The purpose of the meeting today is to discuss energy generation, including renewables, our national grid capacity and the importance this plays in attracting foreign direct investment to the Irish economy. I am pleased to welcome the following guests from BnM, which I know as Bord na Móna, being a Laoisman: Mr. John Reilly, head of renewables; Mr. Brendan Kelly, head of commercial; and Ms Sharon Doyle, head of human resources and communications.

As head of renewable energy at Bord na Móna, BnM, I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for the opportunity to appear today to discuss the role of renewable energy generation, national grid capacity and the importance of both in supporting Ireland’s economic growth and attracting foreign direct investment. To assist me in addressing any questions that may arise during the session, I am joined by my colleagues, Ms Sharon Doyle, head of HR and communications, and Mr. Brendan Kelly, head of commercial.

In recent years, BnM has undergone a fundamental transformation from a legacy peat-based business to a fully focused renewable energy company. With the completion of our brown to green transition, which removed peat from the Irish energy mix and replaced it with renewable generation, BnM is now one of Ireland’s largest generators of renewable electricity, with 1 GW of operational capacity and a 5 GW pipeline of projects in development. Over the past five years, BnM has delivered approximately one third of Ireland’s operational renewable electricity capacity. Our pipeline spans onshore and offshore wind and solar energy generation, battery energy storage, biomass and flexible backup capacity, and we plan to invest approximately €2.7 billion over the next decade in renewable energy development. This programme is being delivered in close alignment with national climate and energy policy and in a manner that respects the needs of our numerous stakeholders, including local communities.

Electricity is the lifeblood of a modern economy. A secure and robust electric power system is essential for the effective delivery of socioeconomic, climate and energy strategies. The power system is the backbone of Ireland’s national decarbonisation strategy, offering the ability not just to decarbonise the electricity sector but also to act as a key enabler for decarbonisation of the wider economy, including the heating, transport and industrial sectors. The electric power system is also a strategic enabler of wider policy objectives, such as sustainable economic growth, housing development and general energy security and affordability. Ireland’s ability to enhance the security of electricity supply will increasingly determine the achievement of our climate and development goals.

For almost 100 years, BnM has played a pivotal role in helping to provide energy security for the State and stands ready, as one of the country’s leading energy companies, to play its part in securing our energy future. As an energy company, our core focus is on the delivery of up to 5 GW of renewable generation capacity and associated infrastructure across our landbank by 2040 to support the State's security of supply objectives. Achieving this at pace has become increasingly complex in recent years, reflecting wider systemic issues highlighted in the accelerating infrastructure task force report. Permitting and planning processes have lengthened substantially, with the number of statutory consultees increasing from around five to more than 25 in the past decade. This challenge was also noted in the Draghi report on European competitiveness, published in September 2024, which identified Ireland as having one of the longest permitting timelines for onshore wind in Europe. In addition, judicial review processes have introduced further uncertainty and delay, while ongoing constraints on grid capacity are making it increasingly difficult for developers to progress projects and secure the necessary investment to deliver them.

In 2025, more than 11% of wind energy was dispatched down. This is when a renewable electricity generator like BnM is ordered to produce less electricity than it can, due to grid constraints and curtailment. This underscores the urgency of addressing these system limitations and bottlenecks. In this context, we strongly welcome recent Government action. The €18.9 billion price review, PR, 6 investment programme approved by the Commission for Regulation of Utilities, CRU, for ESB Networks and EirGrid represents a record-breaking commitment to upgrading Ireland’s electricity infrastructure and is a critical enabler of future renewable energy delivery.

We also welcome the wide-ranging reforms set out in the accelerating infrastructure task force’s report and action plan, which, if implemented, would represent a step change in how Ireland delivers major infrastructure. Of particular importance for the energy sector are the proposed measures on planning and regulatory simplification and on accelerating grid delivery. Having experienced a slowdown in infrastructure delivery in recent years, BnM stands ready to work constructively with the Government, regulators and delivery bodies to help to translate these reforms into practical outcomes and ensure the electricity infrastructure required to underpin Ireland’s climate ambitions, energy security and economic competitiveness is delivered at pace.

Ireland plans to meet its very ambitious decarbonisation goals through the continued expansion of renewable energy. Despite being a relatively small, isolated electric power system, with limited physical interconnection to neighbouring countries, Ireland has become a world leader in wind power integration, with almost 40% of electricity demand annually now being met by a portfolio of renewable technologies dominated by onshore wind. BnM has been critical to this achievement, as we have delivered more renewable electricity infrastructure in the past decade than any other player in the market, and we now operate one of the largest onshore wind portfolios in Ireland.

National policy currently dictates that 80% of demand should come from renewables and this requires renewable capacity to increase from 7 GW today to 22 GW. The scale of this challenge is enormous, as outlined in the recent International Energy Agency, IEA, report Powering Ireland’s Energy Future. BnM’s landbank will continue to play a pivotal role in the achievement of this key policy objective, as it is infinitely suitable for the development of renewable energy projects of scale. We see our role not just as an energy generator but as a key delivery partner for the State in critical infrastructure. BnM manages approximately 80,000 ha of interconnected land, much of it in strategically important locations across the midlands. This landbank includes former industrial sites and disused rail corridors that are well suited to hosting essential infrastructure. We already work closely with organisations such as EirGrid, ESB Networks, Gas Networks Ireland and Uisce Éireann, among others, and we believe there is scope for greater alignment between State agencies to support the delivery of critical national infrastructure, particularly in electricity generation, transmission and distribution.

Delivering the energy security benefits of increased electrification will depend not only on our ability to deliver low-emission electricity generation technologies but also to significantly expand the electricity grid to accommodate this increased level of capacity on the generation side and significantly increased demand for electricity.

As renewable generation increases, a key priority is ensuring that power can be efficiently delivered from where it is generated in the regions to where it is consumed. Without timely and targeted grid infrastructure expansion, achievement of many of the socioeconomic objectives across the economy will be placed in jeopardy and vulnerability risks will increase from a security of supply perspective. In the context of a constrained grid, we see a strong opportunity to support regional and economic development by encouraging the co-location of energy demand closer to renewable generation. We therefore welcome the CRU’s large energy user connection policy, which provides clarity for connecting major energy users in a balanced way that drives renewable energy development, minimises impact on other electricity consumers, and maintains security of supply. In this context, BnM is exploring how we can co-locate renewable energy generation and 21st century demand on our landbank to ease pressure on the grid and support regional development, in the midlands in particular, by siting renewable energy generation, battery energy storage, flexible demand and secure grid connections alongside industrial clusters. The partnership we announced last year with a major technology company at Derrygreenagh in County Offaly is a first example of our plans for this model in practice, and we are actively assessing several other suitable locations across the midlands and in the west. There is significant potential to support inward investment, create hundreds of skilled green jobs and strengthen Ireland’s competitiveness.

Our renewable energy projects are designed to deliver value nationally and locally. Local authorities benefit from significant annual rates generated by energy infrastructure. In 2025 alone, BnM invested more than €1.4 million through community funds to support near neighbour schemes, education scholarships and a wide range of community initiatives. In parallel, through our integrated land-use strategy, we align renewable energy development with the rehabilitation of the former cutaway peatlands under the peatlands climate action scheme. We are delivering walking, cycling and amenity trails and tracks through Project Connect in association with Fáilte Ireland, ensuring that the transition delivers climate action, energy security and lasting social and environmental benefits for the regions in which we operate.

I thank the committee for the opportunity to appear before it and to share BnM’s perspective on these critical issues. We approach the energy transition in a spirit of partnership and share the State’s ambition to strengthen energy security, accelerate renewable energy delivery and ensure that this transition delivers real economic and social benefits across the country. We believe our landbank, track record in infrastructure delivery and renewable portfolio position us well to support that ambition. We look forward to working closely with this committee, with Government and agencies of the State to help deliver on that opportunity. We are happy to respond to any questions the committee may have.

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for the opportunity to join them today. EirGrid is Ireland’s transmission system operator and is responsible for planning for Ireland’s long-term electricity needs. We ensure the maintenance and development of a safe, secure and reliable high voltage transmission grid in Ireland, while keeping the lights on, balancing supply and demand every minute of the day. We do this as Ireland faces unprecedented growth in demand, the electrification of society and the integration of renewable energy.

We are currently progressing the most ambitious capital programme of infrastructure development ever undertaken on the transmission system in Ireland, supporting national and regional economic growth and a resilient society. This includes connecting significant volumes of offshore and onshore wind, solar and conventional generation, while reinforcing the grid to enable this power to reach demand customers throughout the country. As part of our work, we are making Ireland’s grid renewable ready in line with the Government’s climate action targets.

Substantial progress has been made during the price review 5 investment period from 2021 to 2025. During this time, a total investment of €2.7 billion was made in the transmission network. This resulted in the connection 3.8 GW of generation capacity to the system, safely and securely. The latter included 2.2 GW of renewables, 800 MW of offshore wind and 1.4 GW of solar and also supported demand growth of 15% during this period. We also significantly reinforced the transmission network, progressing critical infrastructure projects across the country including overhead lines, underground cables, substations and asset upgrades.

Unprecedented ambition requires unprecedented investment and accelerated delivery. EirGrid welcomes the final determination of the price review 6 investment programme issued by our regulator, the Commission for the Regulation of Utilities, in December 2025. Our plan has been carefully considered and designed to support delivery in a cost-effective, efficient, safe, reliable and secure manner. The Government and regulator have provided an investment package of €18.9 billion to EirGrid and ESB Networks over the next five years to deliver infrastructure across the country. The Government has provided a further €2 billion to EirGrid through the national development plan to support the delivery of offshore wind. Our price review 6 plan will meet a range of objectives, including investing in technology and people to support growth and operation of a secure and reliable electricity system, delivering an unprecedented programme of onshore grid infrastructure, taking ownership for offshore transmission assets and ensuring our grid is ready to integrate the Celtic interconnector between Ireland and France.

