I am sorry for the delay. This is what happens sometimes on Tuesdays. Unusually, there was a second vote called today, which takes up some time.

I advise members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, a member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any members participating via Microsoft Teams that, prior to making a contribution to the meeting, they confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make her, him or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Today, the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade will look at the situation in Afghanistan, including human rights and particularly the treatment of women and girls. I welcome our witnesses: Mr. Richard Bennett, the United Nations special rapporteur on Afghanistan; and Ms Mahbooba Faiz and Mr. Hassan Ali Faiz, members of the Human Rights Defender Committee.

The format of the meeting is that we will hear the opening statement followed by a question-and-answer session with members. Each member usually has seven minutes and that includes the question and the answer. A timer will appear on screen that witnesses will be able to see. I will guide them along the way in any event. I ask members to be concise in their questions to allow everyone the opportunity to participate.

Our witnesses are all very welcome. I now open the floor to them to make their opening statements, starting with Mr. Richard Bennett, followed by Ms Mahbooba Faiz and then Mr. Hassan Ali Faiz. I call Mr. Bennett. You are on mute, which is the most famous phrase of the 21st century.

I should have learned by now. Good afternoon to the Chair, members of the committee, members of the public and friends from Afghanistan civil society. I thank the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade for convening this important hearing.

As we are all aware, the human rights situation in Afghanistan has deteriorated dramatically since August 2021. While it is well known that women and girls are being treated appallingly by the de facto authorities, perhaps less known is a range of human rights violations against the entire population or other segments of the population, which not only deprives Afghans of their rights but could even affect international peace and security.

Afghanistan has suffered from decades of war and violations of the human rights of its people, especially of women. However, since retaking power, the Taliban has issued a litany of decrees and edicts which deprive women and girls of their fundamental rights. They are barred from education beyond grade six, eliminating access to secondary school, university and even medical training. Women's employment has been severely curtailed, with many removed from public sector jobs. Although women-owned businesses are allowed, some, including salons, have been shut down. A mahram - meaning "chaperone" - requirement obliges women to travel with a male guardian, while strict hijab rules are restrictive and oppressive. Additional bans prevent women from entering public parks, gyms and bathhouses, severely restricting daily life. The list goes on.

As the de facto authority, the Taliban has also fundamentally transformed Afghanistan's legal and judicial framework. The constitution has been suspended, existing laws have been abolished or replaced and institutions have been dissolved or repurposed to align with the Taliban's ideological mode of governance. Judges have largely been replaced by Taliban-aligned religious figures, all of them men. There are no prosecutors and defence lawyers are limited. Institutions and laws that once provided specific protection for women, particularly those addressing gender-based violence, have been dismantled. Today, there are no women judges or prosecutors in the country and no officially recognised female lawyers. The national human rights commission has been abolished.

Instead, there is a growing body of so-called laws and decrees that formalise and institutionalise repression. In August 2024, the de facto authorities announced the law for the promotion of virtue and the prevention of vice, consolidating and, in some cases, extending many of the discriminatory policies imposed since the Taliban seized power. In January, the Taliban announced new "criminal rules of courts", a kind of penal code that further embeds the group's ideology and raises serious human rights concerns. These rules lack basic due process protections; allow for broad and arbitrary interpretation; codify a discriminatory social hierarchy; reference slavery; permit violence against women, including domestic violence; codify male control within marriage; greatly expand the use of the death penalty and corporal punishment; appear to empower members of the public to impose punishments; and dramatically curtail fundamental freedoms, including the right to freedom of religion or belief. Together with other UN independent experts, I recently issued a communication to the acting Minister of Foreign Affairs calling for these rules to be rescinded and just a few days ago, that letter was made public.

The Taliban's violations of the rights of women and girls are so severe, widespread and systematic that I and others, including judges at the International Criminal Court, have concluded that they constitute an attack on the civilian population, which amounts to crimes against humanity, in particular, persecution on grounds of gender. They are also well characterised as gender apartheid. While women and girls bear the brunt of Taliban oppression, men, boys and gender-diverse persons, ethnic and religious minorities, LGBTQ+ people, other marginalised communities such as people with disabilities and the independent media all face a deeply repressive regime that dictates almost every aspect of life. No one is spared.

Other regressive developments include the shrinking of civic space; severe restrictions on media and freedom of expression; arbitrary arrest and unlawful detention; torture; targeted killings, including of former security forces and government officials; enforced disappearances; and the oppression of minority and marginalised groups, among others. While girls and women are denied education, there are also concerns that the education system as a whole is becoming increasingly narrow to fit the Taliban's ideology. Poverty, unemployment and radicalisation, particularly of young men, represents a potent cocktail with potential security implications, including beyond Afghanistan’s borders.

Yet, in the face of systemic oppression, Afghan women continue to show remarkable strength, resilience and dedication, finding creative ways to learn, work, advocate, document and support one another. Their courage should not just impress us; it should compel us to act.

As I have said many times, to counter and reverse the multitude of human rights violations, no single measure will be effective on its own. What is needed is an all tools approach, one which comprises a range of interventions, which, cumulatively, could make a difference and contribute to the emergence of a safe, stable and inclusive Afghanistan. This approach, which I will be happy to expand on during the question-and-answer session, includes sustained and principled international pressure, including avoiding normalisation, legitimisation or recognition of the Taliban; ensuring comprehensive international accountability, not only for the Taliban but for all perpetrators; the codification of the crime of gender apartheid; strengthened support for civil society, especially women-led organisations; fully funding the humanitarian response for Afghanistan; expanding education and economic empowerment opportunities for women and girls; support for countries hosting Afghan refugees, including protection support and creating resettlement pathways; the inclusion of the voices of Afghan youth; and last but not least, centring women's rights, voices and agency in all discussions about the future of the country.

