control.

On school transport, because it is very parent led, particularly in terms of special educational needs, there are a lot of individuals who come forward seeking different supports. What I have described might work for them.

We are trying to figure out how, now that we have a lot of supports for adults moving towards independent travel on transport, to achieve the best approach. We are working with the Department of Education and Youth to start that programme earlier from a schools point of view so that there is no big change as the individuals go forward.

With regard to the barriers, we are constantly advocating, to the Government and the NTA, significant investment in infrastructure. We all know that there have been decades of underinvestment in transport, and we are all working very hard to catch up.

I thank all the witnesses for meeting us this morning. This is probably one of the most important areas of feedback that we have received from other guests who have been here with us. The two key areas are reliability and the journey. I believe the phrase used is "journey chain", but it is a case of connectivity and, maybe, using different modes of transport. It is excellent to hear of the witnesses' plans and I commend them on their work to date, but it would be remiss of me not to raise the gaps that have been raised with us here, and individually by constituents.

I am in County Meath. It is a county under strong urban influence, so we are heavily reliant on public transport. Just under 70% of our adult population commutes out of the county, and there are people with varying abilities who would like to use public transport more. The question is how we can improve the experience for them.

I will proceed to my questions. When the witnesses link in with local authorities, what format does that take? How frequently do they meet? What types of subject matter are up for discussion? How is performance monitored? The next question is for both organisations. Apart from the use of NTA mystery shoppers, how can passengers with different abilities give their feedback? Maybe it is at the bus stop when a bus does not show or where there is a delay to the arrival of a train. It may also be about the experience on the bus and navigating the TFI app. It is quite challenging for somebody without a disability, never mind somebody with one.

I want to flag two particular issues. The first is Irish Rail's M3 Parkway. Off-peak, there is a change required. Passengers have to disembark at Clonsilla, move along the platform and then take another train. The second issue will affect day service users in Ratoath, County Meath. I am sorry to be parochial, but it is going to have a significant impact for six weeks. The Ballybin Road is to be closed and among the affected are day service users from Rehab and the Prosper Meath group who have made phenomenal progress in their independent living skills. The rerouting, on which I have spoken with the witnesses' team, is under discussion, but it is a matter of raising the flag at a senior level.

I am very keen on interaction with local authorities for both organisations and on how customers can give reliable feedback, whether on the platform, at the bus stop or on the actual bus or train.

We deal with local authorities regularly, mainly at the moment due to disruption owing to roadworks of any kind, but also in terms of bus infrastructure. We are rolling out significant bus infrastructure across the country, funded by the NTA. A lot of work has happened in this regard. Particularly on the accessibility side, it means ensuring that kerbs, bus stops and shelters, and also the colour of bus stops, are appropriate as we move forward with universal design.

When it comes to day users, particularly in the adult services, it is important for us always to be aware of what is coming up. Typically, we would get that information from the local authorities or from the day services themselves. We need to be able to support workarounds. It is not always possible because, sometimes, the vehicles cannot actually get down the other roads, particularly in rural locations, but we do try.

The Deputy made a good point regarding liability. As we go forward, there will be more real-time information at some bus stops. Predominantly, we use a lot of social media or apps to provide that information. However, that does not work for everyone, so we need to work out how that could be a little more inclusive. There is nothing worse than standing at a bus stop and not knowing what is going to happen next. Obviously, we are talking more about buses there.

A lot of work is going on between the agencies. Irish Rail, Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann work very collaboratively to try to see how we can link up on services, including at rail stations where somebody might need to leave the rail station and move to a bus transfer, etc. There is a lot of work there in the current designs because there is a lot of investment going into infrastructure. However, there is a long way to go on that.

When Ms O'Sullivan talks about needing to work on the visual real-time elements, is there actually a project planned or is there a timeline for something like that?

The current plan is to roll out real-time information in the first place because it is not everywhere. However, we need to understand what other types of technology could be used. Recently, Mr. Clarke and I have been working with a company called Mobility Mojo, which maps different locations, such as all of Accenture's buildings across the world, for everybody who might have an accessibility need. We need to start using different types of technology that we can work on with the NTA. It is not a current project but we are investigating it with companies that now have a broader spectrum of offerings in that area.

Presumably, the witnesses would link in with the disabled persons organisations in that process, so that it is not just their own company and the possible provider. Rather, it would be a three-way approach.

Mr. Clarke and I are investigating how it could be used, and then we will bring in the wider piece on whether the technology is something that is not very expensive but very important to our websites. The company has done some great work in mapping out a whole building, including where the toilets and signage would be, and being inclusive in the fact that accessibility impacts many people within the disability community. However, it is a project at a very early stage that we are just investigating now.

I will just jump in there. One of the major issues is the fact that a customer's journey begins before they get on the bus. It is about when they are thinking about wanting to use our services and how we can improve that offering. Obviously, when they are on the bus, we have the audio and visual announcements, of which 96% are now complete. Those are very useful for the accessibility community in helping them plan their journey and travel independently.

As regards connecting different modes of travel, the independent travel support service works with Irish Rail for our service users. We have service users in Galway and Cork who use commuter rail, and we will liaise with Irish Rail so that they can broaden their horizons. It is all about opening up social equality for service users.

We deal with different councils for different reasons. It might be with the travel information team, so if a day service tells us about a specific area that has an issue, for example, infrastructure at a bus stop, we can talk to the council there. This is where the disability user group and real-life experience is very important, because they know the spots that are tricky and we can improve on. They also normally have very good relationships with the local authorities. It is about collaborating with all the stakeholders to make sure that we can make as much difference as possible and as quickly as possible.

I welcome everyone here this morning. I thank the witnesses for their opening statements and for giving up their time to come in here. This is a very important subject. For anyone to live as independently as they can, transport plays a huge part. I would love to see the day when someone with a disability can just decide they will go to Cork or Dublin, and there will be a set-up there for them where everything will work seamlessly. Hopefully, we will get to that stage.