Over the next five years, EirGrid will develop and deliver 381 transmission infrastructure projects across the country in partnership with ESB Networks. These projects include customer connections, transmission reinforcements and asset upgrades to deliver on social and economic growth, security of supply and further penetration of renewable energy on the system. Work is also under way on the 29 major infrastructure projects identified by EirGrid as transmission priority projects that provide the greatest benefits for Ireland. Sixteen of these are already consented and in delivery. A further 12 are in development. The final one is in pipeline development, pending the achievement of capital approval. Examples include the north Connacht 110 kV project, the cross Shannon 400 kV cable project, the Kildare-Meath 400 kV grid upgrade, the Laois-Kilkenny 400 kV substation and the Great Island-Kellis 220 kV line upgrade. Also included in the transmission priority projects is EirGrid’s Powering Up Dublin programme, the largest programme of work in an urban setting EirGrid has ever undertaken.

EirGrid has also been tasked by Government to deliver a plan-led approach for connecting offshore wind to the electricity grid. The first phase of offshore on the east coast is developer led and EirGrid will take over the transmission grid when it is built. Engagement with developers is progressing well. For phase 2 off the south coast, EirGrid will build, own and operate the offshore transmission grid. Following a successful maritime usage licence application to the Maritime Area Regulatory Authority, we conducted marine survey works in the summer of 2025. We are now progressing to the next stage which will see further engagement with the public, fisheries, landowners and other interested stakeholders on landfall and grid connection points and technology.

Just over two years into construction, the Celtic interconnector in Cork continues to progress apace, with over 60% of onshore high voltage direct current cable installed and the first 84 km of marine cable successfully laid in Irish waters. Once delivered in spring 2028, it will have the capacity to supply electricity to 450,000 homes, increase security of supply and stabilise electricity prices. To deliver an infrastructure programme of this magnitude at scale and pace, early and consistent engagement with stakeholders and the public is critical for success particularly with landowners and communities who host the projects.

EirGrid’s public engagement strategy has evolved over time to ensure that stakeholders are part of the journey. A key enabler to achieving consenting on our major infrastructure projects over the past five years has been the establishment of community forums where we involve communities, volunteers and local politicians in decision-making from the earliest stage of delivery. These forums have provided us with local insights and information that has shaped how we deliver, from co-designing local plans to the allocation of our community benefit funds. We achieve this by developing relationships on the ground from an early stage to ensure local views are represented, establishing community benefit funds to ensure that the local communities hosting infrastructure will directly benefit and building awareness about EirGrid’s work and the benefits of that infrastructure.

In 2022, EirGrid established the Dublin infrastructure forum to streamline our engagement with the relevant stakeholders on the Powering Up Dublin programme. Its members, including other utilities, local authorities and representative groups, share learnings and information, aiming to minimise the impact both on the public and on the fabric of the city and county. We are also working with local authorities to identify similar opportunities in areas where we are delivering large projects. EirGrid is an active participant and member of a number of Government initiatives, including the accelerating infrastructure task force, the accelerating renewable energy task force and the housing activation office, which all focus on unblocking barriers and accelerating infrastructure delivery.

Electricity infrastructure is not just about keeping the lights on; it supports the delivery of Government policy and targets in key areas such as housing, climate, enterprise, digitalisation and industry, benefitting our communities and wider society. In delivering timely and robust infrastructure, our focus remains on working closely with communities and our stakeholders including the Government, our regulator, other State agencies and industry. We look forward to continuing open dialogue and political support as we work towards a cleaner, more sustainable future.

I thank the Chairperson and members for the invitation to speak to them today about the importance of renewable energy generation and Ireland’s national grid capacity to the attraction and retention of foreign direct investment, FDI.

IDA Ireland is the State agency under the auspices of the Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment tasked with attracting and retaining FDI and focusing on building sustainable partnerships with client companies that support economic opportunities for Ireland. The agency works with companies throughout their investment journey from early-stage research and site selection through to embedding, expansion and reinvestment. IDA Ireland targets new and existing clients for investments, focusing on core sectors for FDI in which Ireland has an established base and a proven investment proposition, including in technology, international financial services, pharmaceuticals, medical technologies, engineering and the green economy.

The economic and employment impact of the 1,800 client company operations in the portfolio remains at a record level. Employment in IDA Ireland client companies increased by 1.5% year on year in 2025 to 312,400. Annual client expenditure on payroll, Irish materials and Irish services totalled over €40 billion in 2024, with a further €12.8 billion spent on capital expenditure projects.

IDA Ireland’s Adapt Intelligently: A Strategy for Sustainable Growth and Innovation 2025-29 aims to enhance Ireland’s economic performance by securing new investments and supporting existing companies in transforming, innovating and expanding their Irish operations. Targets for the strategy include securing 1,000 investments, with 55% of those being for regional locations, driving €7 billion in new research and development spending, creating 75,000 new jobs and upskilling 40,000 people, reducing IDA Ireland client carbon emissions by 35% and supporting €250 billion in economic activity over the five years. In the first year of the strategy, IDA Ireland secured 323 investments, which is a record number, with significant capital committed to research and innovation, sustainability and talent development. Notably, 57% of investments went to regional locations in line with our strategic focus on maximising regional opportunities. IDA Ireland clients that have invested in the regions in 2025 alone include GE Healthcare, Datavant, Tricentis, Cook Medical, Ericsson, Canto, Kappture, Kirchhoff Ireland, IBM and Hollister Incorporated. Dublin continues to remain a leading location for FDI, in particular for Ireland’s proposition for innovative and talent-driven investments. For example, Sony Interactive Entertainment, PayPal, and Workday announced significant investments in AI research and development last year.

Ireland’s strong FDI performance in 2025 reflects the country’s resilience and its continued competitiveness and attractiveness in the context of FDI. However, in an era of intense global competition for this investment we cannot become complacent. While international factors are largely outside our control we can shape the domestic factors that are critical to Ireland’s ability to succeed by ensuring policy certainty and an enabling environment. Key enablers for ongoing success and attractiveness include robust infrastructure, policy stability, market access, incentives and talent availability. The commitments in the revised national development plan, coupled with the reforms set out in the Government’s Accelerating Infrastructure Report and Action Plan, are welcome steps in enabling continued enterprise growth and economic opportunity in the future.

Ireland’s ability to retain and renew our FDI base, and indeed all enterprise, is fundamentally linked to having a secure supply of cost-competitive sustainable energy to meet the demands of today and accommodate continued enterprise growth in the years ahead. As global competition increases Ireland’s energy sources must transition towards clean, renewable and cost-competitive forms to maintain its attractiveness for investment. Ireland’s future ambitions, including winning investment across key FDI growth drivers, such as AI and digitalisation, semiconductors, sustainability and health, and further advancing regional development through energy-intensive and transformational next generation sites, will also be shaped by capacity and cost of energy. Managing energy costs is crucial for Ireland’s global competitiveness. As Ireland invests heavily in grid modernisation and decarbonisation it is vital that prices are monitored carefully to avoid discouraging investment or disproportionately affecting enterprise. The Government’s recent policy commitments are very welcome. The Large Energy-User Action Plan, the NDP review and the Accelerating Infrastructure Report and Action Plan on Competitiveness and Productivity, along with budget 2026 funding allocations, all aim to address grid constraints and energy costs.

Developing renewable energy and reinforcing the grid are strategic imperatives for Ireland’s competitiveness and FDI strategy. The three main drivers of industrial energy demand are: decarbonising established industry, which requires access to reinforced grid capacity to replace fossil fuels with cleaner electric technologies; supporting the growth of existing operations, which increases energy needs and necessitates a shift to renewable solutions; and attracting new investments, as companies increasingly require access to clean, cost competitive, secure, and scalable energy. Electrification, supported by renewables, is vital for achieving climate targets and enhancing industry competitiveness. Investment in grid infrastructure, particularly reinforcement at both a distribution and transmission level, alongside new energy generation, is essential to meet rising demand and to ensure reliable, cost-competitive supply for both existing and new enterprises. IDA Ireland contributes to the low-carbon transition by embedding sustainability measures in its regional property programme to support both IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland clients, including promoting on-site renewable energy projects, which require robust and expandable grid infrastructure. We also provide sustainability supports to our clients to drive energy efficiencies and to decarbonise their operations.

Significant progress was made in 2025, including the latest CRU price review 6 which enables a record investment in the transmission and distribution grid, publication of the CRU review Large Energy Users connection policy, commencement of the Celtic Interconnector project with France, a new private wires policy statement and the recent offshore wind auctions.

I thank members of the committee for the opportunity to attend and for continuing to highlight this very important topic. Ireland continues to be a premier location for FDI, with a record number of investments secured by IDA Ireland during 2025. Our total client employment now stands at over 312,000 people with 170,000 of those in regional locations. This fully supports the Government’s objectives for more balanced regional development. However, we cannot be complacent. In that context, having a secure, competitive energy supply is fundamental to retaining and expanding our FDI base and driving success across the enterprise sector. Progress made in 2025 has set the stage, but maintaining a sharp focus on delivering increased grid capacity and competitive energy costs in 2026 and beyond is critical for Ireland’s ongoing economic success and its ambition to lead in the green economy. IDA Ireland will continue to work collaboratively with its partners and stakeholders, including EirGrid and BnM, to support swift delivery as we continue our focus on retaining and winning new investments for Ireland and its people.

I thank Ms Buckley and thank everyone for their opening statements. Before I call on members, the first of whom to indicate were Deputies McCormack, O'Hara, Tóibín and Clendennen, I have a few broad questions, primarily for EirGrid.

