On behalf of the committee, I welcome Ms Linda Ervine, Turas project manager, and her colleague Mr. Niall Páirc. I thank them for their attendance and we look forward to engaging with them on the work of Turas. At our visit to Scoil na Seolta last week, we saw at first hand the strength of challenging traditional ideas of learning and engagement. I welcome the opportunity this morning for us to build further on that engagement.

The format of the meeting is that I will invite Ms Ervine to make an opening statement. This will be followed by questions from members of the committee. Each member of the committee will have between five and seven minutes, which will include their questions and the witnesses' responses. We will go back and forth in that way. The first speaker this morning will be Senator Conor Murphy.

Before we begin, I remind members of the constitutional requirement that, in order to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. Members of the committee attending remotely must do so from within the precincts of Leinster House. This is due to the constitutional requirement that, in order to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the place where Parliament has chosen to sit. In this regard, I would ask any member partaking via MS Teams that, prior to making their contribution to the meeting, they confirm that they are on the grounds of Leinster House.

Members and witnesses are also reminded of the long-standing, parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory to an identifiable person or entity, I will direct them to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

As the witnesses will probably be aware, the committee will publish the opening statements on our website. The MPs participating in this committee session from jurisdictions outside of the State are also advised that they should be mindful of their domestic law and how it may apply to their participation in these proceedings.

Anois, I call Ms Ervine to make her opening statement. Is féidir léi leanúint ar aghaidh.

In 2011, I was given the opportunity to learn a few words of Irish as part of a cross-community women’s group with the East Belfast Mission. Ní raibh aon fhocal agam roimhe sin, ach thit mé i ngrá leis an teanga nuair a fuair mé an seans cúpla focal a fhoghlaim. I had no Irish at all before then, but I fell in love with the language the moment I was given the chance to learn it.

That experience inspired myself and a friend to attend a beginners class at An Droichead on the Ormeau Road. It must have made it obvious that we were two Protestants, because I remember the teacher telling us that another Protestant man attended there and that he was a member of the Progressive Unionist Party, PUP. I remember laughing and I replied that my husband was the leader of the Progressive Unionist Party. Due to my husband Brian being party leader at the time, the story of me learning Irish ended up in a couple of newspapers. That local interest prompted East Belfast Mission to start a beginners Irish class of their own.

Not everyone welcomed it, though. Some people were very angry that I was learning Irish. They saw it as an act of betrayal. I was shocked when someone showed me social media posts attacking me for simply engaging with the language. That, unfortunately, would be the first of many such attacks.

As I learned the language, I also began to learn about its history, about place names, about surnames rooted in Irish, and about how the language was all around us. I discovered that Gaelic is spoken in Scotland and on the Isle of Man, and that it is one of the Celtic languages once spoken across these islands. I came to see the language as a living link between the peoples and places of Britain and Ireland. The more I learned, the sadder I felt that although this beautiful language belonged to me as much as it belonged to anyone else born on this island, because of the tradition I came from I had never been given the opportunity to learn it.

That was really where it all began. I had found something life-enriching and I wanted to share it with others in my community. I left my job and went to work for East Belfast Mission as an Irish language development officer. Looking back, it was a big risk. I was living on the Newtownards Road at the time and my husband warned me that I needed to keep my mouth shut or we would have no windows. I did not keep my mouth shut, though, and thankfully the windows are still intact. Well, so far.

We called the project Turas, the Irish word for "journey". What began as a journey into a language that most people from the Protestant community had never had the opportunity to engage with quickly became a journey of healing and reconciliation, bringing people together from all backgrounds. Our motto, "ag foghlaim le chéile - learning together", captures what Turas is all about, namely, people sitting down together, learning together, laughing together, and building friendships and relationships that cross traditional boundaries. In 2012, just over 20 people attended our classes. This year, more than 800 have registered. Turas is now the largest provider of Irish language classes in Belfast.

In 2021, we established Scoil na Seolta, the first integrated school to teach through the medium of Irish. We had become interested in the benefits of bilingualism and wanted to offer this new educational opportunity to children in east Belfast. It was also very important to us for the school to be part of the integrated sector because we wanted our children to be educated together. The school, which began as a playgroup, faced significant challenges in its early days. Before it even opened, we were forced to move location due to intimidation and threats. As a result, we opened a month late. For the first four years of its existence, Naíscoil na Seolta was based in a church hall, but with support from the shared island fund, it became Scoil na Seolta and we were able to purchase a modular building and obtain a more long-term site. Sadly, even before we moved onto the new site, intimidatory banners were placed on our fence and a public meeting was organised to protest against the school. Despite these difficulties we pushed ahead. Although we lost some children along the way, we faced down the negativity by simply continuing with our plans. Today, the school is thriving, proving hugely popular, and expressions of interest from parents are flooding in.

A few years ago, we also raised funds to support people to study Irish at university. So far, 18 learners have benefited, with 12 completing the diploma in Irish at Ulster University and six going on to study Irish degrees at Ulster University and Queen’s University. Some of those learners now work with us as teachers and staff members, others work in our school, and many volunteer as mentors to support new learners.

Today, Turas is going from strength to strength because we have challenged traditional ideas about who an Irish speaker can be. Through education and engagement, we are changing the narrative, opening doors, building bridges, and creating a space for everyone to take part in this shared cultural journey.

I thank Ms Ervine for that and for going through the history of Turas, and indeed her own journey with the language. It is wonderful to hear. We will start off with Senator Murphy.

Cuirim fáilte roimh na finnéithe. The witnesses are very welcome here this morning. A bit like ourselves, I am not sure how they got out of the North to get down here this morning, but we managed anyway. I offer my apologies for not being on the visits last week. We had other compelling business here that we had to stay for. Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh are I were both very keen to go up and visit the east Belfast Irish language operation. Hopefully, we will be able to get there on another day.

Ms Ervine's evidence, or testimony, to the committee is full of courage. It is the courage to step outside that traditional boundary, look for opportunities in other areas and expand her own knowledge, and then to take on that journey in east Belfast where, regrettably over the last 30 or 40 years, the hostility towards the Irish language and towards Gaelic culture has grown rather than receded.

We know there are older Orange banners that were carried in parades on 12 July and that had Irish language reflected on them. That seems to be lost, which is a great pity. Ms Ervine's determination and her journey to try to bring that back to an area, and then the response she is getting from ordinary people on the ground, which is in stark contrast to those who are trying to create division around the issue, are remarkable. She deserves every credit, as do all those who surround her, support her and participate. They deserve a huge amount of credit.

For our part, we have no wish to see the language politicised at all. The difficulty is that when it becomes opposed and you have to fight for rights, it has to be done in a political space. That is really unfortunate. I had the same experience as Ms Ervine. I was involved in setting up Bunscoil an Iúir, which is our school in Newry. I was chair of the governors of the school when it transferred into a mainstream school. I remember us painting the classrooms ourselves. I remember the people who came originally to very dingy-looking Portakabins, including ourselves, to entrust young kids to be educated in those and then to see the beautiful school they have now. The school has grown beyond that, thankfully. We need to continue to work with it to get more space, but I understand that journey, which is a challenge in terms of funding. From our perspective, there was no hostility in terms of politics but there was hostility or indifference from the system, and it was a matter of trying to fight to serve the rights of those kids. Now my grandkids' first language in the home is Irish. You see that as the generations move. In that sense I think there is a growing interest, a growing awareness and a growing desire to be involved in Irish. As I said, I regret very much the opposition to it because this is like a tide that is coming, and people can rail against it but it is a little King Cnut-like in that they will not stop the tide coming in. I would much rather find ourselves in a space where people, if they do not embrace it as their interest, can look at it, enjoy it and be involved in it rather than trying to dress it up as a political identity as opposed to just an interest in language and culture.

We have thankfully got to the space now where we have Acht na Gaeilge, an Irish language Act, and we have a commissioner in place. I have been involved in the discussions and the dialogue around that. Our intention in that was to try to take some of the heat out of this to allow a sensible approach towards the expression of Irish in public life. The Good Friday Agreement committed to the use of Irish in public life. I wonder about the witnesses' thoughts on that and whether that would be of any assistance to them in that groundbreaking work they are doing within working-class unionist communities to try to create an interest there in something which is very enlightening.

