We have a private session again at 2 p.m. today so we have a couple of items on today's agenda. Before we proceed I have a few housekeeping matters to go through. I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. Witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means that witnesses have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Chair to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

I advise members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, a member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard I ask any member partaking via MS Teams, prior to making their contribution to the meeting, to please confirm that he or she is on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or the entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. I again state that it is imperative that they comply with such a direction.

The first item of business today is the order to publish the opening statement. I now propose that the committee would publish the opening statement provided by today's witnesses on the committee's website. Is that agreed? Agreed. I suggest that our speaking arrangements will allow our witnesses to speak for approximately ten minutes, that we will then have members ask questions or make comments for seven minutes, and then we will have a second round of questions if time permits, when members will be allowed to ask questions or make comments for approximately four minutes.

Members will be called in the order in which they appear on the week 1 speaking rota, which was circulated before the meeting. Committee members may substitute within their party or group. Oireachtas Members who are not members of the committee may speak only after committee members or substitutes have spoken. Are these arrangements agreed? Agreed.

The minutes of the meetings held on Tuesday, 23 June, and Wednesday, 24 June, were circulated and approved previously in private session. Are they agreed? Agreed.

Item No. 2 is a discussion on scaling and access to funding, and views on budget 2027. The committee has decided to invite our witnesses here today to talk about scaling, access to funding and their views on budget 2027. I welcome the witnesses from the Irish Stock Exchange, Euronext Dublin: Mr. Daryl Byrne, chief executive officer, and Mr. Niall Jones, head of listing, Ireland and the UK.

The Irish Stock Exchange was founded in 1793 and is 233 years old, if I am correct in saying that. It is astonishing. I did not realise it was that old. It has played a major role in enabling our domestic capital markets. We look forward to hearing the views of the Irish Stock Exchange, Euronext Dublin.

I am now delighted to invite Mr. Daryl Byrne, chief executive officer of Euronext Dublin, to make his opening statement. He is very welcome.

I thank the Cathaoirleach and other members of the committee for the opportunity to appear before them today to discuss access to finance to support the scaling of Irish enterprise. I am CEO of Euronext Dublin, and I am joined here today by Mr. Niall Jones, head of listing, Ireland and the UK.

Ireland's stock exchange has been part of our economic infrastructure for more than 230 years. Founded in 1793, the Irish Stock Exchange, known today as Euronext Dublin, has helped successive generations of Irish companies to raise capital, create employment and grow into internationally recognised businesses. Today, as part of the Euronext group, Euronext Dublin is the global leader for bond and fund listings while continuing to provide an important equity market for Irish enterprise. Euronext operates a range of markets to support the growth and fundraising of companies of all sizes and at all stages of development. Companies such as Bank of Ireland, AIB, Kerry Group, Kingspan, Glanbia and Ryanair all demonstrate what is possible when ambitious Irish businesses have access to public equity markets.

While Ireland has built one of the world's most successful international financial services sectors, we have not fully harnessed the potential of our domestic equity capital markets to finance indigenous companies. That is particularly important today as the EU advances the savings and investments union, which is fundamentally about mobilising Europe's savings to finance European growth and innovation. Ireland has an opportunity not just to participate in that agenda but also to lead it.

In recent years, Government and State agency policy on financing the scaling of Irish enterprises has focused to a large extent on attracting venture capital and angel investment. This approach has delivered real successes and should absolutely continue, but venture capital is only one step on the funding escalator. We have set out the funding escalator in our submission.

To support the financing of enterprises at all stages of their growth and scaling, it is critical that the Government seek to mobilise all steps of the funding escalator. Public markets should sit alongside venture capital, not compete with it, as a complementary source of long-term capital. Too often, the policy debate has concentrated on early-stage funding while overlooking the role that initial public offerings, IPOs, and public equity markets can play in helping companies to scale, remain headquartered in Ireland and continue growing independently.

As Euronext Dublin has previously argued, Ireland may have been missing a trick by not supporting more companies to access capital through public markets. This has left Ireland at a competitive disadvantage compared with other EU states, as demonstrated in the table in our submission, which shows listing activity over the past five years. The reality is that other governments, particularly across Europe, have actively pursued fiscal measures to promote and strengthen their equity capital markets to attract increased levels of IPOs. That is why we believe the Government should ensure that the new generation of State growth funds includes a dedicated funding stream to support companies preparing for an IPO and accessing public markets.

We believe the Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment's work on financing scaling enterprises, including the finalisation of an action plan by the Department's finance for scaling implementation group, presents an ideal opportunity to recognise IPOs as part of the funding continuum. Public markets deserve to be recognised as a mainstream financing option for ambitious Irish businesses. We ask for the committee's support in encouraging the Government to include an IPO funding stream as part of the State's growth funds.

We are also seeking the committee's support for our proposal to exempt Irish-incorporated companies that are dual-listed in Ireland and the United States from stamp duty as part of budget 2027. The present system of granting a stamp duty exemption to Irish companies listing on a US securities exchange but not granting an equivalent exemption for trading on their home market places Irish companies at a competitive disadvantage by encouraging trading activity to migrate to US markets. In practice, companies seeking a US listing are incentivised to abandon their Irish listing altogether. The consequence is not simply a loss of trading activity. Over time, it risks losing headquarters functions, employment, intellectual property and economic activity to overseas markets. However, we note a recent parliamentary reply from the Minister for Finance that suggests that the primary policy objective of the current stamp duty policy is to enable Irish companies to raise capital in US markets through the provision of a stamp duty exemption. We believe this policy requires a rethink, and the primary objective should be to enable Irish companies to raise capital in Irish and EU markets. Our proposal would help to retain companies in Ireland and strengthen domestic capital markets while aligning with the objectives of the European savings and investments union.

We strongly support the Government's proposal for incentivised investment accounts. We welcome the significant progress made over the past year. It is worth recognising that Euronext Dublin first proposed the introduction of the savings and investment account in advance of budget 2025 and subsequently led the campaign last year which secured a commitment by the Government to examine such accounts as part of the funds sector roadmap.