We are talking about electricity, and we have renewables and end users, including IDA Ireland clients. The witnesses might give the ordinary person a feel for what we are talking about though. Take gigawatts for example. We are all confused. The witnesses know what it means but will they explain to the public what a gigawatt is? How many houses can get heat and light from a gigawatt? Is it a few hundred thousand? I am asking in order that we can get a feel for what a gigawatt is.

The word "gigawatt" gets thrown around and a lot of people do not understand it. The witnesses might give us a feel for what a gigawatt does. What is the gigawatt's regular daily usage, and what is the target for 2030? Where are we now in terms of the amount that is carried and where do we expect to be? What is the plan in place to achieve that? That is very important.

They might also give us some information on the existing sources. I know it is in other publications, but it is to give a bit of context for today so that people watching will understand it as it is now versus 2030 with regard to the sources of our electricity, whether it is wind, solar or other renewables or oil, gas or what comes from the interconnector. Somebody might give a quick summary of that. I am sure the witnesses know where all the electricity is generated from and all the various sources. Somebody might start off by explaining what a gigawatt is in terms of practicalities for a person to understand and then also the targets between now and 2030.

I will put this in at this stage. Given that a major expansion is going to be required, have we the capacity in Ireland and the raw materials and products, especially for transmission? Inevitably, we are operating in a world context. Ireland cannot do all of this on its own. Let us hope that over the coming years, there is a big rebuilding programme in Ukraine and Gaza. There is going to be phenomenal international competition for what we need to upgrade our grid for countries like that, which are going to have major rebuilding after their wars. Let us hope they end as quickly as possible. However, we are going to be competing with world companies that are heading in those directions. What kind of strategy have we in place to make sure we do not get lost in that worldwide battle in terms of having the requirements for our own grid here at home? After that, I will hand over; they are broad questions, and some are new questions. Whoever chooses to answer, we are in their hands.

I will say something in terms of the overall figures for the power system. When we talk about megawatts and gigawatts, a gigawatt is 1,000 MW. That is probably the easy way to answer what that is. When we talk about a gigawatt, it is probably equivalent to about 650,000 homes. When we talk about the Celtic interconnector being 700 MW, that will support power to around 450,000 homes, so a gigawatt is in and around 650,000. To give the Chairman a scale of the size of our system today, our peak demand, which would have occurred in January of last year, would be 6 GW or 6,000 MW. To give the Chairman an idea of some equivalent cities, Galway city would be around 100 MW when we are talking about demand.

That is one tenth of a gigawatt.

Yes, one tenth of a gigawatt. Kilkenny would be around 60 MW.

Okay. People understand this a little bit easier.

That is just to give a sense of the cities and the scale of that. The scale of the overall system at the minute is 6 GW. We have seen that grow quite a bit over the last ten years, but it is also going to grow significantly over the next period of time as we move towards-----

What is the target for that?

Over the period to 2034, we would see demand on the system growing by about 45% and that is to meet a series of different demands upon the system.

Could that be up to 8 GW?

We would probably see 7 GW by 2030 and maybe 8 GW then. It is about 45% on 6 GW or whatever by 2034, so it is about half of it nearly by 2034.

Right.

We would see that growing significantly maybe by three or four times in the period out to 2040 or 2050 because of the move towards electrification and the requirements of large energy users, LEUs, and a lot of different demands. We will see that growing significantly over the period to 2040 or 2050. That is to give the Chairman a scale of where we are today.

Okay. Then, what is the breakdown as to the sources of that at the moment versus what is planned by 2034?

At the moment, in terms of generation, we would have in or around 5 GW. It is approximately 5 GW of wind generation that is currently connected to the system and around 2 GW of solar generation, if that is what the Chairman is asking, in terms of the sources. Today, across the island we would have approximately 1.7 GW of interconnection and we will grow that by a further 700 MW on interconnection in the period between now and 2030.

I have a breakdown of the percentages if it is useful because we just completed that exercise. They will not be exact, but it is just to give a sense. In 2025, in terms of total electricity demand on the power system, about 45% of that was met from gas, the vast majority of which is imported. About 40% was met from renewables of which 33% was wind. Solar is growing at about 3%, hydro is about 2% and then a balance of about 2% is between biomass and biogas. Therefore, renewable is at about 40%. Then, very interestingly in terms of the interconnection piece, we had record net imports across the interconnectors to help to meet demand last year. I think they will bottom out from our figures at about 15%. That is the rough breakdown across the year of how things are going. The reality is the biggest source is still gas.

Okay. What is the plan at the end of 2034? What is the target for those percentages in 2034?

The early targets are 80% of renewables by 2030. However, we will still see a level of gas within the system then, and a level of gas within the system for some time to come after that because, ultimately, when the wind is not blowing and the sun is not shining, we will still need a backup source of generation. For now, and for the foreseeable future, we see gas playing a role in that regard. However, that will need to be supplemented with a range of other technologies such as batteries and other technologies to support that move towards renewables. We will see it becoming much more what we would call a balanced portfolio with different technologies but within that, gas will still play an important role.

Okay. I thank the witnesses. Speakers have indicated in sequence. Deputy McCormack will go first.

I thank Mr. Reilly, Ms O'Shea and Ms Buckley for their opening statements. To start with Bord na Móna, we are lucky today in this infrastructure and national development plan that we have a company like what was previously called Bord na Móna. Being from the midlands, I would be very familiar with the work that has gone on in the past through milling peat, which went into the ESB and into the power station to become part of power production. However, a huge transformation has happened in Bord na Móna, which is now BnM, and in power production through the wind farms and solar farms it has, particularly the ones I know around the midlands. What alarms me is that through previous discussions with other people, I have learned that when we are producing the maximum power we can from solar farms and wind farms in the midlands, sometimes 40% of the electricity that is produced does not get on to the grid because the grid capacity is already full. That is very alarming for me as a politician but also for people to think we are producing that power, and we have not got the grid capacity to do that.

The questions I have are for EirGrid. First, why is this happening? Second, even though we have a dependence on infrastructure and especially on power infrastructure - there has been so much talk about it, recommendations are coming from the accelerating infrastructure report and money is committed from the Government - the fact is that we had so little built on the grid last year. Is that going to change this year? What is it going to be like going forward? Can we have collaboration between, say, EirGrid and Bord na Móna, or BnM, in order for that grid to be built at the pace that is required?

We talk here to the Industrial Development Authority, IDA Ireland, which is bringing companies into the country. Obviously, they have a power requirement as well, which is very important, but we do not want to hinder that. I often say that we do not have an awful lot of natural resources in this country when we think about gas and oil. We have our people. We have our farming. We have tourism. At the end of the day, the biggest thing that is bringing money into this country at the moment through corporation taxes, income taxes, PRSI and PAYE is the foreign direct investment, FDI, companies. We do not want at any stage, first, not to have the power to be able to supply to those companies and, second, to become uncompetitive as a result of path or log jams or hold-ups in the whole system. My question is to EirGrid. Why has the grid not been extended to the extent that it needs to be extended? Are there plans in place to make sure the 40% that is being produced, which is not getting on to the grid, will be getting on to the grid very shortly?

With regard to BnM, we already work with it with on some of the matters the Deputy raised. We work with other developers in terms of potential in certain parts of the country to move forward with significant infrastructure. With regard to development to date, there has been a lot of progress. Under the last price review period, which ended in December, we made a lot of progress with regard to critical infrastructure. In that context, an all-systems approach is required. We welcome the support across government to bring forward infrastructure and the remove barriers we have found when trying to move infrastructure forward.

The witnesses cannot give me a timeline as to when that is going to happen.

We have our investment plan for the next five years. That sets out clearly exactly what projects we are going to build. We are fully funded. We have the policy signals, regulatory framework and funding.

That is all in place. It is up to the witnesses to deliver. It is important for this country that we have an infrastructure plan that works. There are enough people talking around tables. At this stage, we need action.

As I said, EirGrid is important in this regard. We need connections to offshore wind turbines. There are turbines that already operate in the midlands and many more are planned for the next number of years. We need to get them onto the grid in order to be able to supply power and, as was said, reduce our reliance on imported gas. We should be able to supply most of our power ourselves.

I will move on to the IDA because I am limited with time. I thank Ms Buckley for her opening statement. We met in New York about 14 or 15 years ago when I was fighting the case for the midlands, in particular Tullamore. I am being parochial, but we are very happy with what has happened recently in Tullamore where land was purchased for a new IDA project. That was very much appreciated. It will create an advantage for the area. The IDA will be able to bring itineraries to the area and fill that space with jobs.

On energy, is the IDA finding there are issues with companies which wish to locate here but we do not have enough power for them? The timelines involved are for next year and the following years. Is the IDA worried that we do not have the power to be able to supply companies who want to locate here?

I thank the Deputy for the question. We recently acquired lands and are looking at them for the long term in order to be able to attract and retain FDI in the county. From the perspective of our client companies, in our engagements one of the key things we would be very conscious of is the need to demonstrate that we have the capacity and capability to deliver in the future. This year we have been able to demonstrate the focus of the country on ensuring that we work towards ensuring there is energy capacity in the country in the medium and long terms. Our clients look for clarity, confidence and certainty.

This year, in particular, we are very conscious that the work EirGrid and BnM, etc., are doing with our client companies is helpful. In tandem with that, we would be very conscious of some of the commitments that have been made this year. As I have alluded to already, we are now able to engage with our client companies and talk to them about the large energy users connection policy. In tandem with that, we have the action plan that was approved yesterday covering a range of sectors. The interconnector project between France and Cork is under way. There is one planned and being worked on from Spain. There is the private wire policy. There was a recent successful wind farm auction. Such projects are all really helpful.