The other question, of course, the perennial question for all organisations, is funding. What more can be done in that regard? We are due to hear a presentation from Foras na Gaeilge. I have been involved in trying to secure sufficient funding from Foras na Gaeilge for many years, but we struggle with the level of funding available in the North. We have opportunities that come through, such as the shared island initiative, to try to assist. What, in the witnesses' experience, might be more useful to try to give more sense, perhaps, of mainstream funding and to put things on a better footing in order that they are not every year wondering whether they will have the resources to keep staff in place and to keep projects moving on?

Obviously, funding for our organisation and for community organisation is a very difficult thing. I am fortunate with Foras na Gaeilge because it is three-year funding, but with a lot of the funders it is maybe only one year and you are then just continually seeking funding. Like most organisations, we have had problems where we have lost funding and gained funding. My colleague Mr. Páirc, who has become deputy manager, saved my sanity, probably, because of the level of work I have been doing over the past lot of years. I really probably burned myself out, and I think that is a danger for a lot of people, particularly in leadership in community organisations. For me, as regards falling back and losing that sort of funding, it is such a lifeline, so it is so important we keep that. Mr. Páirc's post is funded by the Department of foreign affairs, and again, I am very grateful to the Irish Government for the help it has given us.

How do we change things? That was one of the questions the Senator asked. For us, in many ways, the narrative we have been changing is really just because of the fact that we exist, we are there, we do the work, we have a presence and people are aware of us. We are not below the radar and we are not confrontational but we are there. What we have found over the past 14 years is people just coming to us because they are curious about the language or maybe have already had an interest in the language. We have given them somewhere to come to, and it is really a stepping-off point. Obviously, with how things have been in Northern Ireland, sometimes people are not going to go to west Belfast, but after they come to us they might then find themselves over in west Belfast because we are just part of the Irish-language community. We are not the Protestant side of the Irish-language community. We are not the unionist side of the Irish-language community. We are part of the Irish-language community and have been very much accepted in. However, I suppose because of where we are positioned, it is a sort of safe place for people from the Protestant community to come into and to explore what is an interest for them.

The other situation around funding, particularly with the school, and this is highly important, is that, as I said, we just about survived for a number of years in various church halls but we could not grow or develop because parents want the shiny paper and the bow. We have this wonderful gift of bilingualism and integrated education but it was tied up in an old bit of newspaper and a bit of string, and it is very hard sometimes to get people to see beyond that. Now that we have a modular building, we see the expressions of interest increase. To continue to grow, however, we have to expand and we have to have another modular building. One thing I am very aware of is that if we do not get that, if we cannot provide something for our children after next year, we will go back to being a play group. The story will never be that it was about funding; the story will be that there was no interest and nobody wanted it so nobody sent their children. For me, therefore, it is vital that we get the opportunity to grow and to develop.

I would like to bring out a few numbers if that is okay. We have done a business plan for expansion and to look at the possibility of two double modular buildings. One double modular would allow us to provide up to rang 4, probably, and to have a canteen. At the moment we do not even have a canteen. As the school grows, we will need that larger space. The cost of the building would be about £317,000, and then with enabling works, equipment and professional fees and so on, it would come to about £483,000. To do two modular buildings, which would take us up to rang 7, which would basically take our children right up to post-primary school, would cost £845,000. For me that is a lot of money. For the school it is a lot of money. I recognise that for the Government it is maybe not a lot of money, but it is the difference that can make. What the school is doing, what we have been doing in Turas in recent years, is changing the narrative. It is so important that these opportunities are there within a unionist community and people can access them if they so choose. We are seeing more and more parents who had never, ever thought about the Irish medium because it was not in their area and was not on their radar, and suddenly it is becoming a possibility. They are talking to their neighbours, their friends and other family members, and that is how things grow. We know that is what happened originally with the Irish medium, and now about 7,000 children and young people are attending Irish-medium schools in Northern Ireland.

Cuirim míle fáilte roimh Linda Ervine. Bhí mé ag léamh faoina scéal pearsanta ar maidin, agus mé an-tógtha lena turas. Tréaslaím go mór léi as ucht na hoibre atá déanta aici ar son na Gaeilge agus an Ghaeilge a chur chun cinn ina ceantar. Tá cúpla ceist agam i leith na hoibre atá idir lámha aici. Ar an gcéad dul síos, feicim go bhfuil fás ollmhór tar éis teacht ar an tionscadal atá curtha ar bun aici i mBéal Feirste thoir. An bhfuil a leithéid de phobal eile nach pobal traidisiúnta labhartha Gaeilge iad timpeall an Tuaiscirt ag teacht chuici agus ag lorg na tacaíochta agus an eolais chéanna chun na tionscnaimh chéanna atá curtha ar bun aici i mBéal Feirste a leathnú ar fud an Tuaiscirt?

Tá an Teachta ag caint faoi eagraíochtaí a bhaineann le pobail nua.

Yes, sin é.

Braitheann sé. Bíonn daoine Protastúnacha agus daoine Caitliceacha ann. We do not tend to attract many people from the new communities. I think there is a reason for that, which is that many come in and are focused on getting English. I understand that. The language is not as important to them. We have had a couple of families in the school. One of the families did not realise that we were Irish medium until after a while they said, "Three languages?" They did not continue with us after play school. That is one of the big problems. They feel a great need to integrate, so they see English as the important thing. I am aware, with the new communities, which I feel strongly about, that though they are coming in and need to integrate - and unfortunately, there is a lot of racism, particularly in working-class areas in Northern Ireland, particularly in my own community - that it is important that these people hold onto their own culture and language.

I feel it is one of the strengths of Irish-medium schools and integrated schools that we have great respect for other people's cultures and languages. There is a sad story with one of my grandchildren, who is 19 now. When she started at a local primary school in east Belfast, she told me about two wee girls in the class getting shouted at one day, in P1. I said, "Sasha, what did they get shouted at for?" She said they were speaking in their language, Polish. My heart bled for them. That is a problem that we need to reach out more into the new communities about, to let them know that we respect language, we will respect their language, and they have another language. I was speaking to a few parents in our market on the Newtownards Road recently. Some parents had Arabic and some had French. We have one French child at the moment who has French, Romanian, English, and now Irish. I do not think that enough of the new communities are coming in. I do not know if Senator Murphy would agree if enough new communities are coming into Irish medium.

There is not enough take-up. We have a substantial eastern European population in the Newry area but they tend to go into the mainstream schools to try to get English as a language for their kids, as a necessity rather than the luxury of having bilingualism.

It is interesting because Gaelscoil Lir is in my constituency in Saggart in Dublin. It is right beside a rapidly growing area and a massive new community is coming in. We have children who have never learned English who are being educated in Irish, and they have better Irish now than they have English.

We have found with the small number of children who have come in who have had other languages, with one child in the school whose first language is Arabic and another whose first language is French, that they are not frightened of other languages because they have already encountered the fact that there are other languages.

That is the beauty of Irish-medium education.

The wee one who is a French speaker had very little English when he came and he has been learning English from the other children as well as being immersed in Irish. Our staff have French too. Our príomhoide, Ciara, who is as Luimneach, teaches rang a haon a wee bit of French as well, and, my goodness, his face, because, of course, he is the saineolaí and he is teaching the other children, so they call it his language rather than French.

It is fantastic and tells us everything we need to know about languages. The other thing that we hear a lot about, certainly here, with regard to Irish-medium education, is this hang-up that special educational needs cannot be dealt with in Irish-medium education, when all the evidence suggests that they can be dealt with well. What has Ms Ervine's experience been of that?

Our príomhoide is just finishing up her master's degree on special educational needs. Another member of our staff had done a master's degree on autism. We had just been saying in respect of our own staff that it is quite neurodiverse, so it is just part of the community. We feel we are as equipped as anywhere else. They thought that my grandson, who did not end up in the Irish medium, had a speech impediment when he was quite young. We were really interested in the fact that the speech therapist recommended Irish-medium education because she said that as well as learning through play, there was a big focus on language. I found that great. I think parents are unnecessarily frightened though. One of our staff, who has a hearing impediment and none of whose siblings went through Irish medium said her mother sent her to the Irish-medium school at the time because it was small and she was a quiet, shy child with this hearing impairment. Her mother felt this was a safer environment for her, and she thrived.

I do not feel that having a special educational need should be an impediment to Irish-medium education. We need more investment in staff, help and support for that. There is no doubt about that, but that has to come. Another thing on languages has slipped my head. It will come back to me.

