I welcome everybody to this meeting of the Joint Committee on European Union Affairs and the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade. We have received apologies from Senator Higgins and Deputy Ó Fearghaíl.

I advise members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement, and therefore a member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any member partaking via Microsoft Teams that prior to making their contribution to the meeting, they confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. Before welcoming our witnesses, I welcome the Chair of the Oireachtas Committee on European Union Affairs, Deputy Barry Ward, and members of the combined committees. The witnesses who have been here before will know Tuesday is a busy day. Members will be coming in and out. There is other business going on in the Dáil Chamber, the Seanad Chamber and other committee rooms.

I welcome our witnesses to this joint meeting of the Joint Committee on European Union Affairs and the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade to discuss the Global Sumud Flotilla. As members are aware, earlier this year, the flotilla sought to deliver aid to the population of Gaza, responding to the dire starvation and famine taking place there. The flotilla departed in August and September of this year from a number of locations, including Barcelona, Genoa, Tunis and Catania, to comprise a fleet of almost 50 vessels carrying participants from approximately 40 countries. In early October, these vessels were intercepted by Israeli forces in international waters and all occupants were detained, including a number of Irish nationals, all of whom have since been released.

The purpose of today's meeting is to engage with some of those members of the flotilla and hear their experiences. The format of the meeting is that we will hear their opening statements, which will be followed by a questions and answers session with the members of the committee. Each of the witnesses have three minutes in which to make their opening remarks. I ask my colleagues to be concise in their questions to allow all members the opportunity to participate.

I now pass the floor over to Ms Moynihan, who is going to make her opening statement.

I am one of the heads of the Irish delegation of the Global Movement to Gaza and I sat on the global steering committee for organising the past two missions: the Global Sumud Flotilla and the march to Gaza in Egypt.

I am here today to very briefly talk about the Global Movement to Gaza and to try to show why ordinary people - grandparents, nurses, mothers, artists, mechanics, politicians, teachers, solicitors and shopkeepers - from Ireland and around the world are willing to put themselves at such risk to their own safety, knowing there is even a risk of death.

With more than two years of children, women and men being slaughtered, starved and displaced by the genocide inflicted by Israel, the citizens of Ireland cannot bear to watch and be complicit for a moment longer. The vast majority of people in Ireland do not want to be complicit for a second longer and want to make sure that the people of Palestine know that we are doing everything we can as part of this growing global movement, the biggest the world has ever seen, to break the siege, open a humanitarian corridor, stop the genocide and stand strong for the liberation of Palestine.

Through conversations, debates and emails, this Government and the previous Government have denied complicity in this genocide and have been irate when it has been put to them. Yet, right now, there is a little girl skipping down a demolished road in Gaza. She will be hit by a bomb or shot in the leg by a sniper and her leg will be blown to smithereens. Israel might be the one that aimed the weapon and the US or another country might be the one that paid for it, but if that weapon or parts for it, in their navigation, have landed in Shannon Airport or flown through Irish airspace, then Ireland is equally as culpable in why that little girl has had her leg blown off.

The United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East, UNRWA, has stated that there are more than 10,000 child amputees with life-altering injuries in Gaza. This is more than has ever been seen in modern history. To help us visualise that, the Gaza Strip is less this than one third of the size of Leitrim. There are currently 10,000 children who have had limbs blown off, and we know that some of those weapons, or parts of those weapons, have flown through Irish airspace. Ireland is complicit.

Our Taoiseach and Tánaiste have both regularly called what is happening in Palestine genocide, yet have taken zero actual action to stop it. The Palestinian movement in Ireland has been calling on our Government for the past two years to cut economic ties with Israel, a country we are openly stating is committing genocide yet we have huge economic ties to it. We ask it to enact the occupied territories Bill, including for goods and services. We have been calling for a very basic Bill to be passed for eight years. We know that, internationally, it is recognised that Israel is illegally occupying Palestinian land. Of all countries, Ireland should know better than that.

I have to stop Ms Moynihan there because our time is restricted and we have a number of witnesses, all of whom have equal time to contribute. We were hoping to hear the witnesses' experiences of the flotilla. I call the next speaker, Ms Sarah Clancy, to make her opening statement.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Cathaoireach, Teachtaí Dála agus Seanadóirí. Between 29 August and 7 October 2025, I participated in the Global Sumud Flotilla. Our flotilla and all of us on it were part of a non-violent action, independent of all governments, and we always acted legally and in full compliance with all relevant laws. In fact, we were trying to fulfil our individual responsibilities as ordinary people to act to prevent genocide. The Irish State, as a signatory to the Genocide Convention, is similarly bound to act but to date has not done so.

During my participation in the Global Sumud Flotilla, my comrades and I were subjected to dangerous drone attacks on our boats in international waters and foreign ports, threats of lengthy prison sentences, threats of bombing and to damaging allegations that we were involved in or were supporters of armed groups. We were prevented from going about our lawful business by the Israeli naval service and our boats were boarded with armed force. We were detained illegally on board and transported more than 15 hours away from the international waters we were sailing in. Our boats, aid and possessions were stolen.

We were held in stress positions and subjected to violent handling. We were strip-searched, denied all contact with the outside world and denied food, water, medication and access to bathrooms for extended periods. We were then imprisoned illegally and against our will in the infamous Israeli-run Kzti’ot Prison in the Negev Desert. During our time there, we experienced cruel and degrading treatment up to and including physical violence and widespread and various denials of our human rights, including the denial of drinking water and essential medications. We were menaced and threatened regularly, including by heavily armed tactical units of up to eight personnel at a time who entered our cells equipped with automatic weapons, pistols, riot shields, blinding LED lights and Alsatian dogs.

There was no legal basis at all for Israeli forces - the navy, the army or the prison service - having any engagement or contact with our flotilla or the people sailing on it. Each action against us was a belligerent and illegal act by a foreign government against Irish citizens. These acts against us were carried out with the full knowledge of the most senior people in the Israeli Government, the Israel Defense Forces, IDF, and the Israel Prison Service, some of whom even visited us to take selfies of themselves treating us in this fashion.

We want every available action to be taken against Israel for our treatment. We want this not for ourselves. We want it as a strike against the ever-widening impunity with which Israel is being allowed to act. We want action taken in solidarity with and on behalf of the thousands of Palestinian prisoners, many of them children and teenagers, who are interned in those same prisons without ever having been charged with any crimes. I do not know how plainly I can put it but we saw their blood on the walls. I do not mean that metaphorically. There was actual blood on the walls.

I thank Ms Clancy.

I have just one more point.

Very briefly.

Early one morning in Kzti’ot, I heard the most anguished human screams I have ever heard travel across the air from somewhere in the distance in the prison compound. On behalf of whoever person that was, I am calling on all members of the committee to make sure that where we have any power at all to do so, Israel is held fully accountable.

I thank Ms Clancy. I reassure speakers that they will have an opportunity to contribute again when we have questions. Time flies really quickly here and I want to alert them to that. I call Ms Leigh Brosnan to make her statement.

I was present on the independent legal support boat that accompanied and travelled with the Global Sumud Flotilla for the month of September as it carried out its mission.

The matters of fact that have been set out and established are that this mission was inherently non-violent and humanitarian, comprising citizens from across the world. As has been noted, the flotilla participants were in international waters when they were intercepted and arrested. I want to track four categories of increasingly escalatory infringements on the citizens aboard the flotilla, as they completed their mission. There were drone attacks in Tunisia and attacks 30 nautical miles south of the Greek island of Gavdos. There was an interception roughly 60 nautical miles from the coast of Gaza and the forcible transfer of these unarmed civilians against their will to Israeli territory. There were the arbitrary detentions that flowed from these illegal arrests and the mistreatment that these abductees experienced while detained.

First, I wish to highlight that the Irish Government was on notice that these citizens would be abused and detained against international law. On 31 August this year, Israeli security minister, Itamar Ben-Gvir, clearly and unequivocally stated that he would treat the flotilla participants as terrorists and detain them in high-security prisons, denying them basic provisions. Israel has ratified the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, for example, and those statements putting on notice the respective jurisdictions and heads of state from across the world that it intended to breach these basic civil and prisoners' rights was the first major red flag in a series of warnings explicitly stated by the Israel Defense Forces, members of the executive and members of the Knesset.

On 8 and 9 September, there were attacks off the coast of Tunisia and incendiary devices were dropped on two vessels, endangering the lives of those on board. On 16 September, not only did the UN Human Rights Council make another unambiguous statement about the genocidal acts in Gaza, but also the Tánaiste, Deputy Simon Harris, co-signed a public statement with 15 other nation states clearly stating that there would be accountability for any breaches of international law against the flotilla participants.

Two days later, there was another set of attacks on the flotilla. Incendiary devices and chemical weapons were used. On 25 September, military frigates were deployed from Spain, Italy and Turkey. They ceased to accompany the flotilla several days later. As we know, on 1 and 2 October the entire flotilla was unlawfully intercepted and the participants were arrested and imprisoned.

I am going to have to stop Ms Brosnan there. I thank her and call Ms Schwarz.