The accelerating infrastructure task force and action plan gives confidence. In tandem with that, a semiconductor strategy was recently launched. On top of that, we are working on a national life sciences strategy with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. All of those things create a joined-up approach, which is critically important. We talk about the importance of competitiveness. The competitiveness and productivity action plan is also very helpful and very supportive in terms of bringing clarity and certainty to our client companies in their ability to deliver not just today but into the future.

Before I move onto the next speaker, on a point of clarification regarding something that was said earlier, reference is made in the BnM opening statement to increasing capacity from 7 GW today to 22 GW in 2030. That information comes from an ESB Networks published document. I asked about demand. If I heard correctly, I understand peak demand in 2025 was about 6 GW and BnM wants a 40% increase to bring that up to 9 GW by 2034. How does the 9 GW figure tally with the 22 GW figure? I am utterly confused. Mr. Reilly can understand where I am coming from.

Totally. It is quite a complex issue. GW and MW are quite a complex issue.

When people hear the term "gigawatts", they switch off. I do not understand the figures.

The 22 GW figure is part of the Government's policy in terms of the target for installed renewable capacity by 2030. That amounts to 9 GW of onshore wind, 5 GW of offshore wind and 8 GW of solar.

You are saying that is the 80% figure you hope to-----

Yes. Correct.

You are saying the GW capacity by 2034, if 22 GW is 80%, will be 27 GW.

If we had 6 GW of wind running 24-7, 365 days a year, we would need nothing else to meet the peak demand of 7 GW. Of course, the wind does not always blow and the sun does not always shine. From the modelling that has been done, we require approximately 22 GW of installed renewable capacity by 2030 to meet a targeted increase in peak demand of about 7 GW at that time. That is the peak. We are also looking at how much units of production we get over the course of the year. That is where the 80% figure comes from.

The 80% figure-----

Yes. The 22 GW of installed renewable capacity would meet 80% of annual demand.

What is the expected annual demand?

I will frighten the Cathaoirleach by saying it is 34 TWh. The gigawatts figure is the peak in a day and there is then the units of electricity consumed over a full year.

Okay. It is getting more confusing.

We could introduce other watts as well if we wanted to.

That said, what is confusing viewers here today is that we have heard about 6 GW at peak having to increase by 40% to about 9 GW. On the other side, we have heard we need production capacity of something like-----

Twenty-two GW.

Twenty-two GW refers to the 80% figure.

That is correct.

That means the figure is 27 GW. Is BnM equipped to go from carrying whatever it is at the moment to up to 27 GW? Is there 27 GW in the system at any one time?

There are a couple of things-----

You understand.

I understand.

You lose the public when you start talking like this. It is to be hoped that the people of Ireland who are watching will understand. Everyone on this side of the House is a bit confused when we talk about 6 GW and 9 GW and then talk about 27 GW in the next breath, and then there is discussion about production capacity. Does that mean that three quarters of capacity is not being delivered or used?

It is not being utilised at any particular time because, remember, the sun does not shine at night time and the wind does not always blow. Another simple way of looking at it is, if the only fuel we wanted in the Irish energy mix was gas, something that was always in the pipe and you could always run it, to meet a peak demand of 6 GW, a little bit of spare capacity at 7 GW of generating capacity would be enough. However, when you have a diverse portfolio of renewables with some thermal and some backup, it is modelled quite clearly, the assessment was by 2030, for a given total demand on the electricity system, you would need about 22 GW of renewables.

What is the demand of watts estimated at?

It is about 40 TWh of production.

Can the witness stick with the gigawatts? Let us not get into the terawatts.

That is 40,000 GWh.

I have one last question before we move on. The Irish people are going to have to invest and pay through their electricity bills for capacity that is four times in excess of what is required at peak time.

Yes, that is about correct. This is because of the mix of technologies we have on the power system.

Would the witnesses say if we relied on gas, which no one wants to do, we would not have to produce all this extra capacity that can come and go?

It would be very expensive.

We are going to have production capacity of four times what is required. I have never heard of a factory investing in its machinery and capacity that is four times greater than what is ever going to be required at any one time.

It is not excess capacity. As I said, it is what is needed because the capacity factor for a wind farm is about 33%. The capacity factor for a solar farm in Ireland is about 10%. That means it is only running 10% of the time.

We are getting there now.

It is linked to incapacity factors.

Among all the witnesses, who is going to give us the layman's version of understanding all this? It can be more collectively or separately, but I do not want to spend the rest of the meeting-----

Does the Chair want us to put something in writing that would explain it? We will do that.

The witnesses might come back in the next fortnight or so with that.

We are very happy to do that.

With regard to the production capacity versus requirement and the excess capacity we are investing in to make sure we meet the minimum or maximum requirements at any one time, is that normal across Europe?

Absolutely, that is pretty much standard for what would be required to have what we call "security of energy supply."

Is that because of decarbonisation, that we do not want to rely on gas and oil, which is there at the turn of a tap if we want it?

Exactly.

Going through the decarbonising process, there is going to be an a lot of capital investment that will not be fully utilised at any one time.

There will be a significantly reduced energy cost because we will not be burning and importing fuel.

It is a fixed cost with more renewables.

Exactly.

In other words, you will have big investment for the turbines that will last for 30 years or whatever or for the solar panels. It is upfront cost.

Yes and therefore, there will be more certainty around the price going forward and less price volatility. The sort of price volatility we have seen in Europe in the past four or five years because of the Russia-Ukraine crisis was because of the price of gas.

I hope the witnesses can understand where we are coming from.

Absolutely.

The witnesses trot these figures off the top of their tongues but the people watching get lost in some of this. That is why that figure does not tally to the ordinary viewer.

We will work with EirGrid to make a submission on that.

I have said enough for now, so it is over to Deputy Tóibín.

I thank my colleague, Deputy O'Hara, for letting me go ahead because I have to chair a meeting shortly. Gabhaim buíochas leis na finnéithe go léir as ucht freastal ar an gcruinniú and for their presentations and work they do.

There is much concern regarding energy in Ireland at present. There was a headline in the Sunday Independent, I do not know if anyone saw it, but it basically said "Overloaded energy grid threatens to delay major transport links", such as the MetroLink currently. A significant level of electricity is being imported as well which is shocking, being honest. It is a headline weakness of the system.

We were told for years that we would become the Saudi Arabia of renewable energy and we would be the net exporter of energy. However, we have significantly become a net importer of electricity in recent times. We also have the highest electricity prices. I know we had the back and forth around gas and the cost of it but my understanding is the price of electricity is set at gas anyway. Whether it is created by renewables or not, we are paying the gas price on it as far as the consumer is concerned.

Wind farms are at a trickle in terms of new farms being built in this country at present. There is no offshore wind farm functioning currently. We had one, which has been decommissioned. We have had more Government conferences of offshore wind energy than we have functioning offshore wind farms. It is incredible. We also recently heard plans for a €1.4 billion wind farm that has been withdrawn from the west coast since Christmas and another plan was withdrawn before Christmas as well. International providers of offshore wind are not overly excited about the Irish system currently. The idea that generators are being told not to put their electricity on the system because the system cannot hold it is also deeply problematic.

As regards the witnesses' assessment, are the constraints in the system leading to a lower industrial development and are they stopping the building of homes and infrastructure in this country? EirGrid might want to answer that question.

In terms of whether it is stymieing development, my immediate answer to that is "No". There is a very positive climate there. I am not by any means saying the grid is not constrained at present. There are particular areas around Dublin where it is constrained but we do a lot of work to plan the system to make sure the transmission infrastructure and investments are there to support that investment, and we have definitely seen a very positive climate in terms of investment from some of the clients on the FDI side. We also continue to support ESB Networks as a distribution system operator in the demands it sees or foresees on its own distribution network.

At present, we are accommodating the demands that are there, notwithstanding, as I said earlier, demand increasing significantly in the period out to the next ten years. We have put in place an infrastructure programme to address that in terms of PR6 and it is very positive in seeing some of the policy instruments coming through from Government now, both for an accelerated infrastructure and around a large energy user action plan and making sure there is a more plan-led approach to that.

I appreciate that but I have just two and half minutes which is very short.

If it is not blocking the development of industry, housing or transport infrastructure, what is the net outcome of a constraint?

Is that the net outcome of a constraint on the grid?

Yes, if it is constrained.

What we need to do come up with plans. We have come out with-----

If EirGrid has a constrained electricity system around Dublin, how does that manifest in terms of the public and development right now?

Right now, one particular element is there is the constraint around some of the LEU connection policies. When we talk about Dublin being a constrained area, the LEU connection policy and the large energy user action plan flag that Dublin is a constrained area from the point of view of some of that investment right now. We have facilitated a significant amount in the Dublin area in terms of FDI investment. We also continue to support the distribution system operator around some of those bulk supply points, to support investment in transport infrastructure and electrification of that and housing, which is also moving towards greater levels of electrification.

One of the clear ones is the large energy users action plan. Within that plan, we have also noted there is an action for further engagement between ourselves and the Department around how limited opportunities may become available in the greater Dublin area around that industrial policy and investment.

Will EirGrid's plans affect consumer prices, and when?

In terms of the investment plans?

Yes. We have the highest electricity prices in Europe at present, so will the witnesses' plans reduce electricity prices to consumers and when will that be?

In those terms, what you need to look at is what the contributions are to the current price of electricity within the State. Much of what we talked about earlier was to do with wholesale electricity. That is enabling us to move away from an element where gas is involved in setting that price. Some of the high prices we have seen in recent times are because we have that predominance of gas. Wholesale gas prices have gone up and we are more susceptible to that.

We have the biggest gap between wholesale prices and retail prices in Europe at present. That gap is far larger; wholesale prices for sure, but the gap between the wholesale and the retail is higher here.

There are bits of that bill which I cannot speak to because they are run by other parts of the supply chain, such as suppliers, etc. The network charges piece within that, and the transmission network charges piece within that fixed piece is a low percentage, at less than 10%. It is 6% or 7% of that bill. That will increase slightly over the period to 2030 to support that PR6 investment.