The Tánaiste's recent personal investment account proposals are a very welcome development and have the potential to mobilise household savings, deepen Irish capital markets and allow more citizens to participate directly in Ireland's economic success.

We welcome the Government's decision last year to increase the lifetime limit for capital gains tax entrepreneur relief by 50%. That was an important signal that Ireland values entrepreneurship. However, if our ambition is to create significantly more scaling companies, further enhancements to founder tax incentives should be considered. Successful founders create the next generation of entrepreneurs, investors and employers. Ensuring Ireland remains internationally competitive in rewarding entrepreneurial success will be essential if we are to build more Irish-headquartered global businesses.

In recent years, Euronext has introduced a series of initiatives to enhance the attractiveness and accessibility of its equity markets to Irish SMEs. Similar to what other EU governments have done to support their domestic equity markets, there is a need for the Irish Government to help to create a more favourable environment for companies to fund growth through public equity markets.

Ireland has an opportunity to build a genuinely complete financing ecosystem, from start-up to scale-up to public markets. By recognising the strategic role of equity capital markets alongside venture capital, supporting IPOs through State growth funds, removing unnecessary barriers to dual listings, introducing effective personal investment accounts and continuing to strengthen incentives for founders, Ireland can ensure that more of our most successful companies continue to grow, raise capital and create employment from Ireland. That would represent an important contribution not only to Irish enterprise policy but also to the ambitions of Europe's savings and investments union. I thank the committee.

I thank Mr. Byrne for his contribution. We will now have questions from members.

I thank our witnesses for joining us. The matter under discussion is an area of opportunity we need to explore further.

Mr. Byrne made reference to how public markets should sit alongside venture capital rather than compete. Are Irish companies ready for that or is there a preparatory piece that needs to be done to make them aware of it and be equipped to draw down finance? Where we have them sitting beside each other complementing rather than competing, how do we communicate the pros and cons of one over the other?

I can start and my colleague, Mr. Jones, can join in. There are a few topics within the Deputy's questions. When we look at that funding escalator, companies will go through various stages of growth and their financing needs will change as they evolve. In the early stages, venture capital sits nicely, but as we get to the later stages as companies develop, IPOs have a significant role to play in supporting the financing of companies as they go through their next phase of growth.

Consider what has been happening. Euronext has introduced a range of markets whereas, historically, companies needed to be much larger and typically would have gone for a dual listing in Dublin and London. With the range of markets that Euronext offers today, we now cater for companies at all stages from companies at a much earlier stage of development to companies that are large and well-established. Last December, we introduced our access market, which is a market specifically designed for companies that are much smaller in size and at an earlier stage of their development. We had one company, Senus PLC, test the market, and it worked successfully. We are confident that it opens the door for other companies to follow.

In terms of what the markets look like, we are engaging with a number of companies and our pipeline is looking strong. There are plenty of ambitious, successful companies that have significant growth paths ahead of them. Public equity markets can play a strong role in delivering that. We do a huge amount of work, ourselves and with the ecosystem, in terms of promoting public equity markets to companies. Mr. Jones can talk about our IPOready programme, but we get in front of as many companies as we can through trade associations and engaging directly with companies.

Will Mr. Byrne give us an outline of what he is talking from turnover to X and the key sectors?

Sure. It is a real mix. I am going to let Mr. Jones take this part of the question because he deals with a lot of these companies.

We have been running a strategic financing programme called IPOready since 2015. We have had 66 companies through the Irish leg of the course. It is a six-month programme. Through it, we look at the various funding options - venture capital, private equity, private debt and public markets - for companies to assess and identify which is the most appropriate for them. When we ran the programme last year, we had 70 different contributors from the ecosystem involved, including IPO and venture capital, VC, investors. Mentors also worked with the companies through the course.

From a sectoral perspective, approximately two thirds of the companies are tech or tech related, whether that is in life sciences, traditional tech in telecommunications and technology, T and T, or even green technologies. A third are probably more traditional.

What sort of turnover are we talking about?

We are quite open to companies because some companies who might look to list are pre revenue, especially on the life science side. These companies may have been successful and raised €50 million or €60 million already in series A and B funding rounds, so we can assess them on that basis and whether there is a value in the intellectual property, IP, that they have developed. They might be running through phase 2 or phase 3 trials before they list. We see companies of all sizes. We do not have an obligation related to any set turnover amount.

In relation to the new listings and companies that Mr. Byrne outlined from 2021 to 2025, is it the case that the due process in our exchange is higher? Are their higher failure rates in other jurisdictions where they may higher numbers of new listings?

It is an interesting question. The way that Euronext operates is that we have eight exchanges across the group, of which Dublin is one. We have a similar approach in terms of the rule books we have for the markets. Over the past couple of years, we have gone through a process of streamlining our rules and making them more accessible and workable for companies of all sizes. With the process, we are confident that it will work for companies at various stages.

What is missing at the moment is that, when we look at other Euronext markets, there are features that exist in those markets that do not exist in the Irish market. For example, other Euronext markets have cornerstone funds that will take a stake in a company when it comes to the market. We do not have that in Ireland, and it is one of the things that we are looking for because when a company comes to the market, if there are domestic investors or a fund that will take stake in that company, it acts as a magnet and draws in other investors. We have seen that work well in other Euronext markets.

Another thing is that we do not have sufficient incentives for founders of companies, who have worked incredibly hard and got a lot of money over the years to grow their businesses, to release even a small part of the equity when they bring their companies to the market.

The third thing is around personal investment accounts and retail investment in the market, which we do not have today. The proposals around the personal investment accounts are a welcome development because they will help address that particular issue.

Is there an opportunity that is not in the other jurisdictions for us to tap into the likes of the US market?

Yes. We promote Ireland as a gateway in terms of listing and access to European capital markets. For US companies, Ireland is a natural gateway to European markets. A listing on Euronext Dublin or the Irish Stock Exchange will get a company its shares on our trading platform, which is accessible to investors and institutions across Europe, and it can use Ireland as a base for raising capital in Ireland and across Europe as well.

