I welcome everyone to this session. I will read some formal notices. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of the place in which the Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit members to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting.

I propose that the petitions considered by the committee at this meeting and previous meetings will be published and that the replies from the Departments will also be published. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Our first petition is No. P00009/25, to amend the Child Care Act 1991 to provide HIQA with the necessary powers to sanction Tusla, the Child and Family Agency, when it fails to meet its statutory obligations. As can be seen from the report, a substantial amount of correspondence has taken place. We have correspondence from HIQA, and my proposal is that we forward this to the petitioner for their comment within 14 days. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The second petition is No. P00027/25, to make divorce affordable. This is a petition submitted by Ms Vanya Uzunova. As she describes in her petition, it is one of urgent public interest. It has to do with the cost and the time divorce takes. We have some correspondence from the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration. The proposal is that we will forward it to the petitioner and that we will also publish it. I will ask the secretariat if we could perhaps look at holding a hearing on this matter in the coming weeks because I do think it is a subject of interest. If you talk to anyone who has been through it, it is sometimes very hard to understand the level of expense. I think this might be something that we as a committee, and not me personally as a wife, might have a marginal rate of interest in discussing. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Just on this, is it possible to delve into what is driving the costs? I know it is said to be legal costs, but that is very broad. A cost of €25,000 seems extremely excessive. I would love to know what is making the cost so high and out of reach for so many people and leaving them in unhealthy marriages.

I think that may be a question we address to the Department, but also to the petitioner themselves if they came in. We might be able to get that picture. I am fairly sure, as is the case with all these things, that there is more than one side to the tale. There is no disputing, though, that for some people, and for reasons that might be unique, but I do not know, it can cost what would seem to be an unusually high amount of money. For that reason, I think it is something worth exploring to get the facts.

It is the case in other jurisdictions, in the US, for example, it is so simply done that you can buy divorce papers in a supermarket. I am not saying we are going to go down that road, but I do not understand the high costs here.

Yes. A very good friend of mine, Ms Mags O'Brien, wrote the guide to the DIY divorce, but that just does not seem to be in vogue any more. She wrote that many years ago. Perhaps this might spur her on to republish it. I do not know. For the moment, the proposal is that we will publish the response from the Department and that we will forward the correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The next petition is No. P00030/25, to end Ireland’s blind deportations. The petitioner has emailed TDs. The committee has written to the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration and we have a response. The proposal is that we forward that to the petitioner and that we publish it. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The next petition is No. P00065/25, safeguards for section 19 supervision orders. This is a petition submitted by Mr. Stephen Bernard McElligott. There has been an exchange of correspondence. The secretariat has written to Tusla. We have a response. The proposal is that we will forward that to seek the views of the petitioner and publish the correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The next petition is No. P00066/25, Heatly Place residents and punitive measures by Tuath and Dublin City Council. As we can see, there are clearly very strong feelings here. We have written to Dublin City Council and we have a response. The proposal is that the correspondence from Dublin City Council will be forwarded to the petitioner and that we will publish same. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Our next petition is No. P00067/25, that someone presenting as suicidal should not have to go through A&E and to establish mental health A&Es and 24-7 crisis care centres. It is a timely one given we had a debate about this subject in the Dáil last week. It is in the name of Mr. Joe Loughnane. The petition states that someone presenting as suicidal should not have to go through accident and emergency and that mental health accident and emergency departments and 24-7 crisis care centres should be available. This is very dear to Mr. Loughnane's heart. I have heard him interviewed and I note that he has made himself available to inform the Oireachtas of his own family's experience and the tragic loss of his brother Adam. Do the members have any views on this petition?

I was dealing with one constituent last night. They went to the A and E, and they were in there for 13 hours. It was a cardiac issue and everything is good, thank God. I know, though, from being involved with the charity Tiglin, which I helped to co-found, that you are dealing with people who have complex needs. Equally, when mental health issues are a part of a process, it makes it so difficult. If somebody is suicidal, to ask them to present at an A and E and then wait for hours is unforgivable. This should be a priority to address.

I thank the Senator very much.

I agree. I think it is a very important issue, as we all know from our own constituency work and from knowing friends and families experiencing particular difficulties. I have been made aware in my constituency of a model of care that worked very well in Sligo-Leitrim. I think it won some award. It is a crisis resolution service model of care. I have raised this issue with the HSE at local level in regard to getting such a service in my own area of Cavan-Monaghan.

I submitted a parliamentary question to the Minister, Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill. The response stated that there has been a rolling out "of a range of out of hours supports for people experiencing mental health difficulties as alternatives to Emergency Departments", quite rightly as Senator McCarthy said. The response went on to state that, "I am keen to accelerate the pace of change so there are real alternatives to emergency departments and more appropriate treatment environments for people in mental health distress." Very importantly, the response continued by stating, "This includes the Crisis Resolution Services Model of Care."

I spoke to some of the practitioners and to those whose family members had benefited from access to the service in Sligo-Leitrim and they were particularly praiseworthy of it. The Minister replied further to say that, "The model of care for Crisis Resolution Services was developed as a direct recommendation of Sharing the Vision, Ireland’s national mental health policy", which is more than 20 years-----

Yes. There was A Vision for Change, and Sharing the Vision is the policy that followed on from it. It is all part of the same context, but it is 21 years in existence.

Yes. Sharing the Vision, the response said, "recognises that people who are experiencing mental health crises need a specialist service to provide timely brief intensive supports to keep people safe". That is what we all want to see. Some crisis resolution teams have been developed in a number of areas. My concern was with getting one in my area of Cavan-Monaghan. I again followed this up with the HSE at local level. It replied to me to say that, subject to the availability of resources, Cavan-Monaghan mental health services would be in favour of developing the existing services in line with the crisis resolution service model of care to enhance the services provided within Cavan and Monaghan. It is a timely petition.

