The purpose of today's meeting is to discuss the strategic role played by Gas Networks Ireland and ESB Networks in delivering our national energy infrastructure. I am pleased to welcome from Gas Networks Ireland Mr. Ronan Galwey, acting CEO, Mr. Bobby Gleeson, chief operations officer, and Mr. Brian Sheehan, director of assets and infrastructure. From ESB Networks I welcome Mr. Nicholas Tarrant, managing director, Mr. John O'Connor, head of programme delivery, and Ms Martina Kenny, senior manager responsible for the transmission system programme.

I must give a note on privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise nor make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

I remind members they will be afforded a six-minute speaking slot for questions and answers, with a second chance to contribute if they so wish.

I invite Mr. Galwey to make his opening statement.

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members for the invitation to appear before them today. My colleagues and I welcome the opportunity to outline our experiences and future plans in relation to infrastructure delivery. At Gas Networks Ireland, our role is to operate, maintain and develop the national gas network. We do not buy or sell gas. We ensure the safe and reliable transportation of gas on behalf of energy suppliers. Our current and planned infrastructure projects are focused on maintaining and developing our network, enhancing energy security and decarbonising our operations.

Established in 1976, GNI has a long history of infrastructure delivery. In the 1980s, following the discovery of gas off the coast of Kinsale, the Cork-Dublin pipeline was constructed. In 1993 and 2002, we completed the delivery of two subsea pipelines linking Ireland to the UK gas network in Scotland. In the early 2000s, we extended the transmission network by connecting Dublin, Limerick, Galway and the Corrib entry point at Bellanaboy in County Mayo. At this time also, the North-South pipeline linking Dublin and Belfast and the north-west pipeline linking Belfast and Derry were also completed. In addition to these transmission pipeline investments, we have built out an extensive distribution network as well as critical supporting infrastructure to manage and regulate gas pressures and flows across the network.

Over the past five decades, the gas network has grown to become one of Ireland’s most relied upon and economically important national assets. It has grown hand in hand with our economy and has played, and continues to play, a significant role facilitating and supporting economic activity in our country. The gas network is the biggest supplier of energy to industry and power generation in Ireland. It transports 30% of Ireland’s total primary energy, including 40% of all heat, while 41% of electricity used in Ireland is generated from gas supplied by the network. Our transmission network is resilient and flexible. I am proud to say the gas network has an excellent track record of 100% availability. This was borne out recently during the severe storms when our network remained fully available for customers. The network can also be used to ramp up energy supply when needed, particularly during severe weather or when wind and solar output drops. On certain days this year, the gas network was used to supply as much as 76% of the electricity demand of the country.

In terms of size and scale, Ireland’s gas network is nearly 15,000 km in length, has more than 720,000 customers and is one of the most modern gas networks in Europe. This was demonstrated recently following the completion of network-wide emissions surveys that confirmed methane emissions from our network are substantially lower than those from peer European networks. Our two subsea pipelines supply approximately 80% of our gas flows, with the remaining 20% coming from the Corrib gas field and a small but growing quantity of biomethane. A map of our network can be seen in the pack issued to the committee in advance of the meeting.

We publish our network development plan annually. This document sets out our ten-year gas demand and supply projections. It allows us to assess the network's capacity to meet the projected peak day demand requirements over the coming ten years. The plan is also very important as it outlines the development needs of the gas network over the same period. As we look to the future, our core focus is on maintaining and strengthening the security of energy supply as well as facilitating and supporting the energy transition. In relation to energy security, Ireland is an outlier among EU member states in that it does not have gas storage facilities or a diversity of entry points. The Government has identified this as an unacceptable risk and in March 2025 approved the development of a State-led strategic gas emergency reserve to advance Ireland’s energy security. GNI has been mandated to develop, own and operate this facility, which will include a floating storage regasification unit. GNI is also progressing several other critical infrastructure projects to increase the resilience and security of our gas network and its supporting infrastructure.

We recognise climate change is a very serious issue and we are determined to play our part in facilitating and supporting the energy transition. We have two broad categories of capital programmes planned in this regard. First, we will continue to provide gas connections to new, flexible, gas-fired power generators. This will help meet growing electricity demand and provide support and backup to the ongoing roll-out of renewable electricity generation capacity. In the coming weeks, we will have completed eight of the 13 contracted new power connections and we are progressing our work at pace on the remainder. Second, we have plans to decarbonise our network and our operations. We will do this by transitioning from transporting natural gas to transporting 100% renewable gases, namely, biomethane and green hydrogen, over time and also by electrifying our compressor stations in Scotland.

Ireland's National Biomethane Strategy, published in 2024, sets out a target of 5.7 TWh of biomethane, which is roughly 10% of Ireland's natural gas volumes, by 2030. We welcomed the publication of this strategy and I am pleased to say we are in the process of connecting a number of new biomethane plants to the network. The construction of a new central grid injection entry point in Mitchelstown is also under way. This will be operational in 2026.

GNI is an A-rated regulated utility. This allows us to raise funds independently on the capital markets to fund our capital programmes. In 2025, we are forecast to deliver a €212 million capital expenditure programme and over the next five years we have a €1.3 billion capital expenditure plan in place. This plan is made up of €700 million relating to maintenance, protection, refurbishment and the advancement of resilience and security of supply on our network, and €600 million relating to the provision of new connections to the network, principally power generation and biomethane, and our decarbonisation work programme.

We are generally progressing well on capital delivery. However, we do face some challenges. For the larger pipeline projects, we have dual consenting processes, which leads to a duplication of effort and adds to project timelines and costs. The availability of key skills, materials and resourcing is another challenge as we look forward given the scale of planned infrastructure development nationally. Given our growing population and increased levels of development, accessing and developing services, particularly in urban areas, is becoming ever more challenging. Significant levels of planning and co-ordination with other utilities, service providers and local authorities are required to avoid delays and disruption.

We are very proud of the important role our network plays in the provision of safe and reliable energy supplies to power generators, businesses and homes in Ireland. We are also looking forward to playing our part in supporting the energy transition and decarbonising our network for future generations. We believe the investments we are planning are important and necessary. We have a proven record of delivery and we will continue to work with our shareholder, regulator and other key stakeholders in the delivery of our planned investment programme.

We look forward to sharing our experiences further with the committee. I thank the members for the opportunity and look forward to their questions.

I thank Mr. Galwey. Now we will have Mr. Tarrant's opening statement on behalf of ESB Networks.

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members for the invitation to attend. My name is Nicholas Tarrant and I managing director of ESB Networks. I am joined by my colleagues John O'Connor, head of programme delivery, and Martina Kenny, our senior manager responsible for the transmission system programme. We welcome the opportunity to discuss Ireland's electricity network and the role it plays in enabling core elements of the NDP.

ESB Networks is part of ESB Group, a commercial semi-State company that is overseen by an independent regulator, namely the Commission for the Regulation of Utilities. ESB Networks works to meet the needs of all 2.5 million Irish electricity customers connected to its network. ESB Networks neither generates nor sells electricity. In our role as distribution system operator and asset owner, we design, build, own, operate and maintain the electricity distribution network. We work closely with EirGrid, the transmission system operator, which operates the transmission network and brings forward new transmission system projects. As transmission asset owner, ESB Networks designs, builds and maintains the onshore electricity transmission network. There are approximately 190,000 km of electricity network across Ireland. In 2024, ESB Networks invested over €1.1 billion of capital across all areas of our business, including transmission, distribution, smart metering and new connections.

The electricity network is key national infrastructure. We are now in a new phase of investment with a large programme of projects required to grow the capacity and resilience of the electricity transmission and distribution networks. These are required to meet the objectives of Delivering Homes, Building Communities and the climate action plan and to deliver the objectives set out in the NDP. I will now give some examples of why this investment in electricity network is so critical for our shared future.

