We are joined today by the Minister of State with responsibility for European affairs, Deputy Thomas Byrne, to update us and engage with the committee on developments at the General Affairs Council, GAC. The Minister of State is accompanied by officials from his Department. He is very welcome. I am delighted to meet a neighbour. He is an extremely hardworking Minister of State. We are all aware he has quite an onerous task ahead of him, given all that is going on in Europe and with European affairs, as well as the large responsibility Ireland has coming up soon. We wish him well in his task and job of work. There is no better man for the job.

Today's discussion will be on the most recent and upcoming General Affairs Council meetings and EU-related matters, including preparations for the Irish Presidency of the Council of the EU next year. The General Affairs Council is a body that prepares meetings for the European Council and has responsibility for several cross-sectoral policy areas. Since our last engagement on this topic, it has met four times, most recently last Monday, 17 November 2025, when it discussed a range of topics, including proposed EU budgets for 2028-34, developments in EU-UK relations, the 2026 Commission work programme and the rule of law dialogue for the member states.

Turning to privilege and some housekeeping matters, we have no witnesses other than the Minister of State.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses, or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must by physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. A member will not be permitted to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any member taking part via MS Teams that, prior to making their contribution to the meeting, they confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

We will begin with the Minister of State, Deputy Thomas Byrne, who has five minutes to make his opening statement. The floor will be open to questions after that. A number of members have indicated already.

Gabhaim buíochas le baill an choiste as an gcuireadh teacht os a gcomhair tráthnóna chun labhairt faoi forbairtí sa Chomhairle Gnóthaí Ginearálta. Tá cuireadh an choiste tráthúil toisc gur fhill mé inné ón gcruinniú is déanaí den Chomhairle Gnóthaí Ginearálta a bhí ar siúl ar an Luan. Chlúdaigh ár gclár oibre réimse leathan saincheisteanna lena n-airítear ullmhúcháin don Chomhairle Eorpach mhí na Nollag; caidreamh an Aontais Eorpaigh agus an Ríocht Aontaithe; chomh maith leis an tuarascáil bhliantúil ar riail an dlí. Phléamar freisin an dul chun cinn maidir le caibidlíocht an creatlaí airgeadais ilbhliantúil a bheidh ina phríomhréimse oibre le linn Uachtaránacht na hÉireann ar an Aontas Eorpach. Tá se seo an-tábhachtach.

Mar is eol don choiste, d'fhoilsigh an Choimisiún a phlean níos luaithe i mbliana. Tríd agus tríd, fáiltíonn an Rialtas roimh uaillmhian na dtograí a thugann aghaidh ar go leor do na héilimh agus na dúshláin atá roimh an Aontas. Ag cinntiú go léirítear dearcaí agus tosaíochtaí na hÉireann sna idirbheartaíochta a bheidh muid dírithe go príomha anois. Tá tosaíochtaí tábhachtacha amhail an Comhbheartas Talmhaíochta; taighde agus nuálaíocht; agus iomaíochas agus simpliú curtha chun cinn agam i gcruinnithe i ndiaidh a chéile na Comhairle Gnóthaí Ginearálta agus in áiteanna eile freisin.

I gcomhthéacs na ndúshlán geopholaitiúla, ní mór dúinn a chinntiú go mbeidh buiséid an Aontas Eorpaigh oiriúnach don todhchaí. Ní mór don Rialtas cur le láidreacht agus iomaíochas na hEorpa; tacaíochtaí leordhóthanach a chur ar fáil do mhéadú an Aontais Eorpaigh; agus acmhainní a chur ar fáil d'atógáil na hÚcráine. Ní mór dúinn ár dtiomantas don Mheánoirthear a choimeád freisin agus a chinntiú go gcoimeádfaidh an tAontas Eorpach a cheannaireacht i gcúnamh daonnúil agus cúnamh forbartha. Mar is eol don choiste, níl ach thart ar 240 lá fágtha againn anois roimh thús ár nUachtaránacht ar an Aontas Eorpach a thosóidh ar an 1 Iúil 2026. Is í seo ár n-ochtú hUachtaránacht ar an Aontas Eorpach. Tá dea-cháil tuilte ag Éireann as Uachtaránachtaí rathúla, lán-tionchar a reáchtáil. Tá an Rialtas muiníneach gurb amhlaidh a bheidh an bhliain seo chugainn.

Is turgnamh orgánach, agus uathúil ar go leor bealaí, é an tAontas Eorpach, gan fasach sa stair, agus 27 ballstát á dtabhairt le chéile chun comhpháirtíocht a chruthú ionas gur láidre le chéile sinn. Is tréimhse dhúshlánach í seo chun cás an Aontais a bhrú chun cinn. Tá méadú suntasach feicthe againn ar mhothúcháin fhrith-Aontas-Eorpach i roinnt ballstáit, forbairt nach bhfuilimid díolmhaithe go hiomlán uaithi. Mar sin féin, is tábhachtach a mheabhrú go bhfuil an-tóir ar an Aontas Eorpach agus ar ár mballraíocht ann sa tír seo fós. Go deimhin, i roinnt pobalbhreitheanna, is sinne atá i measc na nEorpach is díograisí. Breathnaím ar ár nUachtaránacht mar dheis den scoth ár ról feabhsaithe a úsáid chun a léiriú cén fáth go bhfuil an tAontas Eorpach go maith d'Éirinn agus cén fáth go bhfuil Éire go maith don Aontas Eorpach. Coinním an fócas seo i gcuimhne agus mé ag plé le pobail ar fud na hÉireann roimh Uachtaránacht na hÉireann ar an Aontas Eorpach.

Ceann de ghnéithe daonlathacha móra an Aontais ná an deis a thugann sé de gach ball, beag nó mór, an cheannaireacht a ghlacadh. Táimid i mbun clár uaillmhianach a phleanáil maidir le tosaíochtaí agus beartais Uachtaránacht an Aontais Eorpaigh a chlúdaíonn réimsí ina bhfuil fúinn dul chun cinn fiúntach a dhéanamh. Beidh breis agus 150 cruinniú á reáchtáil ag Éirinn ar leibhéal aireachta agus ar leibhéal oifigiúil agus beidh líon suntasach dóibh á reáchtáil lasmuigh de Bhaile Átha Cliath, rud atá an-tábhachtach. Tá sé seo á hullmhú i gcomhthéacs clár oibre straitéiseach an Aontais Eorpaigh, a ritheann ó 2024 go 2029, agus an raon tionscnamh atá beartaithe mar chuid de chlár oibre an Choimisiún Eorpaigh 2026.