There is probably an opportunity for companies whose end markets are in the UK or the US. They see Ireland as a natural place to do their European listings. We are getting inquiries from companies outside of our home jurisdiction that are looking to list here for a European listing to access UK and US investors and the markets there.

I want to move on to incentivised investment accounts. I recognise the witnesses' advocacy work and support in that regard. Are there any parameters we should set in relation to any such initiatives in their introduction?

We are in a fortunate position because these types of regimes already exist across some of the Euronext markets. We have taken a look across to see what works well and what would be appropriate for the Irish market. In our pre-budget submission, we set out some of those features, but there are a number of points, including simplicity in terms of setting up the account, administration and any types of tax returns related to the account.

There is also a big piece in relation to financial literacy and education because this a product that needs to be open to all citizens. We have to ensure that we are able to educate citizens about this product and the role of investment, wealth creation and how these products will work so that people across all spectrums of society can engage with the product. Mr. Jones might want to comment because he has looked at the detail of these-----

I want to come in with one more question before my time is up. When Mr. Byrne refers to "all citizens", is there an argument to be made to exclude any particular cohort?

This particular product type should be open to all members of society. That is the way we see it in other Euronext locations as well. This is not-----

Are there any trends that Mr. Byrne sees in relation to certain cohorts coming to the table quicker than others?

When we look today, there are a lot of younger people investing in crypto and this type of product, but there needs to financial education there to introduce to them the concept of investing early and the benefits that it will deliver later. With regard to the working population and older people, it is a product type that needs to work for all members of society.

What I am trying to get to is whether there is a particular cohort or profile - high wealth, older, younger, or working - that Euronext expects to come forward first to embrace this as early adopters?

When we look at savings in Ireland today, there is €170 billion sitting on deposit. For people who regularly save, this should provide a nice alternative to putting money into a savings account. Whether that savings is €10 a week or €50 a month, money that was directed towards savings can instead go into an investment account.

Do the witnesses have any research or data relating to that?

We see an opportunity for lump sums and regular savers across the piste. We want it to be a mass-market product. We would like to see investment accounts sit alongside a savings account and a current account and for it to become a cultural change that people consider investment and planning in the long term.

I thank Mr. Byrne and Mr. Jones for their opening statement. When we look at Ireland and the companies here, we are very lucky to have all the foreign direct investment, FDI, and multinationals here. However, in a lot of cases we have people who work for them and then move out, start their own business and are left in a situation, when they get so far, that they are bought out by a multinational or an FDI they worked for previously.

We have had Enterprise Ireland and the IDA in here, sitting where the witnesses are, talking about the businesses coming in - in the case of Enterprise Ireland the homegrown businesses and exports - and trying to keep those businesses when they get to a certain size. Instead of selling to somebody else, it is to create that kind of atmosphere and something they can feel confident in, so they can stay and grow here in Ireland, be successful and become one of those multinationals. How do the witnesses think the Government, along with working with the witnesses, can attract companies getting into the initial public offering, IPO, frame of mind instead of selling out to somebody else, or getting venture capital or selling to another company, in order for them to grow?

It is something we look at a lot because we see great Irish companies sell out and suddenly operations that were based in Ireland start moving overseas. Our objective is to grow the markets and make sure the markets operate successfully for Irish companies that want to continue that growth journey but base it out of Ireland. They can expand globally, become global champions but use Ireland as their base.

When we look at what could be introduced that would help that, there are a few things. One is around this idea of the corner-stone fund. If a founder of a company wants to bring it to a public market, they know there is a fund there that specifically invests in new companies coming to the market - IPOs - and that they can successfully get their company onto the market. There is always a lot of focus on the IPO, which is an important event, but public markets provide long-term access to capital. We have plenty of examples of companies over the years that did their IPO but at later stages came back to the market and were able to tap the market very quickly to raise additional funds. If someone has a significant growth ambition for their company, it is not just about getting the initial capital. It is about being able to come back to the market time and again, assuming they continue on that growth story.

For a lot of founders of companies, when somebody comes tapping on the door offering them a big cheque, they look at all the blood, sweat and tears that have gone into developing their company over the years and want to take some money off the table. Providing more incentives for founders of companies who, instead of selling out and taking that big cheque, can bring their company to the market but also sell a small portion of their shares in a tax-efficient way is another thing that is important. A combination of those factors is very important for founders of companies. Mr. Jones works with companies across Europe so he will see first hand what happens.

There are two other points. If the companies do come to the market, they can then use the market as a mergers and acquisition currency for themselves to go out and acquire other companies. They can also have the ability then for succession planning rather than the solution being to sell the company if somebody wants to retire or, if they want there to be an event, it can be managed through public markets and they can have a more regular management structure stepping up.

There are also visibility and credibility that come with public markets because companies are seen to be following best corporate governance and so, all of a sudden, companies are attracting and retaining staff. There is then an option to reward and retain staff by using share options and other mechanisms. It is about understanding some of those structures and why public markets are attractive. It is not the end event; it is the start of a journey for companies to grow to the next level and expand.

What we are trying to debunk, and it would be helpful if Government were supportive of this, is the idea that smaller companies cannot access public markets. A lot of people think companies have to be at €200 million, €300 million or €400 million to list, but when we look on the continent and our peers across the group, we see that much smaller companies are listing. In fact, over the last 18 months we have had 77 companies list across Euronext and, within that, 75% of them have raised less than €10 million. Even smaller companies are coming, joining and starting their journey and then growing over time onto the bigger markets.

That all sounds fantastic. Mr. Byrne's opening statement mentioned how he would like to see Government put in funding streams. What way would that work or where do the funding streams come in from the Government? Are we talking about an education piece to get out to those companies starting up to make sure they are aware of what is available to them as opposed to being in a silo working away? We find a lot of the time the owners of a company are so concentrated on what is happening within the company itself that they forget to look outside. What exactly is Mr. Byrne talking about when talking about Government funding streams?

I am talking specifically about the corner-stone fund and having a fund there that will invest in the company. However, another piece around that is the education piece as well. A programme we operate, IPO ready, is a programme for executives of companies, typically CEOs and CFOs, where we educate them over a six-month period about a whole range of strategic financing options of which IPO is one. There is that education piece. There is a piece around putting IPO as a viable funding option on the radar of companies at a much earlier stage so when they are coming to consider whether it is a trade sale or private equity, IPO is there as an option as well.

