Apologies have been received from Deputy Gogarty.

Before we proceed, I have a few housekeeping matters to go through as follows. I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references that witnesses make to other persons in their evidence. The witnesses at the committee are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation actions for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege. It is my duty as Chair to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

I advise members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate if they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, a member who attempts to participate from outside the parliamentary precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any member partaking via Microsoft Teams to confirm prior to making their contribution that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks, and it is imperative they comply with any such direction.

I propose that we publish the opening statements and submissions provided by the witnesses on the committee website. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I invite our witness to speak for approximately ten minutes. We will allow members to ask questions or make comments for approximately seven minutes. If we have time, we will have second round of questions where members will be allowed to ask questions and make comments for approximately four minutes. Members may be called as they appear on the week 3 speaking rota, which has been circulated, and may substitute within their party or group. Non-members or substitutes may speak only after committee members have spoken. Are these arrangements satisfactory and agreed? Agreed.

The minutes of the meetings of previous meetings on Tuesday, 16 June, and Wednesday, 17 June, were circulated and approved in private session. Are those minutes agreed? Agreed.

Today's meeting concerns competitiveness and the cost of doing business in Ireland and views on budget 2027. The committee has decided to invite Ms Aileen Whelan here to talk about these issues. The committee is also interested in implications for the tourism industry in Ireland. I welcome Ms Whelan, chief executive officer of Play Activity and Leisure Ireland, PALI, and invite her to make her opening statement.

I thank the Chairman and members of the joint committee for the opportunity to address them today. PALI was founded in 2019 and represents approximately 120 play, activity and leisure businesses across Ireland. Our members include indoor play centres, pixel floors, jump zones, bowling alleys, pet farms, go-karting tracks, climbing walls, family entertainment centres and many other activity-based businesses. They are not large corporate operators. They are in the main regional SMEs, family businesses and local employers. They employ local people, support local suppliers, contribute to local economies and form an important part of Ireland’s domestic tourism and family recreation infrastructure. Across our network, PALI members represent a significant economic footprint. Collectively, our members have an estimated turnover of €51.6 million and a wage roll of over €20.6 million and provide employment across communities throughout the country. The reality today is that our members face a cost environment that has become extremely difficult to sustain. These businesses are highly labour intensive, heavily reliant on footfall and vulnerable to seasonality, and operate without the corporate reserves larger businesses may have to absorb shocks.

Before I outline key policy concerns, I want to bring the committee into the lived reality of a family business owner in our sector for just one day. At 7 a.m., while trying to get your own children ready for school, your phone buzzes. A supplier emails to say you have a price increase of 8%. By 8.45 a.m., the key turns in the door. Before a single customer arrives, the safety checks begin - miss one safety entry and there can be insurance implications. Lose focus and a child could get hurt. The responsibility is constant. Duty of care legislation has been a great help but bogus claims are a real threat to our businesses. By 9 a.m., you may have a school booking of 100 children arriving. You hope it will help cover the fixed overheads for the day. Our biggest competitors are often free State-funded amenities such as parks, playgrounds, libraries and community spaces. Those facilities are valuable and important but they do not face the same cost base as our members. Our rates bills, insurance bills, payroll obligations and utility bills are certain but income is completely exposed to footfall, weather, seasonality and household affordability. I must acknowledge the reductions made and extensions of reliefs but assistance in this matter is required again.

At 10 a.m., the children arrive. For four hours, there is noise, energy, laughter and pure magic. The children leave with memories of school tours, birthday parties, family days out and moments of joy. This is why our members do what they do, but by 2.30 p.m., the owner may have skipped lunch to cover staff breaks, answer emails, chase invoices, deal with bookings, manage a complaint, fix a maintenance issue and prepare the roster for the weekend. For many family entertainment centres, the business does not truly break even until the summer or peak holiday periods. The quieter months are carried on hope, overdrafts, personal sacrifice and the belief that the busy season will make up the difference. Doors may close at 6 p.m. but the work does not stop. At 6.30 p.m., you collect your own children and find another bill in the schoolbag. You smile and carry on because that is what small business owners do. By 11 p.m. on Friday, you are back at the laptop - wages, PAYE, PRSI, VAT, rates, insurance, electricity, suppliers, loan repayments, compliance filings and pension obligations all have to be met. There is no one else coming to carry that burden. That is the hidden stress our members carry seven days a week so that Irish communities and visitors to Ireland have safe, welcoming, weather-independent places to go when the sun does not shine. That is the human reality behind the phrase “cost of doing business”.

The core issue for PALI members is that the pressure does not come from one single cost; it is every single cost at the same time. Labour costs are one of the largest expenses for our members. Our sector is highly labour intensive. Safety issues, supervision, cleaning, catering, customer service, maintenance and administration all require staff. Our members fully support fair pay and proper pension provision. They value their teams and want to provide decent employment. However, increases in wages, employer PRSI and pension auto-enrolment are all landing together on small businesses already on very tight margins. Pension auto-enrolment is an additional existing payroll cost and it must be recognised as such when the Government considers the wider cost burden on SMEs.

Energy costs are another major concern. PALI members operate large premises with high ceilings, open spaces, heating, lighting, kitchens, refrigeration, ventilation and significant electricity demand. They are expensive buildings to heat, power, clean, insure and maintain. Food costs are also rising. Many members operate cafés and food offerings as part of the overall family experience. Families expect food to be available when they attend our activity venues, but the cost of food, packaging, waste, staffing and utilities has increased significantly. These increases cannot simply be passed on to our customers.