I will start with Iarnród Éireann. Ms Considine said that the organisation had assisted approximately 65,000 passengers last year, which is great. What feedback does Iarnród Éireann receive on their experiences and what is the most common accessibility issue raised in that feedback?

I thank Senator O'Mahony. The Senator mentioned that we had 65,000 users last year, and that has grown again this year. Overwhelmingly, the feedback is quite positive. There will be individual cases - there always are, and we need to deal with them - where someone raises a particular issue with us, but they are very minimal. What is key for those users is that we reduce the notice period to give them more flexibility and, as the Senator rightly said, facilitate independent access as we move forward.

As I outlined in my statement, where we do not have that access on trains today or where people need to be assisted, our team works on a notice period. We have reduced that down to a one-hour notice in our 15 major stations, which is well below the regulatory standard of 24 to 48 hours' notice. People will turn up without notice and we endeavour to do everything we can to support them, even if we do not have the advance notice. To ensure that we have a team available to support them, though, we request that people give us notice.

Our people have all been trained, so they work very well and some of the feedback is very positive. People go over and above to help our customers, and that is something we want to continue to do. It is a very important part of our overall customer experience, because we want public transport to be accessible for everyone. Not only are we focusing on assisting people with disabilities, but we are also very conscious that not all disabilities are visible. That is why we have done the "just a minute", JAM, training.

It is about making sure that all of our staff are trained to help our customers, because if you improve the customer experience for one cohort of people, you are improving it for everybody. We are very focused on that, but we acknowledge that there are times when everything does not work out. We will always look into that and get back to people. We are apologetic if that ever happens, but it is very minimal.

Mr. Murphy might want to add something to that.

Last year, out of the 65,000, we had 11 fall downs, which was where the service did not go as it should have. I have said it before publicly that it is like getting a dagger in the back; one case is too many. It might be a ten-minute delay, where somebody is assisting somebody else and getting back to that service.

Irish Rail obviously learns from them.

Exactly. We do a review of each case, we are in regular contact with the customer, and we come back and see what we can do to improve the experience for the next case.

We are also introducing an automatic solution. At present, our staff do not get any reminders if there is an assist, so it is all a manual service. In the future, they will get a reminder text to say, for example, "Margaret is coming up for assistance in an hour's time."

That is a good idea.

It will give us the capability to enhance the service we have. However, we get daily comments from people praising the staff, who are oftentimes going the extra mile. They are bringing people out to the Luas stop, the bus stop or to the taxi. They are going above and beyond on a daily basis.

That is good to hear.

Turning to Bus Éireann, there is a big problem where I come from in west Cork with bus stop accessibility. The buses are accessible but the bus stop is not. Will the witnesses expand on whether Bus Éireann is frequently in touch with the NTA and local authorities, if it has a plan going forward and if there is a timeframe? It is awful for the bus to be accessible yet the person cannot get on.

Our biggest concern now is that we have a fully accessible fleet but we do not have fully accessible infrastructure. As Ms Considine and Mr. Clarke mentioned, it is very important that when the passenger is starting off, they at least know what is accessible. This allows the person to prepare their journey. We are working with the NTA, not just on funding, but also on the whole planning situation to build all of that infrastructure and to ensure that we are putting in new bus stop infrastructure. The committee has seen some of our bus stops. Some of them are in hedges and have been there for decades just because there was something that used to be there in the locality, etc.

As part of the plan of works, the country in general is being mapped out for bus stop infrastructure. Within that there is the universal design piece that I spoke about earlier, but it is going to take a significant period of time.

How long will it roughly take?

Even with the investment, it just takes a longer period of time to roll out all of those infrastructure projects. I do not have a timeline for when they will all be completed, but it is a key priority for the business.

Bus Éireann is very aware of it.

Yes.

Ms O'Sullivan is correct that the infrastructure is the key element, but another side of it is the confidence of service users. Are service users confident they can use even the accessible stops? That is something that we have been attacking with gusto. For example, we have the wheelchair familiarisation events where we take a bus out to a location and we talk to all of the organisations with wheelchair service users and people with mobility issues. They can come and try to get on and off a bus in a controlled environment, which gives them the confidence to do so. We have had people who have not travelled for years because they are too scared to travel or they have an inappropriate chair. They came to these events and are now travelling.

That is great.

It is a pincer movement because it can change lives and they change ours as well-----

Absolutely, yes.

-----but we need to give them the skills and the confidence. Some of it is just them thinking that they can take their own time. Some of them are flying, and some take 20 minutes, but if they want to take 20 minutes, we will let them take 20 minutes. We will go and buy them a coffee, and they can gather themselves. It is twofold, but we are lucky in Cork because we have the independent travel support service there and it is flying. We have Mr. Delaney from the disability users group and other organisations such as the Irish Guide Dogs for the Blind. We have a strong base to work with collaboratively to help things move forward and as the infrastructure catches up, we can really start to push forward.

When it all comes together.

Hopefully.

I thank the witnesses. I apologise for not being here for their opening statements but I have read them, so I am aware of the issues. I also acknowledge and congratulate Ms Considine on her new role. No more than the Cathaoirleach, I worked with her a lot in her previous role in Shannon Airport. I wish her the best.

When I knew I was coming to today's meeting, I reached out to one or two people with disabilities I know, just to get a flavour of some of their thoughts. I have a question from James Casserly, with whom Irish Rail and Bus Éireann are probably familiar as he did an accessible journey throughout Europe and Ireland. He asked if there is any update on Bus Éireann making provision for two wheelchairs on buses? Could I also get an update on the new travel assistant programme?

We changed the name to the independent travel support service because we felt it better encapsulated what it was all about. We have expanded massively. We started in Cork in 2022 with two people. We now have 13 people on the team across five counties, Cork, Limerick, Galway, Waterford and Louth. We have done 5,000 assists to date helping different service users in all sorts of situations and from all sorts of organisations. We reached some milestones recently. We had our first service user from the Traveller community and our first refugee service user. We have had people who have not travelled for years, as I just said, and they are travelling now.