Good afternoon. I was a participant on the Global Sumud Flotilla from Tunis. Although I had taken part in marches and demonstrations, I was not previously an activist. I joined the flotilla as an ordinary citizen because it was a non-violent, civilian-led humanitarian aid mission to create a corridor by sea. There were people approximately 500 people from almost every continent involved, including activists, journalists, medical workers, sailors, government officials and, like me, ordinary citizens, who felt it was the least we could do in the circumstances. Prior to this, I had watched atrocity after atrocity unfold on screen before my eyes. That remains unacceptable. As the death toll rose, the number of blockades increased and more of Gaza was obliterated, I waited for the international community to respond to hold those responsible accountable. There were noises about an arrest warrant for Netanyahu, scholars and experts stated that there was genocide happening, and Palestine was recognised as a state by other countries. At that point, I thought that the people in Palestine would be safe.

Despite all I have outlined, our occupied territories Bill has yet to be passed. The more traction the flotilla got, the more serious the threats and accusations became - from "selfie-boats" to Hamas saying we would be treated as terrorists if we continued. Under international law, we were not doing anything illegal. We were carrying baby formula, food and medical aid, nothing that would constitute any kind of threat to anyone. Before departure, our boats were the target of drone strikes while still in Tunisian waters. Later, in international waters near Crete, drones dropped multiple incendiary and gas devices on the boats. Some damage occurred but repairs were possible.

On 1 October, the flotilla was intercepted in international waters by naval forces using water cannons. The boat I was on, Amsterdam, was boarded by armed personnel on 2 October at roughly 5.20 a.m.. We were searched, restrained, and transported to Ashdod Port. On arrival there, we were processed through immigration. During this process, we were subjected to invasive searches, biometric scans and interrogation without legal representation. Personal belongings, including passports, were confiscated and we were subjected to rough handling and humiliation. Ben-Gvir recorded participants restrained with zip ties and called them terrorists and baby killers. We were transported to Ktziot Prison in the Negev Desert where we faced overcrowded cages and cells and sleep deprivation through repeated night disturbances by armed guards. There was denial of clean water, food was delayed and people were subjected to psychological abuse. People were also forced to view propaganda videos, there was a lack of medical care and basic necessities and intimidation tactics were used, including the presence of armed squads and muzzled dogs. The violations that we experienced included the denial of legal rights, inhumane treatment, communal punishment, religious discrimination, including hijabs being removed, and psychological abuse.

After several days of harsh conditions, we were moved to Eilat airport-----

I am sorry, but I have to interrupt. We will tease out some of the details later. Mr. Mac Dubhghlais did not get an opportunity to make a submission. Would he like to make some opening remarks?

I submitted a submission, so it is there somewhere. I joined the Global Sumud Flotilla because I have a past history. I have been to Palestine several times and have seen over the years the increasing degradation and harsh treatment of the Palestinian people. The boat I was initially on, the Familia Madeira, was the first vessel to be attacked in Tunis by drones. The impact of the drone attacks, particularly those in Tunis, could have been worse. They could have caused serious injuries to those on board the boats that were hit.

I could talk for hours about all the actions that took place, but it is easier to summarise what happened. We were hijacked in international waters by armed Zionist forces. We were kidnapped and held at gunpoint by those same armed forces, which were heavily armed, and taken against our will to a holding centre in Ashdod. We were forced to sit or kneel in prone positions for hours awaiting processing. We were systematically stripped of any emblems of nationality - flags or whatever - and any open signs of support for Palestine, such as T-shirts with logos, etc. Intimidation and coercion tactics were used to try to force us to sign documents admitting that we had entered Israel illegally. When we were transported to jail, we were paraded in front of camera for Ben-Gvir to make a PR clip for his home team.

In the jail, I was in a cell with 16 other people. We were forced to sleep in a cell that had only eight beds and one toilet. We were denied any outside exercise for the duration of our incarceration. The only water available to us was - it was of dubious quality - was from a single tap in the toilet. We were denied any legal representation when brought before a person who purported to be a judge. One meeting with the Irish ambassador was held outdoors in the blazing hot Negev Desert. Even he was stripped of his jacket, phone and water. All he had was a pen and a piece of paper. All medications were confiscated from every individual and held. They were only given when an emergency situation had been arrived at. Detainees were routinely threatened, sometimes at gunpoint, and some were physically assaulted.

When finally deported, there were 17 of us held in a prison van from 5.30 a.m. to 1.30 p.m. The space provided for us in this van was approximately 7 ft by 10 ft by 10 ft. This was again in the Negev Desert. For the full duration, we were denied food, water or toilets. During our trip across the Mediterranean, channel 16, the emergency channel, was routinely blocked - we can only assume by the Israelis. This could have had very negative knock-on effect because, as well all know, migrants transport themselves across the Mediterranean. Had a call been put out, it would not have gone anywhere. All my personal property except my passport was stolen. I had seen it in front of me and I asked for it as I was leaving the boat. It was denied to me. While on the quay wall, female members and our darker-skinned brothers and sisters of the Muslim faith were treated much more harshly than I was as a white-skinned European. I heard at first hand people asked if they were Muslim or Christian. That was what was going on there.

I thank Mac Dubhghlais. I know it can be frustrating that the witnesses did not get to say everything, but I hope over the course of the afternoon they will. We will start with questions. At meetings of the foreign affairs committee, members just indicate that they want to ask questions. There are five minutes for members and that should include answers. The clock will up on the screen. Members will be able to keep an eye on it. I call Deputy Ó Murchú.

If we could straight into the treatment of the witnesses, we can accept that the Israelis have been involved in a genocide. I do not think any of the witnesses were shocked that the Israelis had no bother breaching all rules and laws. Will the they detail their interactions with Ben-Gvir? I am sure those interactions are worthy of comment.

I was probably one of the first 40 or 50 to be brought to the jail. Ben-Gvir came in. We were in a holding cell. He noted that we were there and made a few comments to his own people. Then he got the camera crew in and called us baby killers, murders and terrorists. Most of the people on the flotilla are not wallflowers. We were able to answer him back and throw it straight back at him, namely that he is the baby killer and the murderer. Even in his own country-----

I know it is frustrating - I need to remind Mr. Mac Dubhghlais of the rules I read out.

Ben-Gvir is not here to defend himself.

He is not here to defend himself.

I cannot say that I was overly offended on this behalf.

These are the protocols, and they apply to everyone.

Right.

I will leave it at that then because I would only go on a rant.

Mr. Mac Dubhghlais can describe what happened without identifying.

Okay. He did follow one of the other detainees into where he was being strip-searched. Again, he threw the same abuse at this gentleman and filmed him while he was being strip-searched. In general, it was abuse from Ben-Gvir for his home team.

Okay, so-----

He did say it, and he recorded himself doing it.

Yes, but we have protocols here. I am sorry.

We will move on. We get the idea. It was not a great interaction. Mr. Mac Dubhghlais also spoke about how the flotilla was boarded illegally, how people were, basically kidnapped and what happened after that. Will he comment on the pressure put on people to sign statements?

We were encouraged, we will say, or they tried to coerce us into signing a document. I forgot to bring the document with me. I do have a copy because I stole one. It indicated that we had entered the state illegally. We were told that if we signed it, we would assuredly be gone from the Israeli state within three days. We were also informed that if we did not sign, we would be kept for seven days or however long they deemed necessary.

Yes, and that was the absolute threat. What about the conditions in which people were kept for the period? Any of the other witnesses can comment on the food and the accommodation, or lack thereof.

During the time I was there, I was kept in cell. The cells were like you would see in a spaghetti western, with a door in the front and one at the back. There was nothing in them at all but a toilet cubicle. There was filthy water. It was undrinkable really. We were never provided drinking water at all. They said the water was drinkable, but I guarantee members that they would not choose to drink it. We were 15 people in that cell. At the maximum, there were 16 in it. The minimum number in the cell was 11. There were five bunk beds in the cell. For most of the time we were there, we had no access to mattresses, blankets or anything like that. There was a concrete floor. As Mr. Mac Dubhghlais said, we were all well able to speak up for ourselves, so we agitated to an extent and managed to get some sleeping equipment. All the equipment we needed was at the top of the aisle, but they just would not give it to us. Within 100 m of us were toothbrushes, small towels, soap and all the things we needed. They just would not give them to us. I was one of the first five who arrived. We were all given little bags, but the people who followed us were not. In those bags were toothbrushes, knickers or whatever.

It is worth saying that it appeared that an attempt was made to make a list of the food they gave us, but without us being able to eat the food. What I will say about that is we had vegetables that were not cooked, just roughly cut up. We had no utensils, plates or trays, so they handed the vegetables through a letterbox to us in the cell. To give an example, on the final day, which we did not know at the time was the final day, for some reason they started giving us loads of food, all of which did not match. One day we got kind of bread and jam and on another we got vegetables. On the last day, we got eggs and chicken escalops, but these came through onto the floor of the cell through the letterbox. There was no method by which someone could have a meal.

Technically, they had given the witnesses food.