I think it is.

I think it is an issue that we should give some consideration to. I welcome what I was told in response to my parliamentary question and what HSE told me, but we want this particular model of care. I have been informed by people, as I said, whose families have benefited from intervention in an appropriate and timely manner in a proper setting. It is to be hoped that would be rolled out elsewhere and that this type of support would be available to people who are going through a trauma or a very difficult time. I support what the Cathaoirleach said.

I thank the Deputy. I had to attend an emergency department a couple of years ago for a tetanus injection and a stitch in my finger. We would all agree it is no place to be. If people have to go to an emergency department, then there they must go, but it is very chaotic to be stuck there.

I echo the sentiments of the previous two speakers. It takes a lot of bravery to do what Joe Loughnane and his family are doing. Unfortunately, people only get to know the reality when these circumstances come knocking on their door, as I know from my personal experience. I am conscious that this issue is going on for ten years now, as Mr. Loughnane has said. There is empathy, understanding and probably anger in his submission. He asks:

How many more people have to die before a decision is made - at the top of the HSE and the Government - to fundamentally change how people who present as suicidal are treated? This isn't any one staff member's fault. I've lost my brother to the system which is understaffed, underpaid and overworked.

That is a powerful statement.

The Secretary General of the Department of Health has sent us a response. I was fortunate to be the mental health spokesperson for Sinn Féin back in 2016 and 2017 for the setting up Sláintecare and debates on the future of mental healthcare. We have done a lot of work in this area. The problem is the system does not want to change and has not changed. The Secretary General states, "It is widely accepted that emergency departments in their current configuration are not the most appropriate environment for people in a mental health crisis and that alternative pathways and therapeutic environments should be developed." This is 2026 and I have been hearing the same thing since 2016. The Secretary General says at the end of the letter:

Finally, I want to reassure you that the Department remains firmly committed to enhancing supports and services for those in mental health crisis and will continue to work on developing alternatives to emergency departments. I hope that this information is helpful in relation to the issues highlighted.

I have been hearing the same lines for ten years.

I feel for the Loughnane family and for the other families mentioned who are going through the same thing. This is what got me into politics. When I lost my two brothers in this way, and it is not too long ago, we were treated like second-class citizens. There was a guilty tag on us because there was the idea that something had happened within our family and that is why my brothers went off the scale and did what they did, or else there were accusations of involvement of drink, drugs or whatever. That is the first point. Second, I remember talking to a bangharda, as one could call them at the time, just after my first brother died. I went into a mode of apologising. I said to her, "I apologise for what you have just seen", to which she responded that this was the fifth suicide she had attended that week. She was the mother of two young children. I asked whether gardaí receive counselling to deal with this and she said they do not. That was another red flag for me.

I will not bore colleagues with the rest of it but how we as a family were treated in the coroners court and the emergency department, and the way the whole system worked, was absolutely disgusting. I can understand where Mr. Loughnane and the other families are coming from. This issue must be taken seriously. We do not need any more reviews. There are amazing people within the system who are 100% committed to doing the right thing in the right atmosphere and setting to help people. None of us is perfect and we all have bad days but some of us are lucky enough to have good friends or somebody who can just put a hand on our shoulder and say, "You are not going mad and there is help." We all have our stories and we all know people who should be alive and enjoying the benefits of life. Staff are working in a toxic environment in a hectic emergency department system that is totally unsuitable both for those trying to look after individuals and for the individuals presenting. As I said, I have been in here ten years. I would love to hear this man's story. I hope he is not afraid to tell the truth and say black is black and white is white. I thank the Cathaoirleach for her indulgence.

Not at all. I thank the Deputy for sharing his personal experience. We are agreed that this is an issue we want to pursue. To be fair, I do not recall any Member of the Oireachtas speaking against our motion on this issue a couple of weeks ago. It does not seem to be a matter of politics but, rather, a matter of service delivery. If we, as a committee, can make a contribution by pushing this issue further, we should do so. Given that the petition was submitted by an individual, Mr. Joe Loughnane, I propose that we request to hear from him at his earliest possible convenience. It will be helpful for members to have a chance to have that engagement.

We might also ask to hear from the HSE about its plans and, in addition, from people representing workers in emergency departments. I represented nurses for a long time and I know they want to help people. One does not go into nursing if that is not the case, and it is the same for doctors, healthcare assistants and cleaning staff in emergency departments. Everyone there is trying to help people but it is not an appropriate setting.

Is it agreed that we schedule a hearing as soon as possible, publish the response from the Department and forward it to the petitioner for comment? Agreed.

Petition No. P00077/25 asks that port workers be able to use the Dublin Port tunnel without having to pay a toll. We have received correspondence from the Department of Transport in response to our request on this matter. I propose that we publish the correspondence and forward it to the petitioner for comment. Is that agreed? Agreed.

That concludes our consideration of public petitions. I take the opportunity to invite members of the public to submit petitions via our online portal at petitions.oireachtas.ie. A petition may be addressed to the Houses of the Oireachtas on a matter of general public concern or interest or an issue of public policy.

Do members wish to raise any issues under any other business?

I thank the secretariat and all the case workers. We get the briefing document from them. We do not have to work through the 14, 20 or 50 pages of back-and-forth correspondence.

Yes, we are very fortunate in the people we have working with us.

I wanted to acknowledge their work.

I echo the Deputy's sentiment on behalf of the committee. Our next meeting is at 11 a.m. next Tuesday, 17 February, when we will meet in both public and private session.