Sna míonna atá romhainn, beidh tionchar ag éabhlóid clár oibre reachtach na Comhairle le linn Uachtaránacht reatha na Danmhairge, agus ansin le linn Uachtaránacht na Cipire, ar na tosaíochtaí sonracha a bheidh á gcur chun cinn againn sa dara leath de 2026. Beidh méadú an Aontais Eorpaigh ar cheann de na réimsí sin. Tacaíonn Éire go láidir le méadú an Aontais Eorpaigh, rud a bhfuil tábhacht geostraitéiseach riachtanach leis ionas go gcruthófaí Eoraip níos seasmhaí agus níos sláine, ach atá go mór chun leasa ár ngeilleagair freisin. Cuimhneoidh go leor againn ar lá na bhfáiltí in Áras an Uachtaráin in 2004 nuair a tháinig deich mballstáit isteach san Aontas faonár nUachtaránacht, an méadú ba mhór riamh san Aontas Eorpach. Cé nach dtarlóidh aon rud chomh drámatúil sin maidir le méadú le linn Uachtaránacht na hÉireann ar an AE an bhliain seo chugainn, fanfaidh an réimse seo ina phríomhthosaíocht dúinn agus tá súil againn dul chun cinn suntasach a dhéanamh in iarrthóireachtaí aonair. Luann Tuarascáil um Méadú 2025 an Choimisiúin gur "féidearthacht réalaíoch" iad uaillmhianta Mhontainéagró agus na hAlbáine chun gach idirbheartaíocht a chríochnú faoi 2026 agus 2027 faoi seach.

Mar léiriú breise ar ár dtiomantas de mhéadú an Aontais Eorpaigh, d'oscail Éire ambasáidí cónaithe le déanaí sa tSeirbia, sa Mholdóiv agus i mBoisnia agus Heirseagaivéin. Thug mé cuairt ar Mhontainéagró, an Úcráin, an Mholdóiv, an Albáin, an Mhacadóin Thuaidh agus an Chosaiv. Thug leas-príomh aire gnóthaí eachtracha agus Eorpacha Mhontainéagró cuairt ar Bhaile Átha Cliath i mí Mheán Fómhair. Creidimid go neartóidh an méadú an tAontas Eorpach, go háirithe i ndomhan atá lán d'éiginnteacht agus de chorraíl, le timpeallacht trádála domhanda atá athraithe go bunúsach anois. Mar thír le geilleagar beag oscailte, anseo in Éirinn táimid thar a bheith leochaileach agus muid ag plé leis na forbairtí seachtracha seo. Léiríonn an réaltacht nua seo an géarghá d'Éirinn ceannaireacht a thaispeáint agus comhpháirtíochtaí láidir a chaomhnú lenár gcomhghleacaithe san Aontas Eorpach.

Mar a fheiceann an choiste, táimid ag plé le réimse leathan beartas i gcomhthéacs ár n-ullmhúcháin don Uachtaránacht agus is cinnte go leanfaidh gnéithe de seo ar aghaidh ag forbairt. Níl aon amhras ach go bhfuilimid ag feidhmiú i ré lán le teannas domhanda agus éiginnteacht. Le cogadh san Eoraip, atá anois ag teannadh lena cheathrú bliain; le drochiarmhairtí leanúnacha an fhoréigin agus an bhfulaingt le déanaí i nGaza; leis na drochthorthaí ar fud an Mheánoirthear i gcoitinne; leis an teannas trádála sa chaidreamh Atlantach; agus le an-chuid saincheisteanna eile lena n-áirítear an t-athrú aeráide agus drochiarmhairtí COP 30, tá clár oibre lán romhainn. Ag tarraingt inspioráide ónár stair anseo in Éirinn agus san Eoraip, agus ó na dúshláin atá sáraithe againn san am atá thart, níor cheart dúinn ár ndóchas nó ár n-uaillmhian a chailleadh. An tosaíocht atá againn agus muid ag ullmhú d'Uachtaránacht an Aontais Eorpaigh ná oibriú go dlúth lenár gcomhpháirtithe san Aontas Eorpach chun saol níos seasmhaí, níos rathúla agus níos síochánta a chruthú.

Táim ag súil le tuairimí na mball agus a gcuid ceisteanna. Déanfaidh mé mo dhícheall iad go léir a fhreagairt.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire Stáit. Tá a lán oibre le déanamh aige.

I am happy to answer in English or Irish but I just thought it was good to begin in Irish.

An-mhaith. Tá an statement seo ón Aire Stáit ar website Thithe an Oireachtais. Anois, tá cúig nóiméad ag an Seanadóir O'Loughlin agus ansin cloisfimid ón Teachta Ó Murchú. Lean ar aghaidh, a Sheanadóir.

Tá Gaeilge líofa ag an gCathaoirleach.

Tá beagáinín agam. Níl bhíonn seans agam í a chleachtadh.

An-mhaith. Tá sé go hiontach gur labhair an tAire Stáit i nGaeilge. I thank the Minister of State. I commend him on his energy, enthusiasm and passion for what he is doing. I have been following a lot of the meetings that he has been going to outside of Ireland, representing our country, our State and our Government.

He has been doing it incredibly well. There is no doubt that Europe is going through a very difficult time. When we opened the papers and listened to the news this morning, we saw 19 more people have been killed in Ukraine and 66 injured. Infrastructure has been damaged. Like with the Minister of State, I have travelled to Ukraine, and we know the importance of the rail infrastructure in getting provisions for the people who are living there, and for ensuring that people outside of Ukraine have the opportunity to go and show solidarity and bear witness to the horrific things that are happening.