There are a few asks of the Government in the opening statement like the funding streams, for instance, the corner-stone investment fund and other things. Mr. Byrne was very positive about the entrepreneurial relief that came in the last budget, which was very good. Mr. Jones spoke about succession and passing on businesses. Something that has come up here quite a bit is capital gains tax. Is that one of the witnesses' asks of the Government? I assume witnesses have met with the Minister for Enterprise, Tourism and Employment. How have those meetings gone?

We have met with the officials and I think everyone understands our case. It has been a campaign over the last two or three years we have been building on. We worked initially with the broader ecosystem under the Irish equity market forum. We set up a kind of coterie of advisers and created a full action plan. That is where we came up with the three pillars we have been progressing. There is a buy-in that there needs to be action on all three pillars; it is not necessarily one pillar. We recognise some of the initiatives require tax initiatives and fall within finance, but we are working very closely with Enterprise Ireland as well and they are a partner on our IPO-ready programme. Even with respect to the corner-stone fund, we call for the Enterprise Ireland scaling fund and some of the €100 million there to be focused on the IPOs as well.

Regarding the public, Mr. Byrne spoke about the €140 billion or so that is on deposit at the moment in Ireland and getting people to have a sea-change in mentality to start investments side by side and have their money invested in companies on the market. The problem we have is so many people were burnt in the previous crash. How do we educate people to do that and how do we do it in such a way they are given protections as well?

For companies that are on the exchange, there are investor mechanisms in place through various European securities legislation rule books, etc. However, investing ultimately carries a degree of risk, so there is an education aspect that involves explaining to people that risk comes with investment, but also the potential for higher returns. There are a range of potential investment products that run from higher risk to medium risk to lower risk, but there is also a risk to holding your money on deposit, especially in a high-inflation environment where it is essentially being eroded. There is a broad education piece that needs to happen to explain this to people and society.

All right.

I thank the witnesses for being here and for the presentation. I was listening from my office before coming down. Everybody agrees that we have a problem with creating an ecosystem, as the witnesses were saying, to enable companies to scale up here rather than being forced to move somewhere else, meaning that we lose both the employment and the business potential.

When Mr. Byrne talks about the IPO funding stream, does he have any concept of how much that might be or what it would like? Is he saying the Government should set up such a fund? Will he explain how it works?

Sure. The cornerstone fund idea could start off reasonably small with a fund in the region of €20 million to €30 million. As we are gearing towards smaller companies coming through, that fund would be sufficient if we had five or six companies with a valuation of €5 million to €10 million coming to the market and raising capital as they did so. Of course, we want to grow the markets across not just the smaller company cohort but also medium-sized and larger companies. Having a fund there, we have seen in other Euronext markets, works very well because once that fund takes a stake in the company it then acts as a magnet to draw in other investors. Years ago we had the likes of Bank of Ireland asset managers or AIB investment bankers that actively took a stake in Irish companies when they came to the market, but domestic institutional capital does not exist like that any more. That is why this fund would replace what worked well in the past and what we see working well across other Euronext markets today.

There is no fund at the moment. On the basis of the content of the witnesses' discussions with the Department of Finance, is a fund being considered?

It is something we have put forward in our pre-budget submissions and proposals. Enterprise Ireland would take stakes in companies and the ISIF would as well but for us, in terms of making public markets more attractive and accessible to a wide cohort of companies, a dedicated fund would deliver a lot of merit for firms.

If a fund of €30 million were to be set up tomorrow, how many companies would be shovel-ready, if you like, to scale up?

We have got an active pipeline of companies. Our pipelines is the strongest it has been in years. We have a number of companies going through the process at the moment. However, we know there are a lot of companies that previously would not have considered an IPO - because they might have gone with venture capital or other routes - that today would consider it. Having that fund would make a difference in reincentivising this.

Will the witnesses describe what those companies look like? How big are they and how many employees do they have? I mean the ones that would be ready.

The companies we are working with might be valued at between €10 million and €50 million. There would be a number of candidates. Some would be Irish companies. Others would be international companies looking to position themselves in Ireland and grow from here. There would probably be a relatively small number of employees because they are on the tech side primarily, so they are highly scalable. We have a mix of traditional companies coming through. When we look at other markets the biggest cohort of companies are industrial and real estate companies looking at coming to the market in the likes of Italy and other markets in our group.

Does Mr. Jones mean real estate companies in the business of buying up properties, including residential properties?

And commercial and student accommodation and everything else. Absolutely.

We would have a fund that would be used to buy up properties.

No, it would not be buying up. It would be creating new stock, traditionally.

Obviously, the idea would be that we maximise the employment potential of these companies. We would not end up in a situation where people would base themselves here in name only. We would want to benefit from it if we were going to set aside a fund like this.

The idea of this fund is it would be taking a stake in companies. It would be obviously saleable in the medium term. The idea is to crowd in other investors to get the companies to list for them to grow so they will base their operations here and that ultimately there will be employment, intellectual property and the tax base going forward here and that they will grow from an Irish base into the future. That money will be recycled in relatively short order into other companies.

Would they be connected with IDA Ireland?

Probably both Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland. Many of the companies coming through on the domestic front would have Enterprise Ireland backing. We work with companies that have done the Enterprise Ireland leadership for growth course and the CFO training courses. We work very closely with Enterprise Ireland.

Part of it would be using Ireland as a base to grow their company, so they are expanding internationally but from an Irish base. The other side of it is that by supporting these companies, especially with public markets. It is not just about the IPO, which is an important event, but about the ability to go back and tap the markets more frequently. What we have seen is companies very successfully use the market for doing further fundraising, whether that is to expand their business organically or on the international front but also for mergers and acquisitions as well and growing by that method.

All right. How does the savings and investment account proposal that has been put forward compare with the ISA in Britain?