Mar aon le gach éinne eile, cuirim fáilte roimh Linda Ervine agus Niall Páirc as teacht isteach anseo inniu. Is daoine inspioráideacha iad a bhfuil an-mhisneach acu chun leanúint ar aghaidh leis an obair atá á déanamh acu. B'iontach an rud é Scoil na Seolta, an tsárobair atá á déanamh ann agus torthaí na hoibre seo a fheiscint an tseachtain seo caite. B'iontach an rud é an tslí ina déileálann Ciara agus na múinteoirí leis na leanaí a fheiscint.

One concern that I would have is the fact that the witnesses are such trailblazers and have achieved an awful lot in the face of adversity and intimidation, but continue to lean ar aghaidh le an-mhisneach. So much rests on the shoulders of so few. I am looking at Ciara and Andrew. They are all inspirational people in their own right. Are the witnesses happy, as time goes on, that the burden of that is being shared more equally by more people coming on board and having the same level of enthusiasm as Ms Ervine?

I absolutely agree. A few years ago, I realised that I was too much the face of Turas and that if I walked under a bus, Turas would end, because I had my finger in every pie. That was not healthy for me and it was not healthy for Turas. I am glad to say we are not in that situation now and I have a great staff team. I have many volunteers and people who are very enthusiastic. I know if I went out to pasture tomorrow that Turas would continue. The same thing has happened with the school, its set-up, founding and fundraising. Everything was done by me for the first few years and now that has changed. Ciara is a really inspirational person and fantastic ceannaire, and Áine has come in and taken over the leadership of the naíscoil. We have some really good staff there. We are trying to train more. That is why we have sent people to university and why we want to inspire more people. We are aware that not only is this growing and developing, with numbers getting larger, which means we need more staff, but we need other people to carry on. I am getting older. I will not be there for much longer. I am not going anywhere but I will be making the tea in a few years.

I need young people who will come in and take up places that I have not even imagined, that I just do not have the skills to do. We need to equip those people and we can only do that by developing things. To be honest, I had a young man working with me who I saw as probably being the next leader of Turas, and I lost him. He is now working for Ulster University. I lost him because my salary was not high enough and I could not offer him what he was worth. That is unfortunately the situation we are in. It has to be taken into consideration that not only do we need to continue to grow and develop, but we need jobs for people and we need the jobs to be well paid and worthy of people who can do a good job.

I had read a lot about what Turas was doing, and I was lucky enough to visit the project a couple of years ago and to go to lunch with Linda and Brian. I learned a lot from them.

Ms Ervine touched on the importance of funding, in particular, having people paid at an appropriate level for the work they are carrying out, and of the work being recognised. That has to be at the core of ensuring the survival of what is a fantastic project. To see na páistí ar an turas céanna agus Scoil na Seolta faoi lán seoil anois is fantastic.

Ms Ervine mentioned the cost of having the double module up to rang a ceathair at Stg£483,000 all-inclusive, and the cost of having it up to post-primary level being north of Stg£800,000. From a rental point of view, is the cost of the ground a significant ongoing cost?

Yes.

Ms Ervine might also talk about security of tenure. How confident is Ms Ervine that Scoil na Seolta will be in its current location in five, seven or ten years?

That is a good question. We rent land from Heron Bros. At first, they were a bit nervous about having us on the land because they had faced some intimidation, and things like that. Unfortunately, the rent was set very high. We had already done a feasibility study in east Belfast. Land is not easy to get in east Belfast, especially where we would be safe. There were a few places, but we would not have survived the night, let us put it that way. We also did not want to be out in what you would call “leafy land”. We wanted to be in inner east Belfast, but in a safe area.

The chance of this land came up on Montgomery Road. We are two doors down from the police station, so we felt it was a good place. It was disused and had been derelict for about ten years. It is not a massive space - I think it is just over an acre - but there is enough space to allow us to grow and develop. We originally thought we would have it for five years, which was changed to three years, but we were well into the situation then and we just had to take it. That has now been extended, so we probably have another five years on it, and that may be extended for longer. Unfortunately, the rent is high, at Stg£40,000 a year. We are hoping to renegotiate that, but we do not know if it is a possibility.

We do not have anywhere to go at the present time. There are other sites not too far from us that could be a possibility for us to move on to. There is an old school site that has been lying derelict, and it has about 12.5 acres of land. We have spoken to the Department about the possibility of going onto it. It has been earmarked for a special school, but we personally feel there would be space for both schools. We would love to be beside a special school, and it would be very useful for both entities. There is also a college just up the road from us that has been run down. There is very little happening in it now, but it is a very good piece of land. The people who are in charge of it at present would be keen for it to stay as educational land, so it is a possibility that we could move there. They are modular buildings and are movable. There is also another piece of land for sale that was originally playing fields and is not far from us, but there would be a lot of work in preparing that land. Overall, there are other options for the future, and we see that as a possibility.

Because we are part of the integrated sector, the Northern Ireland Council for Integrated Education, NICIE, has just done a development plan, which will be going to the Department. We imagine we will be getting statutory funding within the next couple of years, and it will then be up to the Department to help us move to somewhere that will allow us to grow further.

We know that is a lot of “ifs” and “buts”, but that is how we started, how the integrated sector started and how the Irish-medium sector started. The only way we can do it is to just push ahead and walk with faith. We will take any help and advice we can. At the moment, we are secure for another few years, but we will have to see what comes after that.

Go raibh míle maith agaibh, Linda agus Niall. Fáilte. I thank them for the presentation. The growth of the Irish language sector more broadly in east Belfast and beyond is a massive tribute to those like them and the sector more broadly. This is especially so given the volume and seriousness of the challenges they faced from the outset and to this day, particularly in relation to funding, sustainability and all the challenges that are maybe not unique to the community and voluntary sector, but certainly to the education sector, where those challenges should not be determining the trajectory of an initiative like this.

The growth in the Irish language is exciting and something to be positive about, particularly with the younger generations. Locally, I know Gaeláras Mhic Ardghail in Newry is oversubscribed due to the demand from people coming through the classes. Any time there is a new piece of media or art in the medium of the language, there is a peak of interest, which is fantastic. A lot of it comes from the voluntary sector in Newry, which is endearing in itself. We also see the success of the Gaeltacht quarter in Belfast and plans for one in Derry, and pop-up Gaeltachtaí all over the place. I was in one a couple of months ago in Craigavon, of all places, where there is great interest among newcomers to the language beyond the traditional base. Senator Conor Murphy referred to the appointment of the commissioner as being exciting as well, and that can sow the seeds of progress going forward. However, there is a hell of a lot more to do, particularly in relation to the sustainable development of a sector that is growing in popularity and in terms of people embracing it, but not necessarily growing in terms of the statutory support it requires to continue that development.

Ms Ervine's point about extending the school beyond rang a ceathair to rang a sé is fundamental because, at that point, what it will be doing is embedding the language up to post-primary, rather than just having it is a keen but passing interest, because the guillotine drops at whatever age and the opportunities are cut. Securing statutory funding would be central to all of that. If there is anything we can do to support that, we should do it.

I was taken by the reference in the opening statement to the sense of a shared identity and the language being used to build bridges, as opposed to silo or ghetto communities. The examples across these islands point to that. Within Scots Gaelic, Welsh or Cornish, there are examples where language has grown to a position where it transcends any political differences. Yes, there may be people who are more enthusiastic than others, but it is certainly not a barrier. That is the objective we need to get to in the North, particularly with the language.

The Irish language threatens no one. It is a cultural expression. People are interested in languages for a whole heap of reasons, but they also have deep emotional connections to them. Anything we can do to alleviate or remove stigma should be done, while defending the rights of Irish speakers and supporting the sector with adequate resources.

On the issue of funding, I would be keen to hear from Ms Ervine about the opportunities outside of Foras na Gaeilge funding, which is structured because of the dynamics that exist, and we know there are political challenges in relation to that. She referenced the shared island unit. Is there scope for additional funding through that? We had proposed in this institution the earmarking of funds for specific programmes on a Department-to-Department basis, so people were not constrained by the funding model of Foras na Gaeilge, as an implementation body of the Good Friday Agreement. There are Irish Government initiatives that have been incredibly successful, and we need to build on that. The notion of stand-alone programme funding from either the Department of the Gaeltacht or the Department of education should be explored more broadly. I am keen to hear Ms Ervine's take on that.

I would also like her broader assessment on the uptake of the Irish language outside of the traditional base. She is correct that she is not the Protestant wing of the Irish language movement. However, while the political challenges remain, there are anecdotal pieces of evidence that suggest there is a warming to the language from a broader host of people than maybe was traditionally expected. Outside of the political arena, Ms Ervine might have a comment on the warming to the sense of the language, or even a cooling of the harshness towards it, in her own experience.