People complain that the service is not available throughout the country and ask why Bus Éireann cannot provide it everywhere. Our challenge is to get the right person in the right role to do it. It takes a special kind of person and a special set of skills. I am lucky that I have the backing of Ms O'Sullivan and the senior leadership team, SLT, to get the right person in that role. I also have the guidance of the disability user group as that helps us expand the net. One of the challenges facing the independent travel support service is to reach the people who are not part of the traditional framework of organisations. We reach them by going to events such as Ablefest, which is Ireland's largest all-inclusive arts festival. I went with James Casserly a couple of years ago. We go to community events, including summer fairs, and meet different organisations just to let them know that we are here, we can help and we can guide them in how they can move forward. A big part of that is school-leaving events. We want to talk to people early and tell them before they leave school. Once a person has left school and turns 18, we can open up their horizons. People are coming to us to get them to jobs, and we also have people who are now travelling and thinking they can get a job. They are also talking to other people and there is the knock-on effect where people wonder what is possible and conclude that the sky is the limit.

That is great. I thank Mr. Clarke. In fairness to Mr. Casserly, he started at a young age to highlight issues and has certainly tried to work positively with organisations to lay down a platform for others.

Absolutely.

I want to give a big shout out to him for that.

In terms of Irish Rail, Mr. Casserly asked me to pass on that the sensory packs for passengers who are neurodivergent and the storyboards to support the journey are brilliant. He was very complimentary about that. Could Irish Rail give me updates on the big lift programme and the new level carriages? I reached out to two people to hear what issues they have. One is in a wheelchair and one has a prosthetic leg, and I know that wheelchair users sometimes find it hard to access trains in some stations.

I thank Senator Byrne for her good wishes and the feedback from James Casserly. In relation to the big lift programme, which I covered it briefly in my opening statement, 50 of our stations have already benefited from a significant upgrade, either with new lifts or the replacement of the control systems. We have also introduced the lift call system. Users can call for assistance and it makes sure that lifts are not being damaged through antisocial behaviour. All of that has been positive and there has been positive feedback. We want to roll that out around the rest of the country because we are very conscious of it. We have 147 stations. We have done 50 and prioritised the most immediate ones that needed an upgrade, but we need to continue that programme throughout the country. We are very conscious of the work that has yet to be done. A lot has been done, but there is more to do.

In relation to independent access for people using our fleet, that is a critical point, and it is something that we are very conscious of in the design of all our new fleet. It is the gap between the train and the platform or the step up that really causes difficulties for users. We have built a feature into the design of our new DART+ fleet, and we hope to see those come into service from the second half of next year. We have ordered 285 carriages with the new design, of an overall potential framework of up to 750. They will be flush with the platforms, so people will be able to access the trains themselves. That is going to be an important feature, and we want to introduce that into all new fleet coming in. We are also building it into the design of the new Enterprise fleet and there will be six wheelchair spaces on trains in that fleet. All of these things will facilitate independent access for users down the road. It is something we are very conscious of. In designing all our new capital programmes, Mr. Murphy and his team work with the capital investment team and the disability users groups to make sure we are getting everybody's input and trying to optimise the design for users.

The lifts were quite topical a couple of years ago. The difference between 2019 and 2025 is a 30% reduction in problems with lift reliability. We have improved by 30%. Again, the day-to-day customer feedback to us is that the performance of the lifts has really improved. Gary Carney in the Gallery is a massive advocate of the lift call because it gives users the confidence that the system is in place, so when a user comes up the reliability is there for them.

Regarding the new fleet, we did a lot of consultation with our user group and, again, the guys in the Gallery were up in Inchicore at our mock-up facility. We had a mock-up fleet.

We had an MDF mock-up first, and then a proper mock-up so the guys coming in could actually see the fleet and give us the feedback. There would have been quite a lot of changes in the design due to that feedback. Again, it is all about consultation with the group and regular feedback.

I was talking to Councillor Darragh McDonald in Wexford. He has a primary medical certificate. He told me that people with primary medical certificates are initially entitled to free travel for all public transport but when they are working, they are not. He needs to use transport more because of his difficulties, and he needs accessibility. There would not be a huge cohort who have primary medical certificates. Does Mr. Murphy think the free transport should continue for somebody who has a profound difficulty in accessing public transport?

The free travel scheme is operated by the Department of Social Protection. We operate the scheme but the entitlements are decided through the Department of Social Protection.

I thank the witnesses for attending. I listened to the opening statements in my office. They contained a lot of detail, particularly that of Ms Considine, who I congratulate on her new role. I know this is an area that she is committed to because she proved it very much in her last role at Shannon Airport. Shannon is definitely the most accessible airport in Ireland, and perhaps also in Europe. I expect that the same principles will percolate down through Iarnród Éireann.

I am somebody with a disability who uses public transport all the time. I am probably the only Member of the Oireachtas who does not drive, to my knowledge, and because of that, I have to travel on Iarnród Éireann to come to Dublin every week. I am lucky enough to be able to operate without assistance. However, an issue has arisen recently. When someone reserves a seat online, there is a little display box with the person's name on it. Sometimes the number is displayed in a reasonably big size but on other trains, it is almost illegible, certainly to me. I would have a fair idea where the seat is but I often have to ask other passengers where the specific seat is. It is not an issue on every train because some have the seat numbers printed in a bigger size. Are there plans to roll out big seat numbers on all trains? From a selfish, personal point of view, it would make life very easy.

It is something that comes up through our user group at times. We do review this. We have regular monthly meetings about our seat reservation system and we go through its performance. Overall, we are looking at the system, which has been there for quite a long time. The Senator may have come across the customer service officers on board. They are there to help people who require assistance.