The Delivering Homes, Building Communities action plan on housing requires 300,000 new homes to be delivered before the end of 2030. These homes will require new electrical infrastructure to be delivered at pace. In addition, electrification of heat and transport means that the electricity connection design for new houses with heat pumps and current or future electric vehicles, EVs, is now more than double that of the electricity connection design prior to 2020. This means that additional investment is needed at every voltage level, from low voltage connecting to apartments and houses right up to the high voltage electricity system.

Electricity network infrastructure is essential to support the electrification of transport. The large projects contained in the NDP, such as Metrolink, DART+, the extension of the Luas and the transition of the bus fleet to electricity, cannot happen without reliable new electrical infrastructure. In addition, the expansion of public EV charging facilities, the wider electrification of the rail system, electrification of the port facilities and the expansion of Dublin airport cannot be delivered without parallel investment in the electricity network.

A growing economy means further network capacity for new and expanding businesses, both indigenous and those that have established operations here on the basis of foreign direct investment. Many companies are also seeking to decarbonise their processes, which is going to result in further demands on electricity network capacity over the years ahead. Continued growth in renewable electricity connections requires new infrastructure at both the electricity transmission level and on the distribution network as we work towards the 17 GW renewable electricity target set out in the climate action plan.

ESB Networks Price Review 6 Business Plan, published in November 2024, covers the period 2026 to 2030. This business plan sets out a baseline investment of €10.1 billion and a high investment case of €13.4 billion over the period. It is currently being assessed by the Commission for Regulation of Utilities. A final determination is expected in December. ESB Networks expects that a sustained high level of investment will be required not only during the price review, PR, 6 period but also throughout the 2030s as the transformation of our energy system continues.

We welcome the announcement by our majority shareholder, the Government of Ireland, of an equity investment of €1.5 billion to support ESB Networks' plans to deliver up to €13.4 billion of capital expenditure during the PR6 period covering 2026 to 2030. This equity investment will create value for the Government as shareholder. It will also benefit the economy and customers into the future. It will sustain the resilience of ESB's balance sheet and credit metrics and maintain the confidence of international investors regarding ESB and its PR6 capital expenditure programme. This will be particularly important as ESB looks to raise significant additional funds in the international capital markets to fund the capital expenditure programme over the coming years.

We have made many changes to the organisation as we have grown our delivery capability over the past five years. We have hired over 1,000 people since 2022 and extended our contracting base very considerably to support our growing programme of work. We are continuing to navigate supply chain risks and find scarce material in a global market in circumstances where many countries are investing in their electricity infrastructure at an unprecedented level.

ESB Networks is represented on the accelerating infrastructure task force, the housing activation office and the accelerating renewable energy task force, which are all focused on removing barriers and increasing the speed of delivery. We support this work, which has the potential to make a meaningful and sustained difference at a time of critical need for Ireland's future.

The requirement to address the needs of housing, the wider NDP, a growing economy and delivering on Ireland's climate action plan will necessitate a major and sustained investment in the electricity network. There is a need to make major progress during 2026 and in every year out to 2030, and beyond that into the next decade. ESB Networks is committed to playing its part and looks forward to delivering this ambitious programme over the years ahead. We wish to extend an invitation to the committee to visit one of our major project construction sites during 2026 to get a sense of these projects and the work involved in delivering them.

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members. That is the end of our introductory statement. I am happy to take any questions from the committee.

I thank Mr. Tarrant. A number of members have indicated. As I said, there are six-minute slots. These are to include questions and answers. Members have indicated in the following order, namely Deputies Tóibín, O'Hara and Clendennen, Senator Flynn, and Deputies Neville and Cronin.

Gabhaim míle buíochas dóibh as an cur i láthair agus an obair atá á dhéanamh acu le haghaidh an tír freisin. We have only got six minutes. We can try and keep the questions and answers as succinct as possible.

The first question I have for ESB Networks is in relation to a project in my area, the North-South interconnector. I understand that the ESB is the group that is liaising with the councils on the North-South interconnector instead of EirGrid, even though the latter is the contracting company. Why is that?

In terms of the two roles of the two organisations, EirGrid brings forward the new projects for the transmission system. It brings them through the consenting process and they are then handed over to ESB Networks at a particular point. We work closely with EirGrid on projects, and we have been working closely for many years with EirGrid on the North-South interconnector. Because ESB Networks will be delivering the project in the context of construction, we liaise with the councils on what are referred to as the discharge of the planning conditions and the construction environmental management plan. We have been doing that over the recent period across the three council areas.

In relation to prices, I imagine that what ESB Networks does only has an effect on the wholesale price. In this country, the ESB Group made €836 million profit in 2023. We are told that the gap between the wholesale price and the retail price of electricity is higher here than in pretty much all other European countries. Why is that, given that we are in the grips of a cost-of-living crisis?

Maybe, first, I will explain ESB Networks' role, particularly as it is important to establish a context for answering the Deputy's question around pricing. As a general point, we know that every euro counts for every customer, especially when you look at the customers who are in arrears and the impact that prices have on customers.

ESB Networks is regulated by the CRU. Where we impact on the end-user price of electricity is, first, on the distribution system. To give the Deputy an idea of what is involved, if you take a typical domestic customer bill being somewhere in the range of €1,800 to €1,900 per annum, at the time of our business plan submission in November 2024, we estimated that approximately €250 of that related to the maintenance and capital investment programme for the distribution network. There is an additional cost for the transmission network, which is made up of the cost associated with running EirGrid, the market around that and, also, its investment programme. We estimate that there will be an increase in the cost associated with this major programme under PR6.

We have included estimates of that in our business plan that we published. If you take the broad picture around energy prices, about 60% of energy prices that affect end-user customers is made up of the wholesale price associated with the buying of gas by generators, for example and the capacity market. Then there is a number of other charges.

Are there any homes in the State that are built but not connected at the moment? Are there any housing projects that are on hold as a result of a lack of connection to the grid?

If you look at the overall picture this year, we are expecting to increase the amount of new connections to the network compared to last year. We are up around 10% or 12% compared to last year. We are working actively across the country in connecting new homes. There are periods where we get new connections and it takes time to build the infrastructure necessary to make those connections. I cannot answer that every single home is connected right now and there is nobody waiting. This is a particularly busy time of year for us, where we are looking to get-----

Could Mr. Tarrant bring a figure to the committee on the amount of housing projects that are currently delayed as a result of a lack of electricity grid connection? I would like to get a picture. Uisce Éireann has a difficulty with gaps in its infrastructure. I want to see whether it is the same with the witnesses' organisations.

In general, we keep pace with the delivery of new housing. As a follow-up, we are happy to come back and give an update to the committee around our progress.

Grand.

In terms of renewable energy, I do not know what role the ESB plays in offshore wind currently. We have seven offshore wind turbines in Ireland in total, which is amazing. In 20 years, we have been talking about offshore wind and we have seven turbines. The Government has held more offshore wind conferences than we have actual turbines in Ireland. They are actually being decommissioned at the moment. Very soon, we will have no offshore wind generation. Why is that?

Coming back to ESB Networks' role, we are the transmission asset owner for the onshore transmission network. Our role when it comes to interfacing with offshore is to build the onshore infrastructure at a transmission level once those projects are brought forward by EirGrid. They become the connecting points for the offshore cables that will come onshore from those projects. Our role in ESB Networks does not extend to the offshore assets.

There is no blockage there from ESB Network's perspective.

It is not within our area of responsibility.

I do not have much time left, but GNI mentioned dual consenting being a difficulty in terms of infrastructural development. Is that right? Will Mr. Sheehan explain that to us?

We have a dual consenting process for pipelines over 20 km in length. That is a dual consenting process with An Coimisiún Pleanála, where we go under the strategic infrastructure delivery process and a process we run under section 39(1)(a) of the Gas Act with the CRU. Both of those are similar-type consenting processes, running in parallel but essentially do a lot of the same things. We could and would see efficiency in the process in terms of time to get to delivery if those two processes were condensed into one. We have taken some action on that, we have been interfacing with Departments and we have put that proposal forward. It is something that could deliver efficiency and time savings in terms of project delivery.

It does seem very strange. GNI never gave us a figure on the amount of biogas that is actually in the system today. How many digesters are actually feeding into the system today?