I refer to the role he sees Ireland taking in this horrific situation, and it obviously does not just impact Ukraine, we see time and again incursions from Russia into other European countries. I ask the Minister of State to comment on where we are with that. In relation to the priorities as we approach the MFF, I note the Minister of State has been very strong on CAP, competitiveness and simplification. They are key areas that are very important to our country. Engaging with communities is important because while Irish people are very strong about being part of the European community, we need to do more reaching out, particularly to our younger people coming through. The Minister of State is opening, or may have opened, consultation with people about what they would like to see. I ask him to tell us a little bit about that.

The Department is looking at 250 venues, many of them outside Dublin. We would love to see the Minister of State come to County Kildare. He would be more than welcome. The Commissioner, Michael McGrath will appear before the committee on 26 November, to talk about the European democracy shield, which is a very innovative new project. How can the Minister of State see Ireland leading the way during the Presidency on that?

I would not mind some follow up on the European democracy shield. We are talking about the rule of law.

I spoke to the Minister of State earlier on the issue of cyber meeting disinformation meeting hybrid warfare. Having protections and the right rules and regulations is important, even from the point of view of needing to ensure we protect ourselves from AI while at the same time utilising AI for the benefits it can bring, whether we are talking to business, health or whatever else.

We have dealt with the questions around the EU and the leverage that needs to be used in relation to Gaza and Palestine, Ukraine and Sudan.

The Minister of State brought up the Presidency. In relation to the portal, where people have an opportunity, they must put on the record issues they believe are important. On the rule of law, has there been any conversation or is there a belief that things have moved on? We all know the issues that have existed in relation to Hungary and Poland.

In respect of multi-annual funding, the Minister of State mentioned the necessity of ensuring that CAP is protected. This falls into the category of other issues that we spoke about earlier, such as Mercusor and safeguarding, as well as the nitrates derogation and ensuring we have CAP. The whole idea is that we can ensure there is a plentiful supply of food of particular quality.

I have no doubt that alongside those other issues is the issue of migration. There are particular issues that we have here. The mechanisms that have been put in place across Europe are all well and good, but we obviously have one particular issue in relation to the Border.

I am going to use the wrong terminology but on "Morning Ireland" earlier, there was a conversation around a European Union DPP. I ask for a comment on that because there are conversations ongoing. That is a considerable amount to start with.

I ask the Minister of State to engage with both of those contributors. Others have indicated as well. We will take them afterwards.

I thank the Senator and the Deputy. I will just go through their questions in order as best I can.

On Ukraine, in terms of solidarity, what is going on there is outrageous. We have given a lot. This was raised by way of complaint by one Deputy in the Dáil. It was essential that we gave extensive political, humanitarian, military and economic support to Ukraine. As I keep telling people abroad, approximately 2% of the Irish population are Ukrainian refugees. We have provided €138 million in humanitarian assistance and stabilisation supports to date. There was another funding package of €33.4 million during UN high-level week. We have also committed €100 million bilaterally in non-lethal military support, and we continue to provide contributions under the European PEACE facility. The most recent funding package of €35.4 million in humanitarian support provides vital life-saving humanitarian assistance. I witnessed that myself when I went to Odessa.

We funded what were called bomb shelters at schools, but they were actually underground schools. We saw a full school with a speech therapy room, gym, table tennis room, language lab and everything else. This served as a bomb shelter at nighttime. There are other supports we will continue to give. There are many discussions going on.

Ireland is part of the coalition of the willing, which is trying to see what possibilities there are for peace. We have been very clear that we support efforts to provide Ukraine with military support to defend itself, as it is entitled to do under international law, against the aggression, and put it in a position of strength. That is why we have given this non-lethal military support. Ukrainian defence forces will need to be strong in protecting their country even after a ceasefire.

In terms of our involvement into the future, we are of course open to Irish involvement in any future peacekeeping mission but that depends on what form it takes and what mandate it receives. It would not be part of a border security or deterrence force. That is not what the Irish Army does but we can certainly examine that if it were to come to it. Unfortunately, it has not come to that yet in terms of the discussions we are at.

Regarding the Presidency consultations, there will be 250 meetings and 22 ministerial meetings. Approximately a quarter of these will be outside Dublin. We are trying to spread them around the country as best we can. As for the 250 other meetings, I was just talking to my assistant secretary who has a meeting at her level as well. There will be many others similar to that. We want as many of them as possible to be held outside Dublin. With some ministerial meetings, the meeting might be held in Dublin Castle, but there will be an event in to a local area. I could certainly see that happening at the agricultural space, as representatives tend to visit farms or whatever. That is likely to happen, although I am not directly involved in planning.

It is important, and again I would appreciate the committee’s help in getting the message out to every Minister and Department, that while the ministerial meetings are set at national level and we know where they are, Departments need to make sure that meetings are held around the country at every level, not just at ministerial level. The majority will be in Dublin but we need to spread it around and that is the message we are getting across in the system. We have to be careful because if it is difficult to get to a place, no matter how attractive we know it to be, fewer people will come. It is just a fact. I have seen it myself at different meetings. Many people, especially Ministers and leaders, will come in at maybe four o'clock in the afternoon and be gone by 12 o'clock the next day. It is not like they are here for a week. However, there will be some efforts, particularly at official level, to provide information on the tourism offerings in various parts of the country, and we do want to make sure they go around the place.

On the European democracy shield, it is best that Commissioner McGrath talks about that himself.

He has done a huge amount of work on that. He has worked with national parliaments, with all of us and with civil society. We are going to have a full discussion at the next General Affairs Council and we will have to see where that leaves our Presidency. There could be elements of this democracy shield that will be very relevant during our Presidency. At the end of the day, it has to be about how we protect the right of the people to decide who their leaders will be. Some of the speakers mentioned the threats to that.