On that point, I try not to use the customer service officers because other people need them more. I would certainly not like to pre-book through the system. It is under enough pressure without somebody like me using it. I would not necessarily need it if the numbers were big enough. It is a very simple thing. I cannot understand why the numbers cannot be bigger. I do not think it needs review groups, feedback or anything like that. When it can be done in some trains, why can it not be done in all trains?

I thank Senator Conway for his good wishes. I acknowledge clearly the point that he is making about visibility on the reservation system. We have different types of fleet. I am not a technical expert but it might be something to do with the different trains. It is something that we will take away. As Mr. Murphy said, we have had this feedback before. Let us take it away and see what we can do. It is very important feedback. As we are designing our new fleet, user feedback is critical.

Now that I have my own little query out of the way, I will move on to the more general queries. Because of my own personal experience, I get a lot of engagement when I am travelling, in particular from older people regarding their use of the fleet. Iarnród Éireann has done great work at Connolly Station, Heuston Station and other stations. What are the plans for the next couple of years for more rural stations, such as at Ennis, Athenry and other locations? Is there a capital investment plan to make them more accessible? What is Ms Considine's view on that? Is there an immediate or one-to-three-year plan?

We have already had an extensive programme of work over the past five years, since 2020. Again, it was in order of priority for accessibility. We are keen, subject to funding from the NTA, to continue to roll that out. In particular, at those stations where we do not have accessible platforms, we are keen to address that. I will ask Mr. Murphy to give more detail on that.

The programme is a €10 million programme this year. We are funded annually by the NTA. We are looking to open a station with lifts and footbridges at Boyle, and our user group will be there on Thursday to have a look at that. Last year, we did Maynooth, Athy and Rathmore. I can give the Senator the full detail of the programme of works, which is quite detailed. We plan in advance and get planning permission for the next year for different stations. It is a prioritised programme of works based on accessibility needs if stations are not accessible.

I have a final question regarding out of order lifts. I have seen the frustration first hand. Has the number of lifts out of order or temporarily out of service improved? Does Iarnród Éireann have figures on the number of lifts that are out of order?

We were just talking about that before the Senator came in.

My apologies. I was on my way to the meeting.

We have reduced the number by 30% since 2019. The feedback has been very positive. Ms Considine mentioned the lift call system, where we keep the lift closed off, and it is only opened for people who need it. That has seen a real impact for people, with great support from our user group, who were part of that consultation process. We did a huge number of feedback sessions with Voice of Vision Impairment and Vision Ireland to get the signage right.

There are certain practical things that staff on the ground can do, and they are done a lot of the time, in particular, to have the lift ready when a train pulls in. People panic. I see it at Limerick Junction constantly. While it is not going to happen, of course, people are afraid that the Limerick train will pull off without them. Once things move seamlessly, people relax a lot more, particularly people with children with autism and so on. I would ask for protocols on the ground, where possible, so that lifts are ready, and people do not necessarily have to press the call button because the lift is just there and ready.

We all want a seamless service. What I can say, from my 15 years of travelling to the Oireachtas, is that there has been a transformation, not just in Irish Rail, but also in the NTA in general. While there is a long way to go, huge progress has been made. I pay tribute to the staff on the ground. They are the real ambassadors for the two companies. They really make a huge difference. I could count on one finger the number of times I have seen something that was not fair or respectful. That is a huge compliment to the public service nature of what the two companies do. I wish them well.

Before we move on to the second round, I have a few questions. Mr. Murphy mentioned a programme of works. Could he send that on to the committee after the meeting?

Yes, I will do that.

Do we have a list of services that are not wheelchair accessible? I understand that the Limerick to Galway route is often not accessible.

All of our services are accessible. We have a ramp and there is an assistance service to help. Staff would help either the-----

It is wheelchair accessible.

Yes.

I wish Ms Considine all the best in her new role. As Senator Byrne said, we worked closely with her when she was the CEO of Shannon Airport, which has come on leaps and bounds. We hope that Irish Rail progresses as much in the next couple of years.

I have a question regarding the quieter carriage. I use the train service from Limerick weekly and then use the Luas to get here from Heuston Station.

It all works really well. I do not have a disability so it is easier for me, obviously. The quiet coach is a really good addition to the service, not just for people with disabilities but for anybody who wants a quieter place. Why do not we roll it out in more places? What is the issue around that?

It is just to do with the fleet. At the moment, we have it on the locomotive fleet, so it depends on the rail-----

Correct me if I am wrong, but there is nothing different about the carriage. The colour has-----

Yes, it is just the online configuration of the fleet. With the locomotive, it is the set fleet all the time. It is coach G. With the rail car fleet we have, it could be in Cork today or it could be in Galway. We are working through that with the goal of getting-----

Is it where Irish Rail positions the coaches and where they might be? Is that the problem?

Yes, and the configuration of the online-----

Therefore, if I was booking online, they might not be exactly-----

Exactly.

Okay, I get you.

There are some complications with that but we are working through it.

That makes sense. Can both groups explain the disability user groups they have? What is the make-up of them? How often do they meet? What sort of what feedback do we get from them?

We meet four times per year but we also liaise with the individual members as and when. We will have contact with our members. If someone in their organisation wants to talk about issues or raise something, then we can talk about that. A variety of organisations from different accessibility organisations across the country and with different situations are represented. The key is to have people who are willing to collaborate and people who want to use our services and who do use our services because we need the real-life experience. We are lucky in that we have a lot of expertise in the disability user group, but it is an evolving process. Today is actually my anniversary of joining Bus Éireann. This is my third-----

Congratulations.