PALI was formed because of the insurance crisis facing play and leisure activities many years ago. At that time, many operators were facing enormous premium increases and some were struggling to secure cover at all. Premiums rose by multiples of five. For businesses operating with children, families and physical activity, insurance is not optional. Without insurance, there is no business. Compliance and maintenance costs are also growing. Our members take safety and standards seriously. Equipment must be inspected, repaired and replaced. Staff must be trained. Cleaning standards must be maintained. Fire safety, food safety, employment law, insurance requirements, health and safety policies and general regulatory compliance all require time, expertise and money. PALI supports high standards. Our members want safe, professional and well-run businesses but the cost and administrative burden on small businesses have become increasingly difficult to manage.

This brings me to one of PALI’s central concerns, formal recognition. Our members provide much more than entertainment. They support children’s physical activities, mental health, social development, inclusion and well-being. Many provide space for school tours, youth programmes, Special Olympics athletes, active retirement groups, minority groups, families with additional needs and local community initiatives, yet we are routinely excluded from targeted supports because we do not fit neatly into one policy box. We are often too commercial for community grants, yet too community-focused to be treated simply as commercial entities. We can be told we are too much like tourism for one scheme but not tourism enough for another. Where do we sit? Clearly, we do not sit under sport, tourism, hospitality, retail, entertainment or community, so the question for our members is what administrative umbrella we actually fall under. The lack of recognition has real consequences. When supports are distributed, businesses like ours can be left stranded because of rigid classification silos. This has caused huge stress for members, particularly where supports such as increased cost-of-business grants or other schemes are applied.

While our sector may fall through the cracks, we are all part of Ireland’s tourism infrastructure. Ireland markets itself internationally as a welcoming destination for families. Significant State funding is invested in attracting visitors but when families arrive, particularly in a country with an unpredictable climate, they need indoor attractions, family recreation and safe spaces for children. PALI members are part of that infrastructure. On rainy days, our members are often the places where families go. We are part of the tourism experience but are not always recognised or supported as such. PALI calls for formal recognition of play, activity and leisure providers within tourism and enterprise policy. This is not about labels; it is about access, inclusion, planning and survival.

The Irish Tourism Industry Confederation has warned that domestic cost pressures are damaging Ireland's tourism offering, eroding value for money and squeezing the markets of local tourism providers.

We have four questions to put to the TDs and the Senators on this committee. In their towns there are play centres, bowling alleys, pet farms, climbing walls and go-karting tracks. With the cost crisis, who will replace them if they close permanently? What is the Government’s plan for the future if they are gone? PALI is asking the committee to advocate for immediate framework interventions ahead of 2027 to help SMEs. These are: formal recognition of play activities and leisure providers within tourism and enterprise policy so that members can access relative supports and be included in future planning for all of the SMEs and leisure centres, particularly family leisure and play and activity centres; immediate measures to address rising energy and food costs where the costs are threatening the viability of small businesses; and the recognition of pension auto-enrolment as an additional existing payroll cost for SMEs, with consideration of offsetting supports for small employers already under severe pressure.

If independent family attractions are forced to close their doors, many will not reopen. The impact will be felt, not just by business owners, but by the staff, families, children, schools, local suppliers, tourism, and communities. We urge this committee to end the administrative isolation of our sector, recognise our structural value, and give PALI a definite voice in shaping the future of family recreation, domestic tourism and community activity in Ireland.

I thank members for their time. I would welcome any questions.

I thank Ms Whelan. That was very insightful and appreciated. I call Deputy Conway-Walsh.

I thank Ms Whelan for being here. She made very significant points in her presentation. I wondered at first how all of this would fit in, but going through her statement, it is very clear what is happening in this regard. I thank her for representing PALI's members.

Ms Whelan rightly talked about formal recognition of play activity and leisure providers within tourism and enterprise policy. What would that look like for PALI?

As regards grants, particularly those that have come out since Covid, we do not fall under any umbrella. We go to apply for grants but just cannot get them. We come under tourism. We work with the hospitality sector day in, day out. We do activity contracts with it to help its businesses as well as ours, but when we go to apply for grants or support, there is nothing. After Covid, many of the hotels opened up. We were the last sector to open up because we did not have recognition anywhere to show where we could open up. It was a huge problem. Due to that, many of our members have closed since Covid. Other members face a similar situation going forward if what has been mentioned in this report today is not tackled for our sector.

It is important to say that Sinn Féin, the party I represent, supports formal recognition.

I thank the Deputy.

What Ms Whelan has demonstrated is that there are 250 supports for SMEs that we are continuously told about, yet when people like PALI members try to access many of these, they find that they cannot. I want to see all of those supports evaluated to see exactly why PALI and others are excluded from them. There is an umbrella of 250 supports comprising millions of euro for businesses like PALI's but they do not translate into making life easier or, rather, feasible, given how Ms Whelan rightly pointed out that SME owners were not able to have a break themselves because of the stress of not being able to meet the bills and so on. Has PALI or its members received anything at all in terms of energy grants?

No. I work seven days a week. I am a serious anchor for our business and sector. This is the reason I am sitting here with the committee today. It is so frustrating. When we went to get the energy grants from the county council, it told us that we were not under an umbrella to receive them. We have a WhatsApp group through which we stay in touch every day to keep up with what is going on in the country, because we need to know. The same problem is happening in county after county. The answer to the Deputy’s question is "No". We did not get them.

The business receives nothing whatsoever for energy. As Ms Whelan pointed out, the architecture of play and leisure premises entails high ceilings and things that can be difficult to heat. Obviously, they also have to meet the standards, and rightly so. These businesses are completely locked out of any energy grants.

Regarding the training of staff or members, we have a National Training Fund of approximately €2 billion and all businesses pay into it, so it is to be distributed. Has PALI accessed any of that fund for micro-credential training or any other training?