Deputy Ó Murchú spoke about the Presidency consultation. I am here to hear from the members directly as well but there is a portal on the gov.ie consultation page, which is open until 12 December. Members are welcome, as is every member of the public, to put in their ideas on what our priorities should be. Our priorities will not be finalised until June. The deadline is 12 December but a lot of work then goes on. It is not lastminute.com. It is just that we do not overshadow other Presidencies. It is Denmark at the moment and then Cyprus. Those are the rules within which we operate. The reality is that, to a large degree, the priorities will be what is on the table at that time, the Commission work programme, the legislative programme, what files are there, what may have not moved on from the Danish or Cypriot Presidency and what events happen at that particular time. Covid happened in early 2020. Ukraine was invaded by Russia at the start of the French Presidency. These things can happen too. However, we do want to put an Irish stamp on it and we are entitled to do that. Having said that, we are the representatives and the independent broker for the member states on the Council. That is our job and we have to do that in an honest way, representing all the views that are there. It will be very interesting for us. The role is basically to get agreement among the member states, to liaise with the Commission on behalf of the member states and negotiate with the European Parliament on behalf of the member states. There is another very interesting aspect of the work. There will be quite a few international treaties under negotiation during our Presidency. There could be four COP summits. There may be a WHO treaty and a International Maritime Organization convention, which I spoke about yesterday. There will probably be others too. However, Ireland will represent the EU viewpoint, or at least try to co-ordinate the EU position. That will be a big role. Already, civil servants are planning what is a considerable administrative burden on them, to be prepared for this and to do the work. I thank everybody across the Civil Service, from my own Department across, who are doing all this work. It ranges from preparing a meeting room for the leaders, putting on the best show ever for the leaders in terms of representing this country, to actually organising document management systems for international treaty negotiations. Therefore, this is a big piece of work.

On the rule of law, we continue our work with Hungary. The Polish situation has changed with the change of government but Hungary is still very much in focus. We still have the Article 7 proceedings there. We talk to, engage and ask questions of Hungary but quite a high threshold is needed to bring it to the next stage and it is not clear whether the numbers are there. We would not get involved in any elections in Hungary but there is an election there next March. It remains to be seen who will win that election or whether there will be any changes. At the General Affairs Council this week, I answered for the rule of law in Ireland. The Commission does an annual rule of law report. It goes through Irish issues. It talks to civil society - it may even talk to committee members - as part of that process. It comes up with a report and makes recommendations. I had to answer questions on where Ireland was at on those recommendations, which is good because it keeps all of us on our toes. It is a useful exercise. I wish it was in public; it is generally held in private.

On the multi-annual financial framework, it is at the General Affairs Council that the negotiations take place. That is why it is really important this committee also keeps track of this. The Agriculture and Fisheries Council will deal with the technicalities of how the CAP will operate but negotiating the sum of money and the structure of the budget comes under the General Affairs Council. It is really important the committee keep track of this at all times. We are a very significant net contributor into the EU budget. In return for that, we get access to the Single Market. As I was saying on trade earlier, we benefit hugely - disproportionately - because of our membership of the Single Market. It is well worth every penny and work has been done on that in the past. On the multi-annual financial framework, we have a number of priorities. I outlined a number of them the other day. One is the Common Agricultural Policy. We want to make sure we get a robust, funded, separate, strong Common Agricultural Policy that incorporates, obviously, the direct payments to the farmers but also rural development. The LEADER programme is under CAP and has to be fully funded as well. There is still a lot of work to do.

One area I mentioned the other day, which will be of interest to Deputy Ó Murchú certainly, is the PEACEPLUS programme, which funds Northern Ireland and the Border counties. It is a pretty unique European fund. It is actually co-funded by the Commission, Britain and Ireland and it funds into the North and the Border counties. That is an important point for us.

On migration, that was discussed in depth at the European Council. The Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, will be the lead voice on migration when they get into the negotiations and discussions on it. We are in a unique position because of the common travel area. We get involved when we have to, or when we want to, and then we obviously have to deal with the United Kingdom as well. There could be some significant movement on this issue during our Presidency in terms of legislation and progress but that comes under the justice ministers as a matter of practice.

Regarding the European Public Prosecutor, I did not meet her today. As I understand it, the office will basically be tackling crimes against European Union funds and corruption involving EU funds. We did not join the European Public Prosecutor for quite some time because of our common law system. I am not sure who - it may have been the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, or his predecessor - took the decision to join. The decision was taken to join but it is not as though the office can prosecute crimes the DPP in Ireland would ordinarily be prosecuting. It is really focused on the EU and its funds generally.

I thank the Minister of State. That was very comprehensive. We will take Deputy Gogarty, then Senator Andrews and then Deputy Michael Murphy. We will take the three speakers together as there are only three of them left here.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire Stáit as ucht a ráitis. Bhí mé ag labhairt faoin Úcráin agus faoi Gaza cheana agus bhí an comhchoiste seo ag caint faoin Ungáir cheana freisin mar sin ba mhaith liom ceist a chur. I will say it as Béarla; tá sé níos éasca. The question relates to another committee I am on, the Joint Committee on Enterprise, Tourism and Employment. We had a visit from the Minister of State, Deputy Smyth, last week when we were discussing the Copyright and Related Rights (Amendment) Bill 2025. A commitment was given that the committee would write to the Department. I am not sure if the Minister of State got it directly or if it has even been sent yet, but there is a major issue connected to our cultural heritage related to the performance royalties for musicians. That Bill is trying to bring through some legislation through which, with discussions with RAAP, we are trying to get to an adjudication of how the royalties are divided up if there is a dispute. I do not want to go into the technicalities of that because it is not related to the Minister of State's remit. What is related is that the Minister of State, Deputy Smyth, pointed out that a lot of the legislation relates to work the European Union has to do. This concerns the equitable remuneration of royalties. As it stands, because the European Union has not enacted necessary legislation, Irish and other European artists are losing royalties. The European Union has to enact legislation related to decisions by the Court of Justice of the European Union. I refer the Minister of State back to the committee meeting of 12 November because what we supported at that meeting last week was that, during Ireland's EU Presidency, we would take the lead in making sure that legislation was passed through at EU level to ensure artists get fair remuneration for the performance aspect of the royalties payable. I am not expecting the Minister of State to have any knowledge of it as such but I am just raising it because he mentioned the consultation deadline of 12 December. From my personal recollection of the meeting, I am asking him to have knowledge of, or recourse to, perhaps putting that onto the agenda to make it a priority for Ireland's EU Presidency if it has not been dealt with by the Danes or by the Cypriots in the interim.