I thank the Cathaoirleach. I have seen the group evolve since then. We have changed how we are using and why we have it. It is very much to see how we can drive things forward and get the best out of the expertise of the members of the group. We have recently put out to a couple different organisations to try to get a more representative approach. It needs to represent all our customers in terms of the demographics but that is where we can have help from the disability user groups. They have helped us with reconnecting with some organisations, such as Down Syndrome Ireland and people like that. For me, it is all about having the collaborative approach and making sure we can make things better for everyone because if we make it better for the accessibility community, it helps everyone. I am a big believer in understanding that it helps society as well. We will also have people with acquired injuries. I myself am an interesting case because I have cerebral palsy but a couple of years ago, I broke my hip while I was over here. That is an acquired injury. It has changed my perspective, which has been a blessing because it has also meant I can see things from a different perspective. Gary, who is in the Gallery, has come to us via Headway. He is very good at explaining to people the impact of someone having an acquired injury and how that can change their perspective. It is about us opening up that understanding and making sure we get the most out of it.

I thank Mr. Clarke. Does Irish Rail want to come in?

We have a form of disability user group as well. We normally have four formal meetings per year. We are undertaking a review at the moment and we have had informal sessions with the groups. We did one on platforms recently, with one of our team looking for feedback on platforms. We have the group involved in feedback on the new Enterprise fleet in and station visits. We have had quite a lot of feedback outside the regular formal group. I have regular one-to-one contact with Ciarán and Gary in the Gallery and Voice of Vision Impairment. We have regular calls and meetings. Our group has said that we are very accessible to anybody at any time, phone call-wise or through whatever engagement, if people want to meet at any point. Sometimes with the group, there are quite a lot of different organisations, as in Mr. Clarke's case, and it can be a challenge for some of the group to get the point across within that meeting framework. They prefer to have a one-to-one or separate session or phone call, and that has evolved over the last period.

Irish Rail is reviewing the user group.

Yes.

How long has that been going on?

Our last formal meeting was in 2024. We have just appointed Governance Ireland to look at the review, again just to look at the profile of the group and what we are doing. We do regular reviews across the company on different groups we have to see how they might be formalised to the board and to look at the make-up of the group. We have nobody from the older alliance but we are working quite a lot with Age Friendly Ireland. Again, it is just to make sure we have everything covered. We have a number of disability persons' organisations as well as traditional organisations, so it is just about getting the right balance in the group.

I thank Mr. Murphy. We will move on to the second round if people want to come in a second time.

For clarification, obviously, there is a big problem right across the country with bus stops and accessibility. Who is responsible for producing accessible bus stops and, indeed, bus shelters? It is not clear to me who is responsible.

Clonmel, where I come from, is a major urban centre. Clonmel railway station is a very busy spot now and both Bus Éireann and Irish Rail operate from that station. There are excellent staff there. I understand that external groundworks will take place shortly and they are very welcome. Frankly, however, the station itself and the lack of facilities at the station are embarrassing. The station itself is closed. There is no waiting area or toilet facilities. It is just unacceptable. It is obviously difficult enough for passengers in full health but it is particularly difficult and probably horrendous for persons with disabilities. I ask both organisations to look at the situation and, if necessary, even come to see it. I would certainly be prepared to meet them there. It needs to be addressed urgently for the travelling public whether they are disabled or not.

I will come in on the infrastructure piece. Any piece of infrastructure we are engaged in requires planning. That goes through the normal, standard processes of planning and will include the local authorities, etc. However, the funding typically comes from the National Transport Authority, NTA. Those are the two parties that are involved in the infrastructure elements and we may then be then charged with rolling out that project on the delivery. That is that system.

I am not particularly familiar with Clonmel but even in our engagements with the NTA and particularly the CEO, Ms Anne Shaw, she is very clear that the services should be provided in terms of public transport having appropriate facilities both for employees and for customers. That is definitely a key element of the agenda for the NTA. I cannot comment any further on Clonmel because I am not as close to it.

In addition to Ms O'Sullivan's comment, with regard to the interior of the station, we are working with the NTA on the planning phase of that and going through the approvals process to get funding secured to upgrade the interior of the station. We are working with colleagues in Bus Éireann on the exterior of the station, so there are certainly plans in the pipeline to address that. The Deputy's concerns about that station have been relayed to us previously and that is why it has been prioritised now for an upgrade.

Are there any timelines for that?

There are but I just do not have them to hand. It is certainly in the near term. I believe the plans are with the funding authority.

Ms Considine might come back to me on that, please.

We will come back on that and confirm, yes.

I will go first to Irish Rail since we did not get to hear from the representatives. I wish to discuss the M3 Parkway where passengers have to change trains off peak and the possibility of the actual station being open there. We would then have the availability of the excellent sensory pack process.

There is also the journey chain. We could have a bus link to the M3 Parkway for the general population but also for reliability and accessibility of age-friendly and disability services. Those are three areas. Can they be looked at please? I also have a suggestion, if it is possible. There is the impact of vandalism on both services and buses in particular can be out of service. That then impacts reliability. There is also the visual piece of USB hubs, etc. Would the witnesses' consider an advertising campaign on the impact of vandalism on people with different abilities? It might raise public awareness, consciousness and a bit of civility. In the UK, the London and Manchester transport services do that as a matter of course. It may help with reliability and the cost for repair of damages for both organisations.

The transport authority is running a campaign at the moment on vandalism and antisocial behaviour, and about etiquette as regards bags on seats. That is currently running. The sensory packs are available centrally. My team distributes them. I can give the details. With the popularity of the scheme, we cannot keep them in stock. We are going through a procurement process at the moment to get more in. We will open that to the public again in September. We have distributed 7,500 and we have another 2,500 coming in. That will be ongoing over the next couple of years. On the M3, we have the shuttle services. The station is unstaffed at M3 Parkway. There are plans for the Navan link so that whole route is being looked at.

There is the possibility of the station opening as part of the extension to Navan, which we are all thrilled about. The when and how much is the next phase, but it will not be done until then and not in the interim.

No. There are no plans.