That PR6 investment, however, will make a significant contribution towards incorporating renewables and supporting that wholesale price being changed over time as well.

I have a brief question to finish off there. On the North-South interconnector, which is one of EirGrid's biggest projects there, that particular project was started in 2007. An Bord Pleanála at the time said there was no proper consultation. The planning application was withdrawn in 2009 because it was not up to standard. It took six years for it to be resubmitted by EirGrid. The second planning application, in 2015, had major difficulties in it. How many landowners have signed up to the North-South interconnector currently and why is the ESB liaising with the county councils rather than EirGrid in relation to landowners' access?

I might let my colleague, Ms O'Shea, take that.

EirGrid's role is to bring projects through the engagement and consenting phase. Then we agree project agreement with the ESB and then it brings the projects through delivery phase from a construction perspective. That is why the ESB, in its capacity as the transmission asset owner, is working with the three county councils to discharge the planning conditions at the moment.

How many landowners have signed up at this stage? It has been 20 years. We do know if any landowners are or even if it is at 20% or 30%. This is the biggest project EirGrid is involved in at present.

Ms O'Shea mentioned consent. People want it underground. There is no consent for this project to be overground. If it was underground, it would have been built long ago. It seems that, even now, we do not know how many landowners have consented for EirGrid or the ESB to go onto the land to build these pylons.

With regards the undergrounding, over the years there have been three independent reports and assessments done on it by different Governments, including a fourth review of the independent reports. They have all come to the same conclusion, which is to support EirGrid's position with regards to the need for a project of this scale to be an overhead line, so that is what we are going to progress. We are through the planning and the consenting. Hopefully, the discharge planning will conclude, all going well, in the next few months and then the project is to move into construction approximately in June time, if everything moves-----

Is that June time this year?

In June 2026, the project moves into construction.

There has been a long road, I guess, with regards to stakeholder engagement and our approach to it has continued to evolve. We will continue. When we are in the position where the planning has been discharged, we will work. We will do extensive stakeholder and landowner engagement to move forward with the project at that stage.

Gabhaim buíochas leo. I appreciate that.

I thank the witnesses for their time today. I will start by focusing on energy constraints and the costs associated with it. We have seen major increases in the cost of electricity over the last number of years. The cost of constraints on the grid is obviously one driver of that. A report came out from EnergyCloud this week showing that over 1,000 GWh of renewable energy was lost to dispatch down and constraints and obviously the cost of these constraints are recovered through household electricity bills. In his opening statement, EirGrid mentioned the investment plan under the PR6 process. I just want to understand. Does EirGrid have any plans to reduce this level of dispatch down?

Yes. Dispatch down is a very important element that we are focusing on as part of our work over the period to 2030. There are a few elements.

Dispatch down is contributed to by a number of different elements within the electricity system. One of them is local constraints. You can think about that as the road network and whether the road network can support the level of flows on it, so that is one level. The other one is around an operational piece, which is that we need to be able to accommodate and maintain security of supply and stability within the power system. That means we can absorb a certain amount of renewable-type generation and manage the stability within the power system. That contributes to another piece of dispatch down. Then there is another piece which is around what we would call "surplus". There is at times of the day or at night more generation on the system than demand can absorb.

There are different solutions to each one of those. If we take the constraints, the PR6 programme is a significant investment in the wires that travel around the country. That will start to alleviate the constraints on the localities of the wind farms and create that backbone infrastructure that will allow the generation to flow from where it is to where it is needed. We have a programme of work to develop what we call "an operational roadmap" in the period out to 2035 and that is to look at how do we change the operational conditions that allow more wind to be on the system. For example, a lot of the time we have to maintain a certain number of thermal dispatchable generators on the system in order to be able to maintain that. We have been able to reduce that from five to four last year and we are looking to reduce that further in the period. That all creates more space for wind generation to participate. The last one is around surplus and that really requires a lot of different elements to come forward. That is around how do you make that demand more flexible to be able to move around to when the wind is blowing; how can you use elements like storage to be able to store the wind when it is blowing and reuse it at a different time when the consumption or the demand pattern is there; and how can we work with some of the FDI-type people to be more flexible in their demand in terms of turning up and turning down their demand or turning on generation to match their demand to where the renewables are.

A final part, I might say, within that is that we also advocate for what we call "a plan-led approach", and that is why I was interested to see that the large energy users action plan came out yesterday. This involves how can we better co-locate our demand sources along with our generation sources to minimise the need to transport it around the network and how can we come up with a more strategic approach to aligning our generation resources, particularly around offshore and some of the onshore resources, as well as the FDI investment that we see coming through.

Does EirGrid have any specific targets in terms of reducing the level of the constraints on the system?

It is something that we are actively managing at the moment. Interestingly, it is not something that will go down overnight so I want to make sure that is not something that we can do because whenever we are moving through the power system and connecting more wind, wind generally can connect a lot quicker than transmission infrastructure can be built. Renewable resources can be built quicker within the system than transmission and they are allowed to connect before the backbone infrastructure is built for them so there is a natural element of dispatch down that will come through. There is also a piece whereby, as we begin to connect more and more resources onto the system, we have to take outages of wires to connect them in, to do the maintenance on them and to do the upgrades we need to do for PR6. There are natural elements of that, which are around accommodating connection of renewables that drive a little bit of this dispatch down, so it will not go down immediately. What I am saying is we have a really focused action plan and a working group working with industry on this to try and resolve it.

I am sorry to interrupt. I have limited time. I want to move on.

We had recent media coverage around senior Government planners warning that significant projects, such as the MetroLink, rail electrification and BusConnects, could be delayed or might not be viable because of constraints on the electricity system. Yesterday, as Mr. Close mentioned, we had the Large Energy-User Action Plan that opens the door to further data centre development. We are all aware that data centres are major consumers of electricity. I just want to understand. Does EirGrid believe that we can maintain the current rates of data centre connections while also building essential infrastructural projects such as in transport and housing?

There has been a development. If you take data centres, first of all, there has been an iteration of the kind of policy around data centres over the last number of years. It has moved from one where data centres were connected as normal large energy users to one where the policy environment permits them to connect but only in an environment where it is not constrained already on the transmission system, where they bring their own dispatchable generation and where they bring their own flexibility in demand - the elements I talked about a few moments ago. Those are a strict set of conditions, that we follow and which were published by the regulator and refreshed by the regulator in 2025. It is a positive environment in terms of that is where we consider applications. They also need to bring renewable resources along with them.

In a broader sense of the large energy user, LEU, connections, which, as Ms Buckley outlined earlier, are not only data centres but also cover things like semiconductors and life sciences, that overall demand growth around large energy users more generally, the publishing of that plan yesterday and taking that plan-led approach that I talked was a positive development in terms of making sure how we co-locate these demand requirements with our generation resources and maximise that opportunity for the FDI investment.

I also note some of the projects the Deputy is talking about were in the greater Dublin area.

It also talked about, for our discussion, the fact that Dublin is a constrained area in terms of investment for FDI or data centres at the moment. How can we work with the Government or other stakeholders to try to conduct an assessment on what limited opportunities there might be in the greater Dublin area over the coming period?

In considering our EU demand, we have to consider all sorts of demands in planning a transmission system. Most of those transport and electrification of housing projects turn up for us through an application by ESB Networks at the distribution system level and they will come to us for what is called a bulk supply point. That is where the distribution system connects into the transmission system. We will plan our network accordingly to meet their needs. We have been able to do that to date. We have gone through a very positive programme of work over the past six months, even looking at it again with ESB Networks and the Department to make sure that the short to medium term needs can be met.

MetroLink was mentioned specifically. We are aware of the requirements there and we are working with the distribution system operators and with the regulator and the Department. A group has been set up - the urban capacity contact group. That is to make sure that we can do some planning with the system to ensure we have sufficient capacity for all the needs.

I thank the witnesses.

I thank all the witnesses for joining us today. I will go to Bord na Móna first. I acknowledge its long connection to my home county of Offaly and the ongoing transition that has been taking place. What are the challenges and frustrations that have been witnessed or experienced in the transition to renewables, particularly wind and solar? What are the three biggest challenges or frustrations?

I can actually couch that in the discussion around costs. It is an absolute fact that Ireland has some of the highest electricity prices anywhere in Europe. One of the principal reasons for that is the infrastructure deficit we have in the energy sector. We burn way too much gas today. The electricity bill has two components to it and the energy element of it is linked to the wholesale price of electricity. That is being dominated today by gas. I referred earlier to 45% of the total consumption being gas. Energy policy requires that to get right down to where gas is not the dominant fuel in the power system but a back-up fuel. The fact that we cannot build renewables to replace that gas is a contributor to high electricity prices in Ireland. That is number one.

The second component of our electricity bills is the standing or fixed charges. That incorporates a lot of bits and pieces in it. The constraint costs to which the Deputy referred previously are embedded in that. The CRU reported recently that the imperfection or balancing charges are in excess of €800 million this year. Again, that is because we have an infrastructural deficit in the electricity sector. If we want to reduce the cost of electricity in Ireland, Government policy is quite clear about how that needs to be done. First, we must reduce gas consumption. How do we do that? We must build more indigenous renewables such as wind and solar - our stuff rather than importing materials. To accommodate that and to operate that system effectively with more generation on it, we need to expand the network. In actual fact, the route to reducing costs overall is embedded in Government policy. The question then is: why are we not able to do that?

Maybe I will put that question to EirGrid.