Ireland has an important role to play in this regard, both bilaterally and in multilateral forums. I note that Ireland will hold the EU Presidency between June and December. That will surely be an opportunity to demonstrate leadership. Now, more than ever, we must ensure meaningful support, protection and sustained pressure to restore dignity, equality and justice for all Afghans. I thank the committee.

I thank Mr. Bennett. I now call Ms Mahbooba Faiz. With the agreement of the committee, I will call on my colleague, Deputy Ó Laoghaire, to take the Chair for this part of the session.

I wish a good afternoon to the Cathaoirleach, Senators and members of the committee. I thank them for the invitation to appear before the committee this afternoon. I am originally from Afghanistan and have been living in Ireland since September 2021. I am a women's rights activist and the lead founder of the Irish Campaign for Recognition of Gender Apartheid. I appreciate the opportunity to address the situation of the human rights of women and girls in Afghanistan and the case for the recognition of gender apartheid.

Afghanistan has undergone a systematic transformation into a regime of institutionalised gender-based persecution that amounts to gender apartheid. Since 2021, and with intensified enforcement, the Taliban has implemented a comprehensive policy of discriminatory laws and practices that exclude women and girls from all aspects of public life. Women and girls are now effectively erased from society. They are denied access to education beyond grade six, prohibited from employment, restricted in their movement and excluded from healthcare and the justice system. These measures are enforced through constant surveillance, violence and fear. The policies of the Taliban constitute a systematic and institutionalised regime of discrimination and domination based on gender. This meets the threshold of gender apartheid. These measures also amount to persecution as a crime against humanity under the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, which involves the intentional and severe deprivation of fundamental rights against an identifiable group. We believe that the definition of "persecution" under Article 7 of the Rome Statute fails to encompass the systematic severity of gender apartheid.

The extent of the crisis is clear. Today, 2.2 million girls are out of school, and that figure is projected to reach 4 million by 2030. Access to education for women has fallen from 39% to 3%. Approximately 220,000 women have lost employment since the Taliban takeover. Women previously held 27% of parliamentary seats; now they are completely excluded. Reports indicate that 91% of victims suffer from severe depression and 25% have considered suicide.

The Taliban has continued to restrict the freedom of movement of women and has confined them to their homes. They are prohibited from accessing public spaces, including markets, parks, gyms, places of worship and entertainment venues. There are effectively no legal remedies available for women and girls. Victims of domestic violence are routinely returned to abusive households where they continue to experience violence. Those who resist face detention. The absence of shelters and legal aid has created a climate of impunity.

In January 2026, the Taliban enacted a new criminal procedure code for courts, which formalises human rights violations. The code transforms state-sponsored repression into a formal legal framework and codifies a governance system built on surveillance and coercion. The code permits domestic violence by allowing the physical punishment of women by husbands, provided that such violence does not result in visible injury such as broken bones or open wounds. Taken together, these developments show that the system of discrimination and repression is no longer limited to policy or practice but has been formally codified into law.

The situation in Afghanistan is a severe human rights crisis. Ireland, within the international community, has a role in addressing this crisis. Ireland, as the chair of the preparatory committee bureau, can play a unique, albeit formally neutral, role. While Ireland may not push for a specific substantive proposal, it retains substantial capacity to shape the process of inclusion and direction by effectively engaging affected communities and civil society actors. The Oireachtas should call upon the Government to formally recognise the situation in Afghanistan as constituting gender apartheid. It should consistently invoke this terminology in diplomatic and political engagements. Such recognition would demonstrate solidarity with Afghan women and girls and reinforce the long-standing commitment of Ireland to gender equality within its foreign policy framework.

I wish a good afternoon to the Cathaoirleach and the Deputies and Senators who are members of the committee. It is a true honour to be here and I thank the committee very much for inviting me to this important hearing. I am a minority rights activist. I am currently volunteering with a US-based NGO that works for minorities. Today, I will focus on ethnic, religious and LGBTQ+ communities. However, my main focus will be on the most persecuted ethnic and religious minorities, in particular the Shia Hazara ethno-religious community.

In order to understand the dynamics of ethnic-based discrimination, I will give the committee an overview of ethnic composition in Afghanistan. The figures I will share today are pure guesstimates. No census has ever been conducted in Afghanistan. We do not know the exact population, the ethnic composition or the numbers who make up each ethnic group.

Of the over 20 ethnic groups, the four largest are Pashtuns, Tajiks, Hazaras and Uzbeks. Pashtuns are generally regarded as comprising approximately 40% to 46% of the population, followed by Tajiks at 25% to 27%, Hazaras at 9% to 20% - that is very contested - and Uzbeks at 6% to 9%. Others are around 12%. As I said, these are just guesstimates, given the sensitivity of the number of ethnic groups and ethnic politics in Afghanistan, so the exact numbers for ethnic groups are unknown. Among these ethnic groups, Hazaras are Shia Muslims and the rest are Sunni. Under the Bonn Agreement, post-US military intervention in Afghanistan in 2001, political power among ethnic groups was distributed based on their perceived demographic weight at the time. Under this arrangement, the 30 cabinet positions were distributed as 11 seats for Pashtuns, eight for Tajiks, five for Hazaras, three for Uzbeks and three for all other ethnicities.