If no lead has been shown, we have a huge heritage leadership that we could show in relation to artists and the remuneration. Sin é.

I will answer in English if the Deputy wishes.

We will take a couple of questions together, if the Minister of State does not mind. I call Senator Andrews.

I thank the Minister of State for coming in. With regard to the Israel association agreement, what is the EU’s position? Where does that stand at the moment in light of Israel’s ongoing breaches of human rights and international law? Despite the so-called peace plan, Palestinians in Gaza are still being killed and murdered by Israel. Where is that Israel association agreement?

The Irish Government has dragged its feet on the implementation of the occupied territories Bill. In the EU, Spain and Slovenia have looked at introducing bans on trade, including goods and services, with illegal settlements in Israel. What is the EU’s position in relation to banning trade with illegal settlements?

At the start of last month, over 150 European citizens were kidnapped from international waters. Has the Irish Government or other European countries raised that within a European context, or are they just going to let Israel away with kidnapping European citizens whenever they feel like it?

I thank the Minister of State. I am not too sure whether there are too many questions left for me. First, I thank him for appearing before the committee today so soon after returning from the General Affairs Council meeting. He was in the Chamber for a long period of time before he attended this committee meeting here also. I thank him for setting out what is a very expansive agenda, all of which will form the backdrop for our Presidency. As the Minister of State knows, it is important this committee works closely with him, particularly in the context of the preparations. It is really good to hear there will be 250 events and a good regional distribution in the context of those events. To what extent are local authorities being engaged to ensure readiness for these events?

I asked the Minister of State at his last attendance at the committee whether he, as Minister of State with responsibility for European affairs, is satisfied that he has the sufficient resources, both financial and human, in terms of where we are now. I know he said that it is difficult because we cannot undermine the other two Presidencies regarding the two or three headline areas in which we want to make progress. I know he has commented in that regard before.

It is good to hear an update on the multi-annual financial framework, MFF, and the Common Agricultural Policy, CAP. I wish to better understand the next steps, the timelines and when the landing zone will be timewise. Will the landing zone for the MFF fall within our Presidency? Will we ultimately have a key role in those final negotiations?

In the context of the Minister of State’s opening statement, I am always interested in EU-UK relations, particularly the functioning of the various structures established under the EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement. TCA. I had the privilege of being an observer on the EU-UK Parliamentary Partnership Assembly, which is made up of 35 Members of the European Parliament and 35 members from Westminster. I do not know whether there been any assessment of the functioning of the parliamentary partnership assembly since it was established under the TCA but I am seeking an update in that regard.

We only have one more member indicating to speak. We will let Deputy Butterly in as well.

I apologise to the Minister of State for arriving so late. With regard to defence, we understand that Europe's concerns regarding its defence systems are very heightened. What role can Ireland play in joint capability projects, such as the SAFE loans? Second, seeing as there is more flexibility now in the EU budget, particularly in defence, how are we going to safeguard the budget when it comes to agriculture? Obviously, Europe is collectively wanting to invest more in defence programmes whereas the agricultural budget for us at home in Ireland is fundamentally important.

I will try to go through those questions. On Deputy’s Gogarty’s issue, I will certainly look into it. I am not familiar with it but, obviously, the legislative process in the EU is such that the Commission proposes. I do not know whether it issued a proposal on this area. If it has and it comes up during our Presidency, then, yes, it would be our job to, first, get agreement with member states and, second, get a qualified majority of member states to support it. We would then work with the European Parliament as well to get agreement on it. The Deputy talked about specific files and I will come back on the detail of them because we just do not know. That will be dealt with by the Minister, Deputy Smyth’s Department even during the Presidency.

The Commission has not issued a proposal.

We will find out. I do not even know the Commissioner this area might be under, but we will find out. Certainly, if it is something that we can help with, we will be happy to do so. I am here with Ms Maeve Von Heynitz and Mr. Andrew Byrne. Mr. Michael Lonergan is on one side of the house responsible for relations with the European Parliament and this committee. Part of that is to ensure we are building up connections with MEPs so that when files like that come out, we know who the key people are to talk to try to get them over the line when we have the Presidency. We are doing the foundational work that will apply in the case of that regulation or directive and anything else that comes out. Certainly, we will look into that and come back but, in terms of the Irish position, it is primarily the responsibility of the Minister of State, Deputy Smyth, and her Department.

In respect of Senator Andrews, I am glad he is safe and home because everyone was very concerned about him. I acknowledge that.

I am not convinced by it.

No, I am. Jesus, we were colleagues years ago.

I am only joking.

In fairness to the Senator even when he was-----

In fairness to the Minister of State, he is originally from the same family.

That is what I am saying. In fairness to the Senator, he is very consistent because when he was a part of our family, he was in Gaza as well. I remind him that around that same time----

I am only joking.

-----when he was in Gaza back in 2009 and 2010, Mícheál Martin was also there. Even within our political family, which the Senator left but with which he still has strong connections, we still-----

The Senator is not suggesting he is the prodigal son; let us be clear. There is a strong tradition in my political family for support for Gaza. Brian Lenihan Snr was the first western foreign minister to put forward the idea of two states living peacefully and securely side by side. That is what we and the EU support.

In terms of the exact position on the Israel association agreement, there was a proposal put forward by the Commission to suspend it. That is still on the table. A qualified majority of member states and a majority of the European Parliament are needed to suspend it. That is my understanding. That still is on the table. At the European Council, the GAC and other formats, we strongly argue that it remains on the table. That is where that is at. I do not know whether there is a qualified majority even to do what the Commission proposed to do but it was a significant move forward for the Commission to propose that. We have sought that for quite some time from an Irish Government point of view.

Will it stay on the table or is it actually going to move?

We would like it to move. That is the position of the Irish Government. We want it to move. I am urging the Commission, the Council and the Danish Presidency publicly to push that, but let us see. I have not added up the member states so this is really just guesswork but if a qualified majority is unlikely, or if there is a possible blocking minority, it may take the view not to push it.