At the moment, it is very similar. We are talking about options and there has been a lot of talk about the UK model and the Swedish model. We are seeing versions in continental Europe as well. Some of those are transitioning to best practice. I think the Swedish and UK models have been identified as best practice. Some of the features, as we alluded to, would be that it would be very simple and that the tax is managed by the provider. That is a huge incentive for people to open an account, invest and create that culture. With some of the specifics we are probably going to have wait until budget day when we see the allocations and applications but we are very much in favour of what has been mentioned so far.

We see across other Euronext markets some of the features of these products that work well and ISAs work well, as does the model in Sweden. Last September, the Commission published its recommendation on these types of products. It set out a number of features that would be important for any product coming to the market.

One of the witnesses' asks is about stamp duty exemption as part of budget 2027. What is the cost involved with that?

It is actually cost neutral because what is happening today is if you have an Irish company looking to list in the US it is given a stamp duty exemption, so any trading that takes place in the US is stamp duty exempt. If that company is also listed on the Irish Stock Exchange or Euronext Dublin, stamp duty of 1% applies, so if we do not get an exemption all the trading moves over to US, meaning there is no stamp duty collected on those companies anyway. It is quite a focused request and is specifically for Irish companies that list in their home market but also in the US.

There is no cost to it.

Do they pay their tax in the US instead of here?

If they are Irish-incorporated, they pay their tax here, but that is a separate issue to what we are looking for.

But that one is cost neutral.

I thank Mr. Byrne and Mr. Jones for being here. There has been a lot going on in the Houses the past two weeks. It is a busy time, and they came in on the sunniest of days.

From a guy who has studied business and the Irish Stock Exchange as part of a business course and even for the leaving certificate and beyond, based on their statement, the key issue does not seem to be access to finance but that Irish companies are not choosing Irish markets. I still remember the Eircom IPO. We were all going to make millions of euro out of it, and after that "IPO" in Ireland became a bad word. We have produced global companies like Ryanair and Kingspan but what has changed over the past decade or so that means scaling companies from Ireland are now looking elsewhere and are not choosing our home turf?

There are a few things there. Looking across markets generally and the numbers of IPOs globally today versus 20 years ago, there are fewer IPOs today. What is different is that we have moved to a passive investment world but whereas before private equity would take a stake in a company and after three or four years would exit, what we see is that there are more rounds of private equity. Private equity will buy a stake in a company from private equity, and that pushes up the valuation, so in terms of competition for IPO, private equity is a stronger competitor in the space. Having said that, we have many fantastic companies in Ireland that would be prime candidates for an IPO and being able to use the markets to do their fundraising but then also to have the markets on an ongoing basis. There is a real opportunity for us to promote public equity markets more but to do that, we need to address the absence of features that exist in other European markets that do not exist in Ireland, that is, the things we have spoken about such as the cornerstone fund, tax incentives for founders of companies and personal investment accounts to bring retail investment into the market. Having those elements just makes markets more attractive and accessible for smaller companies in particular.

The other thing that has changed is that, historically, because the Irish and UK markets were so connected, when Irish companies listed, they would do so in Dublin and in London as well. After-----

I was about to ask that. Has Brexit affected us in that area?

There is a combination of factors. Brexit has had an impact, but the other thing is that the Irish Stock Exchange joined Euronext. Euronext is very much a European model, and because we have the same offering in terms of equity market listings that the other Euronext markets have, and the fact that we have introduced more markets for companies to give them more choice, we expect the dynamic these days to be that an Irish company that wants to access public markets, everything that Euronext Dublin offers would be sufficient for its needs, and that it does not need to go down the road of a dual listing. Some companies will want to do that. That is absolutely fine and we will accommodate that but it is a different dynamic today from what it was pre-Brexit.

Other things that might make it more attractive is that we have increased the level of advisers who can work with companies and bring them to these new markets that we have introduced. We have introduced a market for SMEs called Access, very much targeting companies at that €10 million or €20 million valuation. We have a set of international advisers who are keen to work with Irish companies and bring them to the market. Our adviser headcount increased from five to ten last year so we expect that to follow through as well. Then there are a number of other measures we have made on our side about simplifying our rulebooks, harmonising them across Europe, but getting rid of some of the goldplating to make it more attractive in light of other initiatives happening at a European level such as the Listing Act and those items.

Mr. Jones referred in the opening statement to retaining headquarters, talent and intellectual property in Ireland but have we already lost companies because our capital markets are just not competitive enough for those companies?

It is probably not fair to say they are not competitive from the point of view that we have grown really large-scale companies out of Ireland that have been listed traditionally on the Irish Stock Exchange and Euronext Dublin. We have grown companies to be €20 billion or €30 billion. They have had global investor bases. In a typical shareholder register of a company that is listed, probably 30% to 40% will ultimately be US investors, 20% to 30% will be UK investors and about 30% will be European investors. A listing is a global listing. We are attracting capital from everywhere. We have the competitive tool set there to attract global investors. Some of the companies that have moved in the past have had maybe very US-centric business models, and that has been one of the reasons.

Michael Smurfit.

Yes.

Exactly, and I will complement what Mr. Jones said by saying that within markets - and we have always experienced this, and all markets do - there are new companies coming to the market but there also are delistings because companies will be taken private or there will be different corporate events that lead to a company leaving a market for perfectly legitimate business reasons, and that is just part and parcel of it. We never like to see any company leave the market, but the issue for us has been that we have not had that pipeline of companies coming through. It comes back to-----

Is that not because of our population given Ireland is small?

There is a combination of factors, but when we look at the types of companies that are starting up here and accessing venture capital, seed capital, etc., there are some fantastic high-growth companies in our economy. To get those companies to move to the next phase using public markets, as I have mentioned, when we look at other Euronext markets, the things that work well there we do not have in the Irish market. We have done the bits that we can do in revising our rulebook, streamlining them and making it more streamlined and less costly for companies to join our markets, but it is those features that are the subject of our asks of the Government that we believe will actually make a difference in terms of getting more companies to fund their growth through public markets and remain wedded to Ireland.

Are Irish pension funds investing in Irish growth companies? From what I hear, they are not. What is preventing that?