Currently under the Taliban regime, which is exclusively Sunni Muslim and predominantly ethnic Pashtuns, 90% of the leadership positions are held by Pashtuns and 10% by all other ethnic groups. Among the Hazaras, representation is 0.7%, and the percentage is declining, with no one in a senior ministerial role. Even in provinces where Shia Hazaras form the majority, provincial governors and district-level governors are exclusively Sunni Muslims and predominantly Pashtuns. It shows how the Taliban is resorting to ethnic politics and dividing ethnic groups around its political interests.

The Taliban frequently discriminates against other ethnic and religious groups. Certain areas of the country with Pashtun populations have received a disproportionately greater share of resources. For instance, in 2025, 136 development projects were allocated to the Shinwari district alone, while other districts in Parwan province with non-Pashtun ethnic groups had significantly less access to such resources. In another example, in February 2025, cash assistance and food packages were distributed to 9,820 families of the Pashtun ethnic community in several districts of Ghazni province, while no single non-Pashtun received any money. This is all based on reports released by Rawadari, an Afghan NGO based in London. In another example, in three Pashtun-inhabited districts of Ghazni province, the Taliban allocated 98 development projects worth over $6 million, while in all other districts the Taliban allocated projects worth $46,000. The province has 19 districts although some are also inhabited by the Pashtuns. The districts I am mentioning are favourable to the Taliban on the basis that during their fighting against the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan they were supporting the Taliban and now they gain much favour from them.

There are reports that international aid is being diverted away from provinces with a Hazara population. The Taliban permits only a fraction of aid to reach Hazara communities on the condition that much larger portions are directed elsewhere. The Hazaras and Tajiks are systematically removed from government positions. It is reported that over 50 Hazara professors and lecturers have been removed from their positions in Bamiyan University alone. Bamiyan is the capital of the homeland of the Hazara community. Just two or three days ago, Hazara students in Bamiyan University were ordered to convert to Sunni Islam, when all of them are Shia Muslims.

The persecution of the Hazara community is still widespread and systematic. Since the Taliban takeover of power, there have been 32 documented incidents resulting in around 344 deaths and 623 injuries. However, the New Lines Institute based in America has put the number of incidents at 61. The Hazaras have been continuously displaced from their homes and lands. Thousands of Hazaras have been displaced from their homes in multiple provinces. In Ghazni province, the Ministry of Justice of the Taliban has asked the residents of Nawabad town, where thousands of families live – more than 30,000 and some sources say 18,000 families - were told to leave their town declaring it state property despite evidence that the land had been lawfully purchased by private individuals.

The Taliban has put extreme restrictions on Shia religious ceremonies. It has put enormous pressure on Ismaili Shias to convert to Hanafi Sunni Islam. They have been intimidated, detained and tortured in the Taliban detention centres. About 50 Ismaili Shias were forcibly converted to Hanafi Islam in 2025 alone and 15 Ismaili Shia men were detained and tortured. The Taliban has removed Shia jurisprudence from all educational curriculums, including in places with an absolute majority of Shia population.

The situation of LGBTQ+ individuals indicates one of the most extreme cases of human rights abuse. Since 2021, at least 825 cases of violence against LGBTQ+ persons have been recorded, alongside over 150 arrests. Members of the LGBTQ+ community are effectively erased from legal existence and they are unable to obtain identity documents without hiding their identity. Many are subjected to forced marriages and violence within their own families.

I thank Mr. Faiz. I thank all our speakers for making the time to discuss this issue with us and to improve our awareness of this terrible situation. I will open the floor to questions now. Deputy Bennett has the first slot.

I welcome everyone here. I am very sorry to hear everything that is going on. It is a terrible scandal. I understand Ireland advocated at a recent session of the Human Rights Council for the establishment of an independent investigative mechanism to deliver accountability for human rights abuses in Afghanistan. Will the witnesses outline why such mechanisms are important? Is the mechanism of investigation that was supposed to be established one up and running now?

I can speak to that. I thank the Deputy for the question, which is a good one. After several years of advocacy – I congratulate civil society for their advocacy over this and I supported them – in October last year, the Human Rights Council did establish an independent investigative mechanism for Afghanistan. It is somewhat like the mechanisms that had been established for Syria and Myanmar. It is established in law. It is still getting up and running. The mechanism has a budget but not a big one. They have advertised a few posts, including the head of this mechanism. They will be hired and it will be up and running quite soon. I was also pleased that Ireland was strongly in support of this mechanism. The EU itself played a critical role because the EU holds the pen in the Human Rights Council on Afghanistan.

Once the EU came around to this idea, it got pushed through by consensus. Although one country distanced itself a bit, it was not put to a vote. That is the first time such a mechanism has been passed in the Human Rights Council or anywhere like that by consensus. There is pretty much agreement that there needs to be a proper investigative mechanism. It will investigate at the level of criminal evidence with a view to putting together files for prosecution. It does not have the capacity to prosecute but is expected to co-operate with others, like the International Criminal Court, and with countries that exercise universal jurisdiction.

Its mandate is what is often called comprehensive, in that it is not time-bound. That means it is not bound to any group or party. It can focus on crimes committed by the Taliban or IS but it also has a mandate to look into crimes committed in the past. One of the points Afghan civil society, Afghan historians, human rights activists and others make is that although the current situation is shocking, Afghanistan has suffered decades of conflict, violence and human rights violations and it is necessary to get to the root causes and to hold all accountable for serious violations, including all those involved in different phases of fighting in Afghanistan.

Mr. Bennett discussed the need to support the documentation of systematic killings and abuses. Can any of the witnesses speak to what this might look like? Is the reason it is not happening due to funding - or is it happening? Are the witnesses documenting all the killings and abuses?

There is not a systematic process of data collection, unfortunately. For the absolute majority of human rights NGOs that were active, the individuals working for them got dispersed. Almost all of them collapsed. A few human rights NGOs are still active. Rawadari is a human rights NGO based in London that is active and is documenting human rights violations. The NGO I volunteer with also documents atrocities against the Hazara community.