The Deputy might think I am making all of this up, but we pretty much get access to nothing. That is the reality. It is why I am here today to be our members’ voice. If there was a grant going, I would be the first to apply for it. I work seven days a week. I own my business; I am 35 years in business. I have never accepted any handouts whatsoever, but it is getting too unsustainable to stay in business without help. That is why my speech is so passionate: I feel the pain. I am one of those people – I am on the laptop on a Friday night at 11 p.m., working out cheque balances and who I am going to pay next. It is becoming overwhelming. The answer to the Deputy’s question is "No".

Obviously, there have been reforms of the insurance industry. Has PALI’s premiums come down?

I have worked a lot in the background. Ms Linda Murray was very involved with the insurance back in 2019. We set up PALI for that reason. Ms Tracy Sheridan is on the Alliance for Insurance Reform, and she has done Trojan work. We have worked exceptionally hard. We have literally been banging on doors as much as we can, so we are very thankful for the changes that have been made up to now. Unfortunately, insurance is not our biggest issue at the moment. That is energy costs, as well as VAT, PAYE, PRSI, and the pensions auto-enrolment. At one point, insurance was our biggest issue, but all the costs are getting bigger, so it is everything now.

I will add one point. My ESB bill, on average per month, is €10,000 in my business. Think about that. That is before I make one cent and somebody walks through the door. If the sun is shining, I do not have people walking through, but I still have to turn on the electricity. The cost factor is always there. That is the reality. All the businesses in our sector have the same issue.

That is €10,000 a month before the organisation earns one single cent, and that is just electricity. If ever there was a case for reform of electricity pricing structures, decoupling the price of electricity from gas and having permanent solutions and reductions, there it is. We have renewable energy, including a saturation of wind energy and all of that, yet Ms Whelan pays €10,000 a month for electricity. That is absolutely disgraceful.

One of the things we advocated in our alternative budget was a PRSI rebate for small employers. Does Ms Whelan think a PRSI rebate would be helpful to PALI's members?

I do feel that. I love my staff and treat them very well, as all our members do. We look after them and want to make sure that they get the best of the best, but we need support to do that. We have staff who come in to us at the start of fifth year and stay with us right through until the end of their college years. Their wages are going up and up because we need them and want them there and because we have to pay them well. We do pay them well, and we have no problems with that, but in light of the minimum wage and pensions auto-enrolment – we are not saying not to have them, as we respect our staff - we need help. Genuinely, we need a break.

All our staff and business owners need some sort of hope.

I commend Ms Whelan on upholding workers' rights, because that is very important. I hear very clearly what she says about the space needing to be made up by support from the Government to ensure that their businesses continue.

I thank Ms Whelan very much for being here today. I was one of the founding members of PALI back in 2019, and it is wonderful to see Ms Whelan sitting here. She gave her opening statement so passionately by demonstrating what it is like to be an owner in the sector that we are in and how difficult it can be. When we started our business 19 years ago, we started off with a dream and something exciting. It was something that was going to make kids and their family leave with a smile on their face. Within months, you are stuck on the admin side of it, on the hedgerow side of it. The dream starts to go - in a way, it was nearly a case of what have I done? I cannot emphasise enough what it is like to own a small business and, as Ms Whelan says, not to be able to access supports and to get bogged down with insurance for years and just trying to survive. We are the people who take on many students. A lot of people who are going through college work in the industry. Am I right in saying that?

That is correct.

We start off a lot of people's careers. One of the main points Ms Whelan has raised today, which I would not mind her expanding on it a bit more, is about not fitting in anywhere. I thank Deputy Conway-Walsh for asking those questions. I will give an example. When the increased cost of business, ICOB, grant came out, it was just fantastic. It was for retail and hospitality but the PALI sector, including soft play centres, bowling alleys and all such places, was not included. In my business we serve food to 600 people a week. I serve more food than probably any restaurant in Navan - 600 people a week; I am sure Ms Whelan does the same - yet we could not be counted as hospitality because our primary business was a soft play centre or bowling alley, because that is what we opened. However, every person who comes in to do an activity also buys dinner. They buy lasagne, chicken curry, chicken nuggets and chips or whatever it is, but we are just not considered to be in the hospitality sector. If you go on holidays and you go out on a boat on a lake over in Galway or in the middle of the country, the boat on the lake is in the tourism sector, it is under Bord Fáilte and gets supports from it, but if it starts to lash rain and you run inside to a bowling alley, the cinema, a trampoline park or a karting track, you are not in the tourist sector, even though all you have done is move from being outside to inside because of the weather, but we cannot access the supports. Am I right in saying that?

That is correct.

What would it mean to be involved in the tourism sector, if we were able to get under the remit of Fáilte Ireland?

The reality is we are part of the tourism umbrella and we need to be recognised as that because we are playing our part. I meet people from Norway, Sweden, Belgium, Germany - all over the world. I go out of my way to find out where they have come from, where they are going and how they ended up in Wexford. Then I go out of my way to sell Wexford. I send them to the Hook Lighthouse or wherever they might want to go. The reality is we are a part of the tourism sector.

We are part of the tourism trail. Exactly.

We are a part of it.

In County Meath, they come in and ask where they should go next and I say the Hill of Tara or Newgrange. They are coming in to do something with the kids but they want to go and see our beautiful scenery as well. We are all part of that but, unfortunately, we are not recognised. I am not involved with PALI, as such, at the moment because I am in here, but I urge Ms Whelan to liaise with the Department. I will do it on her behalf as well. She must liaise with the Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment and try to get PALI a spot in there. If another Covid or something like that happens, we need to be able to get the grants.