There were a few points there. First, regarding the wider islands, interestingly, we had a visit before Christmas from a young native Welsh speaker. She told us that if any of our children have Welsh ancestry, which it turns out is the case, we might be able to take part in the National Eisteddfod festival. We are very excited about that. We will be doing some arts and crafts and our visitor is looking into our participation. It could be that in a few years' time, we will be taking some of our children over to Wales and joining in with that, which is interesting.

On funding, we have had some funding from the Department of the Gaeltacht. Basically, we seek funding wherever we can. One of the problems we have had with the school is that it has been very difficult to get core funding because, unfortunately, we sort of fall between the cracks. We do not get youth funding because our children are too young. There is other funding we cannot get, such as under the national lottery's awards for all fund, because we come under education. Even though we are not statutory education, in the case of the play school, and we are not being subsidised by the Department for Education, we still are unable to access that funding. That knocks us out of a lot of things, which is really unfortunate. Reading down the list of criteria, we see it is a "No", or we talk to the people giving the funding and the answer is "No, it is not going to happen". I had really great talks with the people in lottery funding and I was very hopeful but, again, although they really believed in what we are doing and they felt it is very valuable, they said education was not their priority. That is difficult. We have kept ourselves afloat very well but a lot of it has been through our own fundraising. We have had a few legacies and a few people who have wanted to help us, and we continue with talks on that.

On the shared island fund, again, we are having some conversations at the moment about that and we are hopeful there will be money coming to us. The problem is that while we are hopeful, there is uncertainty about it. What we need to do is instil confidence in parents. We have seven children in rang a haon this year and 17 applications for next year. We have 20 children in preschool this year, with applications for next year starting to come in. We do not know how many we will have altogether in preschool next year. We can see an increase in numbers and in interest. We know it will be a very short time before we have to start turning people away. That will be a very difficult day. What we do not want to do is say to parents we cannot offer their child something after rang a haon or rang a dó. We will be in big trouble at that point.

We already have plans done up for the shared island money, if it comes, and that instils confidence in parents. However, it is not guaranteed and until it is guaranteed and it is in place, there is no certainty. We must have something on site before August 2027. Next year's rang a haon will be a hybrid class with rang a dó. At the moment, we have only one classroom for the bunscoil and one classroom for the naíscoil. If we even had another room for the naíscoil, we could take in pre-preschoolers. We had 60 applications for pre-preschool last year but we cannot take them because we do not have the space, staff or money to do so. However, the demand and the interest are there.

When I started learning Irish, I probably did not have a great awareness of the level of hostility towards the language within my own community. I was not long finding that out. I remember reading some literature produced by the Ultach Trust, some of it written by my late colleague Dr. Gordon McCoy, who had worked for the trust. Others involved were Aodán Mac Póilin, Ian Malcolm and people like that. The research they had done into the unionist community was back in the eighties and nineties and coming up to the time of the Good Friday Agreement. What came across to me on the pages was the impossibility that something could get off the ground in the unionist community. Any small fledgling attempts, including one on the Shankill Road, had been squashed very quickly.

Yet, somehow or other, and I certainly do not put it down to my own abilities, we have managed to do what people thought was impossible. We must continue to develop and grow it. We are very much a cross-community effort but the majority of our learners come from the unionist community. The school seems to attract a lot of cross-community relationships, which I find quite interesting, and, again, I think that is down to the success of the Good Friday Agreement. These things must be cherished and it must be recognised that, 20 or 30 years ago, nobody thought this could happen. Nobody thought it was a possibility that 800 people would be turning up weekly on the Newtownards Road to learn Irish. The response to that idea would have been that it was just not going to happen. Yet, there it is today and people take it for granted. Journalists come to me and say they mentioned the Irish language in the Welders Club or the Ulster Arms and were told, "They do it next door in the Skainos building". Not everybody likes it but it is very much accepted.

I also am very much aware that some of my learners and volunteers and some of the people who have become my supporters are people who were extremely hostile to us at one time. They have had the opportunity to change and develop their ideas but that is only because we exist and have been allowed to grow. Sometimes, it is easy to take things for granted. Things must never go backwards and we must continue to move forward.

I thank the witnesses. We are coming towards the end of the session. I will ask a few questions and then bring in Senator Black and Deputy Maxwell. During our visit, it was really eye-opening to see what has come to fruition, as I alluded to at the time. We had met previously when Ms Ervine spoke many years ago about her vision not only for Turas but for what is now Scoil na Seolta and what has grown there. It seems a bit alien to us to have the way the language is treated by what is, it has to be said, a small minority but a vocal one. Ms Ervine has been at the coalface of that, unfortunately. Looking at the numbers, within 13 years, Turas has grown from 20 to 800 learners per week. I commend Ms Ervine, Andrew and all the team there on what is happening.

Ms Ervine has touched on the challenges in theory for the next 13 years, particularly regarding the growth of the school. Senator Kelleher mentioned the príomhoide, Ms Ciara Moore, who is a bundle of energy. I was struck by how enthusiastic and compassionate she is with the children, as are all the staff. All the committee members walked out of the school in absolute awe of their caring nature. The school is in a superb modern modular building. I understand why Ms Ervine would have the ambition to drive on and expand. There are challenges in terms of the site but, as she said, it has the capacity to grow.

In terms of the shared island initiative, that is one strand of funding. What other funding exists? I noted Ms Ervine's comment about falling short in terms of other opportunities that exist in the North, whether from the Department of Education, community funding or any other sources. What other funds exist? She mentioned the NICIE development plan and that some other opportunities may exist. Will she outline what funding opportunities exist within the North? In terms of the shared island fund, she is engaging with the Department at present, which is good. She indicated an answer is needed on that well in advance of August 2027. I would be grateful for an outline of the funding streams that exist.

We have been getting help from the Integrated Education Fund because we are an integrated school. Core funding funds Ciara's post as príomhoide. We got about £50,000 from that, which covers her costs and some costs for our classroom assistant. The rest of it we have to find ourselves.

We get pre-school education groups, PEGs, funding for the children in the naíscoil. That has been very useful. This year, we are one of the groups that has been standardised. In the North, you had to provide two and a half hours a day and the funding went to the children. There is statutory and non-statutory, and we are non-statutory. The funding is about £2,500 for each child but that rises to over £4,000 for the pilot groups that provided 4.5 hours a day and a hot lunch. That funding had to be applied for. Last year, because we could see this coming down the road, we decided to provide four hours a day at our own cost, and a hot meal. It was very difficult for us to provide a hot meal and get that in place and the meal costs more than we can take from the parents, so we had to subsidise the cost of the meal. It has been a wonderful investment, however, because we have now been picked as one of the pilot projects. From September, for every child in our naíscoil, we will get £4,000. That will bring in income, which is brilliant. The more children we get in, the more income we have to spend. That money can only get spent on the naíscoil, obviously, but it covers things like salaries, rents, heat, food and all the rest.

We do not have any funding at the moment for the school, except from the Integrated Education Fund. We do not know if we will get that next year. We have a small pot of reserves we have built up through fundraising, a legacy and different things we have managed to get. Apart from the money we have been able to get from the Departments of foreign affairs and Gaeltacht and the shared island unit, there is not a lot of money available in Northern Ireland because we do not fit the criteria. We have had a small amount of funding from Community Foundation Northern Ireland and we have had help from Community Foundation Ireland. We have also had donations from a family involved there. As I said, we keep rapping on doors and we keep asking and trying, gathering up what we can. We have enough to survive on probably for a couple of years but we need the Department to make us statutory. Once we do that, our salaries will be funded and we will be able to-----

What is the timeframe for that? I am sorry to interrupt.

The Northern Ireland Council for Integrated Education, NICIE, seems to think there could be a turnaround within 18 months. On what is holding us up, we have the development plan ready to go but because we are an independent school, we had applied to be registered as an independent school. We have temporary registration but we have to have an inspection. We did this back in August and we got a letter in August to say we had temporary registration and the inspection would be done ASAP. Andrew Irvine, our chairperson, sent another letter – I think it was around November or December – to say we were still waiting on this inspection because we needed it to go through the development plan as well. We are still waiting. There are not a lot of independent schools in Northern Ireland. I do not know what the hold-up is, I have to be honest. I also feel that, as a school, if we have not been inspected and we have charge of small children, that is not a good place to be. There should be an onus on the inspectorate to make sure we are doing things properly. We know we are but nobody has put that in writing yet.