There probably is not the same home bias that there might be in other countries. As Mr. Byrne alluded to earlier, the likes of Bank of Ireland asset management and AIB investment managers have been subsumed into more global entities and the movement has been to passive investment rather than active investment over the past ten or 15 years. Again, that is tying in more globally. Then, as the Senator said, from a population and economy size, we are quite small in that global remit. We would love to see the cornerstone fund replace the lack of domestic institutional investors because in other markets that we see, such as the UK, France or some of the Nordic countries, there is a very regional or home bias from domestic-----

A prophet is never accepted in their home town.

AI, online activity and technology have radically transformed this sector. Even on my phone, I have Trading 212 and I keep an eye on matters. We have all become experts. I presume that has radically transformed Euronext.

In terms of the trading methodology?

Trading and everything else is online now. I remember before we used to have to go over Davys and then they would have our paper share certificates and all that.

With the Euronext model, we provide the trading platform and we have international firms that are connected to it. Just to give the Senator an example of the scale of this, we had 21 trading firms connected to the Irish Stock Exchange trading system before we joined Euronext and we have 36 trading firms today. We have had more firms join, and from a secondary markets perspective, being part of Euronext has been massively successful. What we have seen is liquidity shift, so the majority of trading in Irish shares takes place here on Euronext Dublin and we have seen recently that a number of companies have looked at their listing arrangements and have concentrated their listing in Dublin because it reflects the reality that the vast majority of their trading already takes place here anyway.

Do the witnesses have any good stocks that they would recommend for my pension?

I will have to stay schtum on that.

Every so often Senator McCarthy brings a sparkle of brilliance to the committee.

I am particularly interested in the question he asked about pension funds in Ireland etc. and about how we could use them better.

Regarding the opening statement, it is fascinating and a topic of personal interest to me. As Cathaoirleach of this committee, I wanted to get a better understanding of what is going on on the entrepreneurial action side of the economy in Ireland. One thing that struck me thinking about the witnesses' presence here today, if we looked back at 2023, Ireland received €28.8 billion in corporation tax. Obviously, €24 billion was affected by the payment from Apple. I think the headline figure came in at about €39.1 billion, which is 36% of Government income for that particular year. In 2026, it is looking to be somewhere around €34 billion. The figure is around 30% of the Government's income if we were to average it out. Although it is wonderful we have that money, it is an enormous bloated risk to the economy. I know I am going about this in a very roundabout way but the point I am making is that it reminds me so much of my childhood watching what happened with stamp duty where we got hooked on what we felt was a never-ending flow of money coming into the Exchequer. Where I am coming to with this is that there is a correlation there and we are not taking it seriously.

In particular, I want to draw the public's attention to the information about the new listings. At the end of 2024, we seemed to be very significantly behind other somewhat comparable economies like Greece and Portugal. I think the new listing figure for Greece was 21, Ireland was at four and Portugal was at ten. We had 24 new companies at the end of 2025 when the figure for Greece was 146 and the figure for Portugal was 49. I like to be as blunt as I can be. It is good for people to get a fair assessment of what is going on. Whose fault is it? Is it the fault of the Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment or is it the fault of the Department of Finance? Do the witnesses think there is a lack of vision within the system in Ireland? The interconnection is obviously the Department of the Taoiseach where these Departments are supposed to come together at sub-Cabinet level but do the witnesses think there is a profound underlying risk here? Could they give me some insight on that because I think people would be interested to hear about it?

The Cathaoirleach used the word "fault". I do not think I would use that terminology. It is the way our economy has evolved. We have multinationals that have operated very successfully in the Irish economy but we do have an exposure, as the Cathaoirleach highlighted. It is a sector of the economy that is hugely successful and needs to continue to be supported, but what we can do in parallel is support the growth of our domestic companies so that they can grow using Ireland as their base, fund themselves from Ireland and grow internationally and increase their employment here in Ireland and their global presence in a way whereby Ireland remains their base and they do not sell out at a point in the future. That is why the measures we have looked for in our pre-budget submissions and in our engagement with Government are all about supporting enterprise. The State agencies do a fantastic job in attracting companies to the market and supporting companies, but there are many players in the market that have a role to play in supporting companies, helping companies on their growth journeys and financing their business and their expansion, of which Euronext is one. When we look at other European markets, we can see features in those markets that are absent from the Irish market and we really need to crack that and accelerate the addressing of those issues so that we can provide the supports Irish companies need and they use Ireland to fund their growth but remain wedded to Ireland over the long term.

To add to that, the State has been very good at supporting the venture capital industry and distributing funds to create a more vibrant ecosystem there. We see a further focus on the public markets as well because the difference between public markets and the other staged forms of financing is that it is permanent capital once the money is raised. It does not need to be repaid. They are equity investors for the long term and then there is secondary liquidity and trading that so the companies can get on with their main business. The other thing to note is that, in times of crisis, as we would have seen in Covid, we would have seen some of our companies come back to the market such as Dalata and Ryanair, to raise money in that crisis so they did not need to come back to the State to keep things moving. Public markets are always open in good times and bad times. The price might be different but it can secure the long-term nature of-----

Stamp duty was contributing 8% to the Exchequer by 2007 at the peak of the boom, so that is 19 years ago now. It is amazing to think it is that long ago. Corporation tax today is now 31% of Government income. Regarding stamp duty, the correlation is fascinating because, between 2000 and 2006, it actually doubled its base in terms of how much it was worth to the annual income of the Government. I think an undetected crisis is coming. It is like Wile E. Coyote and Roadrunner. They have gone over the cliff, they are still going and the momentum is there but it will be determined completely by international economic circumstances and the danger with the corporation tax side of things is that we are so susceptible. We have turned the economy here into nearly a vassal economy. The witnesses are right to identify the successes of the State agencies. They have done spectacular work, but the policy angle here and the numbers the witnesses have identified are of concern to me and I am glad we are discussing them.