I know this is more of an issue for the NTA. There is the linking of the bus. I know the bus service goes to the Navan Road Parkway. However, in the absence of the bus corridor there is a massive time lag between the M3 and the Navan road. If we were to have that interconnection between the bus service and the Irish Rail service, that would be a game-changer. I hear that frequently from older passengers and potential passengers. There is a huge opportunity to increase the market share and turnover of both businesses through that. Will they give that consideration, please?

We will take that away.

I turn to the reporting of reliability. Is there another opportunity for collaboration? There could be QR codes at bus stops or on the bus or train, as opposed to having to go through the TFI route. Is that something they can consider? I hope we meet again, and they can give us updates in this regard. Will they consider it?

Yes.

Brilliant. I thank the witnesses.

I ask both groups about recruitment and ongoing training. In an interview, would the subject of disability come into their heads when hiring someone? Would they pick someone they think would have an appropriate personality to help people with disabilities? Will they also speak about their ongoing training? You can have all the policies in the world, but the person in the front line is the employee helping the person with the disability.

What is key for us with customer-facing staff is empathy. For disability training we have an intensive one-day course at the Wayfinding Centre run by Vision Ireland. They are on-site. There are ten different strands to that training. One thing we have focused on over the past couple of years is non-visible disabilities. We are really getting that point across. Staff in the past might have seen a disability as somebody with a mobility or visual impairment. We have worked closely with the dementia working group and have got it in for sessions separate to the training. There is a one-day piece of training that staff go through, and the feedback has been phenomenal.

Is it ongoing, or is it once-off?

It is once every three years and there is online refresher training after that. We have 650 through it at the moment. We have done work with the Irish Dementia Working Group and do workshops with staff in different locations. We did one with the Connolly staff two weeks ago. We also engage with Epilepsy Ireland and have done some work with DART staff looking at incidents that happened on the service. We constantly look for the right people in the right positions. As Mr. Clarke said earlier about the travel support, our customer service staff on board go through rigorous training separate to the disability awareness training. Again, that is on board, and feedback is really positive from the staff. We went from a period of having driver-operated trains only to having customer service officers on board and feedback has been really positive. As Ms Considine mentioned, we have sign language training operated by one of our staff who is himself a CSO officer and whose parents are both deaf. He does the training for staff at our location in Inchicore. We put 40 of our staff through in that time and there is a growing list of people looking to try to obtain it. That is making an impact on the ground on board our services.

It is very much ongoing.

Yes.

As Mr. Murphy said, we also do all of that training. I also do a lot of work advocating for the disability community, particularly because it is the biggest unemployed community. We have engagement now where we are giving work experience to individuals in that community, which has been enriching. There is one in our cash office in Cork where we have worked with Down Syndrome Ireland and recently in St. Michael's House in Broadstone. That has not only been enriching to the individual who gets the work experience but also to the rest of the team. That shows that real ambassadors are within the workforce, if you are working alongside somebody who needs a little additional support. Sometimes it is helpful to get something on the CV to commence their journey into employment. It is hard to go into employment if you do not have something on the CV initially. Those things are rewarding, and we will continue to look at that.

To give the Senator an idea, another aspect we have brought in for front-line staff is knowledge-boosting roadshows. We will do sessions at a depot on specific conditions. We can talk to staff and give them some specific help on how they can help passengers. A lot of people want to do the right thing but they just do not know how to. We always say it is better to say the wrong thing than to say nothing. People within the accessibility community have had this conversation a million times in a million different ways. People from the disability youth group have helped us with that and they will help us design our next one. We will bring in service users as well. It is about giving the staff a snapshot and the tools to say how they can help. They will see a different perspective and know how doing something little can have a huge impact and make a difference to that person's day. That starts a conversation with front-line staff where they will ask more questions or engage more with service users when they see them out with my team. That is key to making connections with people. We also tell staff to see the person and not the problem.

Yes.

That is the key thing for me. That has been successful, along with wheelchair familiarisation, which has made a huge difference to the service user and staff. It is something we will continue to work on.

I thank the witnesses. I turn to confidence in the system and success rate. They obviously want to deliver a good service. How do they measure those kinds of outcomes? That is a question for both organisations. There is also information technology, which is key for delivery for both organisations. Are there any other changes that perhaps should be made? I will start with those questions.

On satisfaction, we do it in different ways. With the service users, we give them an exit interview.

When they complete the programme they get a certificate of completion, which takes pride of place in their homes. They give us feedback on what did and did not work and they give us rankings. We have also got the customer satisfaction, CSAT, scores, which Michelle Peacock looks after, so we can track that in different areas across the business. We will have anecdotal aspects as well. It is important that we open up the opportunity for people to give us that because it is sometimes difficult for people within the accessibility community to give us their feedback. The systems are not always set up to help them with that. We are working on that and have made really good progress with our accessibility from that aspect, but there is more to do.

We are quite similar. The customer satisfaction surveys give us the flavour for that and then we have the NTA mystery shoppers. Twice a year they give us the feedback on that from mystery shops across the services around the country. These give us a good flavour of where we are at. We would also get daily feedback - positive and negative - from customers. We look at the negative to see where we can improve and look at the positives to make sure that is shared. If it is in relation to a staff member, we have an internal Workvivo site, where we share that positive feedback and make sure that is known throughout the whole organisation.

I have one final question for both organisations. Sometimes for people with a disability, a carriage is not accessible, there is a high step going up to the bus, or the ground is lower or whatever. When people are planning their journey, how do people with a disability let both organisations know in advance that they are going to be boarding the bus or the train at whatever station and there are difficulties? Is it easy for people to link with the organisations and inform them that at a certain station they are going to need a ramp or whatever else?

I will reply from Iarnród Éireann's perspective. We provide assistance with a notice period, which is reduced down to one hour for 15 major stations. They can have assistance available. We mentioned that we are introducing a new app called Transreport. That will be live by the end of the year and will allow people to go on themselves and book, cancel, edit or change their assistance request. As I said, we know we have stations and certain parts of our fleet that are inaccessible without support and that is where we provide assistance. We have people in the stations to assist our customers who need support.