We had the Licensed Vintners Association, the Vintners' Federation of Ireland, the Irish Road Haulage Association and the Restaurants Association of Ireland in last week. They said many of their members are now closing on Mondays and Tuesdays. It is very hard to find a restaurant open in Ireland on a Monday or Tuesday because they close on those days. In our centre we do not open until Wednesday because we are cutting costs. It is terrible. As costs go up, we close on certain days. Are many members doing that?

Out of 120 businesses in Ireland, I would say roughly 80 to 85 are closed on Mondays and Tuesdays at present because they cannot afford the labour and heating costs. That is the reality. It is the everyday of a business person. They do not want to close on Mondays and Tuesdays but they have no option.

On those days we get a lot of the special needs groups and disability groups in.

That is correct.

We get a lot of school tours in. We do not want to be closed on those days but because they are not as busy as the other days. we kind of look on it as a way of cutting costs.

I will just add to that. We have become a very niche area within our sector catering for people with special needs – people who do not have a voice. It is really important to note that here. I have been in business in Leisure Max for 20-odd years. I have watched some of the clients who have come in from the day we opened grow socially and develop. They need the sensation and need to get out. They need to be a part of the community. It makes my day to be a part of that because I want to make a difference to somebody's life. We have a lot of clients with special needs coming through the building, both young and old. We are a huge part of their life and their future in helping them to develop and get to the next step and chapter in their lives.

I am just going to come back to Ms Whelan on energy costs. Between us running our petrol karts, electricity and gas, we are probably hitting the €6,000 a month mark. Ms Whelan said the costs for her business are about €10,000. It is definitely an issue. What could the Government do to help the leisure industry when it comes to energy?

The reality is that when you walk through the door, you are on holiday. I am sure everybody here has a kid or a niece, nephew, granddaughter or grandson. They are going to come into the likes of what we have, a leisure centre. If you come in and see the lights turned off, it is a turn-off straight away. You are going to ask if the place is open. We have to turn on our lights all the time, whether it is just one person in the building or 2,000 people. On a sunny day, in a building that could hold up to 1,000 people at a time, we could have maybe three people. We do need help and support for that. If we turn off the lights, we are not going to do business. We give €20 million a year to the wage costs of Ireland. Our intake is €50 million in revenue. We have to be taken seriously. We need to have a voice at the table to help us to keep going the way we are going and keep the doors open. It is very important. We do need the help.

Ms Whelan mentioned insurance. I talk about that quite a lot. She said it is not as big an issue as it was. Is that because PALI is really lucky to have a group scheme? If PALI did not have a group scheme and Leisure Max was trying to get insurance tomorrow, would Ms Whelan be able to get it?

I do not want to make little of that. It is still a huge problem and we fight tooth and nail every year. I am at the table taking part in the discussions.

Is Ms Whelan able to get insurance?

It is still very hard. We still have people ringing us now looking for insurance who cannot get it. I mentioned that in the report. That is the reality. The point I am trying to make there, and I am not making little of the insurance issue, is that it is everything. It was just insurance and now it is everything.

Everything is going up.

We do not know where to look sometimes.

Absolutely. That is brilliant. There are 120 members in Ms Whelan's group. They include karting tracks, bowling alleys, soft play centres and animal farms. If the Government could implement three measures to help the leisure activity centre business in Ireland to sustain and stay there for the next ten years, what would they be?

I did a survey in the past week because I knew I was coming up here. I asked members to give us the top three measures that would help their business. I asked which three they were most concerned about in their business. PRSI and business rates were very high. That was number one. The second thing was food cost increases. The third was VAT costs on energy. That is the reality. It is the same thing over and over. It comes up every time we have a discussion.

I also asked what the top three requests for future grant funding would be. An energy grant would be absolutely magnificent. VAT has to come down because we are just not able to sustain it. They also asked for a reduction in the sick pay entitlement for staff out on sick leave. The reality is that the pension enrolment has been added. We totally support it, but that is another payment and cost that we have on top of everything else that I have mentioned.

In my final 40 seconds, on rates for buildings, a lot of indoor activity centres are in massive warehouses. That is the best way to describe them. That equals massive rates. Although they would not have the turnover of a very big hardware store, Woodies or Dunnes, the activity centres still pay high rates.

Would zoning land for leisure and having a separate rate valuation be a good idea?

It would, 100%. I was going to bring it up. We have to fight in all of our businesses, but our rates bill works out at just under €3,000 per month. How can you compare our rates bill to Dunnes Stores, Penneys or any of those big corporate companies? We are paying the same rates as they are paying. The Senator knows what their turnover is. Ours is not on par with what they are doing. I totally agree with that.

I acknowledge that Senator Nelson Murray has been a huge advocate for Ms Whelan and her organisation for some months. Today's discussion is the culmination of that. We will definitely take the points on board.

Thank you.

I thank Ms Whelan for her presentation. I read her opening statement before I came in. I have been in business for a long time, since I was 21. As Fianna Fáil spokesperson on small and medium-sized enterprises and retail, I have consistently called for supports for SMEs. I feel her pain when she talks about running a small business. You get up early in the morning and you are thinking about that business until you go to bed at night. It is cyclical. It is 24-7, 365 days a year. Even when you are closed you are thinking about it. Yet you have all the issues to do with staff, machines breaking down, customers and making sure you can pay the bills to keep the doors open. That is not just with Ms Whelan's type of business. That is all small businesses across the whole of Ireland. She is probably familiar with Jumpin Jacks in Tullamore in my constituency. It is exactly the same type of business she is representing. Like many parents I spent plenty of rainy days there, especially on Saturdays, with my son so I know the value that these businesses bring to families and communities. She spoke about kids with special needs being able to go with their schools on a Monday or Tuesday. Again, that is valuable and a huge part of education for them.