That timeline is similar to the 18-month timeline for the decision needed in regard to the expansion plans. That brings it up around the same time, August or thereabouts.

Yes. I am working very closely with Iontaobhas na Gaelscolaíochta. It has said that even if we get the statutory funding, there will be a gap between what we need, accommodation-wise, and we cannot let that gap happen because it will undo all the good work. All the money and time that have been invested will be gone and we will lose those parents. All those expressions of interest will be out the window.

The other thing about east Belfast is that there are some really good schools. We have good nursery schools and primary schools which, I suppose, do see us as a threat because we are the new kids on the block and we are offering something totally unique. I am also aware that we are in an area that has suffered very badly from low educational attainment. We feel bilingualism is not a one-size-fits-all answer but it could be a solution. I was an English teacher. I am very aware of the problems. What we do, when we do it well, we do really well but we also fail children quite badly. Children who came to me in secondary school could barely read and write. What did we do with them then? It is really important that we have Scoil na Seolta there as an opportunity for parents within east Belfast, parents within the unionist community, who, if they choose to, can send their child and give that child that opportunity.

I thank Ms Ervine. Will she keep us informed of her engagement with the various organisations and Departments?

We will.

Last but not least, I call Senator Black.

I thank the Chair and apologise for being late. Something came up.

I pay tribute to Ms Ervine, first, and thank her so much for the amazing work she has done. I have been an admirer of the work she has been doing for years. She is unbelievable, a force to be reckoned with, and I want to thank her for that because I know it has not been easy. I also know what it is like to set something up. I have set up my own charity down here around addiction, so I know the challenges that arise but Ms Ervine has extra challenges to deal with.

I will not take up much time. I wanted to ask her a question from the perspective of the committee. How can we support her? What would she like us to do going forward to help her get support and also get funding from the shared island unit? Would she like us to write letters? I would like to have some action points when she leaves today. What can we do to really get behind the work she is doing? How can we give her 100% support? I apologise for missing the trip; I was really devastated that I could not go.

That is a brilliant question. The members are people who have influence and engagement with people who can change things and help us. It is about writing letters and having conversations. Those who have been up with us and have seen our work are able to get that across to other people. I recognise that when something is very far away and people have not been there, it can be hard for people to understand the predicament we are in. People do not really know or take into consideration how the language is in a very different place down here. I am reliant on the committee to be a spokesperson on my behalf and get this across to the right people. I do not know who the right people are sometimes. It is about knowing which doors to knock on and to say that this is such an important initiative and it needs help to ensure we do not go backwards. We need any help at all and any knowledge the members have. They have knowledge I will never have of how things actually work and who can help. I really would appreciate that.

Would it be an idea for the committee to write to the shared island unit? Could that be an action point, a Chathaoirligh? That might be the first step.

It is very important to recognise what the shared island fund has done already. The committee has seen the actual, physical outworkingss of that, so even a letter to congratulate the shared island unit on what it has done and to ask that this work continue to be funded and be allowed to be developed would be brilliant.

Yes.

Ms Ervine said she would like to establish an interpretive centre in Belfast. Forgive me if this question has already been asked. What is the process? What would it look like to set that up? Does it involve priority community engagement?

Sorry?

Maybe I am wrong here. Did Ms Ervine mention that she would like to establish an interpretive centre in Belfast? Is that something she was thinking of doing? No.

No, sorry.

Maybe I am getting that wrong, apologies. I thought I read it. I thank Ms Ervine for sharing her story. On the experience of those who, because of traditions, have limited access to the Irish language, is that something that can be monitored? Are there surveys or is that something Turas might consider?

We have. We take a tally every year. We ask people their religion, their address and all sorts of things. We have to do that for our funders. Then we look and map out where people are coming from, what their backgrounds are, what tradition they are from. One of the things I find quite interesting, where I have seen a change from when we started, is the number of "others" who are growing in Northern Ireland. That is a big thing. It is mostly people from the Protestant community who call themselves "others". I notice our numbers of Catholics have stayed reasonably similar, our numbers of Protestants have gone down a bit but our numbers of "others" have gone up massively. We know who they are and they are Protestant. I find that change interesting, where there is almost a rejection of the traditional binary identities. I wonder sometimes. Maybe more people from the Catholic community do not do that because there may be more links in with one Catholic church. Even if people do not attend mass regularly, their children get the sacraments and so on and they still see themselves as culturally Catholic. There may be a lot more secularism within the Protestant community. I do not know. This is my own thinking. It is interesting to see how the demographics are changing. Because of the Good Friday Agreement, there are a lot more mixed marriages and mixed relationships. I see areas like east Belfast where they are becoming more mixed. That has to be a good thing. Unfortunately, in some of the other working-class areas, people are maybe feeling threatened and there is a hardening of hearts. We see the racism and the other issues happening. There is still a lot of work to be done.

On behalf of the committee, I want to thank Ms Ervine in particular for her opening remarks and for answering all the questions. There is a bit of work for our committee. We take up that challenge and we will correspond with the Department of An Taoiseach and the shared island unit, informing them of our visit and of the plans Ms Ervine is discussing at present. We thank Mr. Páirc for his attendance today also.

I really appreciate all the committee's help and the invitation.

I am sorry; Deputy Maxwell is indicating.

I was delighted to attend last Tuesday and see Scoil na Seolta and Turas. It was eye-opening for me to see the school on the Newtownards Road, the friendliness in the school and the children. On what Senator Black said about the shared island unit, I know the principal and the chair of the board indicated that the school can only offer up to P1 and P2, which is first class and second class here. I know it is big enough for a Protestant family to decide to send their child but if they are only getting to P2, it is like someone here in the South sending a child to school for first and second class and then they have to look for another school to continue on. I would support the ambition with the shared island unit that we can get children up to P7 or to before they go to secondary school. That gives a bit more certainty for people that their child can stay within that setting.

Ms Ervine went out on a limb, for want of a better word, and she did meet hostility. The school has been moved a couple of times and could not set up because of intimidation. Some people have forgot that Protestantism and especially the Presbyterians tried to save the Irish language in Northern Ireland. In the 17th century, the Synod of Ulster made sure Presbyterian ministers went out around Northern Ireland and preached in Irish. In the 19th century, Presbyterianism made sure the Irish Bible was used. I got one at Christmas; we had a Bible delivered to us in English and Irish. It was a nice effect. I fully support whatever we can do with the shared island unit. The shared island unit is about getting into those hard to reach areas. That is what that money should be used for. It is great for the roads and all that, but those are the schemes and issues that need it. As I said to someone when I returned home, this is not about next week or next year. It is about ten, 12 or 15 years' time when those children grow up and go out into the world. No child is born with a prejudice. That is what their parents or their family condition them to. If we are to build peace, the Good Friday Agreement is about projects like this so that when a child grows up, it can see the other side and can be more open and more free. If we are thinking about getting a return in a year or two when we are spending money, that is not what this school is about. The return is when those children leave school and move on, and become young adults in Northern Ireland. This will bring the lasting peace that we want. I fully support what Ms Ervine is doing and offer whatever help I can give here and with the shared island unit. The school is one worthy cause that we need to really look at. I thank her for coming down today.

I again express my thanks. I am quite overwhelmed. I know the members understand. This is so important to us to come down and recognise that everybody here gets that. I really want to thank the committee for inviting me today and for any help coming forward.

I thank Ms Ervine for coming down, particularly on the day that is in it. It was not easy but she made it.

If I could give my own personal testimony, I am a product of Irish-medium education. I am from west Belfast. I never would have imagined carving a out career in east Belfast. On the testimony and exemplar Ms Ervine has provided, it is not enough to just invite Gaeilgeoirí from the traditional background like myself to come into east Belfast and teach Irish. What is more important and long-lasting is empowering Protestants to take hold of the language themselves in a way that informs their own identity. I am coming in on Friday to do St. Brigid's crosses with the kids. I think of them at ten or 20 years of age, in the future, looking back having gone to the first Gaelscoileanna in east Belfast. Let us imagine the impact it will have on creating that community. I am coming into east Belfast and we are creating a space where we are sharing a love for the language, irrespective of our history, backgrounds, culture or religion. We are creating a community linked by language. That ties us more on a fundamental level than it does with anyone outside that language community. That is the real peace-building power of the Irish language.

Fair play. I thank Mr. Páirc for sharing that. The committee's next session will start in a few moments. Go raibh maith agaibh arís.