Technically, they could have given us a list of the food they had given us. We had no drinkable water. Some of us ate some parts of the food and some of us did not. A lot of people were quite afraid to eat the food because of what might have been done to it, given everything else that was happening. As well as that, it was very hot. It was extremely hot. There was no means of staying cool and there was also an attempt to keep us awake all the time. If people are familiar with some of the techniques used, we have looked at them over the years, techniques from Guantanamo and techniques used on the Birmingham Six whereby they would wake you up over and over again at night-time by using dogs, armed guards and bright lights. Usually, those are techniques by means of which you will be disoriented for an interrogation but the vast majority of us were not interrogated about anything. I was not asked any questions whatsoever while I was there.

I thank Ms Clancy.

Can I just add one important point? There were people denied necessary medication from the moment they arrived. It is really important to mention that. They had their own medication, so it was available, but they were never given any of it.

Where was the medication?

Some of them had it on their person because everybody was told that if they had vital medication, they needed to keep it alongside their passport. The medication was taken and was not administered thereafter. When people asked for it, it was not given to them.

I thank the witnesses for taking the time to come join us and for their well-thought-through opening statements that give a very clear picture. I spent the morning reading through the statements. They tell a very clear tale as to the ordeal the witnesses have been through. Clearly the witnesses set out with the very noble aim of delivering aid and that is not ultimately what transpired. The witnesses likely would have been given warnings or would have been able to reference the experience of prior flotillas as to what might happen. How did what actually happened to the witnesses stack up against their expectations of what was likely to happen?

I will just add a quick point and then let somebody else take that question. I was one of the organisers of the Global Sumud Flotilla, but I did not actually go on it. The main aim was to open a humanitarian corridor. The aid that was on the boats was quite minimal. It was important, but the purpose was to show that aid could get through. The most important part, which is still the most important part for the missions that are coming - there is another ground action and another flotilla being planned at the moment - is to open a humanitarian corridor. The other point, which I think has come up twice now, is that people were aware of what might happen but we need to be really mindful to not normalise this. Just because we know how absolutely atrocious the Israeli state is does not mean it is okay that we think this is going to happen before we set sail. Israel has no right to do this, nor had it such a right previously. I will let somebody else come in.

That was a very comprehensive and fair answer. I think the flotilla was initially boarded 60-odd km out. However, it was escorted to within 150 km by an Italian vessel. They may, perhaps, have also been a Spanish vessel involved. The Italian vessel announced that it would be leaving at the 150 km mark. What was the reason for it doing that? Why would it not go any further?

There was also a Turkish vessel with us. While we were in Greek waters, a Greek naval vessel was with us. Naval vessels from four countries accompanied us at various stages. Most of us on the flotillas have no direct channel to the Meloni Government about why it would act in a certain way. It was not calling us. The Italian members of the flotilla came under enormous pressure from the Italian Government to the effect that they should have gone back and should not have continued. There were lots of kind of wilful misunderstandings of what it was we were doing. The Italian Government was sending messages to say that, for example, we should just give our aid to the Israelis, who were the same people who were preventing the access of urgently needed goods to the extent there was a famine in Gaza. There were a lot of ludicrous statements being made in that regard. I am surmising, but I think they pulled back because the Italian Government wished to recognise the illegal exclusion zone which Israel maintains in waters that have nothing to do with it.

Ms Clancy also mentioned a Turkish vessel. Was the position with that the same?

And the Spanish one as well.

None of them provided a very clear rationale. They just stated publicly that they would cease accompanying the flotilla.

It was not for the direct protection of the boats either. The Spanish fleet had stated that if people were in distress in the water, it would come to their aid but that the vessel was not there to provide actual protection from the IDF.

Understood. In one of the witnesses' written statements - I apologise as I cannot remember whose it was - there is mention of a mechanism whereby an Irish Army officer could and should have attended.

This is an exemption. I heard it bandied around that there was no capacity or competence in the Government and the Executive to provide an accompanying force of the Irish Defence Forces. However, section 3 of the Defence (Amendment) Act 2006 specifically lays out a set of categories of circumstances in which a defence naval vessel can be dispatched and one is undertaking humanitarian tasks, specifically. That is section 3(f) of that statute. Therefore, there were courses of action that could have been taken.

I suspect it is unrealistic at best, but reckless at worst, to assume that Israel will comport itself with any respect for human rights and the rule of law. As the Government was effectively on notice that these rights would be infringed because of previous fatalities - on the Mavi Marmara in the flotilla mission in 2010 there were nine fatalities - the risks were extremely high and extremely plausible. There were very good grounds for believing serious harm would be done to Irish citizens and that escalated the duty of care from a legal standpoint.

Can I add one quick point? Through the organising of the GSF - there were countries from all over the world and a number of different partners came together - this came up a lot in conversation. Following on from Ms Brosnan's point, it was also thought about quite strongly why these particular citizens should be looked after by our naval army when citizens of Palestine were literally being left by governments all over the world to be murdered, slaughtered and starved in a genocide. Why would we still not be offering this support to the people of Palestine directly? We should be able to open a humanitarian corridor with what is available to us.

I am not an apologist, but to give the line the Taoiseach gave, the triple lock prevented the Irish Government from dispatching. That is the Government's position. Deputy Seán Crowe-----

I would like to respond to that. That might be the Government's position, but Ms Brosnan might be able to-----

If someone asks the question, she can. I call Deputy Seán Crowe and then Senator Andrews.

I thank the Comhchathaoirleach. I asked to speak early as I have to go to a removal of a friend and colleague so I apologise that I cannot stay longer. I was supportive of the idea of holding this meeting.

I have a few simple questions. I will start with the Irish navy vessel. Some of the requests were made in the Dáil 24 hours before. Unfortunately, the length of time it would take to get an Irish naval vessel to that zone would possibly be a number of weeks. It would have had to fuel up and so on. I am not making excuses, but some of those in the Dáil making calls were probably thinking of going on a flight within a few hours. An Irish navy vessel takes a lot longer. That is not to justify or make any point.

The Global Sumud Flotilla faced challenges with the Spanish, Greeks and Italians. Clearly no one was prepared. Officially the rule is 12 miles outside a particular zone. Do the witnesses have any idea where in international waters they were? Do they have a pin drop for where exactly in the water they were? There have been charges that it was piracy in international waters. We are not aware of this anywhere else in the world. Perhaps it has happened in Somalia, where there is a clan system or tribes, but no state actors have been involved in something like this, except what we have seen before with the Israeli Government.

I do not know whether the witnesses will be able to answer this question. Perhaps the lawyers who were observing will. What happens next? At an international level, whose role is it to make a decision? What court would it be brought before, if a case were to be taken against the Israeli navy and the IDF who boarded these boats? Where is the court of justice that would try it and how would the process happen? Would it have to be taken by a government? Could the witnesses as individuals take that case? Could someone take it on their behalf?

There is a comprehensive legal team working together who have been partially supporting the flotilla mission from the land and the sea. We are also corresponding with the international legal teams that have been thinking about and wrestling with these issues prior to and during the mission and post facto.

Multiple avenues are open to the citizens who have been egregiously wronged and had their human rights violated. There is an international maritime tribunal that presides over the enforcement of the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea. Article 19 of that convention states there is a right to innocent passage through international waters. That right was violated in this context. As the Deputy stated, there was no power, up to 12 nautical miles off the coast, for any interception of any vessels. That in itself is one avenue or forum where we are exploring litigation.

There are also potential avenues in a European context in the Court of Justice of the European Union or the European Court of Human Rights, in circumstances where citizens have had a spectrum of wrongs effected against them, from civil wrongs, including loss and damage of property and trespass to the person, as well as criminal wrongs.

In this jurisdiction today, five citizens who were abducted submitted complaints to An Garda Síochána and they have cited two statutes which give An Garda Síochána the capacity to investigate wrongs committed extra-territorially, in this case in international waters. One is the Criminal Justice (United Nations Convention against Torture) Act 2000 and the second is the International Criminal Court Act 2006. Both of those statutes empower An Garda Síochána to investigate crimes committed beyond the jurisdiction of the State. We are investigating multiple avenues and are confident that there is at least one forum in which citizens will be able to seek accountability for wrongs.

I have come to the end of my time, but it would be useful for both committees if there were - at one stage there was talk of this - international observers who were not arrested to observe the arrests and hijacking of the flotilla. It would be useful if there were independent evidence the witnesses could submit to us.

The Comhchathaoirleach might bear with me. The drone attacks happened in Tunisian waters. Is it the Tunisian authorities who must look into this or can it be investigated by outside elements for possible cases?

I will come back to the previous point on the length of time it would have taken an Irish Defence Forces vessel to arrive. That is why I pointed out this was being warned about for weeks prior to the unlawful arrests, as early as 31 August. Similarly, the drone attacks the Deputy referred to on 8 and 9 September took place two weeks prior to the unlawful interceptions, so there was time. Second, in response to the idea that the triple lock would prevent Irish Defence Forces from sending a vessel, that is not the case under section 3 of the Defence (Amendment) Act 2006.

Not discounting the drone attack that happened in Tunisia, a drone attack also took place in EU waters off the coast of Crete, which included an attack on the boat Senator Andrews and I were on. It is not something that happened far away, particularly given that we are speaking to the Committee on European Affairs. That happened.