With the rise in temperatures we are seeing across southern Europe becoming more common every year, I believe Ireland has an opportunity to market something we never imagined we would be selling - our climate. Who would have thought we would ever say that? If we are going to seize that opportunity, we need thriving family attractions like Ms Whelan's as part of our tourism offer. I understand they are falling between two stools at the moment. They are neither Fáilte Ireland's problem nor a small or medium-sized enterprise, so they are not getting looked after. I feel they straddle both but at the same time somebody has to grasp the nettle and put them into one of those two categories so they can avail of the grants and supports available. They add to communities and bring people to the area. They are also part of the cross-marketing of tourism across the country. As she said earlier, she is advertising tourist attractions in her area. Senator Nelson Murray mentioned that she is advertising, and I have no doubt the people in Jumpin Jacks in Tullamore are advertising the same. We have another fantastic place called Playtown in Axis Business Park in Tullamore, which has won many awards for the service it provides. It is a fantastic facility and amenity. It is promoting Tullamore, Offaly and the wider country and people come in. It is vitally important that these companies survive.

After listening to Ms Whelan's opening statement, there is a question I would like to ask. If the Government delivered the targeted supports she has outlined, what difference does she think that would make to her members over the coming five years? If the cost pressures were eased, where would businesses invest first? Would it be in staff, facilities or expansion of new attractions? Does she believe this sector could become a real growth sector for tourism and local communities? If Government got the policy framework right, does she think that would happen?

The reality is that a lot of our businesses are going to close if they do not get the supports. We need to stay focused on the full-----

May I ask a question? She is saying a lot of them will close. How are they opening and surviving today?

They are pulling on a string at the moment. The energy bills and everything are going up. The biggest thing we are doing as a sector is collaborating with every tourism anchor in any of our areas like hoteliers or other activity centres to make sure the tourism comes to our county and that we sell it well. The businesses are at crucial points where the energy bill is becoming huge. There is also VAT, PAYE and PRSI. I could keep going on. We started our business with a dream to provide a service to the community, and we are still doing that seven days per week. We just need help to make sure we can keep bringing that service to the community. The Deputy mentioned he brings his kids to areas like ours.

I am really sorry. We do not have much time, and I want to get to the nub of the issue. If the Government delivered the targeted supports Ms Whelan has outlined, what difference would that make to the members over the coming five years?

It would be colossal.

In what way?

They would be able to invest in their businesses.

That was the other question I had. When the pressures were eased, where would you see the investment going?

You have to keep pushing forward and reinventing yourself.

Would it be in staff, expansions or equipment?

It would be staff in particular. That would be the first thing.

Does she believe it could become a growth sector for tourism in local communities if the Government got the policy framework right?

It is already there. We just need the recognition.

I thank Ms Whelan for her answers. I compliment her because normally what we have here is a team of people sitting in front. She came in on her own, she gave a great presentation and the organisation she represents should be proud of her. I say "well done".

I thank the Deputy.

I welcome Ms Whelan, my fellow county person. I apologise as I was not here for her opening statement, but I did read it. I was tied up in the Chamber. My background is in hospitality, and I fully understand what she is saying. I had a great saying when I was in hospitality, which was that kids book holidays. If a family goes away and the kids are happy, then the parents are automatically happy. When you go into a hotel, you will hopefully have your leisure centre and your beach, but there is also lots of free time. What do you do? Industries like Ms Whelan's are, for me, one of the most understated industries in this country. She brought that across clearly in her opening statement. It does not matter if you are selling a pint of milk or a pint of Guinness or an ice cream in one of her premises - if you are not making a margin, you are under pressure. At the moment we can see the margin and look at all the key issues like insurance, wages and rates.

I was recently contacted about rates by a business in Tinahely. I visited there when my children were younger. They went and played with the sheep in the pen and did all that type of thing. The owner, Philip Hatton, had to close down that section of his business in the past few weeks. I actually played rugby with him. He closed it down because he was being charged warehouse rates. If you have a couple of sheep in a shed and are being charged those rates, it makes no sense. They need space, and the kids need space to play with them. That really has to be looked at. My team in the office spoke to him this morning. Even going through his journey fighting those rates has not taken weeks or months. It has taken more than that, which is wrong as well. He had no choice but to close it down. Thankfully, he has a successful farm shop that is still operating. However, it is not only about his business, but also the spin-off. It is the suppliers that are supplying him and the people who are working for him. That is critical. The loss of that to a small village in the middle of County Wicklow is horrendous.

I am keen to hear more about the key issues affecting businesses such as wages and insurance. The Senator put across the idea that you have to join with a bigger organisation to get insurance. That speaks volumes in a negative way. That should be taken on as well.

Like every other business, energy costs have gone through the roof. What grants are available for that? As Ms Whelan rightly said, a huge part of her sector is the food end. There has been nothing except increased costs for food and wages. To put out food is a very labour-intensive business, as I well know. I ask Ms Whelan to go through the main costs of her business.

I will start with insurance. A member-to-be rang me last week because they still cannot get insurance. They have just found PALI. If they do not get insurance, they are going to be closed next week. They got an email from the landlord of the place they are hiring last week, and they were told that if they do not get insurance sorted in the next ten days, they are out. That is the reality. That is still going on in 2026. I hope and pray that I can get-----

I do not mean to interrupt. Is it that the insurance is too high or that they simply cannot get it?

The insurance is too high, and sometimes, they just cannot get it. At the moment, we are waiting for a reply, and we hope we can get it across the line. That is the reality. That is how PALI started, as Senator Nelson Murray will confirm. None of us could get it. My insurance policy used to be €9,000, and it went up to €52,000. That is the reality. I was thankful to find PALI and get involved with it. I will not say that we have control of the insurance, but it is a lot better than it was ten years ago. Now, however, there are all of the other issues. The Deputy asked what the biggest cost factor is.