One facility is feeding in today.

Just the one.

Just one, but we are encouraged by the recent start. Three are under construction, which is really good, and will be delivered in quarter 1 of 2026. That will make four. We have five additional contracts signed where we will be constructing very soon.

It does seem very low. Going back to the offshore, I am here 14 years and there have been dozens and dozens of debates about biogas and digesters but there is currently only one adding to the system at the moment.

There is one currently, but a lot of energy and focus on that area recently has meant that new plants are coming on board.

What is the hold-up, if Mr. Galwey does not mind me asking?

There have been a number of hold-ups in terms of the availability of incentives for producers. That is probably the main one. The publication of the renewable heat obligation, RHO, recently has been a big help. That will be helpful to producers in the future. It will effectively require energy suppliers to buy a certain amount of biomethane in the future. That will be going across all heat to all customers in the future. That will be a help. Incentives are a big thing to get it off the ground.

I thank the witnesses for their time. Just before the meeting, we received a press release from Gas Networks Ireland stating that the strategic gas reserve unit and its accompanying facility would be located in County Clare. Will GNI provide an update on where that project is at in terms of the procurement of the unit and the budgeted cost of the reserve?

The Government tasked us in March 2025 to develop a strategic gas emergency reserve. We have been working on that for some time now. As the Deputy knows, we issued a press release today to announce our selected site, which follows a lengthy process of assessment around the entire Irish coastline. We are going to develop the project in Cahiracon in County Clare. That site selection allows us to move on with some critical tasks around the design of the project. We have a consent application with the Maritime Area Regulatory Authority at the moment to do some site investigation, both in the water and onshore, which will help inform the design. We are procuring a front-end engineering design, which will design the jetty infrastructure and pipeline route. We are also about to commence a procurement in the market around the vessel itself and assessing the options around building, buying or leasing a vessel and what the most appropriate route is.

Since we are getting into those tender processes at the moment, the costing around the project is quite commercially sensitive. Putting a price out in the public domain can give almost a guide to the market of the ceiling of cost that they could be bidding. My preference would be to not speak about costs at this time.

On the cost, do we have any indication of whether that will be covered through Exchequer funding or is it going to be passed onto people through their household bills?

The Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment has set up a working group with us, the CRU and other stakeholders. We will be considering exactly that question during 2026 to examine the appropriate route for cost recovery.

Does GNI have a view on that?

There are a number of options. There is an option to create or regulate an asset base similar to the model we have for the pipeline network at the moment. There would be a model around a public service obligation. Ultimately, the cost distribution and the revenue requirement to recover the cost would end up being similar. They are two options that would work.

Would Mr. Gleeson agree, given rising costs, particularly in terms of energy but right across the board, that it would place a significant burden on households if this cost was added on to household bills?

We are acutely aware that Irish energy customers are struggling with energy costs. It is an absolute focus of the project to make the cost of the project as small as possible. That was a key consideration in our site selection and in our approach to design and procurement activities.

It was mentioned in the statement that the lack of gas storage facilities was judged by the Government to be an unacceptable risk. Does GNI agree with this assessment? If so, when did it come to this opinion? Why was it left until this year?

We agree. We did a resilience study on the Irish energy system, in partnership with EirGrid, back in 2018. At that point, we recommended that Ireland needed a floating storage regasification unit. The Government did a review of energy security in Ireland to 2030, which concluded in 2023. At that point, it tasked GNI as the gas transmission system operator to independently assess the same questions. We made a submission in April 2024 to the Government that we should progress with a strategic gas emergency reserve. We got the go-ahead to do that in March 2025.

I thank Mr. Gleeson.

I want to move on to the ESB and grid resilience. In the last year alone, there have been a number of storms that have had a significant impact, particularly in the west of Ireland, where I am from. A lot of people and households lost their electricity connection for significant periods.

Obviously, the main example of that is Storm Éowyn when over 700,000 customers lost power, particularly in the west and north west. I note that ESB Networks has published and is implementing a grid resilience plan for this winter. I ask for a quick update on the work that has been done to date on this, particularly in counties in the west.

We were here a couple of weeks ago briefing the committees and answering questions about the publication of our storm review report. This is up on our website and contains a detailed review of Storm Éowyn and what happened, the cause of some of the damage and the associated recommendations. As the Deputy mentioned, we are also implementing a winter plan. I will give the committee an idea of some of the ongoing work. In October, we published an update on our website that details the work ongoing in that area and it is concentrated in the west and north west, focusing on the ten counties most impacted by Storm Éowyn.

I will give an outline of what has been involved in doing that work. Our transmission network and the 38kV network are high voltage. We have surveyed all of these with helicopters and identified any defects, with work ongoing to correct those. Our medium voltage network is a very important network for feeding customers out in rural areas before the network gets down to low voltage that feeds into individual homes and businesses. We have surveyed over 10,000 km of the network using drone technology. We have identified defects and we are currently working through those.

We have also brought in emergency timber cutters to target particular areas in the network where there are damaged or diseased trees. I think we have identified in the region of 2,000 trees that we are working through. Forestry was a particular area of concern during the storm. Extensive work was required to go in and first cut into forestry, to be able to conduct the repairs that our crews needed to do. At the time of the storm, we had something like 50 forestry harvesters involved in that restoration effort. The issue of forestry and forestry corridors is a key area. We are working with our Department on that to bring forward new legislation. In that area we are also working through about 700 sites that we identified where we want to bring in harvesters and do some clearance work to make the network more reliable.

It is important to say that while we are making progress on this programme of work, we are really talking about a multi-year programme to address the issue over time.

On that, if a storm of the same magnitude were to occur in the next few weeks, how confident is Mr. Tarrant that we would not see a repeat of what we had last year during Storm Éowyn, or is the ESB not far enough along in its processes for him to answer?

There is a number of things with this. Longer term solutions need to be put in place to make the network more resilient. In our total network, we have 160,000 km of overhead network and that is exposed to the elements. If we were hit with another very severe storm, there is likely to be very significant damage. Even though we are working to address the issues and make the network more resilient, it is an overhead network and does have that level of exposure and risk, but we are working to reduce that. However, if we are struck by similar or even greater winds this coming winter, there is likely to be significant damage. We are working on our winter plan and looking to address it, but it is a multi-year programme. What is key is the forestry corridor legislation that is going to be brought forward to have this addressed, both for future forestry and existing forestry.

Deputy O'Hara will have another opportunity to contribute. I call Deputy Clendennen.

I thought Senator Flynn was next.

No, the Deputy can go next.

I was thinking ladies first. My first question is fresh in my head. I met a community group during the week that wants to proceed with an anaerobic digester. It just has the small barrier of the sum of €500,000 to prepare for a planning application. How do we unlock this challenge?

Any supports that can be made available to groups like that would be welcome. I appreciate that is a significant cost for the group the Deputy mentioned. Capital grants are available from the Department for anaerobic digestion facilities and the construction of same. That fund has been created and I understand from the Minister that it will be added to next year. That is one scheme that is open and available to the group in question.

I mentioned the renewable heat obligation which has been published. This is an important piece that is going to come in the summer of next year. As I said, it will require in future that biomethane be part of the supply of energy to all energy users in relation to heat. I think that is good. There are facilities out there for groups like the one mentioned in terms of a desire to invest in this area. Those are the kinds of things the group the Deputy mentioned should be thinking about.

Is there any concern about saturation? We currently have a handful, or even less, of anaerobic digesters. If we were to saturate the country, does Mr. Galwey see the raw material increasing and it then ending up being counterproductive? How do we manage the volume of anaerobic digesters over time?

Over time, we certainly need to think about that but, for the moment, we are starting from a very small base and that should be appreciated. We have been doing a lot of work over the last number of years to try to encourage investment in this area. I referred earlier to the fact that we have a number of contracts signed and a number of construction projects under way. The national target for 2030 is 5.7 TWh, so if we take the eight contracted sites we have at the moment, plus our Mitchelstown site, we are going to get close to 1 TW, which is 20% of the target. There is a long way to go to getting up to that number. However, certainly in the longer term, we think there is lots of potential in Ireland for biomethane.