I refer to the excellent Accelerating Infrastructure Taskforce report, which identifies, very clearly in our view in Bord na Móna, why we have been unable to deliver the infrastructure in the electricity sector at the pace at which we needed to over the past ten years. There is no one simple thing. Four key pillars for action outline what needs to be done. We in Bord na Móna have great hope that if we can all work together on that report and the recommendations in it and the recommendations in the recent IEA review of security of electricity supply in Ireland, we will be in a much better place from a cost and infrastructural perspective in the 2030s. That is where we all need to focus.

Could EirGrid give us a perspective? There has been talk about gigawatts, megawatts and so on, but could the witnesses give us an idea of what it did last year in terms of grid capacity compared to what it will do in four years with PR6 and so on? What will it look like in 2029 versus 2024?

I thank the Deputy for the question. I might just talk about it in the context of the transmission priority projects. Those 29 projects make up over 50% of the funding for the next five-year period - the PR6 period. They are at different stages of their life cycle. Our projects do not run on investment cycles, if one likes. Of those, 16 are already consented and they are in delivery.

What does that 50% look like in terms of capacity? I am conscious that my colleague has left the room, but there is a fear out there in regard to the likes of data centres. If we do not get data indigenously, where are we going to get it from? We are going to have to import it and we will be back to square one, where we are with gas at the moment, except with data. How do we make this composition able to rely on itself in terms of capacity?

When we design the transmission system, we take all of those demand needs together, both at distribution and transmission level.

Considering the investment EirGrid will make in the next five years, will it have an issue with large energy users or an over-dependency on the grid in any way, shape or form?

I referred to the investment we are making over the next five years and the projects. Transmission projects are major infrastructure projects so they take considerable time. The reality is they are taking too long. The projects that we have in the programme-----

Why are they taking too long?

There is a whole variety of reasons for that. From an EirGrid perspective, a lot of it relates to challenges we have and delays to projects that are outside of our control. The delays relate to third parties and include public acceptance, political support and delays in planning due to long timelines. They all add to the uncertainty of projects when we try to bring multi-year projects through.

Going back to my question about delivery from 2024, what will that multiple be by 2029 in terms of annual delivery of capacity for the grid? Will we be doing five times more than we did in 2024 or 20 times more? What will it look like?

In terms of projects we have a very significant uplift-----

Could Ms O'Shea just refer to capacity? I want to talk about the nuts and bolts of actual capacity in the national grid infrastructure.

What the Deputy is asking there is probably a challenging question to answer but I will answer it if I can. It means going back to gigawatts and suchlike. We need a little bit of that. We are going through a significant level of demand growth. We went from 4 GW to 5 GW in the period between 2010 and 2020. We went from 5 GW to 6 GW between 2021 and 2025. As I said earlier, at consumption level, we are going to go through a 45% increase from where we are now to 2034. That is a 45% increase in the volume of electricity the State consumes. That is what we are building the transmission system to accommodate.

I am conscious that it is very technical. First, is there any risk or cause for concern that we would have a blackout similar to what we saw in Iberia?

No. We manage-----

Is there any reason we would have to turn down investment as a result of a lack of infrastructural capacity here?

We have a certain set of criteria already today that require certain types of FDI, like data centres, to bring different assets along with them-----

I appreciate that, but by 2029 is there any reason we would turn down investment in enterprise due to infrastructural deficits?

No, what we are looking at though is a transition towards a different model of delivering the infrastructure. The Large Energy Action Plan that was published yesterday was about moving that towards one where we can co-locate that demand for FDI with our generation sources and in areas of the network that can accommodate it.

The final part of the jigsaw is whether we will see lower bills due to increased supply.

What we are really looking at when we accommodate renewables, etc., is reducing dependence. As we look to the future, taking into account, for example, gas and its influence on our electricity price, if we build out the renewable indigenous resource, we are providing energy independence for the State. That is a really important piece that we are buying, which is around the stability of our energy supplies and costs. What we are looking to do is to remove the external factor more and more out of our electricity bills. That is the important piece that we are buying in making that investment.

I thank the witnesses for coming in. It has been a very interesting discussion. We know we have a target of getting 80% of our energy from renewables by 2030. Do the witnesses think that target is achievable under the current trajectory? I am a TD for Limerick city. We have the Shannon Estuary, and we had the Shannon Estuary Economic Taskforce's report. The report was a comprehensive piece of work, but there was a feeling in the region, particularly during the previous Government, which, ironically, the Green Party was part of, that there was a slow-walking implementation of the recommendations of the task force, particularly around the DMAP process. We know the process will conclude by the end of 2027. Do people believe we need to hasten this? Have we missed a trick in our decision to hold off on supporting this floating technology until the 2030s? In the mid-west, we feel there should have been much more expedience and urgency on the part of Government on that given when we see what has been done in relation to offshore wind in other countries. We only have to look at Scotland as an example. Can I also get an update on the cross-Shannon cable project?

Bord na Móna takes the view that at this point in time it is going to be extremely difficult to hit the 2030 target. It requires the delivery of 22 GW of the type of intermittent renewable capacity I referred to between now and 2030. That is probably not achievable in real terms. Bord na Móna believes the State's energy policy needs to focus on making sure we deliver that capacity as quickly as we can in the 2030s. We think it can be delivered in the early 2030s, if the recommendations in the accelerating infrastructure taskforce and the IEA review are followed and implemented.

As a member of an organisation that has been involved in the offshore development space over the past number of years, Ireland has an incredible opportunity to deliver offshore wind energy. We all know that. Deputy Tóibín referenced the fact that we do not have any offshore turbines operating in Irish waters right now. Our view is that there are some tremendous, fixed bottom sites around the coast. The cost of developing these sites would be lower and there is more recognisable and understandable technology available. They will probably be developed first and the floating piece will come later. We are of the view that floating developments could afford Ireland an enormous opportunity in the 2030s from a technology perspective.

In the mid-west, we feel that there was an awful lot of time and effort put into the estuary task force report and then it seemed to us that it sat on a shelf. We have enormous potential, particularly from an economic point of view, to transform the Limerick, Cork and Clare area because of the potential of offshore floating wind development on the estuary.

Unfortunately, the offshore sector globally has taken a bit of a battering. For example, we have seen a lot of projects being cancelled in the US. There have been a lot of supply chain issues and challenges even in the North Sea rim around Scotland. The offshore wind sector is going through a reset period. As a result of that, technologies such as floating offshore have probably been pushed out a little bit. Bord na Móna's view is that the opportunity is there and it will come. To us, it is a matter of time. The opportunity for fixed bottom developments is the one the State will pursue first because it is more economical, but our view is that floating offshore developments off the west coast is a reality. We have got to get the onshore stuff, such as the grid and so on, done first. If we get towards the 80% target and then we will really see the opportunity for floating offshore developments beyond that.

I will respond to the Deputy's question about the cross-Shannon 400 kV cable. The needs case for the project is to integrate a large volume of wind-generated energy from the south-west of the country. The project is fully consented and it is in delivery with our partner, the ESB Networks. I understand that the tender preparation is under way and it has a target energisation date of Q4 2028, which is on track.

I came in after the witnesses' opening statements because I was at meetings in my constituency. I might just pepper them with a few questions. What is the feedback on the energy issue from a foreign direct investment perspective? Is there a question mark around people investing in Ireland?

When our clients are engaging with us, they have to look to see what infrastructure is available and what is planned so they can meet their business needs now and into the future. Yes, they ask questions. Many of our client companies are also investing in sustainability themselves, but when it comes to looking down the road, they have to do that analysis. From a competitiveness perspective, it is important that they review it and they look at other locations around the world when they are doing that.

Is Ireland seen as a place where energy capacity is a serious constraint?

It is certainly seen as a location where we have work to do. That was demonstrated in the series of policy announcements and statements made this year and last year and in the great work done by the Accelerating Infrastructure Taskforce and its action plan. However, the most important aspect of all of it today is the cost of electricity. We are one of the most expensive countries in Europe. It is also important that there is a speedy execution and implementation of the actions in the policy documents and the commitments made this year and last year. Seeing swift delivery is a key piece.

Ms Buckley referred to infrastructure and the cost of electricity, which is something that Mr. Reilly also spoke about. I have heard people speak about the age of our infrastructure and someone at another meeting said it was not an issue. I get contrasting messages and I am a bit confused for a number of reasons when it comes to energy. I want clarity on it. Mr. Reilly said that our ageing infrastructure is an issue when it comes to the cost of projects.

It is not the ageing infrastructure. We are quite lucky in Ireland to have a relatively young grid.

With regard to infrastructure, what is it then?

It is the deficit.

Is there not enough of it?

Exactly.

Is there a lack of space?

Exactly.

Okay.

In simple terms-----

That is what I wanted to clarify. The infrastructure is there. We have a good barn in the farmyard, but we need another couple.

One hundred per cent.

Do we have the capacity to store the energy we are producing? We are producing all this renewable energy. As Mr. Reilly said, if the wind does not blow, the lights do not go on and the sun does not shine during the night. We do not have enough capacity.

Yes.

We do not have enough space for storage.

To make optimal use of what we have-----

This relates to the back-and-forth the Chair was correctly having with Mr. Reilly-----

Yes.

-----and that is where the 22 GW comes in.

Exactly. That is what is needed to deliver an optimum system. If in any sphere you do not have an optimised system, it will be inefficient, obviously, and more costly.

To go back to my farmyard analogy, enough hay would fit in one hay shed but four are needed. You need to keep three spare.

Let me give a very simple analogy using the motorway network. We believe in BnM that one of the biggest contributors to economic growth and development in this country over the past 25 years was the delivery of the motorway network, including the M1 to the North, the M3 to my home county, Cavan, and the M4, M6, M7, M8 and M9. These were very difficult projects in their own right to deliver at the time, but their economic benefit has been incredible. We need to consider the electricity network in exactly the same way. Interestingly, there was in 2010 a plan called Grid25 to deliver the high-voltage network corridors. For a variety of reasons, they have not been delivered, which has contributed in part to the deficit. We are not suggesting for one minute in BnM that if we had got the electricity motorways to the north, west, south and south west, all the problems we have today would have been solved, but a significant number of them would have been. The modelling and assessment show that electricity prices in Ireland would be lower. That is where the State’s energy policy is grounded.