I understand Ireland is part of the advisory board for the Afghanistan humanitarian fund for 2025-2026. Maybe the Department could outline what its role on the board entails. Ireland is involved. Is that correct?

As I mentioned, Ireland is involved. It is chairing the bureau but we would like it to support the women of Afghanistan in their fight for justice and, especially, for the recognition of gender apartheid. We have been in contact with the Department of foreign affairs for the past year. Unfortunately, Ireland has not taken a public position yet when it comes to explicitly supporting the inclusion of gender apartheid as a stand-alone crime against humanity. We are grateful for the support we have so far received from Ireland and the Minister for foreign affairs in terms of giving us the space to be the voices of Afghan women. We appreciate the opportunity and the level of support received so far but we urge Ireland to take a more supportive and proactive role on gender apartheid.

Does Ireland fund that cause?

I am not quite sure about that. We have been engaging with them.

I thank the witnesses for coming in and for their opening statements. I just have a few questions It is very difficult to hear their concerns. What specific action is Ireland taking at EU and UN levels to respond to the exclusion of women and girls from education and public life in Afghanistan?

We would like not only Ireland but all EU member states not to engage with the Taliban. The Taliban is a despicable terrorist group. It should not be granted political recognition and member states should not engage with it. We would like Ireland to support the voices of Afghan women when it comes to education and to support online classes and scholarships for women trying to study online. For those woman and activists at risk who have not been able to get out of Afghanistan and who are still waiting, we would like Ireland to grant them protection and offer them visas so they can get out of Afghanistan and find safety in Ireland or elsewhere.

I am in contact with Afghan human rights defenders who were generously relocated by Ireland. We are very thankful to the Government of Ireland for that. There is a big diaspora community of Afghans in Ireland but we do not know exactly what Ireland is doing when it comes to human rights situations in Afghanistan. There is no channel between the Government of Ireland and Afghan human rights defenders. That is why we lack knowledge and information about what Ireland is really doing and what we are really doing in Ireland. I do not think the authorities have any knowledge of that because there is no communication between human rights defenders in Ireland and the Government of Ireland.

I thank the witnesses for those answers. Will Mr. Bennett outline how Ireland is engaging with the work he is doing? What steps can we take to support the continuation and strengthening of his mandate?

I thank the Deputy for that question. Ireland has spoken out regularly in the Human Rights Council. It was one of the leading lights and voted with the EU in favour of the establishment of a new investigative mechanism. It has also spoken out consistently in support of my mandate. There are a couple of other things that could be done. I am underfunded - everyone is underfunded.

The budget approved to support my mandate is not delivered. I have a mandate not only to make reports, and I think I have managed to keep up with making reports, but also to document human rights violations and to preserve them. The staff that are supposed to be provided are not coming my way. I am supposed to have ten staff. How many do I have right now? I have two staff. The number will be going up to four or five by the summer but I am simply not able to manage with the resources I have. I am not able to take voluntary contributions from Ireland. It is really a matter of encouraging the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights in Geneva. It is also possible that I can accept secondments. I have had a gender adviser seconded through UN Women but that is coming to an end. I would like a child rights adviser. These kinds of things could be helpful.

The other thing that is helpful, and it follows on from Mr. Faiz’s response, is that some Irish NGOs are doing great work. These include Front Line Defenders, which is supporting human rights defenders in Afghanistan and in neighbouring countries, such as in Pakistan and Iran, to give them some protection, and, in some cases, to help their pathways to secure futures, whether in Ireland or in other countries. I think we are all very familiar with the evacuation that took place in 2021. Unfortunately, there are many people who are still stranded for whom it is extremely dangerous to live in Afghanistan. Some countries, including European countries, are already or are seriously considering sending Afghan failed asylum seekers or sometimes those who have committed crimes back to Afghanistan. Many are being sent back from the neighbouring countries I mentioned already. I think Ireland could do more in this respect as well.

Ms Faiz also talked about gender apartheid. The codification of gender apartheid is going on at the moment in New York in the legal committee of the UN General Assembly's Sixth Committee. It will take several years but I am in favour of gender apartheid being codified as part of the new crimes against humanity treaty. I also talked about using all tools. There is no panacea for the situation in Afghanistan. There is a need to bring together other tools, including documentation and future prosecutions, but also pressure, for example, in respect of flagrant violations of UN treaties, like the Convention on the Elimination of All Form of Discrimination against Women. Four countries have initiated a legal action against Afghanistan under that treaty that may go to the International Court of Justice. That is perhaps somewhere else Ireland could play a role.

On education, there is a lot of informal, underground, and sometimes aboveground, education going on. There is actually an Alliance for the Education of Women in Afghanistan, AEWA. It has a membership of 216 groups. It is having its annual meeting in Geneva in June. I just talked to one of the organisers yesterday. Funnelling political and financial support into the education of girls and creating a better kind of co-ordination between all these groups would be helpful. I also mentioned when I spoke earlier the need to fund civil society, not only documenters but women-led organisations that are still alive and still managing to do important human rights, humanitarian and gender work in Afghanistan. Those organisations, however, will perish and not be able to survive because of the political pressure they are under, especially if they do not have resources. In this regard, too, I think Ireland could also play an important role.

I thank Mr. Bennett.

I appreciate the time the witnesses have taken. It is a great insight into the terrible situation in Afghanistan. It is hard to know where to learn more about the situation and what we can do.