I have to pull Ms Whelan up on that. She is saying that there was a 600% increase in insurance.

That is correct.

That should be clearly noted. I go back to my earlier question. How can businesses function based on a 600% increase?

We all opened our businesses. We all had a dream. We wanted to be self-employed. We wanted to have safe places for kids to come and for people to have time out from their worries. Everybody is coming from somewhere, even Deputy Brennan. They work hard, and they need somewhere to go and relax - to have that cup of tea, let their kids have a bit of fun and just relax. That is why we open and run our businesses.

The problem is that so many cost factors are getting in our way. It is everything. I do not know how to even answer that question. It is VAT, PAYE and PRSI, and rates are also a huge thing. How can we be compared to the likes of Dunnes Stores? I am not giving it a hard time; I am just making the point. It operates on a much larger scale than we do, and we are operating on a much smaller scale. Our turnover is not even one quarter of what it is taking. How can they be compared? How is that right? We need zoning for the rates. The VAT, PAYE, PRSI and universal social charge disappear straightaway, and they are paid out as another part of another expense. There is now also the auto-enrolment pension, which is another cost.

I sometimes feel there is a disconnect between the people on the ground seven days a week and the people making the decisions. That is not me being disrespectful to anybody. I am just calling it as it is. I ask them to come and work for one day in the shoes of those in my business and my life, and they will see how hard it is. It is so hard. Our business opens seven days a week, and I have to be there seven days a week. Do the members know why? It is because I cannot afford to have staff there seven days a week. I have to get in there and do all of the background work to make sure everything is safe, make sure nobody falls because of an insurance problem and make sure the staff are being trained up the way they are meant to be trained up. It is non-stop. It just goes on and on. That is the answer to the question. It is everything.

Reading between the lines, does Ms Whelan foresee closures in the sector unless there are supports?

Yes, I do see that.

Can she confirm the number of people employed in the sector?

There are 2,180 people.

That is right across the board. Ms Whelan thinks we may see closures in the next few months because of the lack of support.

It is going to happen because businesses are already closing two days a week. It is coming. People had better be prepared. The reality is that they will be going to the main social services to get their money. They do not want to do that.

We have a lot of students who have been with us since second or third year in secondary school. They are still with us up to the end of their college years. I spoke to one of my staff yesterday. She has just qualified as a teacher, and I could see the excitement and nervousness in her face. She has been with me for seven years. I do not want her to go, but she has to live her new chapter. From a social point of view, she started in my business. She wanted to be a primary teacher but she has ended up being a secondary teacher. She learned through all of the communities who have come through our building. She was involved with childcare and with people from primary schools and secondary schools, children with special needs, corporate groups, youth groups and GAA groups. She has learned from working through our facility where she wants to end up, and she is ending up in a job that she really wants. She knows that because of the work she has done through our business.

I thank Ms Whelan for being such a strong voice for her business.

I thank the committee for having me here today.

I thank Ms Whelan for being here today. I am sorry for not being here for her opening statement, but I have read it. I come from an SME background. I was brought up on a farm and, over the years, that farm became an antiques auction room. We had a restaurant and coffee shop with new furniture and a playground. It had everything. It really became a hub. I can hear Ms Whelan's pain when it comes to the increased costs over the years. Even when she speaks of her insurance going from €9,000 to €52,000, I have been through that.

We have been there since 1967. I redeveloped the place a couple of years back, and we changed the building. There was no change to the avenue or anything like that, but a levy of €85,000 had to be paid to the council, even though there were no new services. The costs of running a business have really increased. Just a few weeks ago, I decided that, no, I cannot subsidise this anymore - the rates, the insurance and the wage increases. I want everybody to get a good living wage, but the problem is that you cannot put up the margins. It came to the point that I just could not do it. We are pivoting again, and we are changing to see what the demand will be.

My heart goes out to Ms Whelan regarding running a business. I closed the business on a Saturday, and the next morning, I felt such relief, even though it had been there since 1967. I feel that SMEs are the backbone of Ireland. If Trump makes a decision tomorrow, and Pfizer, Intel and all of these companies decide to leave Ireland, who employs all the people? Not only that, who sponsors a field day, the local football team and all of that? I know who.

I have some questions. It looks like business closures are becoming normalised in Ireland. In PALI's sector, among its members, is Ms Whelan seeing well-run businesses becoming victims of closure, as in my own experience? The reason I ask is that everybody looking on would have said that I was making a fortune because my café was always full, and so on. In the sector, what is Ms Whelan's experience?

That is a really good question. When we had the issue with insurance ten years ago, we realised at that point that everybody needed to be compliant. We are dealing with many businesses. As a sector, we have a formula that we follow. Businesses have to have a certificate and make sure that all of their safety checks are up to date and that staff are trained. ISME comes in to help and connects with all our members to make sure staff are trained, and all the safety checks and safety statements are covered. It is all ticking a box. We have everything pretty much covered at this point. As a sector, we take pride in having a safe environment for people to come in and enjoy. We have to be that way purely because of the insurance issues that we have had in the past. The answer is that, yes, we are very compliant and very safe.

Interestingly, I had a playground as part of my offering. Our insurance went up and up, but we kept doing it because it is a necessary part of the business. There are women who come in for coffee mornings - the women who lunch, as we call them in Kildare. They come in, and they have the kids out playing, and we have a nice offering of good quality furniture. Eventually, we just could not afford it. We were really subsidising the insurance, but the insurance company came back and said that, unfortunately, it could not quote that year. That decided it, and we just closed down the playground.

There are no supports, first of all, and then the computer says "No". Ms Whelan mentioned in the statement that PRSI and pay-related costs are the number one concern for members, closely followed by energy costs. At what point does a well-intentioned increase in wages actually begin to undermine the very jobs we are trying to support in the first place? Does Ms Whelan understand the question?