I will put something on the record that has not been mentioned before. We spoke about the naval ships. Following the second drone attack that happened off the island of Crete, we were accompanied by what we believe were three Turkish armed drones from then on.

That is the only reason, we believe, our boats were not subject to further attacks. Before that happened, most of us travelling on the flotilla were operating under the assumption there was a likelihood one of our boats would be bombed or sunk. We had had two drone attacks, both of which could have caused risk to life, particularly the one in Tunisia. It was just luck that it did not. The second one damaged loads of vessels and appeared to be an attempt to damage the sails of the sailboats in that vessel. We are not party to the discussions that took place but there was loads of drone activity over us all the time and there were three drones that accompanied us right up to a few hours before the point of interception. Other than that, we would probably have come under repeated drone attacks as we continued.

The boats that came under drone attack in Tunisia were sailing under European flags.

Ours was a Polish-flagged vessel.

Will Ms Brosnan expand on the claim that, because of the triple lock, the Government could not intervene? For a long time, the Government said it could not do anything and intervention was not possible. Was putting an observer on the Spanish boat, for example, something that could have happened?

Ms Clancy mentioned the Government said it wanted to ensure the safety and well-being of all those detained. Has anybody from the Government been in touch with any of the witnesses since the flotilla? Ms Clancy also mentioned trade with Israel. What are her concerns about trade with Israel and the EU-Israel Association Agreement?

Ms Moynihan mentioned restrictions on medicines. Paddy Kelly is a diabetic and they refused to give him his medicines for three days. What is the health situation with everybody following that?

I will speak briefly on the capacity of the Government to send an accompanying boat. I will cite the statute directly. Based on my reading of the law and applying the facts of the flotilla to this law, it was within the capacity of the Government to send an accompanying boat. Pursuant to section 3(1) of the Act, "A contingent or member of the Permanent Defence Force may, with the prior approval of and on the authority of the Government, be despatched for service outside the State". Then it has a list of categories, one of which is humanitarian assistance. This is completely separate to the triple lock. Any reliance on the triple lock would obfuscate what is, by my reading, a statutory power. There is no limit on it. It is not delimited or restricted. It is a clear stand-alone statutory power. Therefore, that avenue was available to the Government.

I was in the Dáil on a number of occasions when that came up. I am Chair here and I am Chair of a committee that passed the Bill including services, so we have a record on this. However, in the interests of balance, the Government would clearly take a different view on that. I will just put that on the record.

Can I ask what Bill the Comhchathaoirleach is referring to?

Sorry, I mean the report into the occupied territories Bill. The foreign affairs end of this committee has a strong record on this piece.

This committee has recommended the passing of the occupied territories Bill, including services. Is that correct?

It is not called the occupied territories Bill now, but that is on record, yes.

Perfect. To the best of our knowledge, the Irish Government has on multiple occasions sent naval vessels to assist with rescuing migrants in the Mediterranean very close to where we were. I do not think there was any UN mandate involved in that circumstance. It would be worth investigating the basis on which those ships with much more than 12 personnel were sent.

With regard to Chris's - Senator Andrews's - question - bear in mind I was on a boat with him for nearly a month, so forgive the informality.

That was punishment enough.

On the question of trade, it will come as no surprise to anybody here that there is an obligation on an individual to act if it is within their capacity to prevent a genocide. There is the same obligation on a State. I am extremely concerned that Ireland's trade with Israel has been increasing on a variety of fronts while this genocide has been happening. In 2024, Ireland was Israel's second-biggest trading partner. We had trade valued at €3.26 billion with Israel. We understand the trade model but that will end up being seen as supportive of what is, undoubtedly, one of the most serious crimes against humanity we have had the misfortune to witness.

I am not here to make speeches but every person here, particularly those with responsibility for trade, should not underestimate this. It is not an act of virtue for Ireland to stand in solidarity with Palestine. We are complicit, particularly through our trade, airports, dual-use goods and overflights. To everybody with responsibility, I say to take that responsibility as seriously as possible and to act. It may take some time but it is really likely we will see these matters in the International Criminal Court. I will be doing my best to make sure that is what happens and I know millions of people across Ireland agree with me. I put members under advisement. It is not an act of a tiny country acting in solidarity. We are a key link for Israel's trade with all of Europe. That is what I would like this committee to think about.

It was interesting that an Teachta Seán Crowe asked where we might hold Israel accountable. We came here today to tell committee members it is their job to hold Israel accountable. We have done as much as private citizens can. We have gone as far as we can. Most of us will probably do so again. That is what we ask members to do as well. Do not leave a stone unturned.

There is a genocide happening. That is as simply as I can put it. Even though there is a so-called ceasefire declared, everything people in Gaza need in the emergency situation they are in could be with them within three days, but access is being prevented. Gaza is 20-odd kilometres long. Everything is still waiting outside. Shelter and emergency rations for all the people in Gaza could be there by Friday. We are not seeing that happening and that is because countries like ours are not acting. Countries are allowing the State of Israel to kidnap private citizens, threaten us and put us in danger and, previously, to murder us. We are here to say we do not want that to happen and the people of Ireland do not want it to happen. We want members to do everything in their power and whatever they can think of. If they want us to help using whatever knowledge we have, we are here to help because that is what we want to happen.

It has been a very interesting meeting. I read the testimonials over the past few days. To think people could be treated in such a way in this day and age is absolutely unbelievable. We see what is happening in Israel and what the Government is prepared to do. It has no mercy whatsoever on the people of Gaza. The way the witnesses were treated as non-citizens of Gaza, with up to 11 or 14 imprisoned in small cells, is outrageous.

In relation to the drones, they were Israeli drones, I imagine, or were they coming from a different country? Where were they coming from? Was anybody injured or hurt by drones landing on the boats? Did they do much damage to the boats? People had medication withheld, including somebody with diabetes who needs that medication to survive.

I hope that person is okay now. I hope they are good. What I have read over the last few days has certainly opened my eyes as to what happened, to be honest. I will leave it at that for the moment.

Following on from Senator Andrews's point and the Deputy's point on medication, this is just one person, but many people were denied their really necessary medication. Paddy Kelly, who would absolutely hate to be named here, is a 75-year-old man with serious diabetes, and he was denied his medication until he was in Athens, but that was organised through other people as well. That could have been very serious. He also had a really serious injury to his leg and he ended up in hospital. He is doing all right now but that was quite a serious injury. It occurred when he was being moved from one boat to another.

Israel has shown no mercy and that is because it has been given complete impunity by this Government and so many others. I know it is been mentioned but it has been proven over and over again that weapons are flowing through Shannon Airport or through Irish airspace. It has been proven that they are going there. They are part of the reason people are being slaughtered in Gaza right now. For decades, people in Ireland have been calling for the US to stop being able to use Shannon Airport and for arms to stop flowing through Irish airspace. Until we actually really stand up to make real changes, whether it is on trade, access through Shannon Airport, or the trade agreements, then we are completely complicit in all of these children and women and men being slaughtered, murdered and starved every single day. We are here hoping that we can persuade this Government to take any meaningful action.

Many other people here today were on the boats as well. The families came in a number of days before to meet the Government before the kidnapping happened. We asked for a meaningful statement to be put out stating what the Irish Government would do if these people were kidnapped and absolutely nothing happened then and nothing has happened since. The question I would ask is, if another country kidnapped 21 Irish citizens, what would we have done? I do not think we would have just sat by and done absolutely nothing.

It seems to fall to me to be devil's advocate so I have a few questions to ask. I am not actually playing the devil's advocate role, because I have a few serious questions to ask about the treatment. The committee meets representatives of the Palestinian Authority in formal sessions and informal ones and we meet representatives of the Palestinian presence in Ireland. They describe the response of the Irish Government, not just the Irish people, as exemplary and as a model, and that the Irish Government, not just the Irish people, has led internationally, and at European level in relation to governmental responses to what has happened in Gaza. It is important to put that on the record, and that it is not me saying it but it is on the record from people who represent Palestinians in Ireland and internationally. We had a trade delegation here earlier in the year. You mentioned the Irish Government and they said the Irish Government is their number one champion. It is important to put that on the record here. That is not to dilute the discussion.

One of the things I want to follow up on is in relation to what Senator Andrews asked about feedback or further response from the Department of foreign affairs about the treatment of people in the flotilla. If there has not been any feedback from the Department of foreign affairs, then as Chair of the committee, I am quite happy to put it to the members when we have a private meeting that we would write to the Minister for foreign affairs in relation to that. It is open to us to follow up by way of parliamentary questions, which I am offering to do. If you want to help us phrase those, then I am very happy to do that.

On intimidation, Mr. Mac Dubhghlais mentioned communal punishment, and I do not know if he used the word "torture" but he did use the word "psychological". Will he talk to us about his experience and the three elements: psychological, intimidatory and the communal punishment. Whoever wants to can come in on this.

We had been well advised before we were kidnapped that this document would be there for us and those who wanted to go home early, if they signed the document, would be released within the three days. Failing that, it would normally take seven days, but Ben-Gvir made many a public statement, as did many other Israeli politicians, to the fact that they wanted a purpose-built prison for us and keep us. When we went in-----

What was that like to hear?