My first question is for Mr. Bennett. There are two parts to it. One concerns the point in terms of international pressure and so on. At times, international organisations have had limited success in applying pressure to bring about change, particularly in autocratic or authoritarian countries, of which Afghanistan is undoubtedly one. This aspect has been the source of a fair bit of international commentary recently.

Mr. Bennett also said that despite the repression of women and girls there are some inspiring examples of resistance or opposition to that repression. Can he tell us a bit more about the kinds of things happening on the ground in terms of resisting the complete exclusion of women and girls from civic and public life in Afghanistan?

Ms Faiz gave the number of women and girls now out of school. Is that uniform across the whole country? Mr. Bennett spoke about the different ethnic makeup in parts of the country. Is this situation uniform across Afghanistan or are there parts of the country in which some or perhaps substantial numbers of girls are still in the education system?

For anyone who wants to take this question, then, is there much political opposition in Afghanistan to the Taliban now? Is it organised and coherent or is it simply the case that the Taliban has extinguished any dissent since it retook power?

Mr. Faiz might wish to pick up on this aspect. All the speakers referred to not seeking to normalise the Taliban. I think this is vitally important. I certainly would not advocate normalising relations, and I imagine very few people would. I assume the fact that this point was brought up, however, means that perhaps some countries, whether in the region or globally, are considering normalising relations with the Taliban. Can he tell us a bit about what countries these are and for what reason they are looking to normalise relations?

I will start by saying that the spirit, the resistance and the hope many Afghans have is incredibly impressive. It spans everything from, as I mentioned, education, which is informal education, through to different protest activities to women and youth raising their voices in all sorts of forums, in person, online, internationally and within Afghanistan. It really does show that the Taliban has not vanquished the population. There is still a massive amount that Afghans are doing but it needs scaling up and supporting. Regarding informal education, I mentioned the more than 200 groups but there is still a need to scale up.

Equally, the answer is not just opening the school doors to girls. It is also about the content of education, for girls and boys. This aspect is very worrying. I mentioned radicalisation earlier. This is radicalisation in accordance with the Taliban’s ideology. It would probably say it is in terms of Sharia but many Afghans do not agree with the Taliban’s interpretation of it. That is one area.

I wrote two reports recently on thematic issues. One was on access to justice, and the other was on access to health. What came out from that, really, was that it is kind of amazing that these systems have not utterly collapsed.

It is true that, due to the dedication of Afghan health professionals who are working on a shoestring, there are some health services, albeit extremely difficult to access for groups that are marginalised, whether ethnically such as the Hazara who were mentioned, or geographically or by gender. The country is still kind of staggering along thanks to millions of Afghans who despite, not because of, the system are still fighting back.

The Deputy asked whether there is any political opposition. There is. There is political opposition and even armed opposition, but the de facto authorities are fighters, as we have seen, and have basically inherited enormous quantities of arms. Some say they have become arms dealers or traders selling arms to make money. It is difficult to see them being overcome militarily, but it is also important that, through the education system in particular, they do not control the population ideologically. That worries me in the long term. Also, as I mentioned, commentaries and research are beginning to suggest radicalisation may not be contained within Afghanistan's borders.

I thank the witnesses for their contributions. They are frightening to hear at first hand. I have read about it and seen things on TV, but hearing the witnesses' direct accounts is frightening. We are here as TDs, as representatives of the people who put us here, but I and my colleagues on both sides of the table are also parents. It is hard for us to hear that and imagine our children in that situation. The unfortunate thing about it is that, with the geopolitical situation at the moment, Afghanistan and what is going on there is quite simply under radar. Gaza is horrific, as is Sudan and what is going in Iran. There are all these issues and they are just pushing this down further and further. This has escalated since 2021 when the Taliban came in, but it is only going on one trajectory - up. I read last night that a law brought in this year means men can now beat women and their children - the report referred to young women but they are children - as long as they do not break their bones. For a group of people to sit around a table and put that together, and for a country to allow that law to pass, is just typical of what has been going on. With international law in mind, the word "investigating" is the simplest word in world politics at the moment. Do the witnesses think anything will come out of those investigations? If it does, will the Taliban even take on board what has been said? Are they above the law? Sorry, there is a lot in that.

Before answering the question, I will make two points. The Taliban are running 22,000 madrasas, or religious schools, which are radicalising the population. There are 22,000. They have shut down the schools but have opened these madrasas or religious schools that are radicalising people. It is horrific. Imagine what will happen in ten years with this mushroom growth of madrasas or religious schools. There will be millions of radicalised terrorists in the country. According to reports, in 2025, the Taliban arrested and imprisoned at least 192 individuals on charges of collaborating or having a connection to military or political opposition groups. In 2024, it was 282 and in 2023, it was 124 cases of people being imprisoned or killed for having collaborated with opposition groups. The Taliban are suppressing any movement they consider could somehow be against this-----

I am conscious of time. On my point, what support are the people of Afghanistan getting from international courts? If there are any rulings by courts following these investigations, which are taking a long time, will the Taliban take on board the rulings?

Afghanistan is a signatory of seven of the nine core human rights conventions, but the Taliban have suspended the constitution and the human rights commission of Afghanistan. They have no respect for all these conventions they have ratified. Several top officials of the Taliban are on the blacklist of the UN but, unfortunately, nothing tangible is really happening. They are wanted by the International Criminal Court, ICC, but nothing has come out of that.

It will be ignored.

Will Ms Faiz come in on this question? I do not call it education. It is a lack of education, which will lead to radicalisation. As Mr. Faiz asked, where will it end? It will affect 2.2 million and up to perhaps 4 million. Will Ms Faiz expand on that?