I welcome Seán Ó Coinn and his colleague Shane Ó hEidhin, who are both from Foras na Gaeilge. We look forward to their engagement with the committee. The work of Foras na Gaeilge is a key strength in the ongoing development of our language. Through strategic planning and collaboration with communities and organisations, it has helped to expand the everyday use of the language. The format of the meeting is such that I will invite Mr. Ó Coinn to make an opening statement to be followed by questions from members of the committee. Each member will have between five and seven minutes, which is to include both questions and answers from the witnesses.

Before we begin, I remind members of the constitutional requirement that, in order to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. Members of the committee attending remotely must do so from within the precincts of Leinster House. This is due to the constitutional requirement that, in order to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the place where the Parliament has chosen to sit. In this regard, I ask members participating via MS Teams that, prior to making their contributions to the meeting, they confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House complex.

Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, I will direct them to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

As the witnesses will probably be aware, the committee will publish their opening statement on our website after the meeting. MPs participating in this committee session from outside the jurisdiction of the State are advised that they should be mindful of their own domestic law and how it may apply to their participation in these proceedings.

With that said, I invite Mr. Ó Coinn to make his opening remarks.

Tá sé i gceist agam an ráiteas a dhéanamh i nGaeilge. Táim ag glacadh leis go bhfuil cluasáin ag daoine. Thar ceann Fhoras na Gaeilge, gabhaim buíochas leis an choiste as an chuireadh seo. Is onóir mhór dúinn ár gcuid oibre agus ár ndearcthaí a leagan amach os comhair an choiste, agus tá mé ag iarraidh an deis seo a úsáid le cur síos a dhéanamh ar obair Fhoras na Gaeilge, ar na dúshláin atá romhainn agus ar na deiseanna atá le tapú againn sna blianta beaga atá amach romhainn.

Tabharfaidh mé réamhrá gairid ar obair Fhoras na Gaeilge. Is comhlacht forfheidhmithe Thuaidh-Theas muid. Beidh a fhios ag comhaltaí gur bunaíodh muid faoi Chomhaontú Aoine an Chéasta le ról reachtúil an Ghaeilge a chur chun cinn ar fud an oileáin. Tá réimse leathan dualgas againn, atá luaite sa nóta eolais a chuir muid ar fáil don choiste ní ba luaithe. Den chuid is mó, is é an tosaíocht atá againn ná deiseanna a chinntiú do phobal na Gaeilge an Ghaeilge a úsáid. Déanaimid ár gcuid oibre ar bhonn uile-oileán agus tá oifigí againn i mBaile Átha Cliath, i mBéal Feirste, i nGaoth Dobhair agus i nGaeltacht Ráth Chairn i gContae na Mí. Tá ár dtrádstóras seachadta leabhar i nDún Seachlainn, Contae na Mí. Ba mhaith linn dhá cheist a phlé leis an choiste inniu: ceist na Gaeilge i gcomhthéacs Chomhaontú Aoine an Chéasta agus ceist na bhforas Thuaidh-Theas.

Maidir le ceist na Gaeilge, tá Foras na Gaeilge go láidir den tuairim nach bhfuil na gealltanais a rinneadh i gComhaontú Aoine an Chéasta, i gComhaontú Chill Rimhinn agus in Ré Nua, Cur Chuige Nua á gcomhlíonadh agus go bhfuil deiseanna suntasacha á gcailleadh ó Thuaidh agus ó Dheas dá bharr sin. Gheall Comhaontú Aoine an Chéasta “gníomh diongbhálta” leis an Ghaeilge a chur chun cinn agus na bacainní roimh úsáid na Gaeilge sa saol poiblí agus sa saol príobháideach a bhaint. Maidir leis an staid reatha ó Thuaidh, níl straitéis Ghaeilge ann go fóill; níl caighdeáin teanga againn, níl comhaontú maidir le comharthaí dátheangacha againn go fóill; níl teacht ar an Ghaeilge ag leibhéal na bunscoile i scoileanna príomhshrutha; agus tá an Ghaeilge go fóill á plé mar cheist a bhaineann le féiniúlacht pholaitiúil seachas mar theanga mhionlaithe oidhreachtúil a bhaineann le talamh oileán na hÉireann.

Tá trí réimse a bhfuil gníomh de dhíth ina leith. Tá Foras na Gaeilge ag iarraidh an ceangal a dhéantar go minic idir an pholaitíocht agus an Ghaeilge a bhriseadh. Is pobal ilchineálach iad pobal na n-úsáideoirí Gaeilge agus cuimsítear sa phobal sin daoine le réimse leathan de thuairimí polaitiúla, chúlraí agus spéiseanna.

Agus muid ag plé leis an Ghaeilge ó Thuaidh, ba chóir dea-chleachtas idirnáisiúnta a leanúint in achan rud a dhéanaimid sna réimsí seo. Tá táscairí agus treoirlínte leagtha síos ag an iliomad eagraíochtaí idirnáisiúnta, mar shampla, UNESCO, na Náisiúin Aontaithe, Comhairle na hEorpa agus an Chomhairle Eorpach. Maidir leis an Ghaeilge a bheith le feiceáil ar chomharthaí poiblí, aithnítear tábhacht ar leith le hinfheictheacht teanga sa dea-chleachtas a bhaineann le cur chun cinn teangacha mionlaithe. Aithnítear é sin ar bhonn idirnáisiúnta. Ó Thuaidh, baintear leas go forleathan, go minic agus go bréagach as argóintí atá gan bhunús. Deirtear go mbíonn costas mór i gceist le comharthaí dátheangacha agus gurb é atá i gceist leis an Ghaeilge lena bheith le feiceáil ar chomharthaí ná bealach le limistéar a mharcáil. Níl ceachtar den dá rud sin fíor. Is argóintí bréagacha iad.

Dar le Foras na Gaeilge, baineann cuid de na deacrachtaí atá againn maidir leis an Ghaeilge ó Thuaidh le heaspa eolais agus easpa oideachais. Cothaíonn sé sin réamhchlaontaí, míthuiscintí agus naimhdeas. Is í an cheist is mó a bhfuil Foras na Gaeilge buartha fúithi nach bhfuil deis á soláthar ag an Stát ó Thuaidh go fóill do dhaltaí scoile Gaeilge a fhoghlaim nó foghlaim faoin Ghaeilge sa phríomhchóras oideachais i gceachtar den dá chóras scolaíochta ag leibhéal na bunscoile, an córas Caitliceach ná an córas Stáit.

Táimid imníoch nach bhfuil foinse iontaofa eolais ar fáil ag an phobal Protastúnach, aontachtach agus dílseora, PAD, le heolas a fháil faoin Ghaeilge. Faoi láthair, tá eolas bréagach agus díobhálach faoin Ghaeilge á scaipeadh trí na meáin. Ba mhaith le Foras na Gaeilge ionad léirmhínitheach a bhunú i lár chathair Bhéal Feirste le dul i ngleic leis an easpa eolais sin. Chuirfeadh a leithéid de lárionad eolas ar fáil don phobal faoi oidhreacht na Gaeilge, faoina stair, faoina litríocht agus faoin teanga féin. Tá an Ghaeilge á labhairt go leanúnach ar feadh 2,000 bliain agus corradh ar an oileán seo gan bhriseadh. Is oidhreacht thábhachtach teanga í sin agus ba mhaith linn an deis sin a chur ar fáil os coinne an phobail le go dtuigeadh an pobal sin taobh amuigh den cheist pholaitiúil, taobh amuigh de cheisteanna a bhaineann le féiniúlacht náisiúnach agus taobh amuigh de cheisteanna a bhaineann le creideamh.

Mar a chuala na baill ar ball, tá ceannródaíocht chróga agus éifeachtach á déanamh ag Turas in oirthear Bhéal Feirste ó thosaigh Foras na Gaeilge ag cur maoiniú ar fáil don togra sin siar in 2012, ach, ar fud na sochaí ó Thuaidh tá folús faisnéise. San fholús sin, fásann míthuiscint agus amhras. Má leantar de bheith ag plé leis an Ghaeilge mar cheist féiniúlacht náisiúnta, táimid imníoch faoi cad é atá i ndán don Ghaeilge in aon socrú a bhaineann le comhroinnt an oileáin seo amach anseo. Táimid buartha go mbeidh ísliú stádais i ndán don Ghaeilge agus go mbeifí ag breathnú uirthi mar dheacracht seachas mar chuid den réiteach, mar ba chóir.