I asked about fault. I understand that it is very difficult for companies to come in here when we are in an environment under privilege and castigate or lay blame, but who do the witnesses think has more work to do? When it comes to policies that need to be changed, is it the Department of Finance or the Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment? Could the witnesses give us a bit of a pointer? I appreciate the fact that the witnesses have come in here today because we have been seeking to discuss issues of entrepreneurial activity and trying to strengthen economic policy in this respect with other groups that on multiple occasions have turned down invitations to come before us or found excuses, including some of the biggest incubators in Ireland, which is so disappointing. I have really tried to make this one of the cornerstone issues for the committee but, to be fair, the witnesses have come in and I appreciate that. Will the witnesses give us a bit of a pointer because we want to know? I am not trying to trip anybody up.

Our opening statement reflects the asks that we have of Government. Many of those asks fall in the finance scope and the cornerstone fund probably more pertains to enterprise, so it is a combination. For things to work successfully, there needs to be that joined-up approach because, ultimately, this is about supporting the growth of Irish enterprise over the long term so that it remains connected with Ireland and Ireland as its base for its international expansion.

Does Mr. Byrne think that is essentially why new listings stand at a figure of four for 2025 versus that of other countries that seem to be multiples of that?

A large part of it is that the features that exist and work well in other European markets do not exist in Ireland because the Euronext offering is identical between Dublin and the other seven Euronext markets and, as the Cathaoirleach can see from the opening statement, there is activity in other markets that we do not have here. That dynamic is changing.

Why does Mr. Byrne think Irish companies in Ireland are de-listing and going elsewhere?

There is a combination of factors. It is not that they are always de-listing and going to another market. We had some larger companies de-list because they were very much US-focused in where their business is today and where they see their business developing, but for other companies, de-listing is part of the normal stock exchange cycle. They can be bought out or takeovers can happen, but the issue for us is not necessarily around de-listing. We do not like to see any company leave but it is more that we have not had that pipeline of companies coming through, and that is the part of the equation we are trying to tackle and address so that we have more companies coming through and, even when companies do leave the market, which is natural, it does not have as significant an impact because we have that pipeline coming through.

My apologies, there is a lot going on in this building. A lot of people think nothing happens in here but, trust me, it does. It keeps your steps going.

I am fascinated to hear at first hand, over the past ten years, between Covid and the geopolitical situation, about how Euronext got through that, and where we are going in the future. What way are we future-proofed in terms of the stocks? Do the witnesses look at the Stock Exchange in London as a threat or as an ally? There is a lot in that.

As the Deputy rightly points out, over the past ten years between Covid and the geopolitical situation, a lot has changed. The one constant is that the markets have remained open in terms of companies coming to the market. This is generally across the Euronext markets. We have been able to keep the markets open for new companies to join but also in terms of trading activity, for companies that are on the Stock Exchange. We kept trading open even during Covid. With news coming out related to geopolitical developments, we have seen volumes on the markets increase massively but all of that has been well catered for and operated very successfully. The Deputy mentioned London. Historically, the Irish and UK markets were very intertwined. In fact, the Irish Stock Exchange was a branch of the London Stock Exchange for a period. Historically, Irish companies tended to dual-list. They would take a listing here in Dublin but also a listing in London. We cater for those companies that are interested in doing that but being part of the Euronext group, our focus is a European focus. The London Stock Exchange today is a different market from what it was a number of years ago. Euronext is twice as large as the London Stock Exchange in terms of the number of companies listed across our eight exchanges. Across the eight exchanges, we have 1,800 companies listed. Across Europe every day, 25% of the trading in shares taking place takes place on Euronext markets. We are number one for SME listings and for tech company listings as well. The London market today is a different market. We can facilitate Irish companies that want to take a listing with us but also take a listing in the UK. The way we would see it, particularly post-Brexit, for the majority of Irish companies that want to use public markets to fund their growth, a listing on Euronext is all they need and will deliver everything that they need.

The only thing I might add on the future-proofing is that we have harmonised and simplified our rules over the past 18 months. We have introduced an Irish corporate governance code as well for companies that would have previously just relied on the UK corporate governance code. We have done this with all the stakeholders in Ireland just to make sure that it is appropriate with investors and everything else as well. We are trying to see what we can do to make the journey simpler for companies that are on the market. We are trying to be as sensible as we can. Introducing the junior market as well, the access market, was another key accomplishment on our side for last year and that is really helping us increase the pipeline of SMEs that are looking at listing at the moment.

On the future-proofing point, at a European level there is a recognition that we need to do work to keep European companies grounded in Europe and European markets to become more competitive. There is a lot of work taking place at a European level to look at legislation that impacts capital markets, to better integrate capital markets. Even in the listing world, which is very relevant for us, with the listing Act, initiatives have been introduced in terms of European securities legislation which recognise the need to streamline the legislation and the requirements, to make it easier and less costly, particularly for SMEs, to access public markets so we can allow European companies to grow using European capital markets, and remain grounded in Europe as time goes on.

When I got elected, one of the first things I did was this. On a Monday and a Friday, I visit as many SMEs as possible. That might spin very parochial down in Wexford and Wicklow but the issues I am hearing at the coalface are being replicated right across Ireland. In my opinion, per capita, Ireland must have one of the highest numbers of start-up companies in the world. The energy and ideas out there are simply incredible. However, they build up to a certain level and for whatever reason, whether it is access to funds, which is a key issue that is coming back to me, or nervousness, they want to get out. Maybe they just see their gold handicap going down and they want to get out. How can we help there in respect of the key issue of access to funds for these start-ups? They are not new companies, they are slowly building up, but when they come to a turnover of maybe €50 million, all of a sudden it is time to get out. Could I have the witnesses' comments on that?

They are the types of companies we are talking to about doing our strategic financing course and exploring whether the stock market might be for them. We run a six-month course and target those types of companies that might be looking at the next phase and deciding if it is transition management, staying with it or selling out. We are very much trying to encourage companies to stay the course and not sell out. We want to see more companies grow. We are trying to work with them to see what the mechanism is, and bringing on other people in their senior leadership team who might take the helm so there is another phase of growth for those companies even if the founder might step back or take a chairman-type role, and see how the company wants to progress. We are talking with those types of SMEs that are at that juncture and wondering where to go next.