They can contact us to book a wheelchair space on the register of inquiries. We are also making big improvements in our wayfinding. That can help them in the moment. We are doing improvements online so that before they get to a station they can look at it and understand where their issues are. They can then get comfortable with it and approach their journeys in a certain way. It is a situation where there are different strands. There are some people who know the local teams really well. The local teams know them, know when they are coming and they can help them that way. We will always try to help people whenever we can but operationally the more notice we have the more we can help them, and the more we can help service users help themselves as well. That is the key for me. Again, it goes back to making it so that they can travel independently.

I was listening online to the meeting. I will jump straight into my questions, given the time. I thank Iarnród Éireann and Bus Éireann for all the work they are doing and the improvements they are making, especially in engaging with the disabled people's organisations. That is so important. Regarding the 15 stations being under the 24-hours notice now, what are the plans to extend that out? I am from the Mayo constituency. We are rural and really do depend on good public service. It is so difficult to expect anybody to be able to put themselves forward as a strong employee but having to say they will need 24- or 48-hours notice to get to Dublin.

My next question is on the trolley service. I have brought this up repeatedly with Iarnród Éireann, but it really affects people with disabilities and reduced mobility. If you are getting that 7.15 a.m. train from Westport to Dublin and are in wheelchair, and you have to try to get to a shop first and carry a hot cup of tea or something, you are going to be stuck on the train for three and a half hours with no access to food or drink, depending on what you brought yourself. When we look at some older people, they are not even familiar with the fact that the trolley has not been put back in since 2020. It sounds like a silly thing but to be without water or a drink for three and a half hours is a significant issue. I think Iarnród Éireann only has two spaces available for wheelchairs on trains. Is there more capacity to increase that? What changes were made after engagement with DPOs? Those questions are for Iarnród Éireann.

For Bus Éireann, I believe there is only one wheelchair spot and that has to be booked so the seat is removed. Are there plans to have a permanent disability spot on the bus? I thank Jack Kavanagh and Avril Greham from Mayo DPO for helping me with my questions.

I thank the Deputy for her questions. From Iarnród Éireann's perspective, we are endeavouring to reduce the notice period everywhere we can. With the introduction of the app, we are hoping all of that will help to make it easier for users where they can book in advance themselves. In reality, particularly in the more rural stations, where people turn up we do everything we can, even if they have not booked, to make sure they are being supported. With about 50% of our assistance we have not got notice but we are still able to support people. We just prefer to have notice so that we plan and make sure we have somebody there to help. Particularly in stations where one or other of the platforms may not be accessible, we try to make sure the train comes in to the accessible platform. That is where the notice period also helps. It is about everything to try to make it smoother and easier for our customer. We acknowledge some of our fleet are ageing and we are very limited on spaces, but that is something we are conscious of in the design of the new fleets. That will take time. There are no quick answers, unfortunately, particularly when it takes infrastructure or fleet changes, but it is something of which we are very conscious and that we are designing into all our future capital projects to make them more accessible.

On the Deputy's point about catering on the trains, it is very much central in our plans going forward. Unfortunately, and the Deputy is probably aware of the history there, we do not have funding through the NTA for anything other than the catering on the Cork service, which does provide-----

From the perspective of the people in Mayo, we used to have a catering café and we used to have a trolley-----

I understand.

-----so the funding issue does not really wash with our customers who already had it. We just feel our trolleys are gone to Cork.

I totally appreciate that. We went to market and are trying to find a way we could do it without significant subvention. We are hoping in quarter 3 of this year to be able to run out an initial pilot on one of the intercity routes. If that works, we hope to be able to then expand it. We are trying to find a way of doing it without costing the Exchequer because are not funded for it. We are very conscious it is something our customers expect and if we are talking about improving customer experience we need to be able to meet their needs. We are also conscious, particularly going into the hotter summer days, that we make sure if there are any delays or anything else, we have water available for passengers. We are very conscious of that.

In addition to that, on the piece about the DPO and the changes made, we have a significant engagement. One example is the quieter coach, which we introduced in 2022. That was brought to our user group by Ciarán Delaney who is in the audience here. There is the lift call system which we introduced in consultation with Gary Kearney. Our Changing Places was brought to me back in 2020. The first Changing Place toilet in Dublin 1 was in Connolly Station. The goal of Ms Considine and that of the senior team is to have one on each route over the next number of years. That will make a real impact.

Regarding Bus Éireann and the accessible coaches for our longer journeys, the vehicles are built in such a way that there is only space for one wheelchair. That is just the coaches that are currently available to us.

The question was about the space not being permanently available, and that a seat has be taken out so it needs to be booked in advance. I appreciate I have gone over time.

I want to say from the outset that there is a lot of work to be done on this particular area. We need to do a lot better as a country in accessibility for our transport as regards rail and bus services.

I have a report in front of me from the Irish Wheelchair Association - Getting Nowhere - that was published over two years ago. It identified that there was a need for improvement in terms of engagement with disabled persons' organisations on planning but also that there were not any national mandatory or legislative requirements in place. Specifically what engagement has there been on that report since the report was published and what key improvements have been made?

I know my time is limited but I have a number of questions. What are the main complaints about accessibility specifically in regard to Kent Station in Cork? What improvements have been made and what further improvements are planned in the future in that station?

I also want to ask about Bus Éireann's school transport fleet. What percentage of the fleet is accessible? Are there frequent reports of people having to take taxis for example? I know that is an issue for some people who have to pay to get to school because they cannot access the bus. How frequent is that?

I have serious issues with the Expressway services. Who is ultimately responsible for them in terms of accessibility? A lot of rural areas rely on them. Those services are not frequent enough. They are some of the issues.