It seems there are many initial barriers to getting moving. That is the challenge. I thank Mr. Galwey.

My next question is for the ESB representatives. The ESB is the stakeholder for the energy sector on the infrastructure task force. How often do the witnesses meet all of the stakeholders in the energy sector?

To clarify, there is also a representative from EirGrid on the working group in the accelerating infrastructure task force, maybe not on the task force itself. I am probably the member from ESB Networks. Maybe the Deputy can correct me if I am not answering the question correctly, but if he is asking about meeting the energy sector in general, there is an energy security group chaired by our Department. All the relevant bodies from the energy sector, including colleagues from Gas Networks Ireland, are on that. This meets on a regular basis, probably every couple of months or quarterly.

It would be a co-ordinated approach within the sector with all the stakeholders involved. Is that correct?

Yes, and particularly for us and EirGrid, which is a very important one. We work very closely with EirGrid and we have regular meetings regarding the co-ordination of the ESB's role as transmission asset owner and in distribution and EirGrid's role as transmission system operator, so that is a very close relationship. Then, as needed, we work closely with the likes of Gas Networks Ireland and the various Departments, including the Department of Transport. As I mentioned in our opening statement, we also liaise with the housing activation office that is now up and running.

The pipeline from the mid-west that is to supply water to Dublin is essentially a utilities corridor, which Irish Water wants to use. Has there been any discussion of putting in more than just one duct for water and using that route as a national utilities corridor once it is open? Have there been any discussions on this and is it a viable idea?

I have not been involved personally in any discussion about the route of the water project into Dublin. However, there have been examples of where we have been able to work as part of multi-agency projects to use the opportunity to put in, for example, cable ducts in particular circumstances. For example, in the new roadway in Drogheda, which provides port access, ducts were put in. Also, on some of the greenway projects in Dublin, we have been able to work with the local authorities to put in cable ducts for future projects.

There is a lot of talk of the billions being spent and the hundreds of thousands of houses we are going to develop. We can put this in hard facts, of 190,000 km of network, of which some 30,000 km are underground. What would the ESB have been developing in terms of new lines over, say, the last five years on an annual basis, versus what it will be doing over the next five?

We may have some statistics we can give about what has been delivered in the past five years that can be compared with the next five. However, on the scale of the projects that are coming, I will perhaps put it first in capital investment terms. The capital investment in the price review 5, PR5, period, which is coming to an end this December, was just north of €5 billion across all programmes. We are looking to get that number to as close to €13.4 billion as we can over the next few years.

We are constantly talking about money, but we need to talk about resources.

There is a defined list of projects on which we are engaged with the CRU. For example, as part of that there are 231 transmission projects, with a high-priority list of 29. There are 30 high-voltage substations at the distribution level. I might pass on to Mr. O'Connor and Ms Kenny to comment on that.

I am slightly caught for time and I have one more question. We are awaiting a policy from the CRU on large energy users. ESB Networks manages the grid and lines. Can Mr. Tarrant see any reason that this is constantly being delayed?

First, I will perhaps clarify roles. The transmission system is the responsibility------

ESB Networks will be the distributor of that energy.

Yes, but it is important to clarify this because of where the large users are connected. The majority of the extra-large energy users, like the data centres, are connected on the transmission network, so that is the responsibility of EirGrid. We have a substantial number connected on distribution as well. Ultimately, our role as a system operator is to follow directions from the CRU when it makes a decision. We are following the direction of the CRU that was published in late 2021. We have been engaging with it on the matter since then.

If the Cathaoirleach will allow it, perhaps other witnesses would like to come back in.

No.

Deputy Fleming is the Cathaoirleach, not Deputy Neville.

The Deputy can come back in later.

The witnesses can come back in. I only have-----

Senator Flynn.

If the Deputy wants to finish, that is okay.

On you go.

He can come back in later.

I thank both organisations for coming to the committee this evening. The cost of electricity and gas has gone through the roof for everyone. The witnesses will be aware that there is no support this year, like the grants or one-off payments we received in the past two years, for families, which helped families. My question is for ESB Networks. How does it build trust with ordinary people on the ground and give information to people? I will be frank. This infrastructure committee blows over the heads of many ordinary people. Many people, though not everyone, do not understand the importance of ESB Networks and Gas Networks Ireland for infrastructure. I am learning a lot from being on the committee and trying to deliver information to vulnerable communities. In the past few years, the one-off payments were given, but many members of families in the Traveller community still have not received them. It is no use crying over split milk. How can we move forward? How can ESB Networks and Gas Networks Ireland build meaningful trust and relationships with vulnerable communities?

ESB Networks's PR6 plan proposes massive capital expenditure, some of which is funded through international capital markets. How does ESB Networks balance this measure with public interest? What are ESB Networks and Gas Networks Ireland doing to deliver information to ordinary people on the ground and build trust with them?

A woman who came to me in recent months owes money to one of the electricity providers. She said she had signed up to a deal she did not want. Her husband was there and she felt under pressure. I remember doing some work on organisations being trained to recognise when there is domestic violence in a home or when a person is being put under pressure to sign up to a contract with the ESB or any gas network. Are the organisations doing anything with their salespeople on training in domestic violence, coercive control and how people can be controlled at home to sign up? I understand they are probably wondering what I am on about, but this woman came forward to me in recent months saying she felt pressure from a company to sign up. She should not have felt pressure, but she did and she came to me about it. What kind of training are the organisations doing in that regard?

I thank the Senator for the question. The scenario she outlined is a difficult situation and people should not be in that situation at all. However, I will go back to the role of ESB Networks versus suppliers. We do not sell electricity so we do not have people on the ground knocking on doors to sign people up to a particular supply company. We are a regulated business. We serve all 2.5 million customers. We do not have people out selling electricity. One of our roles as part of the energy transition is, for example, to support people with smart meters to understand their electricity use and try to help them to make choices about perhaps moving off-peak and so on. We are doing a lot on social media linking to customers and different groups to help people to better understand their electricity use.

On building infrastructure, which is relevant to today's meeting, we engage heavily with landowners and farmers when we are looking to build infrastructure on their land because that is a key relationship for us. I hope that as part of our engagement, because we are a community-based organisation, we interact with people in an appropriate way and keep the customer at the heart of what we do. That is one of the central pillars of our values and ethos as a company.

I will give a few thoughts on behalf of Gas Networks Ireland. First, on practical stuff, we do not bill customers either. We are similar to ESB Networks on the gas side. We are the network management company. If people are shopping around for a better deal on their gas and switching supplier, we make the switches, so a practical thing we do is to manage those quickly. If people get new deals, we change them over quickly and manage the change of supplier process on behalf of customers quickly. We also publish on our website energy saving tips, how people can save energy and how they can heat their homes and not use as much gas. There is also a moratorium in place on disconnections over the winter period. We adhere to that carefully. We also have pay-as-you-go meters and manage them carefully for customers.

Like our colleagues in ESB Networks, we appreciate the cost pressure generally that people are under in relation to energy. Those are some of the things we do on the ground.

I might add that an important role Gas Networks Ireland plays with customers is around public safety. We get in the region of 15,000 calls per year from customers who smell gas in our around their homes. Generally we get to those calls within 28 minutes. We have a charter with our regulator to do it within an hour. We get tremendously positive feedback from our customers in customer satisfaction scores. We have world-class customer service scores. In response to the Senator's initial question about building up trust, Gas Networks Ireland has a tremendous level of trust with our customers.

The Senator will be able to come back in again.

I would like to come back in to ask questions about rural communities.

Absolutely. Deputy Neville.

I thank the witnesses for taking the time to come here. I welcome the Murphys from Leixlip, Rebecca and Clara, who are here as a family. It is nice to have them. Aaron has been with me for the week on a transition year placement.

I would like to ask as many questions as possible so I ask the witnesses to keep their answers as brief as possible.

My first question is for ESB Networks. Where does EirGrid end and ESB start?