If I am honest, I went on this trip with no illusions as to what might happen. I have been involved with things in Palestine for many years. I was well aware of people being killed and tortured before.

What about for new people, who were there for the first time?

I agree 100%. There were people who went on that trip who came home traumatised, without a shadow of a doubt.

Can you tell us a bit about that?

I will not name names because-----

Please do not.

-----the likes of Paddy Kelly are people who do not want their names out there and that is grand. No, we mentioned him, so that is why I say that. I will not expand on other people's names. Some people probably went with rose-tinted glasses about the idea of bringing food to Gaza. Nobody wants to stop food going to the people of Gaza. They thought everything would be hunky-dory because the international community, the Irish State, etc., was with us. An awful lot of people were shocked to find that, when push came to shove, they were left on one side of the Mediterranean and, literally, everybody ran away. All international groups and all governments ran away. The question was asked about why Spain's and Italy's boats ran away. All I can call it is political cowardice. It is a fear of challenging those who have not been challenged in decades.

The trauma piece?

People went home traumatised. I was under no illusions. I had made my mind up well before we were kidnapped that I would not be signing this document. There was a to and fro between me and the person on the far side the desk. He said that I had come there illegally and I replied that I had not, that I had been kidnapped. He said that I came into Israeli waters, which extend 100 miles from the coast. I replied that international law overruled whatever law he was quoting. There was toing and froing until they sent me on my merry way. I am old enough and ugly enough to fight my own little corner.

Talk to us about the trauma, please, if you can.

People went home. In fairness to my partner, she booked me in to see a psychologist and I went in and had a chit-chat with him. He told me that I might be home for a month, two months or three months before the trauma would knock on my door and I might wake up with cold sweats or whatever. In fairness, yes, there are nights when it is on my mind. I am thinking of going back again, as I am sure many others are, and I am wondering about next time and will they be as "nice" to me as they were this time. I did not get the - excuse my English - shit knocked out of me. I was not tortured but I did see people who were beaten. I am well aware that people got slapped around the place there on the quay wall in front of everybody. There was absolute impunity, nobody gave a damn and these people knew they could do what they did.

Can I add to that? For me, the trauma has been that nothing has changed. Everything we went through, all the work that was put in, we knew what we were up against. Just after the drone strikes, we were told it could get worse. They were not sure and they asked us if we wanted to continue on. We all said we would continue on. I cried for about a day, making my decision. I thought it was going to be worth it because it would create so much media attention that we were going to open up this humanitarian corridor and food and aid would be allowed in, but people are still starving there now. It is winter time, and that nothing has changed is the trauma I have experienced from this trip. We were last week's chip-paper news. That is it; nothing has changed. I appeal to the committee to make some change to help aid get in and make a difference to whoever is left in Gaza, because the population is diminishing as we speak.

Tá sé deas a bheith anseo. Gabhaim buíochas le gach duine as a bheith anseo. I thank everyone for coming in. I thank the committee for inviting Senator Andrews and me. I also thank everyone who has been behind the scenes in organising the meeting, especially all the organisers from the Global Movement to Gaza. I see some colleagues, including Fionn MacArthur from Thousand Madleens. I have just arrived and I will have to run. We are between two committees.

The Irish Government can do more. I support the programme for Government, which includes the occupied territories Bill. When we voted for the amendment, I was told it would be six months. It is now coming up to 12 months. If the Attorney General is going to comment on it, he needs to bring out his advice before there is a vote. This is a genocide. The Geneva Convention was established for a reason. We have a legal obligation to do this. The only time I have ever voted against the Government related to this case. I will continue to do so. I join with Diarmuid Mac Dubhghlais with regard to the abuse. Participants were definitely abused. The perpetrators were a lot harder on participants who are not of the same ethnicity as me. I saw that at first hand. It is very important to put on the record that claims of antisemitism were made against me and the other humanitarian volunteers. There is a huge difference between antisemitism and opposing Zionism. As an elected representative in these Houses, I am obliged to do everything I can to oppose a genocide. There were Israelis involved in the Thousand Madleens organisation and the humanitarian trip. They are amazing people who are dedicated to opposing genocide.

On what more we can do, there is one thing we could easily do, which I have asked for on the record of the House. It relates to resolution 377 A (V), entitled Uniting for Peace. At the moment, the five permanent members of the Security Council can veto peace missions. That has been done 14 times, if I am correct. Uniting for Peace was brought in so that the UN would still have powers in relation to peacekeeping. We can have troops in Gaza if we push. I spoke to the Tánaiste and he said he is looking into this, but we need to call for this clearly and to join with like-minded states across the European Union and worldwide who are pushing for this. UN experts have called for this. Report after report has called for it.

I thank everybody behind the scenes, all the people who are not elected Members but who are working to do the job we should be doing. I thank the committee for organising this meeting and for inviting everybody. That is very important. The Irish Government joining the case before the ICJ was very good but we can do more and, please God, we will. I thank everyone for coming in.

I thank Deputy Heneghan. Would he like to ask any questions?

On the Uniting for Peace resolution, can the committee ask the Government to urge the UN to bring that in as soon as possible? Multiple UN experts have called for it. There is a clear need for it. As other people have said, the ceasefire is a very fragile thing. We need UN troops there. Children are still dying. That is the question. Can the committee do that?

It is also a question for the witnesses. Does anybody want to address that?

I will briefly address it. An awful lot of people are calling for action under Uniting for Peace but a huge portion of the Palestinian community do not want foreign troops in Palestine. They are looking for a way for Palestine to determine its own future. It is incredibly important that we do absolutely everything we can to stop this genocide. To stop this genocide, we need to stop moving arms through Ireland and to stop trading and engaging with a country that is committing genocide. It is all well and good to call it a genocide, but to then act in a completely different way goes against everything we should be doing. There are a lot of positive points in the Uniting for Peace proposal but there is huge resistance to having foreign troops entering Palestine.

On trauma, a huge source of trauma that still impacts a great many people is knowing how many people in Palestine are kidnapped and placed in the prisons that everybody was in. Ms Clancy mentioned this in her statement. Hundreds upon hundreds of children are currently in those prisons. Perhaps others might want to come in on that. It is hugely important to mention because these people have been kidnapped. There are no trials. There is arbitrary detention. Over 10,000 people are currently detained. That weighs heavily on the minds of the people who were there.

I might come in on that quickly but I will go back a little bit. To address the members of the Committee on European Affairs in particular, I struggle to say this in a reasonable fashion but there are human rights clauses in the EU-Israel association agreement and if those clauses do not apply to an actual genocide, when will they apply? While I accept what an Teachta Dála Lahart has said, which is that Ireland is perceived in certain quarters as being a leader, and while we admire that leadership in certain areas, Ireland is nonetheless helping to make a mockery of international human rights law. Being the best in a group of states that are blatantly flouting the international human rights structures, institutions and conventions which we have signed up to is not the kind of leadership we are looking forward. The story has been that we are trying to get other countries in Europe to come along with us but we have gone beyond that point now. Ireland should be saying that, if the EU will not sanction Israel, we will. It is as simple as that. We have sanctioned Russia. We have put sanctions on all sorts of things.

We have not sanctioned Russia, unfortunately. The European Union has. It is important to recognise the distinction.

We have joined in enacting sanctions on Russia. At the same time, we have increased our trade with Israel by multiples during a genocide so nobody should be giving our Government any brownie points on this.

We will come back to that. I call Deputy Cathy Bennett.

I think Ms Brosnan wanted to come in on that last point.

She will have a chance to do so. Do not worry. However, we have to keep to the time provided for each member.

I thank everybody for coming in today. I apologise. I have had to run up to the Chamber twice because I was to speak there. I commend the witnesses on trying to make humanitarian aid available to the people of Palestine. I commend those here and everybody else involved in the flotilla. I will summarise what I believe happened to them during that action. They were assaulted by the military. From listening to speeches and so on, I believe that was an act of piracy. Their vessels were illegally boarded in international waters. As Irish citizens, they were illegally detained and transferred to Israel. I am correct in saying that. They were subject to inhumane conditions during their illegal detainments. From listening to the witnesses earlier, I understand they had no drinking water, no proper food and no proper sanitation and were disturbed during their sleep. As far as I can see, they were terrorised. Their passports, property of the Irish State, were illegally seized and kept by Israel. I would have expected a significant response from the Minister for foreign affairs and the Irish Government. Will the witnesses outline to me what I assume are ongoing engagements with the Minister for foreign affairs with regard to the Irish Government's response to Israel's illegal actions against Irish citizens? Is the Minister for foreign affairs having ongoing engagement with the witnesses?