It is appalling because, as I mentioned, by 2030, the number will reach 4 million. That means 4 million girls will be away from school, which is not acceptable. It is the duty of the international community to put pressure on the Taliban. The past five years has seen the Taliban disregard and breach all international norms and standards. They will continue to do so. It is for the international community to put pressure on them and not recognise the Taliban regime as a legitimate government. Unless there is pressure from the international community, the Taliban will not change.

On the key word Ms Faiz is using, "pressure", the international community can put pressure on Afghanistan, but more than likely that will only affect the people on the ground, based on history. How can we tackle the lack of education without that happening? We need pressure coming from international circles, but I am afraid it will end up affecting those on the ground the most.

It is destructive. This will destroy the future of a whole generation.

Does Mr. Bennett want to come in on that?

I agree with the Deputy that Afghanistan is off the radar screen. However, there is a paradox in education. The paradox is that the more the Taliban have tried to remove education, the greater the appetite for education is. Girls still go to primary school, but education is not being achieved for girls beyond that, yet the appetite for education among Afghan girls and young women is amazing. Therefore, the international community can do more to deliver education in ways that do not involve going to school.

At the same time, it must convince the Taliban not only to open school doors, which is going to be tough, but also to broaden the kind of education that it wants. People often ask where the leverage is. Member states say to me, "We do not have any leverage. What can we do? How can we put on pressure?" What does the Taliban want? It wants recognition and normalisation. It wants its seat in the UN. It wants to be treated like a normal country. Second, it wants the sanctions dropped. Some of its leaders have sanctions. Third, it wants its assets unfrozen. There is some leverage. There are also investments. I do not think enough has been done to look into the investments of the Taliban leadership, and the way their children go to school abroad. There is more that can be done to put on pressure. It will not be easy to leverage change but we can detect what the Taliban want and start to take a carrot-and-stick approach on that.

I thank Mr. Bennett.

I thank all the witnesses for shining a light on this issue. I recall the time when Afghanistan was centre stage. We were talking about it and there were special programmes in the Department of foreign affairs in relation to emergency visas and so on. It then seemed to slip off the radar. I commend Senator Stephenson, who is not here, on highlighting this issue.

I will address two or three areas. The first is the recognition of gender apartheid specifically. I would appreciate it if we could hear a little more about the steps. The witnesses suggested Ireland might have a particular role in the preparatory process around. How do we distinguish gender apartheid from, say, the crime of apartheid, which has been looked at in relation to South Africa and some of Israel's actions? There is a need to explicitly name gender apartheid so that we are speaking to that offence.

I was very struck by the domestic violence piece. I knew the former parliamentarian and former deputy speaker of the parliament of Afghanistan, Ms Fawzia Koofi. I engaged with her a lot about two years ago. She worked hard to bring domestic violence laws through the parliament in the past. I ask the witnesses to comment a little more on that. I was very concerned by the idea that men can beat women as long as it is not visible, which seems to be trying to create a deniability that effectively legitimises violence in the home and ensures that, even within the Taliban's own codes, it can avoid the responsibility for having to act in the cases of violence because of that requirement on visibility. I ask the witnesses to comment specifically on that.

I am concerned about the large-scale return of Afghan refugees from Pakistan. Pakistan has a very large number of Afghan refugees. At one point, many people were transiting to Pakistan. There does not seem to have been an adequate response from European and other countries in terms of programmes that open routes, even family reunification routes, to refugees, particularly human rights defenders, women, those who are LGBT and others whom we have spoken about. It is as if the doors were briefly open and have now closed and a huge number of people seem to be trapped in Pakistan. Were 4,000 people returned just in the last couple of weeks? I ask the witnesses to comment on the need for proper, legitimate safe passage and programmes for those who are currently refugees in Pakistan and are in the very dangerous situation of potentially having to return. Family reunification is part of that.

I thank Senator Higgins for her questions. With regard to gender apartheid, we believe that the treatment of women by the Taliban is way more severe than just discrimination against and persecution of women because it is happening in the context of an institutionalised system of oppression and the perpetrators have the intent to maintain that domination. We believe that gender apartheid is parallel to racial apartheid because it has all the three elements of apartheid, in that it is happening in the context of an institutionalised regime of oppression; the treatment of women by the Taliban is inhuman; and the Taliban has the intention to maintain its repression. We believe the definition of persecution set out in Article 7 of the Rome Statute does not capture the gravity of the treatment of women by the Taliban and it should be codified as a-----

It should be a named crime.

-----separate crime, which is gender apartheid. As I mentioned, it is way more severe.

Ms Faiz suggested Ireland might have a role in having that crime recognised.

Yes. We would like Ireland to take a leading role and support the inclusion of gender apartheid in Article 2 of the draft convention on the prevention and punishment of crimes against humanity, which, as the committee will be aware, is under consideration by the United Nations. As Mr. Bennett mentioned, it is a long road. The final decision on the treaty will be made by 2029, but we still have enough time to push the UN member states to support the inclusion of gender apartheid as a stand-alone crime against humanity.

I thank Ms Faiz.

The return of the refugees is not only from Pakistan; it is from Iran as well. One one day, up to 6,000 refugees were deported to Afghanistan.

Afghanistan is currently grappling with an economic crisis, with the result that 21 million Afghans are in need of assistance. The Taliban is more interested in how it should forcibly control the people. Unfortunately, it does not have any kind of programme for creating jobs or helping those who return to Afghanistan.

On the other hand, given the Taliban's harsh treatment of women, minorities and other populations, it is very hard for the international community to engage with the Taliban. The situation is quite bad for those who return to Afghanistan from Pakistan. One must remember that some of them return after living in Iran or Pakistan for 30 or 40 years. When they go back there is nothing. They have no house, agricultural land or income.