That is why we work seven days a week. That is the only way I could answer that question. I have times I allocate when I have to sit down and ensure that my business is running properly from day to day, every day, from 9 o'clock in the morning until 6 o'clock in the evening. The reality is that the only way I can do that is by doing a lot of the work myself. Outside of that, I go into my office and I could spend three to four hours ensuring things get done, for example, if somebody needed to do staff training. We did it this week. We had a two-hour window. We took our staff in and did a staff training session on things we needed to upgrade. We do that on a regular basis. That is the reality for us as business owners. I am not just here talking about working seven days a week. We are actually putting in seven days a week grinding and making sure everything is perfect and that everything is run perfectly within our businesses to ensure safety.

Ms Whelan is talking to the converted. I absolutely hear her and I know even with my own parents, it was seven days a week. One thing I do every Saturday morning is go to my cafe to have porridge. That is my luxury. I have blueberries, cream and honey. Everything is beautifully prepared by the chef. It is the most expensive porridge I ever have because I am subsidising the whole thing. I could stay in the Shelbourne Hotel all week and have porridge on a Saturday and it would be cheaper.

I visited Explorium and spoke about it today in the Seanad. Explorium is in Sandyford. It is an interactive science campus for kids and there is a play area and all of that. One thing the representatives said is that the insurance can be crippling. The operators are also second to none. They are ticking every box when it comes to expertise but also making sure all the standards are covered. Is it fair to say then that many SMEs are not failing just because of one thing but that it is cumulative? It is death by 1,000 cuts, as such. Energy, PRSI, pensions and everything seem to be rising together. If the Minister for Finance was in the room, what would we be asking for? What would help Ms Whelan in the sector or help other SMEs?

This is what is going to drive our sector to closure. The bottom line is the expenses and taxes, including PAYE and PRSI. It is the same answer over and over. We run our businesses very well. We are not going to close down because we are not good entrepreneurs. We are going to close down because it just cannot be cost-effective anymore. I will add one more thing to that. A lot of our SMEs have loan repayments they have to honour. Whether we close down or stay open, they still have to be paid. Regardless, there is going to be a debt. There are going to be issues within the family unit. For example, I give up a lot of family time and recreation time with my own family to ensure I run my business well, the same way a lot of our SMEs do.

Could it be argued then that pride is getting a lot of us to keep our businesses going?

It is not even pride. It is just that we have passion and we love what we do. Can I say this to the Senator? If people do not have that play centre on Saturday on a rainy day or do not have that cinema or bowling alley, where do they go to get time out with their kids in a fun and safe place to really to stimulate the kids? Where is the environment they go to? There is nowhere to go. That is the answer. They need us as much as we need them. We are the future. We have been here all along, but we need to be recognised as a sector to help with mental health.

I will tell the Senator a quick story. There is a little boy who has been coming in to me since he was four years of age and now he is 14. He came in yesterday. To watch him develop has just been phenomenal. People actually gave him no hope. They said he would not get past seven. Not only does he have hope, he never stops talking. He is full of life. He is developing. He is actually getting well-educated. He is being looked after. His quality of life has been better because of us. That is the parents and educators who are telling us that. There is, therefore, a huge loss here if we do not get the support we require.

The community loses. I thank Ms Whelan.

I thank the Senator. We have gone a tiny bit over in time. The next speaker is a guest. I call Senator Gareth Scahill.

There are three Gareths in the Seanad, so that is where the problem is. I thank Ms Whelan very much. I am sorry I missed her opening statement but I was at another committee meeting. First and foremost, I am very familiar with the PALI organisation. I have heard my colleague Senator Nelson Murray tell her story on numerous occasions; it usually comes up once a week. I congratulate Ms Whelan on everything she has done. I am the father of two young ladies and when we have the time, whenever it comes, we love to get out and get active. Sometimes the weather in Ireland is not as supportive and that is when we have to go to indoor play areas, jump zones or soft play areas. We meet our friends and peers. We appreciate and very much need that two hours when they can run around and blow off a bit of steam when the time comes. However, I also come from a family business. We have a retail business in Castlerea, County Roscommon. I read the notes, and I love Ms Whelan's description of her day. I can really relate to that. People usually see the front side of the business. They see her behind the till taking money and smiling and saying, "Thank you very much, here is your ticket" and in they go. They say that is a great business but they do not realise the effort that goes into it in the background.

Ms Whelan's organisation has over 110 members. They put in the hard yards. I do understand the seven-days-a-week side of things. Even the days when people are not working, they are working and switched on and thinking of where this can be sourced, what they can get or who they can have working this day. It is constant and it is something people are always thinking of. Every small business is thinking about that nationally. We need to have a stronger focus on supporting our small indigenous businesses, not the multiples because the multiples have management structures and organisations. They quite often do not have to think about those singular issues. That is for Ms Whelan and the people on the ground. It is a service that they are providing. It is as vital a service as our childcare facilities that we have private operators running.

Costs are going up constantly at the moment. Every time a decision is made based on a recommendation or report, it has a knock-on effect and, quite often, it is the owners of these businesses who cannot afford the staff for the extra hours and take it on themselves. It is their health and their family time that suffers more than anything else. I very much acknowledge and recognise that. As a parent, I want to thank Ms Whelan for what she is doing. I missed some of the questions that were asked, but is there anything that she has not had the chance to acknowledge and say today that she would like to get off her chest in relation to her organisation?

I think I have gotten a lot of my chest today.

Senator McCarthy has that effect.