I can comment on that briefly. Seven volunteer solicitors were supporting the cohort of 16 abductees who were unlawfully detained in Israel. They were consistently writing to the office of an Teachta Dála Simon Harris, as the Tánaiste and then Minister for foreign affairs. They received acknowledgement replies. They also wrote to the ambassadors and received acknowledgement replies. However, only one solicitor could confirm a reply from the Minister's office, in a letter dated 21 October, several weeks after the arrests and detention. The letter was dated 21 October but was only received on 3 November, following the second wave of abductions. There was very little engagement. A meeting of the Dáil was convened while the abductees were detained and there was very strong commentary to the effect that there would be a condemnatory statement issued. I do not believe that statement was issued. I am open to correction if I am wrong. I believe a statement issued but that it was not very condemnatory. It was a slightly more watered-down version of what the abductees were hoping for, which was a vociferous protection of their civil rights.

I echo Ms Clancy's comments on the EU-Israel trade association agreement. I know there have been talks and proposals to suspend the agreement. However, the suspension of the agreement would take away preferential treatment for Israel. It cannot really be seen as a punitive measure. It not really a sanction in any real sense to remove what is a preferential treatment of trade. It is equalising the playing field and that is not actually punitive.

I want to note that, in the Taoiseach's opening address to the UN General Assembly on 26 September, he stated we could not say we did not know what was happening. There is such an abundance of evidence that this genocide is occurring that nobody in their right mind can say we do not know what is happening. On the duty to prevent and punish that is enshrined in the genocide convention, and particularly when we are asking whether there is more that can be done and that we may be seen as No. 1 in the eyes of some Palestinian actors or voices, there is far more involved than the symbolic actions of recognising Palestine as a state and-or joining the ICJ case, which we know will be a very protracted process. It will take a number of years. There have been 352 needless deaths of innocents in Palestine since the enactment of the so-called ceasefire on 10 October. All of these deaths could have been prevented had there been more concrete action.

I believe that, in a public statement on 21 May 2025, the Tánaiste, Deputy Harris, said we must see further sanctions if Israel did not end its military offensive. It has not ended its military offensive, yet we have seen no concrete sanctions. While we can self-congratulate ourselves as being positively perceived perhaps in the international community as defending and upholding the Palestinians' right to self-determination, unless our actions are actually preventing death, providing aid and assisting aid being delivered to Gaza, I say it is not enough.

Particularly in light of the jurisprudence of the International Court of Justice, when it was determining and presiding over cases about the crime of genocide in Bosnia and Herzegovina and Serbia, it was said by the court in that decision that states must employ all means reasonably available to them so as to prevent and punish genocide in so far as possible. A state may be found to have violated its obligation to prevent genocide even though it had no certainty that a genocide was about to be committed or was under way at the time when it should have acted but failed to do so. We are far beyond the realms of hypothetical genocide at this point and all states party to that convention are aware that genocide is well under way.

At this stage, I will ask some questions myself. I agree with Ms Brosnan's statement and there is no doubt in my mind about what is happening and that it constitutes genocide. In the context of the European affairs committee and as I told Senator Andrews already, I wanted to place on the record my thanks and admiration for what he has done. It is important that citizens have the power and the capacity to put down their own marker and to make what stand they can. I admire hugely the risks he took. I have spent quite a bit of time in Gaza over the past 25 years. I have been in Gaza City and Khan Younis. I was there when the IDF flew in sonic bombs, which were breaches of international humanitarian law in and of themselves, and we are talking 20 years ago. They cause miscarriages as well as all of the other damage they do. I have no doubt whatsoever that the activities of the Israeli Defense Forces in the occupied territories generally, and particularly in the Gaza Strip, constitute repeated violations of the most basic human rights that we take for granted in Ireland. The most basic things that I have seen are lorry loads of oranges rotting at the Erez checkpoint because they are not allowed through. From that end of the spectrum to the denial of entry of humanitarian aid now is, to my mind, disgusting on every level. Let me put this on the record straight up. What is happening is appalling.

I do, however, think we need to balance some of the suggestions we have heard today that Ireland can stop it. We cannot. We are a militarily non-aligned country. We cannot in real terms stop it. I am not saying we should not do more - we should - but the question I want to ask is whether there is any recognition from the witnesses that Ireland has been the strongest pro-Palestinian voice in the western world. Would anybody concede this is the case?

I would say the citizens of Ireland have the strongest voice.

Not the Government?

Not the Government, no.

Our leaders were the first western government to call out Israel for its behaviour.

Sticks and stones.

Calling it out and not taking action are two very different things.

The question I asked was-----

I will come back to the Comhchathaoirleach, if I may. For example, why did the Minister for Transport grant an exemption licence for munitions to go to Israel during a genocide?

I am not saying that everything we have done is right. The question I asked was-----

There is everything we did right and then there is assisting with arming a genocide.

I am going to come back to that-----

Just to say-----

The question I asked was whether the witnesses would not acknowledge that Ireland, in terms of the European Union-----

No, I would not.

-----had been the strongest pro-Palestinian-----

Ireland has-----

Which country then has been stronger?

So far, I think-----

That is not exactly the right question to ask.

It is the wrong question.

I am quite sure you do not think it is the right question to ask but it is the question I did ask.

What I am saying is that the Comhchathaoirleach is asking which is the strongest. It is a very low bar.

Fine.

We may say that it is a very low bar.

I have no problem with that.

I do not think anybody at all has taken appropriate action in the European Union to stand against the genocide.

That is not the question I asked.

Part of my statement said the Taoiseach and Tánaiste had called it a genocide many times but they had not acted in any way to take action against the trade agreement.

I do want to come back to this but can anybody answer the question I have asked?

If the Comchathaoirleach is asking the question as to who has spoken out more, then Ireland has absolutely used words, but no actions. If that is what the Comchathaoirleach is asking, then that is what it has done.

For example, the occupied territories Bill has been eight years on the table and seven countries have now passed us out with action. We have spoken an awful lot about the occupied territories Bill. It has received cross-party support. It has gone through both Houses of our Parliament and it has not been passed. Spain has come in there, as have the Netherlands and Belgium. We really want it to be passed but it is almost after the fact at this stage.

Fair enough and I do not disagree with that. The foreign affairs committee and the ordinary legislators in the Oireachtas have expressed the view that it should be passed. I cannot account for it because it is something that has to be drafted by the Government. It is a Government Bill. I will not disagree with the witnesses that we have not done enough. I am asking a question because I have an issue with some of what the witnesses have said about this notion of complicity. Instead of recognising the steps we have taken, the suggestion is that Ireland is complicit. I am deeply uncomfortable with the flyovers, for example. I would have said prior to this Administration in the United States that it was reasonable to take America's word for what was landing in Shannon and what was flying over. We cannot do that any more.

I think Amnesty and everyone who has said it has been used for renditions would disagree.

I would like to see the Government taking steps to carry out inspections on planes that come through Shannon and to question manifests and things such as that. The context is important. What every one of the witnesses has said is that Ireland can stop this. We cannot stop it.

We can stop our part in it. We can 100% stop our part in it.

I do not think we are facilitating either. I do not accept the suggestion that we are the most important trader with Israel, as those figures are a little bit dubious in my view. Even with the valid criticisms, the issue I have is with the suggestion we are complicit and facilitating. Even if we did everything the witnesses wanted us to do, and even if we could do everything they wanted us to do, which we cannot under European law, it would not stop what Israel is doing.

It would be a start.

I do not disagree with that but the suggestion I am raising-----

What is it that the Comhchathaoirleach would like? Would he like us to congratulate?

No, that is not what I am looking for.

This is what I am wondering. Is it an acknowledgement?

What I am looking for is balance and context. What I am looking for is recognition that, although we cannot do everything we would like to do - when I say "we", I mean everyone in this room - it would not stop what was happening even if we did do it. Am I wrong in that?

You are wrong.

You are wrong.

I sat in a jail cell-----

Tell me why I am wrong.

I sat in a jail cell with Mandla Mandela and he harked back to Dunnes Stores when a handful of people started the ball rolling to bring down apartheid. This State can do more and it should do more. It should be leading the charge. If it enacted the occupied territories Bill or whatever new name is on it - I really and truly do not know - if it ceased the importation of Teva's products, if it stopped the health service working with Check Point, and if it stopped sending euros or dollars to Israel, that would be a start. Maybe it would give other larger and stronger nations the get up and go to say, "If little old Ireland can do it". We have done it before. It would start the ball rolling. I will mind my language, and I am very sorry. We are very strong on language but very poor on action, unfortunately.

I am way over time, so we will move on to Senator Andrews now.

I want to acknowledge the really good work of the Irish Consulate in Israel and Athens. The staff were really exceptional and helpful. One thing that struck me was when one of the consulate staff came into the prison. I asked him for the time but his phone and watch had been taken off him. It was remarkable that this would happen to a member of embassy staff and that nothing happened as a result. Equally remarkable is the fact that over 100 EU citizens were kidnapped in international waters and the Government has done absolutely nothing to follow up on that and to hold Israel to account for that. The Ministers for justice and for foreign affairs should be proactively leading on holding Israel to account over the kidnapping of nearly 150 EU citizens. It is beyond belief. The group has come here today to make a statement but it is really important that this does not finish with today. We need to ensure that there is follow-up action and that the Oireachtas committees on foreign affairs and EU affairs ensure that there is follow up and some attempt to hold Israel to account. Whether such an attempt is successful is another issue but an attempt should be made. The onus is on this Parliament to hold Israel to account. We need to make that effort and follow that process as far as we can.