There are reports that the governments of Pakistan and Iran confiscate the refugees' belongings. They do not give them back. They send them with empty hands back to Afghanistan and when they end up there, there is nothing in Afghanistan for them. The Taliban also does not have a proper programme for the returning refugees.

I was also asking about the response and what Ireland and other European countries should be doing. I saw that Mr. Bennett was indicating.

For example, some human rights defenders made it out but others did not, including those who were there for perhaps 20 or 30 years as vocal critics of the Taliban in Pakistan, and others who are now facing return. Is there a need for a significant programmatic intervention as support for Iraq in terms of actions to put paths through to safety?

There needs to be a kind of multidimensional approach. Western countries can take more. There are Afghans who need family reunification who are not safe in Pakistan or Iran because they have been human rights defenders, journalists, etc. There is no way that the millions of Afghans who are living in Iran and Pakistan can all be brought to Europe. Yes, open the pathways and provide more support to organisations like Front Line Defenders.

I was in Pakistan less than two months ago. I met a lot of Afghans, but I also met the Government of Pakistan. I think the point that it makes is that Pakistan has hosted millions of Afghans for a long time and have had very little support from the international community while doing so. Promises were made by some countries in 2021 telling Pakistan to just host these people for a few months and those countries would take care of them, but they have not delivered. There is a responsibility on all sides. There needs to be more truly shared responsibility.

What can Ireland do? No one seems to be really taking this seriously. There needs to be much more diplomacy. What about having an international conference on this issue? We hear the number of 4,000 a day, which is terrible, but if we look at it over a year, that was some 2.7 million Afghans returned from Pakistan last year, most of them involuntarily. I met some of them. I have met Afghans in Pakistan who have been there for four years but I have also met some who have been there for 45 years who are at risk of return because they do not have proper legal status. This is a really big issue. Maybe Ireland could take a lead on it. Immigration has been huge issue for Ireland for donkey's years.

I do not want to let go of the point the Senator made about domestic violence. It absolutely needs to be condemned, while also noting that men are being forced to control the female family members even if they do not want to. They are punished if their female family members "step out of line" in Taliban terms. There are very big concerns about the intrusion of the state into homes. Previous Afghan Governments have not been great on human rights, but this is an intrusion into the private lives of Afghans by agencies like the vice and virtue ministry going into homes and the state dictating in favour of violence. This is a regime that was not fighting for human rights, but to control the country to combat human rights, especially the rights of women and girls. It is almost unheard of.

We will have a brief second round.

I have a question for Mr. Faiz and Ms Faiz in relation to the countries, whether in the region or globally, that are potentially looking to normalise or destigmatise relations with the Taliban. Can the witnesses tell us more about who those countries are and where they are coming from? Perhaps Ms Faiz will also talk to us about the exclusion of girls from education. Are there parts of the country where that is happening less?

We clearly see and witness that our neighbouring countries such as Iran, Pakistan, India and Russia - we all know them - have all been engaging with the Taliban for the past years. Apart from those, there are some European countries that have been talking to and engaging with the Taliban's representatives. I am not sure if it is about the Afghan criminals who should be deported back to Afghanistan. We are still not sure if the topic is really about the criminals being deported back to Afghanistan or something else. We are just afraid and these engagements and these relationships should not continue. We are afraid that they may some day give a political recognition to the Taliban. As I mentioned, the Taliban is not a group that is able to rule the country. As we have witnessed, it has completely erased women from public life. Such a regime should come to an end.

We do not know exactly how many countries are in contact with the Taliban, apart from the countries that are neighbouring Afghanistan. We certainly know that there are countries in Europe that are sending back Afghan criminals. For returning back the Afghan criminals, they need to interact with the Taliban - for example, Germany has returned Afghans - because they need to convince the Taliban to accept these criminals. People from Switzerland have been returned to Afghanistan. Apparently, other European countries are also considering engaging with the Taliban in order to return criminals. The question is how do they convince the Taliban. Maybe they are giving the Taliban some sort of political benefit or something that we do not really understand. There are countries in Europe that are in contact with the Taliban, apparently because they want to return Afghan criminals.

The Deputy asked about girls in education and whether that is uniform or not. That is not uniform. In some urban cities, the girls schools are all underground. There are underground schools still operating. There are schools in the form of educational centres that also accept girls. In some urban cities, there are still a good number girls and women who somehow try to gain an education. In rural areas, though, where the majority of Afghan people live, they unfortunately do not have access.

I am very interested to hear our witnesses' comments on the role, or lack thereof, that the US is playing. The US has been very giving financially, giving billions of dollars to Afghanistan, but has it got a coherent policy for where we are going? As we stressed earlier, we see these new laws coming out that are absolutely historic and shambolic. Will Mr. Bennett come in first on this?

I have been to the US recently. I have met with the US. I have also met with the representatives who are Afghanistan-based in Doha. I was there not so long ago. The US is still considering and reviewing its policy on Afghanistan. It has been doing that now for at least a year or, I think, more.

The US makes two points. One is that its primary concern is about what it calls hostages, that is, American citizens who are held in detention by the Taliban. It says it will not do anything with regard to Afghanistan until those people, those hostages, are released. There are not many of them left but there are a few. The other is counterterrorism. It is very concerned about the issue of Afghanistan hosting terrorist groups beyond the Taliban, whether it is the Islamic State, al-Qaeda or others, within the borders of Afghanistan, causing a threat to other countries, including US security interests. This is all the US has been setting out recently.

Third, at the Security Council last month there was a debate about the extension of the mandate of UNAMA, the UN mission in Afghanistan, which is normally extended year by year and this time was extended only for three months, at the request of the US. That was pretty clear. The US wanted a review or some kind of different approach from UNAMA. Other than that, however, there is not much.