The first thing about EirGrid's role is that it operates the transmission system. On a dynamic basis, it manages the supply and demand on the network between what the total electricity demand is at a particular point in time and the generation required to meet that. It also brings forward new transmission projects. It initiates them and says that it needs a-----

They are physical projects.

Exactly. They are new transmission projects that are brought forward. I mentioned earlier that there are 231 transmission projects identified for PR6. Once they get through the consenting process, they are passed over to us for detailed design-----

ESB Networks builds them.

We build them.

EirGrid looks for them and ESB Networks builds them. It sets out what it needs and ESB Networks builds them.

Yes.

I know this might seem strange, but I might just ask the questions, and some of the answers might be in the questions too. EirGrid will set out what it needs and ESB Networks builds it on its behalf. EirGrid is not building anything physically itself. Is that correct?

It has a role in specific projects, for example, the Celtic interconnector.

I might come back to that in a second. If there is a lack of energy capacity in Ireland, which there is - in fairness, it is not just in Ireland but all of Europe - whose fault is that?

Will the Deputy clarify what he means by energy capacity?

Data centres. There are areas that are lacking power and some companies cannot open up in certain locations. We do not have to individually identify them, but it is because of the deficiencies in energy capacity. In fairness, people automatically say it is an issue with EirGrid. What is the problem there?

If we take the broader picture of security of supply, there are two dimensions to it. One is whether, on an ongoing basis, there is sufficient generation to meet security of supply and meet the needs of customers from a capacity point of view, so people can keep the lights on, there is power for businesses and so on. The second issue has to do with the capacity of the network infrastructure to carry power.

That is where I am coming from. I know I am jumping into the middle of what Mr. Tarrant is saying but I want to understand this. Mr. Tarrant is saying that there is not enough energy flowing around, which is one issue, and the other issue is that the capacity is not there to carry the energy, if it is there. Is that fair?

I was trying to explain how there are two issues related to security of supply in general. If we look at the specifics, what we are seeing in the system at an overall level is very significant growth. What is driving that growth? There is the growth in data centres and large users, for example. There are the drivers behind the climate action plan, for example, the electrification of heat and transport, where we are seeing significant growth. I mentioned in our opening statement, for example, the growth in public transport projects around Dublin, such as MetroLink, Luas and so on. Then there are the demands of housing. The plan in PR6 sets out a range of projects, both at the transmission level and at distribution, to meet many needs, including one that we touched on in our opening statement, which is renewable connections.

Reference was made to the Celtic interconnector. That is with a French agency. Is it a dual project?

Yes, it is a dual project with the French transmission counterpart of EirGrid.

That is one physical project that it is involved in. Once it hits land, ESB Networks is involved.

Yes, we are involved. On the Celtic interconnector, I would mention that the transformers at the onshore substation in Cork are currently being installed. That is part of the scope around bringing the Celtic interconnector onshore and having the infrastructure there to take the power from that to be able to transmit it across the country.

That would be nuclear energy coming across from France, predominantly.

There is a lot of nuclear in France. I cannot say any more than that.

It is around 70%.

Yes, it is an interconnection with France. Interconnection for the country is good because it creates energy security.

I am all for it. I know they are looking for a second interconnector. I am positive about that.

I will move to Gas Networks Ireland. There is talk about the decarbonisation of transmission. What is the long-term strategy with Gas Networks Ireland? How can that evolve in the long term? We hear all of these things, but how is it possible? It is Gas Networks Ireland. We rely significantly on gas, and let us not pretend otherwise. I do not mean that Gas Networks Ireland does, but other people might. Some people say we should not.

We have a big reliance on natural gas today. In the future, our plans are to decarbonise that network.

How can that be done?

We have a very well invested network, which is underground. Basically, that network is capable of transporting gases other than natural gas.

Biomethane.

Biomethane is one example, and there is green hydrogen.

Does Mr. Galwey think Gas Networks Ireland can replace natural gas using those?

In the long term, yes. In the pack that we have supplied, there is a pathway for how we are going to evolve our network over the next 25 years. That pathway basically sees us replacing natural gas with biomethane and green hydrogen. They are two gases that can flow through our network in place of natural gas. That is a long-term strategy. We think it is a very important strategy for our company. As we said earlier, very genuinely, we are a very well invested company. If we were to put our network in the ground today, it might cost us four times the price. We are a well invested network. It is a modern network that can be used for future generation. It is the molecule that can go through the network to decarbonise it. It will take time to get there, but our focus is to get there.

I thank the witnesses for their presentations. My first question is for Gas Networks Ireland. Mr. Galwey mentioned the breakdown of gas flows and the growing quantity of biomethane. Recently, at the climate committee, we were going through the heads of the renewable heat obligation Bill. While I admire Mr. Galwey's ambition on getting our gas from biomethane, anaerobic digestion and so on, I felt that the ambition was not there in that Bill.

When we were talking about this at the climate committee, I said that we should be looking more to semi-State companies to invest in it as well. At the moment, we are reliant on private companies to meet our ambitions and targets. Any companies that are talking to me say they do not see the Bill as being ambitious enough. Bord na Móna is in the midlands and in areas of north Kildare. If we saw Bord na Móna, local farmer co-operatives and community groups getting involved, the Government would back this. Within Gas Networks Ireland's position as a semi-State company, it says it is obliged to enhance energy security and decarbonise its operations. I know it does not set policy. Does Mr. Galwey think there is something we could look at there?

I will bring it home to ourselves. We cannot build AD plants ourselves because of the third directive. We are the operator, the manager of the network, so we cannot do it. In relation to others who can, we would be very supportive of all groups attempting to get this industry off the ground. We are very keen that it gets off the ground as it helps the security of supply. It is a naturally produced molecule. Instead of it coming from Scotland in the form of natural gas, it can be generated locally.

It is important that it is produced locally and that there is no extra carbon.

Absolutely. We have been agitating for this. We have been supporters of it for a number of years. As I said earlier, we are beginning to see a lot of green shoots and a lot of action happening on the ground, which is very good.

In relation to the groups mentioned by the Deputy, that is very good, and I would have no objection whatsoever to that. It is just that we cannot do it ourselves, as the operator of the network. That is my point.

Mr. Galwey would be supportive of that, and of the Government giving more in grants.

If anybody wants to invest in AD plants and can do so, that would be great.

That Bill is coming back in the new year. Certainly, the feedback I was getting from private companies was that there would have to be more Government intervention.

I will move to ESB Networks. Again, I know it does not set policy. I want to raise the issue of the Herbata data centre in Naas Business Park in my constituency. It is an example of the doublespeak we are hearing from data companies.

The company said it was not going to draw electricity from the national grid but in the same sentence, more or less, it said that it would eventually will rely completely on renewables for energy. Both things cannot make sense at the same time. Data centres were consuming 22% of our electricity in 2024 and they are talking about that going up to 30% by 2030. The insatiable demand that AI has created is an absolute monster. ESB Networks' role is to make sure there is going to be electricity there for future infrastructure. Delivering Homes, Building Communities and the climate action plan were mentioned. How can we make both of those things meet?

If the Deputy goes back to our business plan that was submitted as part of PR6, it was to take policy as was set out at that time and put forward an investment plan on that basis. That is what we have done. We have an assumption in our business plan when it comes to the distribution network based on already contracted data centres that, as they take up the capacity, they will be using based on existing contracts. We have not made an allowance in our business plan for new data centres connected on the distribution network, for example.

The new substation in Castlebaggot was meant to be specifically ring-fenced for houses and the data centre applications have already swallowed up that capacity. Where are we? How are going to meet both?

With regard to us being a distribution system operator and EirGrid as a transmission system operator, we follow directions from the Commission for Regulation of Utilities. It has published a decision on that. Obviously, at a Government level, there is a twin policy around digitalisation as well as decarbonisation to support continued growth around this key area. If the Deputy takes the specific example of Castlebaggot, it was built at a time before the data centre direction came in, which was 2021. We operate on a first come, first served basis.