I echo what colleagues have said. I get the train all the time. I am only learning to drive at the minute so I have been getting the train and the bus my whole life. The quiet carriage is fantastic but it should be expanded. Sometimes the quiet carriage can be quite loud in terms of the frequency of announcements. I understand that if somebody is visually impaired, for example, they might rely on announcements. Is there tension between different requirements on that carriage? Have improvements been noted or have complaints come in? It is a welcome development on the train and it needs to be expanded. I thank the witnesses. I know there are a lot of questions there.

We get feedback about the quieter carriages in terms of the noise onboard, but we also get an equal amount of really positive feedback. It is a case of trying to get the balance. We did consult initially about whether to take the announcements off but we left them purely for people with a visual impairment. That is a work in progress. I looked around Europe. We did name it "the quieter carriage". Originally, some years ago it was "the quiet coach". Again, it is about trying to get that behavioural piece with good signage. We will work closely with Ciarán, Gary and the user group to try and come up with good signage. The purple door outside is really prominent, so people should know what they are coming in to. We are always looking for improvement on it.

I engage regularly with John Fulham in the Irish Wheelchair Association. It is part of our user group and it is on our station audits. It is heavily involved in our enterprise fleet, which will have six wheelchair spaces in a standard class carriage so that wheelchair users can sit together and not be separated in different carriages. They give us feedback all the time. That is a key piece.

On Kent Station, we just finished an age-friendly walkability audit, which was conducted by Age Friendly Ireland. A number of observations have come out of that which we are working through. One particular issue was about the toilets, so we are looking at that. It is part of a wider programme for the court development.

In relation to signage, we have a sensory pod in Kent Station, which we put in last December, for people who require the time and space ahead of getting on a service. It has proved to be really popular.

I can take the question about the school fleet. From a Bus Éireann point of view the school transport fleet is an asset-light model, so we only have a small number of vehicles ourselves and the rest of it is delivered by contractors. It is the contractors that we use for the vehicles that are adapted to support some of the SEN students who are being transported. We have not had an issue to date where we do not have transport for SEN students who are approved for transport in the adapted service. That is how that is worked.

The Expressway service is a Bus Éireann commercial entity. It does not receive any subvention and therefore the route can only run in a period that makes it economically viable. There are not any plans to increase the route frequency across Expressway.

Does Ms O'Sullivan think the State needs to step in and support that route more?

It depends on which route we are talking about. Recently we had to pull out 2.5 routes because they were not economically viable and then the State decided through the NTA that one went to a commercial operator and the other two did not become PSO. It is kind of a question for the State. We are trying to ensure that the Expressway service remains viable and therefore our smaller portfolio is being supported currently.

I apologise for being late. I was looking at the earlier part of the meeting online. It is clear from the opening statements that a lot of work is going on. That is quite noticeable, but there is a lot to be done. We are starting from a late point with regard to accessibility and significant investment is needed. A lot of work is required in terms of training for staff and employees of both organisations. Have they done any autism-friendly awareness training? Training and awareness help people to deal with any issues that might arise. What regular engagement is there with the disabled persons organisations, DPOs? I expect the implementation of the plans has come from those engagements.

I was on the train on Sunday with my kids. We were going up to the match. I refer to the fact that for kids with sensory issues there are no catering facilities on most of the Irish Rail fleet. I would welcome a couple of comments on that. Are there any plans to bring back catering?

I might start on catering first. I mentioned earlier that, unfortunately, we are only funded to provide catering on two of our existing services. There are limitations on the funding. We went to the market to see if there was another way of doing it. We are hoping to start a pilot in the third quarter of this year. We are running a service that will not require subvention from the Exchequer. If that works well, we hope to be able to roll it out. We hear on a continuous basis from our customers that they want catering on the trains and we want to be able to provide it for them. We hope that this will work out and there is a means to roll it out across the network, in particular on InterCity and longer services. That is the first thing. I might hand over to my colleague to outline the training we do with disability groups.

We do training at the WayFinding Centre with Vision Ireland. It is a one-day disability awareness training programme. Autism is included as part of the training.

We have significant engagement with DPOs – one-to-one through regular meetings and forums. AsIAm is part of our disability user group. Ciarán Delaney from the Irish Non-Neurotypical DPO, who is right behind the Deputy, is part of it. We have a lot of one-to-one engagement and feedback. They are part of both our DART+ fleet workshops and our new Enterprise fleet. We get feedback from that.

Why would a subvention be needed for catering? Is that not a service that should be provided for customers?

It costs money to provide the service and we are not funded for that. We are trying to find a way that we can do it without requiring a subvention.

We also have disability awareness training. All new drivers have disability awareness training and we have refreshers as well. We are also lucky that we have Mr. Delaney on our disability user group, DUG, who can help us with aspects of how we get a message across correctly. We have had missteps. We did a roadshow that did not quite work. We got some feedback from members of the DUG on how we could do it differently. It is important that we recognise we are not always going to get it right.

We are not always going to get it right, but we can recognise that, move forward and make sure that the next time we do it, we do it in a different way, tweak it and make sure that we can hit more of the session targets. Much of it is around starting conversations with staff, colleagues and customers. Even if we are doing something like delight the customer day, we will have people from the autism community coming to speak to us. That gives us the opportunity to ask how we can help them or how they can help us improve. It is about opening up the opportunities.

This morning I was running late. The reason for that was not bus-related. The taxi driver I had is autistic, and he has two autistic sons. We had a good chat about the things we are doing as a company and what we can offer. I said I would send him some fidget spinners because his kids love them. We spoke about Ablefest. Gary is a big advocate of that and of how important it is. This was just a question of him not understanding what was available and the changes we have made to our services and our staff. He said he would travel on the bus for the first time in a long time because we have given him a bit of confidence that we are trying to make a difference. We are not perfect, but we always say it is progress over perfection. It is also about getting this from the community.

I thank everybody for attending and I thank the witnesses for the documents they provided prior to the meeting. They are very useful and will help us in our deliberations.