I apologise for being late but there have been votes in the Seanad all afternoon. Indeed, another one will probably be called in about 15 minutes.

I thank the witnesses for coming in. I was Acting Leader in the Seanad when we debated an emergency motion in relation to the flotilla. The Minister of State, Deputy Thomas Byrne, attended and we also met family members of some of those on the flotilla who were in the Seanad for the debate. I have read the opening testimonies and heard what Senator Andrews had to say. We have had the opportunity to discuss this at some level and it was very important that we invited some of those who participated in the flotilla to hear their lived experience. These committees, speaking with one voice, absolutely agreed that we support unrestricted humanitarian access. We are very clear that aid workers need to be protected. We are also in agreement on the accountability piece that Senator Andrews just mentioned. There were very clearly violations of international law. The experiences of the witnesses included medication being taken from them. I know that one individual had diabetes medication taken. That is simply disgraceful. It is just not on.

I agree that we need to ensure that this does not just end here. There will be a report to the Government from these committees and we need to demand accountability in relation to how the 150 people on the flotilla who were not allowed to proceed in the first instance but also in relation to their treatment. I have also heard, as Senator Andrews has said, that the embassy staff were really good in terms of trying to support people and the fact that they were humiliated, for want of a better word, is really wrong. We need to take a strong stance in relation to this. When the European Commissioner, Mr. McGrath, was here, the Committee on European Union Affairs raised the issue with him. There is no doubt that more needs to be done at a European level as well as at an Irish level. Proposals went from the Commission to the Council to suspend trade agreements and Horizon funding and it is my understanding that negotiations are ongoing in that regard. We need to make a strong statement in relation to stopping those agreements and that funding.

I thank everyone for being here. We are indebted to the witnesses for what they have done. It was quite courageous and, unfortunately, necessary. We are constantly being told that the occupied territories Bill is not the be all and end all and I accept that. I can even accept what has been said by several TDs that even if we did absolutely everything in our power, it would not stop Benjamin Netanyahu. That goes without saying, but the example that Mr. Mac Dubhghlais gave of the Dunnes Stores workers was pertinent. That was something that was ostensibly very small because stopping the sales of South African goods in Dunnes Stores was hardly something that would bring the country to its knees. However, it played a really significant part in the anti-apartheid struggle in South Africa. Obviously, there was the action of the ANC and the MK but international pressure was also exerted. It was only when normal, white South Africans felt that they were pariahs, for want of a better term, from a pariah state that action was taken. The other major factor was that big business interests needed to do business but were being shut out of markets and we really need to get to that point in this context.

The European Union has been an absolute disgrace. The EU-Israel association agreement has any amount of humanitarian conditions attached but there is obviously a major flaw in how it was put together because they should have been triggered automatically. It should not be a requirement that the Commission offer something up. Now we are reliant on the European Council, which amounts to individual countries. I accept that Ireland has been strong in relation to that but we can also pass the occupied territories Bill. I accept that due diligence has to be carried out by the Government but, as has often been said, one gets the legal advice that one pays for. Certain things need to be done and if we need to fight in court afterwards, so be it. The occupied territories Bill is limited but we should not limit it even more by excluding services.

The witnesses have already spoken about dual-use goods. What more can be done? What more needs to be done? Can we work together to make sure that the maximum amount of pressure is put on? None of this is going to be enough on its own but if we can start something, it can change things. The only reason there is a peace plan at this point in time is because pressure was exerted on Donald Trump. He did not like the fact that there were too many pictures of kids dying and so on. We also know that the Israelis are seeking annexation and making sure there is no chance of a Palestinian state. We dread to think what their long-term plans are. We are where we are and we have to use whatever tools we have at our disposal.

On that point, there is what Ireland can do but there is also what Ireland can do as a member of the EU. We are a full member of the EU. We are not looking at the EU from outside. We are the EU.

We also have Slovenia, Spain and others-----

Yes, but in the course of an ongoing genocide, no EU country should be supplying a single weapon to Israel. We cannot put it more simply than that. Nobody who is arming a genocide or helping to arm a genocide can tell us that they are doing all that they can do. That can stop immediately and it should stop immediately. Dr. William Schabas was involved in the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa and worked at the Irish Centre for Human Rights. He has pointed out that, in all of the judgments on all of the genocides that we have had, one of the things that can be clearly construed as being complicit in a genocide is arming one. The export of dual-use goods from Ireland and the overflights are relevant here and if members take nothing else away from this meeting, the message is that they must stop. Ireland is probably committing what will later be judged to be crimes of aiding and abetting by allowing those to happen.

That is not complicated. I know how things work or are complicated. That, in its essence, is not a complicated thing. We have accepted that there is at least a plausible case to be made that a genocide is taking place in Gaza. Nobody should be allowing a weapon near the place.

The clock has gone haywire. It is no longer working. I will bring in Deputy Lahart.

I have a couple of points to make. I do not expect complicity. I say that as just an ordinary member of the committee. I would argue that point with Ms Clancy publicly. We came to hear about the flotilla and I have spoken to Deputy Heneghan about it at length. He was not a witness today, unfortunately, but I heard his story first hand and was quite shaken by the actuality of it. I will follow up by way of a parliamentary question regarding the issues that appear to be outstanding in terms of the role of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. That is one piece.

I am conscious of the Gallery here. The Taoiseach, as Head of Government, has said the Irish Government's role, duty, responsibility and objective has been - and I am not here to defend the Government - to send a clear message to the Israelis over a long period of time. The Irish Government has done that, sometimes to the point of marginalisation and isolation internationally, and I say that from an educated, knowledgeable point of view. The Government also has a duty to everybody else here in Ireland and that is to make sure we are not punished in the process. Ms Clancy may differ on that piece; I do not. I want the witnesses to know we are on the same side here. I, and other colleagues, some of whom are not here, lead the Irish delegation to the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe Parliamentary Assembly and I am chair of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade. Every time we represent this country abroad, we raise this issue with our international partners. We raise it absolutely every time, whether it is a Fianna Fáil TD, a Fine Gael Senator or TD, Independents, members of the Labour Party or of Sinn Féin. Every single one of us does that. We talk about the common themes that draw us into this, such as the famine piece, the oppression piece and the occupation piece. The witnesses may be assured that every one of their representatives does this and represents this country. Sometimes words are not enough but words also ensure that something is continuously kept on the agenda. On the EU-Israel Association Agreement, when we brought it up a few years ago, just one member supported it and then over a matter of time, because momentum had been built up, 18 or 19 eventually supported it. We are also looking at the peace piece at the moment and how Ireland could harness its experience in terms of peace in the North and decommissioning. Our committee will look at that probably in the new year.

I hate that we divide on this. I have had graffiti about me sprayed in my constituency, accusing me of complicity in genocide by people who do not know what I regard as taking a leadership role as Chair of the foreign affairs committee. The committee did not divide on the occupied territories Bill. There was not a vote on it. We all agreed on every measure that was in it. That report also recognises Government has completely different responsibilities from a committee and faces a far greater burden. It has responsibility to business, to the economy and to society and faces much bigger issues than we have had to deal with here.

The witnesses have wanted us to leave with messages. I have been very impacted by the reports they have given us. I thank them for what they did. It was a really courageous, ballsy thing to do and it is what marks us out as individuals. I thank them for doing that. I really want to pay tribute to them.

However, we, in this House, are not their enemies. We fight hard. Words are our weapons and sometimes they are not strong enough. I accept that. Ireland is small. When you go abroad representing the country, you get a real impression, particularly in today's world, of how small it is. However, our voice is big. We are leaving with messages the witnesses have imparted to us. I would like them to leave here knowing that every single opportunity we get we raise this with every single politician, whether in the US, in Canada, as happened recently, or with our international neighbours at European level. We raise it at every possible level.

So, what do you think is preventing it from stopping?

It is not for me to answer that.

It is really important to mention balance, and I know it was mentioned earlier. I have to say really strongly that there is absolutely no place for balance in a genocide. We have call out really strongly that, as much as I appreciate the fact that Deputy Lahart says he calls it out at every step he takes, meaningful action is why we are here today. As much as he says we are part of the EU and there are certain things that have to be agreed through the EU, we are allowing weapons to fly through our airspace. It is being repeated. People here have said that they absolutely stand against it as well. This has been called out for decades but now more than ever. It is the same with the trade agreement. It has been shown now that we have a right to change that because of the human rights violations that are happening. Therefore, there is no place for balance. This is not about trying to make out that anybody here does not care about the oppression of any other person in Ireland or anywhere else. We stand very strongly with anybody who is struggling within Ireland or anywhere else but we are watching a genocide unfold in front of our face, so we cannot use the word "balance" when we are talking about it.