Is í an dara ceist ar mhaith liom aird a dhíriú uirthi ná na deacrachtaí leanúnacha a bhaineann leis an struchtúr Thuaidh-Theas. Tá sé aitheanta go forleathan gur éirigh le Foras na Gaeilge ó bunaíodh é 26 bliain ó shin dul chun cinn suntasach a dhéanamh leis an Ghaeilge a fhorbairt ar fud an oileáin le foclóirí, téarmaíocht, grúpaí pobail, scéimeanna tacaíochta, leabhair agus léitheoireacht agus mar fhoinse iontaofa comhairle. Ar feadh i bhfad, dhearbhaigh an dá Rialtas a dtacaíocht don chur chuige Thuaidh-Theas agus do na forais Thuaidh-Theas. Le tamall maith de bhlianta anois, áfach, is minic a fheiceann muid go mbíonn deiseanna suntasacha á gcailleadh de bharr an chur chuige Thuaidh-Theas agus socraithe a bhaineann leis an Comhairle Aireachta Thuaidh-Theas, CATT. De bharr dholúbthacht na rialacha a bhaineann le maoiniú, bíonn sé iontach deacair ag ceachtar den dá Rialtas cur leis an bhuiséad. Má thiteann na struchtúir ó Thuaidh, fágtar nach féidir poist úra a cheadú, maoiniú a ardú nó tograí úra a cheadú.

Go dtí 2026, bhí Foras na Gaeilge ag plé le struchtúr eagraíochtúil agus le líon agus sainchuntas post a bhain le 2008. Is socraithe iad seo nár chuir san áireamh na hathruithe sa reachtaíocht, teicneolaíocht, acmhainní daonna ná cúrsaí cumarsáide, gan trácht ar chúrsaí boilscithe sa bhuiséad. Tá na córais an-chasta agus dolúbtha, agus níl údarás ag na forais féin maidir le foireann ná maoiniú. Bíonn srian ar Ranna urraíochta agus ar an CATT féin. Bíonn cead de dhíth ón dá Roinn Airgeadais le haghaidh gach forbartha maidir le foireann agus maoiniú. Mar shampla, de bharr nach raibh an t-údarás ag Roinn na Gaeltachta cur le buiséad Fhoras na Gaeilge le thart faoi shé bliana anuas, bhí uirthi maoiniú a chur ar fáil d’eagraíochtaí eile le hobair a dhéanamh in áit é a thabhairt d’Fhoras na Gaeilge. Tá impleachtaí suntasacha aige seo ar chur chun cinn na Gaeilge agus ar fhorbairt na heagraíochta. Dar linn, tá géarghá le fís ó Rialtas na hÉireann do na forais Thuaidh-Theas agus le Roinn ar leith de chuid an Rialtais ó Dheas le bheith mar laoch thar ceann na bhforas Thuaidh-Theas leis na struchtúir a shimpliú agus a fheabhsú agus le socruithe teagmhasacha a chinntiú má thiteann na struchtúir arís.

Cuirim fáilte roimh na finnéithe. Gabhaim buíochas leo as teacht isteach. Gan amhras, tá na dúshláin luaite go soiléir ag Seán Ó Coinn. Caithfidh muid a bheith ag smaoineamh orthu siúd i gcónaí chun dul chun cinn a dhéanamh ó thaobh na Gaeilge de. I dtosach, is mian liom béim a chur ar na céimeanna dearfacha atá tógtha againn. Mar is eol don choiste, tá muid díreach tar éis comhrá a bheith againn le Linda Ervine faoin sárobair atá á déanamh aici agus ag a comhghleacaithe, Andrew Irvine agus Ciara Moore, i Scoil na Seolta. An míneoidh Seán Ó Coinn an bhaint atá ag Foras na Gaeilge leis an sárobair ar fad atá á déanamh ag Linda agus cé chomh tábhachtach is atá an tacaíocht sin chun todhchaí na Gaeilge in oirthear Bhéal Feirste a chosaint?

Tá an obair sin ríthábhachtach. Nuair a thosaigh muid ag cur maoinithe ar fáil do Thuras thiar in 2012, d’aithin muid gur rud iontach suntasach a bhí ann. Tá sé ag tabhairt cead do dhaoine ón phobal Protastúnach, aontachtach agus dílseach, PAD, nó "PUL" mar a thugtar air i mBéarla, an Ghaeilge a fhoghlaim agus a úsáid, agus tá sé ag teacht ón phobal sin féin. Ar feadh fada go leor, bhí Foras na Gaeilge, agus eagraíochtaí Gaeilge eile nach é, ag iarraidh cur ina luí ar an phobal PAD ó Thuaidh go raibh cead acu agus gur chóir dóibh spéis a léiriú sa Ghaeilge nó go bhfuil oidhreacht shaibhir a bhaineann le Preispitéirigh agus an Ghaeilge a théann siar na céadta bliain. Tá an teachtaireacht i bhfad níos láidre nuair atá sí ag teacht ón phobal aontachtach féin, mar atá anois le Linda Ervine. Aithníonn muid go bhfuil Turas agus an togra sin ag brath go mór ar láidreacht phearsantacht Linda Ervine.

Díreach é.

Is laoch í. Tá sí an-láidir mar dhuine agus tá clú agus cáil uirthi ina pobal féin. Tá sí ábalta daoine a mhealladh chuici féin, ach níl sí ag fáil tacaíochta ó cheannasaithe ina pobal féin. Ar bhealach, tá sí ag baint an mhéid atá sí ag baint amach in éadan an tsrutha. Tá freasúra léirithe ag ceannasaithe ina pobal féin ina héadan, rud nach ndéanann a cuid oibre furasta.

Ó thaobh cúrsaí slándála agus airgeadais de, an bhfuil Foras na Gaeilge muiníneach go bhfuil muid ar an mbóthar ceart nó cad ba chóir dúinn a dhéanamh chun an obair ar fad a chosaint agus a chaomhnú?

Sílim go bhfuil muid ar an bhóthar cheart. Leanfaidh muid linn ag maoiniú an togra sin. Tá tacaíocht ag teacht ó Rialtas na hÉireann do Naíscoil agus Bunscoil na Seolta. Tá roinnt tograí i gceantair eile ag teacht chun cinn a bhfuil muid ag tacú leo. Tá togra i gcathair Dhoire ag teacht chun cinn atá an-tábhachtach, agus tá tograí in áiteanna eile. Tá an pobal sin ag iarraidh a bheith ciúin faoi na tograí sin. Níl siad ag iarraidh aird a tharraingt orthu féin, agus tuigim sin. Tá ceisteanna slándála agus mar sin de i gceist. Beidh an tionscadal atá againn in oirthear Bhéal Feirste ag fás agus ag forbairt sna blianta atá amach romhainn.

Mar atá luaite ag Seán Ó Coinn, chun an muintearas ceart a bhaint amach, caithfidh sé a bheith bunaithe ar mheas. Caithfidh muid a bheith ómósach. An inseoidh Seán Ó Coinn dúinn na dúshláin atá i gceist nuair atáthar ag iarraidh an pholaitíocht a bhaint ó chúrsaí teanga agus todhchaí níos láidre a chothú?

Is é an dúshlán is mó ná an easpa ceannasaíochta sa pholaitíocht go ginearálta ó Thuaidh. Bíonn ceannairí áirithe ag iarraidh leas a bhaint as an Ghaeilge le spriocanna polaitíochta a bhaint amach. Chíonn muid sin anois i gcomhthéacs na gceisteanna faoi chearta teanga atá ag teacht chun cinn. Bíonn ceannasaithe ag déanamh ráiteas agus ag rá go bhfuil, ar bhealach, tubaiste i ndán don phobal ó Thuaidh má thagann na cearta seo i bhfeidhm. Tá easpa mór ceannasaíochta ansin maidir le ceisteanna Gaeilge.

Ní aithnítear go raibh an Ghaeilge anseo ar feadh na mílte bliain sular tháinig na struchtúir reatha polaitíochta ar an fhód. Tá údarás na Breataine ann ó Thuaidh leis na céadta bliain agus bhí an Ghaeilge beo beathach sa réimse sin faoi údarás na Breataine. Níl ciontóireacht ar bith ann idir a bheith i do Briotanach, náisiúntacht Bhriotanach a bheith agat agus a bheith mar chuid den Ríocht Aontaithe, agus a bheith ag plé leis an Ghaeilge, go díreach mar atá leis an Bhreatnais, an Albainis nó agus Gaeilge na hAlban. Níl an teachtaireacht sin ag teacht amach, áfach.