What would that infrastructure look like physically?

Effectively, it would be analogous to the M1 to the North. It would entail delivering a North-South line, the 400 kV backbone. If we delivered a high-voltage electricity motorway to the North-----

What would that look like?

The North-South interconnector. It would mean pylons. If there were another line to the west and another to the south, as in the plan in 2010, it would not be perfect but it would be a damn sight better than what we have today. This is all in the excellent report of the International Energy Agency published just before Christmas, which I recommend the committee consider.

I am conscious of time. I thank Mr. Reilly for the detail. He will find many questions are being asked because there is a deficit of understanding, to a degree.

Sure.

Somebody said there is no offshore renewable energy in Ireland, full stop. What is the equivalent in Scotland and Wales? Do not get me wrong, I do not fly too much to the UK and back, but I see energy infrastructure when flying over Wales. When you look down, all you can see are what look like skyscrapers. What amount of energy is coming from these in Wales, for example?

I would not know off the top of my head. The installations would be the size of------

There is 5 GW of offshore energy generated in Scotland.

What do we need?

Our current target is 5 GW. It is effectively to do what Scotland has done over the past 15 or 20 years.

We have had tenders. What is the status of those? Did we not have tenders for offshore generation?

We have had two auction rounds for offshore.

I am sorry. I did not mean to say “tenders”.

We have had ORESS 1 and also, for the south coast, Tonn Nua, which concluded just before Christmas. The phase 1 projects are along the east coast and they are being developed and delivered by the developers themselves. The Tonn Nua auction was seen as a positive sign of the investment-----

What about the west coast? Was there a project for the west coast that got sidelined?

It was in one of the initial phases in terms of phase 1. It goes back to a point Mr. Reilly made earlier. It was decided not to continue. The auctions and policy environment focused in the first instance on seabed technologies.

Is there a risk in choosing the lowest bidder in an auction? I refer to circumstances where things go slightly against that bidder. Mr. Close used the word “developers”. This scares me a little. A team can be put together and can obtain private equity of, say, €1 billion or €500 million. It might say that if costs are of a certain amount, it will get away with it. However, if costs go up all of a sudden, as we have all seen, it will say it cannot work. Then those concerned sit on it. I am sure a deposit has to be paid. Was there a deposit in respect of the site in question?

Yes.

How much was that deposit?

Thirty million euro or so.

For the sake of a €30 million deposit, how long were those concerned sitting on things?

Two years.

After two years, one might have to start again, probably costing another €30 million to put a tender together for another auction. Would that be fair to say?

EirGrid’s role in this is to run the auctions on behalf of the Department. The Department sets out the rules of an auction and our role is to connect the developers to build the transmission system to the offshore environment for phase 2.

Sometimes there is confusion. It is interesting in that responsibility can lie in one place and then, all of a sudden, it is the Department. In the case of the Department, how can we be sure that the next time we have an auction, we will be dealing with companies that will do what they say they will do rather than leaving the State saying things have not worked, with people happy to take the hit to avoid being at a loss. With a better company and a stronger set and different gradings, the State might be in better shape. It depends. I am not casting aspersions on anyone but I am anxious to ensure we will not go down the same road again. Are we at risk of being penny wise and pound foolish with these auctions? That is my last point.

Ultimately, the developers or investors have to balance and manage the risk they see in the auction to determine whether they can deliver the projects. The Government did a really good job in the last auction in trying to de-risk things for bidding developers to make projects more deliverable.

We hold onshore auctions annually. We probably have not seen follow-through to operation regarding successful projects from those RESS auctions since 2020, but we are starting to see terms and conditions that are more favourable, helping developers to actually deliver. The likes of grid delays and planning delays also have an impact on the ultimate delivery of projects.

I share the Deputy’s point of view but the type of auction system we are running for both onshore and offshore here in Ireland is practically the same as that run right across the EU. However, that always involves a risk.

Yes, but if somebody is coming in way lower than everybody else-----

Absolutely.

Councillors see all the time the consequences if somebody does a cheap job and runs off. Where a developer has a lower price, others will say they cannot deliver for that because it does not make sense and involves too much risk. The risk is of a price increase, which puts the State behind.

Totally.

I have a point on large energy users. We now have the connection policy and action plan. If I approach EirGrid in the morning with the name of a company that wants to set up a data centre in Ireland, are we ready to rock and roll? Are there delays? Is there anything from an engagement, connection-policy or process perspective that would delay the setting-up of the centre?

If there were an application for a data centre tomorrow, we would follow the connection policy as set out by the CRU. The most recent version of that connection policy was published in December 2025. There is a set of criteria in that against which we would assess the application to determine whether we could move forward with a connection offer. Those criteria concern whether the centre would be in a constrained location in the transmission system, whether the company has on-site or approximate dispatchable generation available to support the import capacity sought, at least, and whether it can meet 80% of its annual demand through renewables. There is a six-year guide path for compliance in that respect. Those are the conditions-----

The conditions are in place but are we awaiting further policies, papers, processes or anything else?

In the December paper, both system operators – EirGrid and ESB Networks, which operate the transmission and distribution systems, respectively – have been tasked with setting out, by 31 March, what the application process will look like, taking account of the new developments in this direction in December 2025 and setting things out for data centre developers so they can understand how they apply and how we will consider the applications.

Will that deadline be met?

Yes. We are working towards it.

From an IDA Ireland perspective-----

May I clarify something? I want to elaborate slightly on a question the Deputy asked me earlier. He cut me off when reference was made to the Iberian peninsula. I said the risk is low. A system operator manages many things on the transmission system on a day-to-day basis. Given the generation sources and a lot of demand, no system operator can ever give a cast-iron guarantee of security of supply, but the investigation into what happened on the Iberian peninsula is ongoing. It is being carried out by the European Network of Transmission System Operators for Electricity. It regards us highly enough to have some members of our organisation on the investigation task force. Learning what the incident might mean for other system operators around the world is still ongoing. I just wanted to clarify for the Deputy that, in terms of the Iberian peninsula, the learning is ongoing.

It is just to give a reassurance of security.

We manage it absolutely on a day-to-day basis but that is ongoing.

Okay. From an IDA perspective on this shifting opportunity with data centres, in my eyes, there are going to be enterprise parks aligned and associated with them. Is the IDA looking at a strategic business case to try to seize the opportunity around data centres and everything associated with them?

Currently, we are very conscious that they are a key part of every aspect of business. They are hugely important as a piece of the ecosystem.

We will obviously need investors to invest in them. We will have to go look for them.

Currently, there are a number of companies that have an interest in data centres already established in Ireland. That is part and parcel of what the large energy users action plan, LEAP, is about. The CRU policy is also focused on the large energy users. Without a doubt, ensuring that we can be attractive is critically important. There is a roadmap now towards which companies that are interested in establishing data centres can now move. That is critically important. It will take time but obviously, the execution, etc., is critically important. There is a roadmap now for data centres aligned with renewables and co-location, etc.

I wish to back that up. I made reference in our opening statement to our project in the midlands, which is located in Deputy Clendennen’s constituency in County Offaly. I am delighted to say – it is no secret – that the big technology company is AWS. It is working very hard with us to deliver a large data centre in the midlands, provided we can deal with all the issues we have talked about today. The publication of the large energy user policy allows that project now to move into the next phase. The next 12 months will be a critical part of that. We have to be able to prove to AWS and other companies that wish to do business in Ireland that these action plans we have will solve this problem, which is solvable by the way. We need to get on with it now and solve it. We will work exceptionally hard to deliver that project in conjunction with the two parties that are here today. It could be a groundbreaking project for Ireland Inc and the midlands. Rest assured, we are absolutely laser-focused on delivering it.

Offaly is open for business and hopefully we see many more companies coming in with billions of euro of investment.

Hopefully.

Similarly - I can use the name because it has been publicly announced - Microsoft is looking to establish a data centre outside Naas, County Kildare. It has planning permission for same. All of this, both for the existing companies that are interested and also for the future, it is a critical piece of infrastructure for all sectors right across the board. Perhaps Dr. Kennedy might wish to contribute with regard to the sustainability side.

I thank the Deputy for the question. The new policy sets the direction and that is exactly what our clients were looking for. It also sets the process in which to apply. Rather than focusing on what might happen in the future, the digital infrastructure, including data centres, underpins our whole technology sector. That is increasingly becoming more cloud based. It is a very large employer. Some 140,000 people are employed in that sector in Ireland, which is around 6% of the national employment.

When we think about data centres themselves as a key component of our technology and the businesses that are here, there are roughly 16,000 direct employees within those companies. The data centres, the small co-locater providers and all of these are really important. A lot of the challenges we are experiencing in terms of our electricity demand that we have been talking about for the past couple of hours are not unique to Ireland. This is what we are seeing across all our member state partners in Europe. That is worth bearing in mind.

As Ms Buckley outlined, we are looking forward to timely execution of the policy. Our clients are looking for that policy certainty and that is something they find attractive about Ireland because of that policy certainty. They are now looking for timely execution of that policy.

I thank everyone for their very open responses to our questions. I have a couple of observations and one question for the IDA. The observation I have is that if we have learned anything from the accelerating infrastructure report and from talking to the witnesses today, it is that we need to have collaboration and co-operation between all the organisations and groups, not just the people who are sitting here at the table but also those outside of that as well, such as the major infrastructure players in the country, including councils. I know the witnesses' organisations already negotiate with councils but it needs to happen. It should not be a tick-the-box exercise where companies say, “Yes, it will happen”. It needs to happen and it is very important that it happen in order for us to progress at the pace we need in order for the country to grow in the fashion we want it to grow in.