The reality is that we just want to get recognised and to be put in the bracket of tourism, please, because we are tourism. We are a part of Ireland, selling Ireland as a unit together. The Senator just said it himself. He comes with his kids into kids into play areas and bowling alleys. The reality is that for people on holidays, the kids dictate where they are going and the kids find us. We have the best coffee and the best cups of tea waiting on everyone. The reality is that we have passion for our business. We do not want to close our doors but the cost factor is just becoming way too much and it is everything. I said this earlier when we were talking about the insurance. Insurance has been a huge issue in our sector for the past seven, eight and nine years. Now, insurance is still a big issue, but everything else is becoming the bigger issue. I would not even know where to start. I put it into my statement. This is genuinely from the heart. I am a genuine business owner. I genuinely work seven days a week. I am who I am I am; I am the real deal. All our businesses are the very same. All I ask for is for members to listen to us, please look out for us and look after us. We want to sell Ireland and we want to give the best value and give communities the best enjoyment and memories for lifetimes to come. As members will be aware, the reality is that the world is changing so fast. We do not have the same freedoms to walk around. We have to protect our kids more and more. We have everything covered. We just need the supports to back it.

The lack of competition in insurance is a massive issue in all sectors. Quite often, business sectors can only go to one insurance provider to get it so the chances are that people are paying more than they potentially should be.

I come from County Roscommon, which is not currently the destination of choice for somebody going on holiday. However, there has been massive investment in amenities in the county, including in Baysports, and we have great innovation taking place in Glendeer Pet Farm. There is also Roscommon Leisure Zone and last week, I welcomed planning permission for an expansion of the opportunities available at Lough Key forest park to include play zones, adult play zones, abseiling and water sports. We need to ensure these amenities are viable, that they are not a noose around the neck of people running them and that they are not keeping going from pride or to serve their communities, but are able to make a living and pay their debts. That is a worry for every businessperson every day of the week when they get up.

As Ms Whelan is so invested in her business, this is considered a day off.

That is correct.

Enjoy your day off, Ms Whelan, and thank you very much for your contribution.

There is a lot of domestic tourism in Ireland. I meet a lot of people and ask a lot of questions. Many domestic tourists are now doing day trips. They could be living in Dublin, Waterford or Cork and they get into their car in the morning, drive to Wexford and look up things to do. We come up and they come to us or they could go to Curracloe or the Hook. There is a lot of that happening and I want to make the committee aware of it.

Regarding international tourism, Wexford is getting a lot stronger and getting much more recognition at a national level. I thank the committee for that.

We have gone through a lot today and Ms Whelan has done fantastically well, so fair play to her. A couple of months ago, during the fuel protests, we had probably the quietest two weeks in our business for years because people felt nervous and under pressure. They were wondering what would happen and what was coming around the corner. Unfortunately, when the purse strings get tighter or people get worried, activity centres and other places they bring kids to are among the first impacted.

Ms Whelan rightly spoke about the time after Covid. Such is the lack of understanding in government of our type of industry that we got to open after pubs opened. We were deemed more dangerous than pubs. I am not saying anything about pubs but there was a lack of understanding about getting activity centres open because those in government did not know a lot about them. I remember conversations about bowling balls. The industry said that every time a group finished on a bowling lane, the bowling balls would be sanitised. This was to get the centres open, but that was not good enough. Those in government could not get their heads around fingers going into bowling balls and whether it would it be done. We were all very nervous at that time. I am part of the tourism industry and I work with the fantastic Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment. A lot more understanding could be shown to the industry. That would help going forward.

Ms Whelan mentioned disability groups coming in and how we help many community organisations. In our business, and I am sure it is the case in Ms Whelan's as well, Tusla uses our centres as places where parents who are separated from their children for a short time can meet their children on visits for one day a week or whatever. They are somewhere safe to go. It gives the child a memory of meeting their mammy or daddy, who they have been separated from, for whatever reason, in a fun place. That sums up what our type of business does.

I am very lucky that my husband and I have bought an old caravan. We travel around Ireland in it with the kids any time we can. The first thing we look up in a destination is where we can go to do stuff, both outdoors and indoors. Domestic tourism is really important to the sector and needs to be recognised.

I am commenting more than asking Ms Whelan questions. I just want to say well done to her and to thank her for her submission and statement. I will stop and give my last two minutes to Ms Whelan, if she wants to say anything.

I thank all the members for having me here today. I thank Senator Nelson Murray because she has been massive for PALI. I feel I have the weight of 120 businesses on my shoulders. I hope members today get the feel of what it is like to live in the shoes of a self-employed SME owner in a small, rural county. I hope I got across the reality. I appreciate the time and the acknowledgement. I thank the committee for inviting me.

Ms Whelan is very welcome. I am from Youghal. Famously, we have Perks, which provides an enormous service to tourists in Youghal and people in the east Cork-west Waterford area. Ms Whelan rightly identified that facilities are so important in tourist towns in times of inclement weather. It has a significant impact on our offerings of recreational facilities in those areas for young people and families.

We have heard of the challenges facing businesses, including insurance costs. We have had a discussion about high energy costs. From multinationals to cafés and bakeries and to the industry Ms Whelan represents, these costs seem to be eating into the margins of businesses of all scales and sizes, almost to the point where it is not possible to ignore the issue any more. We have the most expensive electricity of the 27 member states of the European Union. Electricity here is almost double the price of electricity in countries at the lower end. That is having a big impact on business in Ireland.

I am glad we had the opportunity to engage with Ms Whelan. I thank her. I think it is the first time the committee has cross-examined one person. She has done the work of five or six people today, so well done. I appreciate her being here.

I propose that the committee adjourn until 2.25 p.m. on Tuesday, 7 July 2026, when we will meet in virtual private session, and that we meet again in public session at 12.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 8 July. Is that agreed? Agreed.