On the occupied territories legislation, it is the case that some member states have moved forward. They have been able to do things without passing legislation. There was a royal decree in Spain. Most of those countries spoke to us before they did it. We spoke to them. We believe it is better to do this at EU level but we have obviously committed and will pass our own occupied territories Bill. I do not know the details of each and every one of them, however. I stand to be corrected on this because I have not studied them all, but some of them do not cover services. One of them, which I will not name because I do not want to create confusion, is partial in respect of services; it is not quite goods and services.

I was told it related to the advertising of services in one case, for example, which I suppose is similar, but it is complex. That has happened in a number of member states. For a number of them, I sent on the information from the Government as to the legal basis we had for doing it. They all have the same legal basis. The bottom line is that trade is a EU competence. The general principle is that we cannot do things on our own on trade.

Spain and Slovenia-----

This is the same as then. The change was when the advisory opinion came out from the International Court of Justice. That then gave us leeway in that our advice says we can take unilateral action on goods, not on services. That is the advice we have. My understanding is that it is the same advice that the other member states have, but the Senator would have to ask them exactly what they have done.

Is that political advice or legal advice?

Legal advice from the Attorney General. It is not political advice. That is where that is at. The Senator heard the Minister, Deputy McEntee, comment on that today. The UN Security Council has now approved. Thank God, the UN Security Council is functioning. Two permanent members abstained - China and Russia - but the peace plan did go through. The UN Security Council has the force of international law, effectively. We support this plan. It is not perfect by any means. There is some reference to two states or the realisation of a Palestinian state, which is bit of progress. It is probably not as much as we would like. However, that is there and we want to work with it and try to make it happen. The ultimate objective from an Irish point of view is to have two states living safely, peacefully and securely side by side.

On Deputy Murphy's point on the local authorities, I am doing a tour around Ireland. I was in Kildare. I have not got to a huge number of places yet because of the busy calendar, but there are quite a few of them planned. I was in Westmeath, Limerick and some others as well. I have done a few schools in my local area too. I was due to go to Cavan and Monaghan this weekend, but I am not going because of local circumstances on Friday for various reasons. That was in the plan. There is a diary entry in relation to that. I visit schools. Every TD, Senator and MEP representing the area is invited. We visit local authorities as well, including in Galway and Kildare. The general practice is that we have meetings in the council offices where people from the public participation network, PPN, are invited to talk about the Presidency of the EU. Council members are there as well. We do that in Limerick too. That will happen in Tipperary at some point and in other counties too.

There are two or three headline areas that I have spoken about before. We are still waiting on the public consultation, but broadly we want to see things falling into three categories. We think three is an easy number to remember, but we will see what comes up in the public consultation. If anyone has ideas for a one-word phrase that would sum up our Presidency, they might send them in. That is an open invitation. It is not that we are struggling but we want and appreciate ideas.

Deputy Murphy asked about the next steps on the CAP, which is the MFF. There was a discussion this week at the General Affairs Council and another last month. Officials are working night and day in negotiations. You would not believe the number of reports coming in and meetings taking place. It is so complex. I thank all of those officials who are sitting probably as we speak in windowless offices in Brussels negotiating all of this under our instructions. I set out the general political steer at the General Affairs Council. What we expect is the first draft of the negotiated box, as it is called, in December to come before the General Affairs Council and then go to the leaders to get their sense of where things are at. That will not have figures but it will be a general overview of where the negotiations are. The leaders then will give us the okay to go ahead.

I wish to emphasise that the negotiation, certainly at the moment from a legal point of view, is a negotiation among the member states. The European Parliament has to approve it, so we are keeping MEPs in the loop as we go along. We have done that from an early stage. The Government has set out and published our negotiating position and we are sticking to that. Somebody texted me the other day because it had been written in Politico that we had joined this frugal group of EU members, or it was certainly implied. Somebody asked me, "Will you please send us on the real negotiating position, not the one you published?" In fact, the one we published is the real negotiating position that I negotiated, that our officials are informed by and that the Taoiseach will be informed by because that is what the Government has agreed. What is within our negotiating position is what we want.

There are various issues with agriculture at the moment. We have a lot of irons in the fire on farming. The absolute top priority of the Taoiseach is to protect the Irish economy and the Irish people first of all, but specifically in terms of farming, Mercosur is coming out. It is under discussion. We can see public reports about that. In the past couple of days, I have seen a legal instrument to protect beef farmers going through the legal process in Brussels. The Government is still looking at that because we come from a point of view of trying to protect farmers. The members have asked us all to work with like-minded countries. Only yesterday, I had a meeting with the French minister for Europe. A range of issues were considered at it, including Mercosur. We also have issues coming up in relation to the nitrates derogation. These are serious issues. We are having extensive engagement with the Commission and other European officials. The MFF, which is the CAP, is important to farmers as well. There is a huge amount of work going on. Our objective is to protect the Irish economy and farmers and to work in all our interests. That is ongoing. It is not just as simple as big statements about where we are. There are a lot of moving targets there at the moment. We have to make sure that we are in what we think is the best possible overall position for farmers in Ireland.

On the TCA, what is ongoing at the moment is more of a European Parliament thing with Britain. We have officials on TCA committees and working groups, but the European Parliament has good engagement. It is maybe Barry Andrews who is on that or some of the other MEPs may be involved with that. That is going well. There has been a major reset on relations between the EU and the UK and between Ireland and the UK, which is positive. This week, we agreed the negotiating mandate, for example, for the Commission to negotiate a food and plant agreement - a sanitary and phytosanitary area, SPS, agreement - with the UK. That will be revolutionary. We see all those checks in Dublin for food and plant products. If we can get this SPS over the line, Dublin to Holyhead will be a lot more straightforward. Larne to Stranraer and Belfast to Cairnryan will be a lot more straightforward for all of these products. It will have a big impact for us, the North and Britain as well. It should have never left the EU without this, but we will let the Commission negotiate that. Hopefully that will come to a head during our Presidency.