My question for the IDA relates to what Mr. O’Reilly already said with regard to AWS and its plant in the midlands, Rhode Green Energy Park and so forth. Corporate social responsibility and environmental responsibility were mentioned. Companies want to be seen to be doing that for their customers and the planet. Given the number of wind turbines and solar panels that have gone into the midlands, in Offaly in particular, it would be nice to be able to say to people that companies will locate beside these as opposed to somewhere else where the energy would be produced and then fed by the grid to them. It would be nice to be able to say that to people given how much they have contributed.

In the past, the midlands and Bord na Móna had a huge connection. Now we have BnM. That connection amounted to a lot of employment. Now that Bord na Móna is gone, however, that employment has also fizzled out, and it is the same with the ESB and the power stations. A huge number of towns and villages in Offaly and the midlands developed over that period. The only reason the wind farms and solar farms started in that area was that the grid infrastructure was there at that time because of the history of the power production. It would be nice if we could get companies to locate beside those wind farms. Mr. O’Reilly talked about Rhode Green Energy Park and there is another private one being talked about as well at the moment. It would be good if we could tell our constituents that, because of the sacrifice and what they have put in, they have now got something tangible in the area that will allow them to stay, work and live there.

From what we see from the CRU large energy user connection policy and the large energy user action plan, LEAP, published yesterday from the Government, that is the intention. It is to try to move towards a model where large, energy-intensive users locate in closer proximity to renewables in particular. Offaly, in the Deputy’s constituency, has now joined the top three counties for renewable energy production in 2025. That should be a seen as a magnet for investment. The role of BnM, formally Bord na Móna, in this regard is to facilitate the infrastructure that can support large foreign direct investment, FDI, and large multinationals to come and locate here. If we do that properly, we will close the loop between putting large infrastructure and large wind turbines in a county and the jobs and investment that come on the back of them.

In fairness, we have received support from the local authority in Offaly. The fact that Offaly is close to the top of that league has a lot to do with Bord na Móna. We put a lot of the infrastructure in place there, not on our own, but a lot of it. The chamber and council in the county have been incredibly supportive of that very principle. Bord na Móna and the peat days are over but that does not mean that prosperity for the midlands has to stop. BnM is still an energy company and we are working very hard to bring new energy and jobs, not directly but indirectly, to the midlands. I wish to put it on the record that the local authority has been incredibly supportive. EirGrid would say the same thing and I know AWS would say so as well. That is the sort of spirit of co-operation we need to solve these infrastructure problems and get moving.

I will add to that. The IDA does not work on its own. We absolutely need to be able to collaborate and work together across infrastructure providers and government in order to be able to deliver for FDI. I remind the committee that Ireland is a great place for foreign direct investment. Last year, we had the highest number of investments that were ever recorded by the IDA, at 323 investments. We now have over 312,000 people working in FDI. That is the highest number ever. Of the 323 investments, 57% of those went to locations outside of Dublin. I reiterate that we are in a great place today. What this is about is making sure we are highly competitive for the future.

To go back to that question I asked about locating companies beside energy production, is that something that Ms Buckley thinks companies will be looking at when they are locating in Ireland? Would they like to locate to where the power is being produced as opposed to being away up the line and fed by the grid?

I am conscious that they would be very supportive of renewables and of using renewables in their activities. We have seen that with the number of sustainability investments that were approved and announced, and which we approved last year, with 31 investments and €1 billion in commitment. There is that. I do think they are very focused on renewables. It is something they will want and will be keen to contribute to.

The large energy users action plan really sets the framework in terms of attracting that type of investment . It is not just about data; it is about these energy-intensive industries in semiconductors, in AI and in pharmaceuticals. It would be great to have the option of both and to co-locate or, if necessary, to be able to have private wires linked to the private wire policy and to engage with solar photovoltaic or wind to help in terms of production. We are seeing large investments.

The very start of the Deputy's question was around the environmental responsibility of FDI clients. Many of them have low carbon or net-zero targets for 2040 and 2042. They are environmentally conscious, but, as Ms Buckley outlined, last year we saw record levels of investment. That level of investment is mainly around energy efficiency. This conversation has focused on renewables, but, ultimately, it is around productivity and competitiveness relating to industry. Green electricity is hugely important. Low-carbon heat is extremely important to our FDI clients. Whether it is co-located beside data or renewable generation or whether it involves a more vibrant and interactive grid in terms of delivering that, both of those solutions are aligned to the needs of industry.

For a second I thought I had stumbled into an Offaly County Council meeting, given the fact that council's new CEO and finance director have come over from Kildare County Council. I know both of them probably better than these two lads. I will be able to give the witnesses their mobile numbers after the meeting. They are two great people, so you are going to be fine.

Is the Deputy talking to me?

No. I will say nothing about you two.

I will just touch on a few points. With the private wires legislation, what are the views on that?

We would be supportive of that-----

Does Mr. Close think it would benefit the industry?

Yes. It has solutions. We have engaged with the Department in the development of that. There are solutions that private wires can help provide in terms of connections. The policy environment acknowledges that it is probably most efficient to use the existing transmission system where possible, but it absolutely has a role to play in the overall solution.

Reference was made to the 31 March deadline. The witnesses obviously have to put the word out, but do they think it will happen before 31 March? Will it be on 28 February? I will not hold them to anything, but, instinctively or intuitively, what do they think?

There are two things within that. We need to look through and digest all of the detail in that direction that is coming from CRU and put together a plan regarding what we need to do in order to set out the connection policy for ourselves and in the context of its application. It will take some time to do that, so I would not commit to anything earlier than the deadline we have been set at this point, at least until we understand the position fully. The other point is that we also have to come up with a methodology around how we publish demand availability or that information to applicants as well. There are two things being asked of us in that deadline. There is quite a bit of work for us to do within the time, so I will not be committing to anything.

In fairness, the deadline is fast approaching. I am under no illusions.

Ms Buckley referred to a number. Did she mention the number of people employed in the context of FDI?

Yes. Some 312,000 are directly employed.

By FDI companies.

Within FDI.

What is the number?

It is 312,000.

How many of those would be US based?

How many of those people?

Apologies. How many of the companies are US based?

It is about 60% of our companies. There are 1,800 companies that would be from the US.

I wish to come back to the question of price. Obviously, we are talking about the need for increased capacity. What will be the knock-on effect there? What will be the price? If we increase capacity is it in order that we can store solar and wind energy as opposed to having to buy the gas from abroad? Is that the nub of the issue?

It is not just about storage; it is about transporting energy and using it more efficiently when it is generated. Electricity is quite challenging and expensive to store. One needs to use it when it is being generated. When the wind is blowing, we need to get the power from wind farms onto the network and out to the customers. If they can get electricity that is generated by wind, we do not have to burn as much gas. It is that straightforward. From a pricing perspective, getting that system to operate effectively in an optimal way will, in our view, reduce prices. The studies are there. One thing is absolutely certain: consumers in Ireland are spending €1 million every hour today on importing gas.

One million euro an hour.

Yes.. I am not disparaging gas. Mr. Close made the point that gas will be a very important fuel as we go through this energy transition. We need to move it, however, from where it is 45% of demand now to where it will be 10% or 15%. That is the core element of the policy. In order to do that, we need to build infrastructure and get wind farms onshore and offshore working efficiently. The studies show that if we do this, prices will come down.

In one of my previous capacities, I was the CFO of a solar energy company. From a residential perspective and given the impact we can have on farms, is there anything that we can do to try to expand that? How would the witnesses see their role in that. We can see the impact in individual homes. If we extended the roll-out-----

The domestic piece is not an area that BnM is involved in, but one can absolutely see the benefits across the system. Again, a solar panel on the roof of a home or a business is a bit like a private wire. One does not need to use the electricity network. When the sun shining, one can be consuming that electricity domestically. On the steps we have made, in fairness to the policymakers, the regulator and to the supply companies, the fact that we can now export that electricity onto the grid and get paid for it is a no-brainer in many ways. We can see the benefits of that across the electric power system today. Sadly of course, the sun does not shine at night-time. It also does not shine a lot in winter.

It still has a bit of a role to play.

It has a role as part of a diverse energy mix for sure.

And it is quite well correlated with wind.

Absolutely.

We get higher wind speeds in this country, and a higher wind output from September through to March. Solar is then a good bedfellow to kick in.

And solar kicks in too on frosty days in January.

It does.

On the energy pricing point, Wind Energy Ireland publishes information every month on the impact that wind has on electricity or energy wholesale prices here. Over the period from September to March, every day the wind blows, prices are reduced by 30% and 50%.

To Mr. Reilly's earlier point-----

Mr. Kelly is referring to the wholesale market, not the consumer.

It is the wholesale market. That market is really important because gas, while it only contributes 25%, sets the price about 80% of the time. So every-----

What does Mr. Kelly mean when he uses the phrase "sets the price"?

It is the last unit that is connected. There is a stack of demand, let us say 5GW or 6GW, and that demand is met from sources like wind and solar, which are zero cost. They are first. Then the next units start to be added in to meet that demand. That is typically gas, which then sets the price for the consumer.

That is down to market design. Ireland's market design is a common design across Europe. It is the most efficient way of delivering energy. The key thing is if we can get wholesale prices reduced significantly, and not just on an intermittent basis, that will have to, it should and it will transfer to consumers' bills. Again, the State's policy of getting gas out of the fuel mix is the simplest thing we can do in order to reduce prices.

Obviously, some countries are way behind us but some are not. Will the witnesses indicate perhaps one or two countries that should act as models for Ireland and which they are seeking to emulate? Surely we are not reinventing the wheel. Which countries should we be seeking to emulate over the next ten years?