It is a real risk for the Irish economy that there are very successful founders of companies who grow them to a certain size and are at that crossroads. When a big cheque is waved in front of them it is very easy for them to take that and the company's operations then start moving overseas. When we are talking to founders of companies and presenting public markets, the nice thing about public markets is that they provide an option to founders of companies to raise capital to grow their business but also the ability to tap the markets at a later date to grow their business even further. For us one of the important asks we have in our pre-budget submission is around enabling those founders of companies to take a bit of equity off the table at some point in a tax-efficient way, so they can release some equity. That enables them to take some cash off the table, yes, but also keep the business grounded in Ireland.

That is hugely important. Never was there a more frightening statistic in this room than the statistic of how dependent we are on FDI. If something goes wrong, it is so important in some way to wrap our indigenous industries in cotton wool with the support Euronext is giving out there. We as a Government must back Euronext on that. We do not know what is going to happen across the water, or what is going to happen in the UK in the next 48 hours. In respect of the emphasis in our tax take and employment, it is a mind-blowing figure how dependent we are on that. We need to get our head out of the sand and look at our indigenous industry. Why are they leaving when they are just becoming profitable? There are other ways to keep them in.

In the US, some founders of companies there are serial entrepreneurs. They bring their company to the market but then they go to bring another company to the market. We need to encourage that in the economy here as well.

I just want to add to that point. The Leas-Chathaoirleach is making a very serious point. I would love to find out who is not taking it seriously. Everybody with a brain knows this is a massive risk. Even the Department of Finance has been highlighting the concentration of corporation tax, the fact that 60% of it is coming from less than a dozen companies. In the era of AI there could be lots of Nokia moments in business, where business models we thought would never end could fall apart in a matter of years where it formerly took decades. It should be a lot more concerning to people in the Department of enterprise. We have flogged that one today.

I thank Mr. Byrne and Mr. Jones for being with us today.

This is a really valid and important conversation to have at this time with where we are at as a society but even from a European perspective. Looking at the success of indigenous tech companies across the EU, we are not seeing the same volume of global players coming out of our jurisdiction. That is a real risk and that risk will come home to roost with the concentration of AI, where that is controlled and powered and everything. There are probably many examples of European companies that have been successful in tech but we are not in the leading space.

One thing we hear a lot is that Irish businesses can secure decent seed funding or angel investment and I see a lot of companies seeking the employment investment incentive scheme, EISS - these are what you hear - but when it comes to securing that €10, €20 or €50 million to scale, the options become much more limited. In the experience of the witnesses, is that the biggest obstacle that faces early stage, high-potential start-ups in Ireland? What is the solution to that?

That funding gap in that €3-10 million area was identified by the Department of enterprise in the action plan last year. The risk we see with that as VC and other investors come in to fund that gap, it may be driven by non-Irish venture capital and ultimately the future of those companies may be dictated elsewhere and outside the control of management. That is why we are trying to target companies, even at that early stage, to consider public markets, because if they can approach public markets and raise that €3-10 million in public markets, they will have a broad investor base, it will be from global investors, there will not be one or two shareholders dictating the future course of the company, and the management team can then continue to have operational control, direct the business and grow the business here in Ireland. We see that as an important feature too.

The Deputy is also right to identify that, within tech, we have not necessarily seen the companies come through of the scale of the US yet, but we are probably early in that journey on AI. Across our markets, we are seeing huge investor interest in investing in chip manufacturers, data centre providers. What we probably have not seen is consumer software companies of scale come through yet, but there is an appetite among European investors to invest and fund those types of companies as well.

To add to that, where previously public markets tended to be for larger companies – somewhere north of €50 million – we recognised there is a gap there that needs to be addressed. That was one of the incentives for us to deliver the access market which came into force at the end of last year. That market is specifically designed for much smaller companies between the €5 and €20 million range doing small fundraising, but it is enough to incentivise them to use public markets to fund their growth. The idea is that, over time, as they grow, they graduate up to the other market. That is an important factor in addressing the gap the Deputy identified.

Getting to the bones of it, is there a disconnect between the risk appetite and the funding? I assume across the European Union there is no shortage of allocatable capital. I assume there is plenty of capital out there. Is the choice of a young entrepreneur going to America to really ramp things up because the risk appetite is there to take the gamble on the start-up? Are the witnesses seeing that appetite out there to find these companies in Ireland or the European Union, to scale them and drive them or are people being encouraged to go across the water because it might not be as hard to raise the capital and they might get it handier? That might be an oversimplification but that is the story that I tend to hear. You can raise capital a lot easier over there because the risk appetite is there and people will be more inclined to take a chance, whereas here you get bogged down with formalities, investigations and all sorts.

I think we are seeing family offices and others mushrooming up in Ireland which are willing to take on some of that higher risk, higher reward elements. On the point about going to the US and listing there, the thing to remember is the companies that ultimately do list there are much bigger in scale and investors are expecting companies that are maybe worth €5 to €10 billion to IPO whereas we are targeting companies at an earlier stage, whether we are trying to position our early stage markets to compete with series A or series B funding rounds, so we think it is very different. The companies can grow at an early stage, use public markets, create their own destiny and, ultimately, can get global investors over time.

I hate to cut the Deputy off but it is 1.56 p.m. We have a session at 2 p.m. and we need to break for five minutes.

I am happy enough to finish there. I really appreciate the work the witnesses are trying to do. I will make one last point. I believe there should be greater incentives for Irish investors, from a tax perspective, to invest in Irish-listed companies. I have raised this in the Dáil previously. I think there is merit to it.

I acknowledge the witnesses own work in the entrepreneurial activity. They have a strong interest in it and I appreciate it.

That concludes the first session. I thank our witnesses, Mr. Byrne and Mr. Jones, for taking the time to be with us here today. It was a very interesting conversation and informative to the work we are doing, certainly in our future discussions with the Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment. We have learned a great deal from your time here and it is much appreciated, so thank you both, and thank you to the organisation, Euronext Dublin.

The committee will now discuss the issue of the national greenway strategy in private session first as a scoping exercise. I know this has been raised by a number of committee members.