Deputy Butterly talked about defence. At the end of the day, defence is a competence of the member states. There are opportunities to co-operate. On the safe loans, Ireland has not taken any and we have indicated that we are not going to because we do not need to borrow at the moment. There are rules there whereby member states can borrow more themselves. There are EU rules restricting the amount of money that can be borrowed. The EU has eased those rules for defence spending because member states have asked it, but we do not need to do that. We have not looked for it because we do not borrow. We do not even need to extend any borrowing limits we have under euro rules. It is not really affecting us at the moment. We are separately and independently, in our own decision, going to increase our defence capacity. We are doing that using our own money. We need to accelerate that because we need to make sure that, as the Taoiseach would say, we protect and secure the country.

To go back to what the Deputy is asking on the agriculture budget, it is the top priority when we go into discussion. It is the one receipt that we get from the EU that benefits communities throughout the country, whether it is farmers to ensure that we have food on the table, to ensure that we protect family farms and small farms all around the country that get these payments, and to ensure that we protect the LEADER programme. At the moment, I do not know where they are in the budget, but there is not really a figure attaching to them at the moment. That is something we have to change before the end of the negotiations.

We can alleviate farmers' fears that they are not going to be sacrificed for a bigger defence budget.

No. We can absolutely alleviate those fears. When we go in there, whether it is public - it was in public the other day when I was doing this negotiation - or in private, that is our topic priority. The farmers need not worry about that.

Apologies, I will just let Senator Andrews back in there. He wanted to clarify something.

Regarding the kidnapping of over 150 EU citizens, has Ireland or the EU raised that with Israel or will they just let it slide?

It was extensively raised - certainly at the time - bilaterally with the Israeli government. There was huge consular work on the Senator's behalf and on behalf of all the people. I spoke to the ambassador myself over that weekend on her engagement with the Israeli Government. I thank her and I am sure the Senator has had a chance in person. Massive efforts were made in what was a very difficult situation. Everyone was deeply worried about the Senator and the others. That is, the general public, his family and friends. I am sure we cannot imagine that but in officialdom, if we call it that, there was huge worry and concern. We were proactive in working out how best to handle this to protect all the citizens to ensure we did not have any problems they had at the time. I thank the embassy there for the work it did in engaging with the Israeli Government.

I agree. The embassy staff in Israel were unbelievably professional and effective in as far as they can be. Equally, the embassy staff in Athens were absolutely fantastic. They were so compassionate, efficient and professional. However, that is a different issue than citizens of Europe being kidnapped from international waters. Is the EU or Ireland not going to look for Israel to be held accountable for breaching international law? That is a clear breach of international law. What are the Irish Government and the EU doing about holding Israel to account for those violations?

If we are going to keep stepping outside legal frameworks and doing nothing, international law will mean nothing then, will it?

International law does not mean nothing. It is very meaningful but obviously with states that we would say are not abiding by it, it is then difficult. It is not like you can-----

The EU is a powerful bloc within the world order. What is it going to do about holding Israel and anybody who kidnaps people from international waters to account?

First, in terms of the Government, all those officials - and I was in Cyprus while the Senator was en route and our embassy in Cyprus was watching what was going on to be ready in case it needed to be of help - are acting under the direct instructions of the Government, of the Taoiseach and the Minister. People have asked what the Government is doing; they are doing the job of the Government.

All the measures I have spoken about are on the table at the EU level. I have said the EU has leverage we are not using and the EU collectively has more leverage than Ireland. I accept we have our own voice but we have more leverage working together and we have not used it. In particular, I have met counterparts in Germany and German politicians to try to talk to them about their position on Israel. It is a complex history for them, obviously, and they would say openly they simply do not criticise Israel publicly and do not take action publicly. I have spoken to them about that and tried to get my point across. I strongly suggest - and the Senator may have done it already, I think I have said it before - talking to the Senator's counterparts in the Bundestag or in the parliament there about that. Certainly, there are different voices in Germany and there are different voices within the Government. There are also voices that are more supportive of Israel than would be in the mainstream of German politics too.

There needs to be some level of understanding for that and that is why the EU cannot act. We felt during the summer the EU did not use the leverage it had. We continue to put huge pressure on the Commission to change. The change for Ursula von der Leyen in terms of coming out with the proposal she did was very significant. She is a German politician of a certain generation that traditionally has never done this for Israel, ever. She rightly recognised she was not a German politician, she is President of the European Commission and we were happy with that.

We want to see those measures move forward. The Taoiseach said this at the European Council and we said it too. As regards the specific question the Senator asked, I would have to refer that to the Minister because it is something that would come across my desk at all.

I thank the Minister of State for that. I call Deputy Murphy.

I mentioned the last time I was here that approximately 18 months ago, the Irish regions office in Brussels launched a strategy around an improved support service for local authorities in terms of better understanding the European landscape. There were two elements to that strategy. The first was a strengthening of human resources in Brussels itself. They went from two staff to four, which is great but the second element was eight EU affairs officer, with one EU affairs officer per three local authorities. There is a real appetite across local government to better understand not just the funding opportunities but the whole policy legislative agenda. There is a real opportunity coming up to the European Presidency. We have several local authorities which have dedicated EU strategic units. I think four of the 32 local authorities have a dedicated EU affairs officer and it is no coincidence it is those local authorities that are really successful in accessing EU funds. I just wanted to remind the Minister of State of the strategy. I am sure it is sitting somewhere. It is just the second element, namely, that idea of an EU affairs officer. Based on the old NUTS clusters, for example, my own county of Tipperary is clustered with Limerick and Clare and could really benefit from a shared resource.

I fully support what Deputy Murphy said and in fact, I realised I had forgotten to say it but we were at the meeting here when it was brought up by our members. This would be a very important asset.

Another area I wanted to raise was around the European migration pact. Obviously, we have signed up to it. However, given the situation in the UK, which has announced radical changes are coming, I heard the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, commenting that we cannot be in a situation in Ireland where we are going to be far more attractive for those to come to. I totally understand we need to monitor what is happening and respond in some way. In respect of how we are tied in with the migrant pact, I would be interested in the Minister of State's perspective on it.