I will add something to Mr. Faiz's point. It is not just that some European countries want to deport Afghan criminals; it is all failed asylum seekers. A letter was written by around 20 European countries - I do not think it included Ireland - to the European External Action Service and, I think, the European Council some months ago, around October. Those discussions have been ongoing to try to get a co-ordinated approach to deportations to Afghanistan of those who have no legal right to stay in the EU or European countries. There was a report yesterday in the media from Agence France-Presse, "EU to host Taliban officials for talks on deporting Afghans". I do not know that this is accurate but it is being reported. The first line is:

Taliban officials are excepted in Brussels in the coming weeks for talks on deporting Afghans from the EU to ... [the host] country, sources told AFP.

This kind of normalisation, if that is what we call it, is continuing even further.

I call Senator Higgins.

I will be brief. To follow on from that, do the witnesses believe, in terms of returns, that Afghanistan should not be regarded as a safe country for effectively any woman right now and that the principle of non-refoulement should apply? We should surely not be seeing any woman being sent to Afghanistan currently, even if the formal process may have failed in relation to migration.

Certain countries in Europe - Scandinavian, mainly, and a couple of others - have already declared policies that any Afghan woman on their territory will be granted asylum. I do not know if Ireland has such a policy but there are already some countries that have adopted that policy. In my view, it does not go quite far enough. It is good, of course, but it does not provide a safe pathway to the country; it simply says that if a woman gets here and claims asylum, she will not need to go through a lengthy process but will be granted asylum. It would be interesting to study how those declarations, those policies, are working in practice but, certainly, I suggest that Ireland looks into that.

As I said, it is very sad to come from a point where there was a parliamentary system of sorts in Afghanistan, both genders and multi-ethnic. Mr. Faiz said 90% of those positions are now held by one ethnic group, effectively. Is that creating an imbalance in the power? How robust is the power of the Taliban, politically speaking, across Afghanistan at the moment, particularly leaving aside the issue of gender, but given that very substantive ethnic minorities are effectively without a route to political expression or power in some cases?

An NGO that has been years based in the Middle East, I think, said there are 1,150 or something top officials of the Taliban and 90% of them belong to one ethnic group. There are no single women. There is no parliament in Afghanistan. The Taliban is ruling by force. There is no such thing as talking politically. The only language the Taliban understands is the language of military and gun. Other than that, it does not understand anything.

But is the underlying support the Taliban may have being eroded from those who may not have come at it from the gender perspective originally but who are coming at it from these others? How firm is the base or the grip the Taliban has?

Not all the people, including those from an ethnic Pashtun background, like the Taliban. It does not have a base in people, really, but it rules by force, by gun.

Sure.

Could I perhaps come in here with a slightly-----

Very briefly, please.

If I may, I want to add to that.

Very briefly, please.

Yes. Certainly, ethnicity and religion, together with gender, are the key issues. Ruling by force will take the Taliban only so far. I was talking to an Afghan academic who noted that the Taliban is using, for example, public information, radio and the media to change minds because it knows that in the long term it needs to build support beyond using force. That, in a way, is equally concerning.

That is the education point again, as made by Mr. Faiz.

There is a lot of food for thought there, and if we can assist in any way as parliamentarians, we will do so. All three speakers raised a number of issues, as did some of our witnesses, as to what Ireland can do, may not be doing and could improve on, and those points were well made. In terms of front-line defenders, if the witnesses feel that asking parliamentary questions of the relevant Ministers would help us, that is our way of eliciting information, certainly initial information, shaking the tree to see exactly what we are doing here. We got quite an extensive briefing document in advance of this from our Department of foreign affairs, and the witnesses have highlighted maybe some gaps, but it would seem that there are at least some activities that they are maybe not aware of that we are engaged in.

I thank the witnesses for the granular detail and the quality of the evidence they gave before the committee. As Chair of the committee, I was absolutely unaware of the scale of the mistreatment of girls and women. I also want to add to what Senator Higgins said in complimenting our colleague, Senator Patricia Stephenson. To the best of my knowledge, from memory, it was at her suggestion that we dealt with this topic here, so the witnesses have strong allies here who realised that this needed to be brought to the attention of the wider parliamentary family.

That has been done pretty effectively today. There is a list of questions that colleagues and I want to ask those in ministerial office to see exactly what we are doing. When those questions are submitted, they are always available on the public record. If there are questions the witnesses want us to ask, we are available and googleable. They have our details and we are happy to follow up on that.

It is indeed a very strange world. The introduction to the committee of the notion of gender apartheid is very useful. We appreciate deliberations on such matters take time because they involve making weighty decisions. They are not frivolous matters; they are serious and weighty matters. I was briefly a volunteer when the Ukraine war broke out and I remember a small wave, by comparison, of Afghan refugees coming and being processed at the same time. In a world full of crises, this has fallen way down. The witnesses have helped to raise its profile to some degree here.

Richard, you are very articulate. We wish you the very best and hope the staff you are awaiting come to you sooner rather than later. If there is anything we can do in relation to the UN, do not hesitate to inform us, or if you need assistance.

To Mahbooba and Hassan, we are really grateful for your time and how you have enlightened the committee and helped to inform our work going forward. Thank you for giving your time to us.

The officials of the committee and our sound and communications people made it all happen. Where are you coming to us from, Richard, as a matter of interest?

Copenhagen.

Okay. Thanks to everybody who made that line stable. We did not lose any of your words and it was a very effective presentation. Thank you again.

Thank you for the opportunity.

You are welcome.