Does Mr. Tarrant think that is a good policy? I do not.

I would say as well that, in the case of Castlebaggot, it is a transmission station, so we would not have been involved in processing or dealing with those applications at that time.

When it comes to policy, what we are looking to do is connect all parties that we can because we are trying to promote and support the economy and continued growth around that. There is also the key issue of housing and, as we have mentioned, the climate action plan and the electrification of heat and transport. As a system operator, what we want to be able to do is connect as many connecting parties as possible and support the huge growth we have seen in our economy over the past decade.

I am out of time already. Our job is to make sure we can deliver on the national development plan. The Government's job is to make sure it can deliver on Delivering Homes, Building Communities. We cannot meet both needs at the moment. Does Mr. Tarrant believe the first come, first served policy works?

The first come, first served policy - "non-discrimination" is probably a better way of describing it - is one that is set at a European level.

Does Mr. Tarrant think we are going to be able to meet Delivering Homes, Building Communities?

We have set out an ambitious programme of investment over the years ahead. What we are seeing this year is an increase in the number of homes connected. If you look at the years coming up, we have made very significant progress this year in also identifying a range of interim capacity projects, as we are calling them. We have 83 of those projects where we have gone back to the CRU, as our regulator, and made our submission. In response to the draft determination, we put in that submission in September and we are looking for an additional €350 million to invest in targeted areas across the distribution network to support the continued connection of homes and businesses over the years ahead in advance of some of the bigger infrastructure being delivered.

Going back to the questions that came up earlier about the transmission infrastructure, particularly the big transmission infrastructure that is going to deliver new electricity capacity that will then flow into the distribution network, there are a series of bridging projects to be delivered to keep pace with what is required around housing and business connections. That is where our focus is. This year, we have actually placed some very large orders to get material to keep those projects moving at the pace they need to.

Did Deputy Clendennen want to come back in?

Yes. If Mr. Tarrant wants, I will afford him the opportunity to respond. I was rudely cut off, but anyway.

This goes back to the question of what was delivered in year 5.

The delivery.

Does Ms Kenny or Mr. O'Connor want to come in?

I did not mean by the Chair.

I know that.

In regard to PR5, I will talk about the transmission programme. As Mr. Tarrant has already pointed out, we construct and maintain the transmission system, so we deliver all the transmission projects. In the last price review, we delivered 118 capital infrastructure projects. They would be a selection of overhead lines, underground cables, marine cables and substations at all series of voltages. That is on the transmission system. We would also have delivered a lot of new technology. With the influx of renewables into the system, there is a need for new technology to reinforce the transmission system. We delivered three static synchronous compensators, STATCOMs. That was the first new technology we put on the system since we did capacitor banks and stuff back in the day. We did the synchronous condenser down at Moneypoint as well. There were also the four temporary emergency generators-----

Temporary emergency generators, TEGs.

Yes. Even though they involve generation, every piece of renewables generation requires the grid to be expanded to take the generation, and that includes TEG. We would have done all the infrastructure for the grid to take that generation as well. That is for PR5. Compare that, then, with what the plan is for PR6. The plan for PR6 is that, on the transmission system, there are 231 projects. About 106 of them are already in delivery. If you can imagine, these projects are quite large and very strategic. They are probably a selection of technologies. They would include overhead lines, underground cables, substations, marine cables-----

Is ESB Networks applying for planning permission for all aspects of that?

For the transmission system, that is EirGrid's responsibility as the transmission system operator, TSO. It deals with consent.

Okay. What about lines? Does ESB Networks have to apply for planning for a line?

On the transmission system, all planning consent is the responsibility of EirGrid.

Everything.

I will take it down to the distribution network. We apply for planning permission for new substations, for example, and new overhead lines above 20 kV. Any new overhead line at 38 kV or above needs planning permission. There are a good number of projects that need to go through the planning process across transmission and distribution in PR6, even though, as Ms Kenny mentioned, we have a good number as well. She might remind us how many we have in delivery. It is over 100.

For transmission, we have over 100 of the 231 projects already in delivery. What that means is consent is in place. On the rest of the projects that remain in the portfolio to be delivered and to move from EirGrid to ESB, as Mr. Tarrant described, there are between 50 and 60 that still require planning.

Do the witnesses see that planning process as an efficient process? ESB Networks obviously has conversations with EirGrid. It decides to go with planning and hand over to ESB Networks. Do the witnesses see delays? Is there anything we should be doing in that space? We have had previous debates in here about what is strategic or critical infrastructure and whether the process is resulting in delays in planning. Do the witnesses see change as necessary in that area?

There are things that can help us deliver at a faster pace. For example, one of the issues we have discussed as part of the accelerating infrastructure task force is our ability, at distribution level, to process our applications through the local authorities and not needing to go to An Coimisiún Pleanála under strategic infrastructure. That is an area we recommending as one that would improve the timelines-----

So Mr. Tarrant wants to go to the local authority.

Yes, because the timelines are shorter.

Okay.

There is obviously still the potential for appeal but, generally, what we find with our projects at substation level and the distribution network is that appeals are not that common. The larger projects at transmission level get more attention sometimes. These are local projects that enable more housing and business connections. It is a way to get them through the system faster and something we are currently discussing is whether that change could be made. There are also areas around exemptions on planning that would help us as well. We have also jointly made a submission, as part of the new planning legislation, with the other semi-States around areas where exemptions could be extended that would help the development, at this time, of critically needed infrastructure.

This is really about improving the pace of delivery because there is now this convergence onto the electricity network, which means we need to move much faster in getting infrastructure built. We need to jump many different hurdles. Improving the speed through planning would be an important addition to that overall position.

On anaerobic digestion and ownership, I gave an example earlier of potential community ownership. There are examples involving the local authorities. There is one in Kildare, which I think the local authority is involved in. What level should we look at? Should it be a mixed approach, the private market, semi-State agencies, local authorities or voluntary community groups? What is the best approach? What is done in other jurisdictions that we should follow?

From my experience, there is a mix in other jurisdictions. We visited Denmark last year and saw how its biomethane industry has developed. Farmer co-operatives are an important part of it over there. A group of farmers comes together with an anaerobic digestion plant located close by. The efficiencies in logistics, collections and dropping back of digestate work very well there. We have a very good climate here that suits the production of feedstock. We have good quantities of feedstock. We have very entrepreneurial farmers and farmer groups so there is good potential, for example, with the groups identified by Deputy Cronin. We are agitating for investment in this area through farmer co-operatives and other semi-State companies that want to get into this particular area, investors and people who bring experience from other countries as large biomethane operators. It is a mixture.

Why is it not materialising at the rate it should?

As I said earlier, the incentives and supports were not available all along. The capital investment programme is certainly a help as is the renewable heat obligation. Other countries have had feed-in tariffs and other operational supports. The general lack of support for a period meant it did not happen as quickly. I am definitely looking at this as glass half full. There are some green shoots. There is investment in this area currently. There are connections physically under construction by my colleagues and other contracts have been signed. We did a review and there is big potential for biomethane in the country. It is just about getting all the pieces together and getting it off the ground. I take the Deputy's point about pace. We have been agitating for a number of years to try to get it to move quicker. We do not set policy. We can just try to encourage and bring investors together and get interest in this area up. That is what we have been doing. We have been facilitating connections, of course. If there are connections, we promptly go through our processes internally and make sure those connections happen. That is our position.

What percentage of what Gas Networks Ireland transmits is for domestic versus non-domestic customers?

Currently, about 60% of what we transmit is for power generation, that is, electricity, with 30% for the industrial commercial sector and about 10% for domestic use.

Only 10%. Will Mr. Sheehan explain the 60%?

It is for generation of power on the electricity grid. We supply power plants for generation of electricity.

The majority of the work of Gas Networks Ireland is to produce electricity.

It is a big part in terms of our network and ensuring security of supply.

Has that changed much in the past ten years?

It has not changed significantly.

I have the same question for ESB Networks. What percentage of what ESB Networks transmits is domestic versus non-domestic?