To be clear, certainly in terms of what I said, and I know from discussions at this committee, we are not saying it should be balance in relation to genocide. The balance I am talking about is just acknowledgement of the fact that we have done things. I totally accept Ms Moynihan's opinion that we have not done enough. I may even share aspects of it. Deputy Lahart has mentioned international forums. I go to the Conference of Parliamentary Committees for Union Affairs, COSAC, which is a committee of all the European affairs committees of the European Union. We also raise it there, as do the delegations. The EU-Israel Association Agreement is on the work programme for the Joint Committee on European Affairs. The issues the witnesses raise are very much part of our work programme. Ms Clancy was saying we are the EU. I agree with that statement absolutely but we are also only one of 27 member states. I know, and Deputy Lahart will have shared this, you come up against a brick wall on this issue with certain countries.

Agreed.

We are totally at odds with Germany, for example. I genuinely fear, as a pro European, that the favourable reputation of Europe in Ireland will be damaged by the failure of the European Union to act in relation to this. We cannot act alone, unfortunately.

It is really important at this point to mention that one of the reasons we are all here is because - I will speak for myself but I think everyone else will agree - I do not believe the international institutions are doing what we are asking them to do any longer. That is why the global movement has started. The global movement is the biggest the world has ever seen. There are countries and citizens from every corner of the globe, nationalities from over 80 different countries, who are involved in this global movement right now, and that is only going to grow. It is something we all need to consider. I know we do not want to be divided but we are currently divided. That is why Irish citizens and other people are putting their lives directly at risk and will continue to do so because we do not believe that the speed of what is happening is in any way appropriate to watch over two years of a genocide. There are no excuses left.

By way of closing, I will comment very briefly. I have a statement and I also have a request to ask of the committee in terms of whether we are doing everything we can do. Genocide is the crime of all crimes. It is erga omnes, which in international humanitarian law and international law just means no matter how it happens or where it happens, it is deplorable and all actions must be taken against it to prevent and it. I will let Ms Clancy in for a moment and I will come back.

I know people were cut off earlier and that people in the Gallery wanted to make comments. Unfortunately, we cannot take comments from the Gallery but I do want to give anybody who felt they did not get a chance to finish a point earlier a chance to finish it now.

The end of that thought is that there is something self-negating in Deputy Lahart's point - and I say this respectfully - in that he has made an assertion that he has called it out on every available occasion over the last number of decades. However, if that was effective, then this would not be happening. The Palestinian community has been suffocated in every which way for nearly eight decades now.

It has escalated to a point of absolute devastation. Even if the state is recognised, if they do not have a land to return to or infrastructure where they can live, that recognition of a state is futile. The only thing that we know that works is economic means. Boycott, divest and sanction is the only thing that has turned around deplorable statutory actions and deplorable human rights in apartheid regimes in other settings. That is the only effective means to remedy this. That is why addressing the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade is so pivotal. This committee has a large capacity to effect and make a difference to Palestinian lives.

My last question and request is simply that the committee asks the Tánaiste what he meant when he stated that there would be accountability for breaches of international law in the public statement that he cosigned with 15 other nation states and Heads of State on 16 September 2025. I want to know specifically what breaches meant in that context, what breaches he was specifically referring to and what accountability he was specifically referring to.

Deputy Ward had to leave. There are a few housekeeping bits before I come to the next speaker. It seems to be a particularly busy day for Senator Stephenson in the Seanad because she would have definitely have wanted to be here. She texted me that she cannot be here. Deputies Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire and Duncan Smith are from my committee, the foreign affairs committee. An Abitration Bill is going through the House at the moment. They are speaking on that. Otherwise they would have spent more time here. They send their apologies.

I am going to wind up. The witnesses have a minute or two each if they would like to speak to anything.

I am going to address the Comhchathaoirleach directly because I think I hurt his feelings.

Do not think that. I thank her for her consideration.

The people who we are here speaking for are in a lot worse circumstances than any of our feelings. I am speaking to the Comhchathaoirleach for the amputees in Gaza. I am speaking to him for the children with no living relatives who are left. It is not a matter of whether the members are our enemies. They are our representatives. That is all over Ireland. I am a community worker. I work with community groups, the GAA and Tidy Towns. Every person who I am meeting wants more action from the Irish Government on this. This is not an activist. You do not have to be someone going on a flotilla. Everyone the length and breadth of Ireland wants more action.

The reason we want more action specifically is because we are Irish. We know this story. We know the stories of famine and displacement. We know what it takes. We wanted to have our own right to determine our future. We wanted to have the right to elect our government and conduct our own trade. Palestinians only want what we have, what people before us fought for and what all of us defend. The members are not our enemies; they are our representatives. All we are asking of them is to please leave no action they could take untaken, in particular those that look like they could, and are likely to, make us legally complicit, whether we are ever followed up for that or not. As Irish people, we can lead. We do not always have to follow.

I echo what my comrades have said here. It is hard to continue watching what is happening and the mainstream media are not covering a lot. I do not think a lot of the people are aware of what is going on. This ceasefire has been detrimental in terms of people's awareness, in that it is only a ceasefire by name, not by action.

I think I have said plenty. To reiterate, the global movement to Gaza and the people of Ireland are clear in what we are asking for. We are asking the Government to take meaningful action. In taking meaningful action, it is to do what we cannot to impact Israel. It might not change everything but it can start something. As Ms Clancy said, we can lead and we should be leading, based on our past. One of the big reasons we are also asking to do this is so that the people of Ireland can stop putting their own lives at such risk. Another land convoy and a flotilla will be happening in the coming months. I guarantee the Comhchathaoirleach that thousands of people from Ireland are going to apply to go on this. People are putting their lives at risk in Ireland every day in relation to how they are acting for Palestine. They are putting their sovereignty at risk when they are being arrested and charged with crimes for trying to stop a genocide. People are going on the flotillas to try to stop a genocide because we do not believe our Government is taking as much action as it should.

I would like to comment on the fact that relying on purely diplomatic channels has resulted in a people and their land nearly being erased. That is the current situation. Palestine no longer appears on Google Maps. Israel appears. There is a very near brink of extinction of a people and a culture. That is not something that we can objectively watch without taking meaningful action. The jurisprudence of the International Court of Justice has dictated and determined that in various orders and advisory opinions that the settlements are unlawful, the occupation is unlawful, the blockade is unlawful and that four out of five of the acts required to constitute a genocide are present and have been present between 8 October 2023 and 31 July 2025. That is more than enough to categorically have a departure from diplomatic channels of negotiation with what can only be described as a rogue state and mandates a far stronger, more concrete approach, including boycott, divest and sanction.

We are veering into a dangerous territory internationally where the rule of law is being affronted. A mockery is being made of the rule of law because it is not being applied equally on the international scene and it is not being applied equally to certain groups of people, including Palestinians. As a human rights defender and as a lawyer, I am gravely concerned about the situation we are in internationally now, where the rule of law can so flagrantly and blatantly be abused and misapplied and there be zero consequences for the actors that abuse it.

I have two short things to say. I was asked earlier about trauma. One of my mechanisms to deal with it is to hide it and squash it down inside. It was only when something was mentioned here that I remembered when we were in the jail that you could hear the dogs barking at the Palestinians, wherever they were in this big prison. That still haunts me. It sits with me at night time and then I get emotional.

It was mentioned earlier on what tangible things we can do. Somebody somewhere signs contracts with Teva. Somebody somewhere signs contracts with Chequepoint. Without big fanfare, these things can be closed down when contracts are due for renewal. Israel has an old saying, "As long as people are talking, they are not doing". That is what it relies on. You will go to whatever meetings you go to and you will be talking to people. Israelis do not care. You are only talking, nothing is actually happening.

For those who were on the Global Sumud Flotilla, in years to come our children and grandchildren can look at us and say we did the right thing. We are on the right side of history. As it stands, the majority of people in power around the world are not on the right side of history. They are saying nice things and there are great soundbites but in terms of actions they are doing nothing. It is words not deeds for many of these people. It is just not happening. We will be back next year. We will have been kidnapped again one more time. Hopefully, nobody gets injured or killed. I do not see anything changing unless at a senior political level and global political level people change. It is deeds not words. They need to do things, not just talk about it.

One of the reasons I think we were enthusiastic as two committees to host this was at the initiative of Senator Chris Andrews and others. It was enthusiastically supported by all the members of both committees. It has been a privilege to co-chair it. It is important to have a record of these things into the future. We hope that we have assisted in a small part in ensuring that there is a record kept of this.

The question-and-answer session is now complete. I sincerely thank Mr. Mac Dubhghlais, Ms Clancy, Ms Brosnan, Ms Moynihan and Ms Schwarz for their attendance today and for their insightful and powerful contributions. What happened with the flotilla in international waters undoubtedly raises further and significant questions around the adherence to international law by Israel.

Indeed, many legal experts have suggested that the arrest of persons in international waters may be a serious breach of international law and I have made a commitment that we will follow up on some of the issues our witnesses have raised. Today's meeting also highlights the ongoing and dire humanitarian situation in Gaza. Of course, both committees will continue to follow and scrutinise the Irish and EU responses to this catastrophe, and today's engagement gives us further insight into the challenges posed by the ongoing conflict.

Finally, but not in any way least, I wish to acknowledge and commend the bravery of all who participated, including our witnesses here today, and Senator Andrews, who is a member of the Joint Committee on European Union Affairs. I thank the witnesses again and I look forward to further engagement in the future.