If I could follow up on the migration question, we all know the positives relating to migration but you need a system that works. The Minister of State said himself he believed in the period of our Presidency that there could be big issues in dealing with collective legislation. We know there are several anomalies with the common travel area obviously creating one of them, that is, the issue regarding partition and the Border. We also have had a particular issue because we are not in Schengen and the access to databases and all those other pieces are anomalies that need to be sorted. Again, we have particular issues that need to be dealt with as well as they can be dealt with.

In fairness, to follow on from the issues Senator Andrews referenced, the biggest thing the EU has and the leverage we spoke about earlier, is the EU-Israel association agreement. You would think there would be a sufficient amount of conditions built-in that on the basis of the breaches of human rights and also, let us say, the many breaches of international law, including what happened to Senator Andrews himself, that this should have been enough to at least put it into cold storage - for want of a better term - if not to scrap it altogether.

Again, I have no doubt but that the Minister of State will restate that the Irish Government's position is this is an issue that still needs to be dealt with as a means of keeping some sort of pressure on Israel. However, sometimes, there is a feeling of despondency when you cannot get that sort of movement. That is why we also say we need to move with the occupied territories Bill ourselves.

I know the Minister of State said he does not want to deal with the European democracy shield.

No.

In fairness, he said that Commissioner McGrath will be able to deal with it comprehensively. There are various points. We can talk about the madness of social media and the issues we have on everything from cyber right through. It is also about ensuring we have the right level of regulation in relation to social media algorithms and AI. It has to work and has to provide protections. We must get that piece right. We saw Meta and whoever else recently cancel all political advertising, whether that is good, bad or indifferent. It is about trying to get that pendulum right in the middle, which does not always happen.

I thank Deputy Ó Murchú. I do not know if he missed it earlier but we discussed the fact that Commissioner McGrath will be before the committee on 27 November. I am sure he will be able to clarify matters in that regard. I thought I would let the Minister of State know that as well.

We contributed to the Commissioner's proposals, as did other member states. We European ministers will have a full discussion of the democracy shied in December. I met the Commissioner the other day and told him that we welcome the democracy shield. We were part of the consultation process. We want to ensure that democracy, rule of law and human rights are paramount in all this. We need to go through the various proposals. He has proposed a European centre for democratic resilience. We need to know more of the detail about that but in general, we are giving a strong welcome to it. We will be of strong support to the Commissioner because I think it is badly needed.

We in Europe have lots of rules on algorithm and content regulation, including the Digital Services Act and all of that. It would be no harm for the committee to look at the implementation. We also have people telling us there is too much regulation. We are hearing that from certain commercial interests.

I agree. Getting that point perfectly in the middle is incredibly difficult. I would not always take a line from social media companies, but rather than only allowing sound advertising political advertising, they just said they were accepting nothing. There is a question mark.

There are lots of question marks. We need to keep questioning.

Representatives of Coimisiún na Meán were before the committee in September.

That is good. The commission has an important job to do. The law is pretty strong and these investigations always take a bit of time. As I said on the radio on Saturday, there has been a lot of lobbying to say this is a breach of free speech. You hear that in America, in particular. We are told there is too much of a burden on businesses. The reality is that a lot of this is about protecting children. We are protecting our democracy. We are making sure there is not vile stuff that people do not want to see online.

People can reset their own algorithms daily if they want. It is a matter of going into an app and knowing how to use it to reset.

They will still push stuff on you.

That is there.

There are rules there and it is a question of enforcing them. I should say for the European Council that there were very strong conclusions from the leaders on having a human-centric digital strategy. I think that was the phrase that was used. One company in this space, an Irish SME, told me that "digital for good" should be a phrase and I think it is a good phrase.

On the local authorities issue, we have people with office space at the permanent representation to Brussels. They are dealing with the regions, which is important. I will come back on the issue of the local authority officer because that is something we need to ensure is actually done by the Presidency. That is useful because there are a lot of funding and business opportunities that could be identified by people. We have strong engagement, as the committee knows, with the European Committee of the Regions. Even the other day, there was a conference on enlargement and Councillor Gillian Coughlan was there as a representative of the European Committee of the Regions. It is good to see people popping up at events and asserting their place. The same goes for the European Economic and Social Committee, which has an Irish president. It partially represents civil society, which is important.

On the migration pact, we have an interesting situation on anything to do with justice and home affairs. We have to opt into these rules because of the common travel area. We fought for a long time to keep the common travel area. We want to keep and protect it. We want to ensure that Deputy Ó Murchú can drive to Sainsbury's if he wants to. I am not sure if he does but if he wants to he can and so can I. We want to ensure that people in Newry can come down and shop in our local towns close to the Border. That is important. People can go to school. They can work. I raised these issues last week the British Minister, Nick Thomas-Symonds. I had a very interesting conversation with him to ensure we protect the common travel area and avoid any flies in the ointment.

What about the issue with the Brit card?

I raised it with him. We were very clear. In fairness, I think he was quite understanding of the nuances. It is fair to say that he understood the position that under the Good Friday Agreement, people are entitled to be British, Irish or both. I was very strong on that point, the Deputy will be glad to hear.

For the migration pact, the common travel area presents its own complications. The Minister for Justice, Deputy O'Callaghan, is navigating them. He will have a lot of work on his plate during the presidency of the Justice and Home Affairs Council in terms of navigating the EU stuff at that time and also navigating our own position with Britain. That is important and we are just going to have to do it. We are entitled to protect our own borders.

I think that is probably everything.

I thank the Minister of State. He has been very-----

The Minister of State said-----

We more or less started with Deputy Ó Murchú so we are more or less going to finish with him.

I asked about legislation and issues around databases because we are not in the Schengen area. Has there been any-----

We are not in Schengen, and will not be.

I am not proposing that we would be either.

That is being worked on, as I understand it, by the Department of justice.

On behalf of the committee, I thank the Minister of State for his engagement with the committee today. It has been very helpful. We appreciate all the work he is doing at an extremely busy time for him. Go n-éirí leat.

Next week, the committee will be engaging with Commissioner McGrath, as we have discussed. I again thank the Minister of State and his whole delegation. We appreciate their work.