I will have to check the numbers. I think it is about 9 TWh out of 24 TWh. I would have to look at it. If there are other questions, I might be able to check it as we are here.

I thought the first question anyone would ask is how much is domestic versus non-domestic. Mr. Tarrant said earlier that ESB Networks does not sell electricity but he also said some of the electricity from the company goes directly to data centres. Will he explain that? He made the point that some of the connections from ESB Networks, as a result of the CRU, are to data centres. Is that right? That is what I understood.

Our role is to connect new connecting parties to the network. If we go back to data centres or any other customer, particularly prior to 2021 before the data centre direction came in that set criteria for data centres getting connected, we entered into contracts with those connecting parties to connect them to the network. That is the physical connection to allow them to connect on. We do not sell the power to them that is used in those data centres. They would have a different arrangement in place with a supply company or, in some cases, they have corporate power purchase agreements or different arrangement in place.

Can they bypass EirGrid? Does EirGrid have a role if they go directly?

EirGrid has a role for many of the data centres connected because they are connected to the transmission network.

But ESB Networks is the transmission network.

We operate the distribution network. We own the transmission network.

Will Mr. Tarrant explain the difference for us between distribution and transmission?

If anybody looks to connect to the electricity transmission network, they have to apply to EirGrid for that connection. EirGrid then develops and brings forward new projects for the transmission system as well as operating it on day to day in managing the supply and demand balance. When it comes to new connections for the transmission network, if they go into construction, they are delivered in some cases by the ESB's transmission asset owner. It is back to the point that neither EirGrid or us sell electricity to data centres or any other customers.

Will Mr. Tarrant send us a note?

Is that on the roles and responsibilities?

Between transmission and distribution; I am lost.

I am happy to do that.

I thought they were similar but they are obviously not. Mr. Tarrant will send us a note on that. A lot of biomethane comes from green hydrogen. What is the plan? It was said it is 25 years out. How much will come from green hydrogen versus anaerobic gas works?

The target for biomethane is about 5.7 TWh. That is about 10% of the overall gas demand.

Is that now?

Now, currently. We think that is achievable and there is more potential to go two or three times beyond that in biomethane. We are hopeful of eventually having somewhere in the region of 10 TWh to 15 TWh of biomethane on our network, the balance being green hydrogen.

Electricity is needed to produce green hydrogen.

Yes.

Why is it not all the one? Electricity is need to produce-----

Strong linkages in offshore generation are planned.

Where does Gas Networks Ireland expect to get that volume of green hydrogen within the next ten years?

If you were take the two of them, biomethane is a here and now thing. Over the coming years, the hydrogen piece is a bit further out.

Where will Gas Networks Ireland get the materials for that biomethane?

Hydrogen eventually at mass will come from the construction of offshore renewable electricity generation.

That is at least 25 years away.

It is longer term. The excess power created from those investments will be stored in the form of hydrogen. That will then available for our network. It is a longer-term piece. Biomethane is here and now and hydrogen is longer term.

However, it is only producing 5% at the moment.

Biomethane is small at the moment. The plan is it will grow substantially.

Where will that raw material come from to make the biomethane?

Biomethane is from agricultural waste, grass-----

That is all there at the moment and being used. We are not going to treble the volume of agricultural waste and grass or whatever it is in the next 15 years.

That is a big step from 5% to 15%. It is triple the amount being used. There must be some very large amounts of material it is going to come by.

We completed a survey of the industry last year-----

Of which?

Of the biomethane industry, regarding supply.

Was that in Ireland?

It was in Ireland. We went out there and saw what capabilities there potentially are. The results of that indicate there are about 170 to 180 potential suppliers out there in the market.

What are the biggest types of material? Are people going to cut silage and put it into biomethane?

Well, it is across the piece. It is agricultural and industrial waste, but they see potential to supply gas onto the grid. When we put that together, there is potential to get to about 15 TW per year, if the majority of that is delivered. Linking back to Mr. Galwey's point, that is about 30% of our future gas demand.

Can the witnesses send us their graph with the projections for each? They are talking about 25 years out. Obviously, Gas Networks Ireland has information that is allowing it to achieve that over the period we are talking about, but it seems a big step from where we are. Is it wishful thinking? How real is it? It is a wish at present.

The biomethane part of it is very real and much of it is about repurposing or redirecting waste into anaerobic digestion. Rather than it going to landfill or putting slurry on fields, it would be put into anaerobic digestion.

There is a big reduction in what goes to landfill now. Nearly all of us have three bins now, between organic material, recycling material and landfill. The amount going to landfill must be dropping anyway.

It is dropping, but it is also about redirecting it to anaerobic digestion now, rather than putting slurry onto fields. There is also a lot of uncultivated in Ireland that could be repurposed to grow crops suitable for anaerobic digestion. It is about repurposing and redirecting.

What plant would be best in an agricultural setting?

Grass is excellent.

That is what I said. You cut the silage and put it into that. We are getting there and learning as we go along.

In that whole sphere, how much of the electricity being generated - the production of it, not the transmission or connections - will come from the private sector? I will ask the same question in respect of gas. The witnesses' organisations will not be producing it but, rather, distributing it. Will all the production necessary for gas come from the private sector? It is not Gas Networks Ireland anyway, is it?

In terms of production of electricity-----

No, in terms of the production of gas that Gas Networks Ireland will distribute.

It will not be us.

We will be 100% reliant on the private sector for all our gas.

We will not necessarily be entirely reliant on the private sector. For example, Uisce Éireann is one potential source of biomethane, from its sewage treatment plants. There are other industries out there, such as Bord na Móna and landfill sites, and stuff like that. There are various-----

There are some but they would be small. The witnesses must have some idea. We are here in infrastructure and looking beyond the next 12 months. Can the witnesses give us some indication of how they see that, and does that align with what Uisce Éireann, for example, would say? If it was here today, would it be saying it hopes in the next ten years to treble its output from the wastewater treatment plants into Gas Networks Ireland for biomethane? Is it saying the same thing?

I do not want to speak for Uisce Éireann, but I imagine it needs to consider whether it is best it uses that itself or whether it is put into the network. That is a consideration for Uisce Éireann.

Could it use it for itself?

It could use it for power generation, for example.

For Uisce Éireann.

Yes.

It might not come to Gas Networks Ireland at all.

It might not.

Mr. Gleeson is saying it might or might not happen, based on somebody else's decision.

It depends on the incentives available.

Do the witnesses see where I am coming from? I am hearing these wonderful targets for 25 years' time but I do not have any sense of how achievable they are. For all the gas, we are now hearing we will be reliant on people in the private sector thinking it is a good idea to supply Gas Networks Ireland.

It is not so much a case of being reliant on the private sector thinking it is a good idea. In the first instance, it is reliant on the incentive programmes put in place for people to invest in anaerobic digestion and, in turn, get that gas into the network.

The witnesses hear my train of thought, so they might come back with a note on how that will be achievable.

From the ESB side, is it much the same with the sources of electricity?

Yes. I might just go back to the Cathaoirleach's previous question to confirm the number again. I mentioned approximately 9 TWh of the total electricity - which is about 34 TWh - is residential demand. I can confirm that is the right number.

That is nearly 30%.

Yes, or just less than that. I might ask Mr. O'Connor to say something about how the market works from the point of view of new generators coming on. Again, we do not have a role in that as infrastructure, but Mr. O'Connor might say more about that.

To explain, it is really commercially driven and by the market. There are auction processes in place and in the private sector generally, but nobody is really precluded from bidding into that auction. The idea is to have competitive tension in those auctions to get the best result for the customer. However, as Mr. Tarrant said, in ESB Networks, we are not directly involved in the power generation business. The idea is that through the auction processes, as has been seen in the UK, it generally decreases the price of electricity for the future.

To summarise, it is generally through an auction process and bidders step up in that process.

My last question is for both witness groups. Can they send us information regarding how many people, on the housing rather than the industrial side, are waiting for connection?

I had one big case in Portlaoise where the ESB, or whoever it was, was accused of not supplying, but the outcome was that the houses were being built more quickly than the developer had anticipated and he had not put in his application because he did not expect the houses would be completed and sold as quick as they were. He got all the blame locally because it was not the ESB's fault. In truth, he had not applied for the various connections.

I can see it is often easy to blame somebody else, but can the witnesses give us an indication, separately, of the housing estates or businesses waiting for connections? Roughly, how many are there or what is the average waiting list? I know it is a variable figure. The witnesses probably know where the pressure points are at present. I am not talking about single houses here or there, but significant housing developments or commercial developments.

For Gas Networks Ireland, we are up to date on our connections.

There are no big issues. Nobody who will say they are waiting until next March or anything.

No. We have a process around our domestic and industry connections and we are up to date on delivering those.

What is the general picture for the ESB?

The current housing connection position is we are expecting the numbers to be higher at the end of 2025, compared with 2024. As I mentioned in my response to Deputy Cronin's question on investment, we have targeted another approximately €350 million in projects to do over 2026 and 2027 to ensure we can continue to have capacity in the network to connect.

On Portlaoise, as a general point because it is a good case to mention in the context of the level of growth in that general area, our 34 planner groups across the country do not map exactly to county boundaries. Portlaoise planner group includes Portlaoise, Portarlington and Athy and goes over as far as Baltinglass. There were approximately 750 new connections for housing in 2024. This year, it is looking like somewhere in the region of 1,250 or 1,300, with the majority of that growth in or around Portlaoise itself.

I understand that.

That is a 70% increase in 12 months. One can see from this the scale of housing activity happening, particularly in that area. We are delighted to be able to say we have increased the capacity of the substation in Portlaoise to be able to cater for further growth. It is one of many projects-----

ESB Networks is working on a new substation in Portlaoise. Mr. Tarrant might send us a brief note on that.

Yes, we have put in two new transformers to double the capacity of the existing 110 kV substation in Portlaoise. We also have a new substation in construction near Portarlington and there is another one, called west Portlaoise, to be built during the PR6 period - probably later in the period. These are examples of projects we have in different parts of the country where we are looking to ensure we can deliver on the key issue of housing and keep those projects moving at pace to be able to meet these targets.

I will hand over and finish now but, again, that is probably an example of where somebody can blame the witnesses and say it is the ESB's fault it did not do the connection. The ESB cannot speak publicly and the bad news is going out. That is why I gave that example. It was not the ESB's fault, but it is very easy to blame it in the public eye.

I do not think it is a question of fault in any case.

Developers have challenges around funding their business and for us to be able to issue connection offers to them at the right time as well. In this particular case, we have continued to make the connections, and in the broader picture around Portlaoise and hopefully many other areas, we can continue to deliver housing connections at pace.

I have to hand it to Mr. Tarrant; he is being more diplomatic than I am.

Is there an interactive map or a list of housing developments? In my county, for example, Rhode Green Energy Park has a connection back to the grid. Is there a list of those capital projects or whatever way they are described where we can actually see the capacity that will be provided and the timeline of delivery?

There are a number of documents I might refer to that are all publicly available. The first thing is that we have what is called a capacity heat map, which is on our website. This gives an indication to people seeking to connect to the network what the available capacity is today. There are areas where capacity is tight on the network where investment is needed. However, what it does is encourage customers to talk to us early so that we get an opportunity to keep pace with their needs. That is maybe one area.

The second is we have a list of projects we have defined in our distribution network development plan that went out for consultation earlier in the summer to seek views from all stakeholders around our plans both for the sixth price review, PR6, period, which ends at the end of 2030, and also for PR7, which goes out for the first five years beyond that into the next decade. What that report does is divide the country into zones. In that, we can see the projects that are defined for each zone in the country, and it does define the projects we are looking to bring forward.

To finish on this, ultimately, those projects have to be submitted to and approved by our regulator, the Commission for Regulation, CRU. For the projects in PR6, however, once the final determination for that is published and finalised in December, we will have a pathway to deliver the projects that are set out for the next five years. I will also add that we are not waiting for those projects. For long lead time materials we have placed very significant orders and we are not waiting for final approval in December because we know we need to move at pace to keep those projects going at the level required.

Okay. I think we are nearly there.

I have a couple of questions.

The Deputy may proceed.

These are just a couple of follow-up questions for Gas Networks Ireland. I do not want to say this out of context, and I do not want the witnesses to be taken out of context, but on the extra funding that, say, Uisce Éireann required from a housing perspective and that, obviously, the ESB got as well, would Gas Networks Ireland have that same pressure? I do not want to say it is not under pressure. Is it because there are other ways, obviously, in terms of house heating and all of that, so it is not the same for Gas Networks Ireland as regards investment? Is its core the transitioning away as opposed to the delivery of infrastructure in that way? Am I wrong or right in saying that?

It is a little bit of both actually. A big part of our investment programme is ensuring the resilience in the security supply of the network. It is maintaining that network, its safety and making sure that energy continues to flow through there. It is a big part of our investment. In relation to ourselves, we raise our own funds independently on the capital markets, so we are not reliant on Government funding at all. We essentially raise our own funds if that answers the question, so-----

I refer even to new connections, say, from a housing perspective or from a development. Maybe another question is how many of the 300,000 new houses potentially being brought on stream would have gas networks?

Very few. The policy of the country is that new houses are electrified rather than have gas connections, so very few, if any, will be on the gas network.

So, it is a different sort of pressure. Gas Networks Ireland is obviously under that pressure, and it is probably significant. First of all, does Gas Networks Ireland have the people to do that work that is required? An argument we always hear is that people need workers, construction workers, etc. Does Mr. Tarrant believe Gas Networks Ireland has the people - obviously, it has the funding - to do what is required in the coming years to deliver the houses?

We have made major strides in our organisation to-----

I saw that it hired a lot of extra people, so I get that.

Yes, we have. It is important to say as well that that is not a net increase. We have seen-----

I figured that.

We have a retirement profile as well that we have seen. A good number of people retire from the organisation, so we have been in a refresh of our organisation. We have also been doing things like expanding our apprenticeship programme. If we go back to 2022, we would have been taking in about 60 apprentices per year. This year, we have brought in 156, so it is a very significant investment. We were in Portlaoise recently marking the investment in an expanded network training centre we have in Portlaoise where we do the training for apprentices and for network technicians in general. We have also been hiring qualified electricians. Between apprentices and qualified electricians, by the end of the first quarter of next year, we will have hired about 800 people between the two of those groups. Very importantly, and I might ask Dr. O'Connor to add a little bit to this, we have also been expanding very significantly our contractor base, for example, getting support from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment around bringing in people from outside the EEA, such as specialist overhead line contractors because of the scale of work we need to do. We are seeking to expand our local workforce, because they are key skills, and to support our contractors where we can to expand through new apprenticeship programmes but we are also going overseas to bring in those workers.

What I would say is that we look at the total workforce model. It is both internal in-house ESB Networks staff and then our contracting partners, and our contracting partners are going to be really essential to deliver PR6. In a lot of cases, we have doubled our common contracting resources in key areas. If we look at the frameworks we have where we can draw down for that contract of resources, we are after making huge strides there. We are up to nearly €5 billion in frameworks to draw down from in that market. We have, therefore, made huge strides in that and they are going to be essential to the delivery of PR6.

If I may add one last comment on it, there are always going to be challenges here. If we look across Europe, everybody is seeking to invest at the same time with these kinds of critical skills. We will always be seeking to attract new people into the organisation and support our contractor partners. This is why, for example, the PR6 programme being finalised is so key. For our contract partners to have a line of sight around investment is really important. If they are going to invest in new people, train those people and invest in new machinery and new premises as they are expanding, certainty around the work programme ahead is really important for that.

Exactly. Something that is critical, which we have talked a lot about with the building federations, is the lack of a phased work programme on their side from a State perspective.

I will ask one final question. If both groups could be honest, what do they feel about the Irish system, be it the planning system, regulations, judicial reviews or whatever it might be, with the works they are trying to do? Do they find it a problem?