Is fíor a rá mar sin go mbraitheann Foras na Gaeilge go bhfuil sé ag oibriú i gcoinne an tsrutha. Tá mé ag iarraidh a bheith níos dearfaí. Cé hiad na daoine atá ag oibriú go láidir chun é seo a chur ar an mbóthar ceart?

B'fhéidir nár cheart an cheist sin a chur. Cad iad tuairimí na bhfinnéithe faoin tacaíocht atá á fáil ó pholaiteoirí ar an dá thaobh den Teorainn?

Den chuid is mó, is grúpaí pobail iad atá ag forbairt cheist na teanga sa phobal PAD. Is daoine aonair macasamhail Linda Ervine agus daoine a bhfuil teagmháil aici leo in áiteanna eile atá ag déanamh na forbartha sin. Tá cuid mhaith de na polaiteoirí sna páirtithe aontachtacha sásta a rá go ciúin go dtacaíonn siad leis an nGaeilge agus nach bhfeiceann siad gur ionsaí í ar an fhéiniúlacht Bhriotanach ach, ar ndóigh, de bharr cúrsaí polaitíochta, ní féidir leo é sin a rá amach go hoscailte, go háirithe ina gcuid páirtithe féin. Aithnímid gur deacracht í sin. Síleann muid go bhfuil crógacht de dhíth anois ó pholaiteoirí ar gach taobh, go háirithe polaiteoirí aontachtacha, lena bheith sásta a aithint go bhfuil tábhacht leis an nGaeilge mar chuid den fhéiniúlacht Bhriotanach mar atá leis an Bhreatnais agus le Gaeilge na hAlban. Cén fáth nach bhfuil an Ghaeilge ar an mbonn céanna sa Ríocht Aontaithe leis na teanga mionlaigh eile sin?

Gabhaim buíochas leis na finnéithe for their presentation agus fáiltím rompu. Gabh mo leithscéal; my proficiency in the language simply is not where it should be so I will have to convey my remarks as Béarla. The growth in the language is exciting. It is both cross-community and intergenerational. It is clear the language is for everyone although huge amounts of promotion and development are still possible and should be pursued. My local experience in Newry and Armagh is that Gaeláras Mhic Ardghail is oversubscribed. There is huge demand for language classes supported by an foras. We have seen pop-up Gaeltachts all across the county. The Gaeltacht quarter in Belfast is thriving and there are plans for Derry. The appointment of the Irish Language Commissioner under an tAcht Gaeilge is a massive step forward. It is a huge opportunity to advance the language further, notwithstanding the significant challenges that remain.

The funding model is primary among those challenges. I refer to the ratio and the constraints it results in. I am aware that proposals were brought to the Executive to allow for the Irish Government to contribute more. I know the Minister for Finance is keen to advance this, as is the Dublin Government in fairness to it. What is the current state of affairs? I know there is frustration and political blockages in relation to that.

My second point relates to what Mr. Ó Coinn said about the importance of visibility. There are international examples of jurisdictions where bilingualism or multilingualism is not just present but promoted and enhanced. I lived and worked in Brussels for nearly five years. It is a trilingual city. Nobody bats an eyelid. Looking at Welsh, Cornish, Scots Gaelic, Flemish, the Québécois, Catalan or Basque, whenever you are in these regions or states, the language is prominent. While they have their challenges, these languages remain largely acceptable and are not seen as a political issue. What more can be done? I am acutely aware of the challenge to bilingual signage at Belfast Grand Central Station. That brings us onto the issue of political identity. We need to be clear about this. When cultural identity and rights are threatened, we will stand up and defend them. It is deeply regrettable that some within the political arena still strive to stymie the growth of a language that threatens no one.

Aside from that, what are the witnesses' views on funding? Direct programme funding for things that fall under the remit of an foras is far from ideal. I accept that entirely. Do we need to get creative about access to sustainable funding outside of the constrained environment in which an foras operates? Are there other opportunities to fund programmes or work being done by an foras that are constrained because of the funding environment, perhaps through stand-alone departmental funding? This could be similar to the Irish-language books programme, which involves direct intervention by a department. Should that be considered until we have improved engagement and a sustainable funding model that allows an foras to meet its full potential and to deliver on the growth of the language?

Iarrfaidh mé ar mo chomhghleacaí Shane Ó hEidhin, atá mar stiúrthóir seirbhísí corparáideacha, na ceisteanna a bhaineann le cúrsaí airgeadais a ghlacadh ar dtús.

Gabhaim buíochas as na ceisteanna. Mar a thuigfidh an coiste, go hoifigiúil, is é an staid reatha i dtaca le cúrsaí maoinithe ná go bhfuil an coibhneas maoinithe maidir le croí-mhaoiniú leagtha amach ag 75:25. Tagann 75% ó Dheas agus 25% ó Thuaidh. Tá sé sin ann ó thús ama, ó bunaíodh Foras na Gaeilge. Is é an dúshlán a bhaineann leis sin, agus a bhain leis thar na blianta lena bheith soiléir, ná gur gá don dá Rialtas airgead meaitseála a chur isteach leis an choibhneas sin a chaomhnú. Faraor, ní raibh na cúinsí in áit thar an 26 bliana atá Foras na Gaeilge ar an bhfód chun é sin a tharlú ar bhonn leanúnach mar ba chóir le cur le bunlíne Fhoras na Gaeilge. Bhí impleacht aige sin thar tréimhse de bhlianta.

B'fhiú a rá agus a athrá go bhfuil Foras na Gaeilge tite go mór taobh thiar i gcomparáid le heagraíochtaí eile comhchosúla. Molaim eagraíocht ar bith, sa Stát ó Dheas nó ó Thuaidh, gur féidir léi dul chun cinn a dhéanamh. Tá sé sin tábhachtach ach ní dóigh liom go dtuigtear go forleathan an méid atá tarlaithe d'Fhoras na Gaeilge agus do chumas na heagraíochta an Ghaeilge a chur chun cinn. Tabharfaidh mé sampla tapa na Comhairle Ealaíon ó Dheas. Bhí Foras na Gaeilge ar an pháirc chéanna imeartha leis an eagraíocht sin. Nuair a bunaíodh an foras in 2000, bhí muid in ainm is a bheith ar an mhaoiniú chéanna nó ar mhaoiniú inchomparáide. Anois, tá muid ocht, naoi nó deich n-uaire taobh thiar di. Do gach €1 a fhaigheann Foras na Gaeilge, faigheann an Chomhairle Ealaíon €10. Tá ollthionchar aige sin ar an mhéid gur féidir linn a dhéanamh. Is mór an trua agus an íoróin go bhfuil ár lámha ceangailte ag an am go bhfuil an t-éileamh ollmhór seo maidir leis an nGaeilge ag teacht chun cinn, go háirithe ón aos óg, gur bhreá linn a bheith ag freastal air.

Agus é sin uilig ráite, ba é an cheist a bhí ann ná cad é an staid reatha. Tá meicníocht aimsithe do 2026 a ligfeadh dúinn cur leis an mbuiséad iomlán atá againn ar bhealach measartha. Ní bealach réabhlóideach é. Tá €2 milliún breise dúinn luaite leis na Meastacháin. Téann sé sin píosa beag sa treo ceart ach b'fhiú a rá go bhfuilimid fós taobh thiar den áit ina rabhamar sa bhliain 2008. Is i dtéarmaí ainmniúla é sin. Níl an boilsciú san áireamh ansin. Dá gcuirfí boilsciú san áireamh, táimid thíos thart ar 50% ón áit a rabhamar ag an am sin. Is é an staid reatha go bhfuil meicníocht faighte le muid a thógáil slán in 2026. Tá sé sin taobh amuigh den choibhneas maoinithe. Tá sé dírithe ar thionscnaimh ar leith. Ligfidh sé sin dúinn dul chun cinn a dhéanamh in áiteanna suntasacha agus tábhachtacha, go háirithe cúrsaí oideachais, cúrsaí pobail agus mar sin - rudaí atá ríthábhachtach. I ndáiríre, níl i gceist ansin ach bindealán nó réiteach an-ghearrthéarmach le muid a thógáil slán. Tá méadú suntasach ar an mbuiséad ag teastáil le gur féidir linn freastal ar an éileamh bailí atá amuigh ansin i measc an aosa óige, mar atá luaite.

Cuirfidh mé leis sin. Rinneamar moladh inár ráiteas tosaigh. Níor mhaith linn labhairt thar ceann na bhforas Thuaidh-Theas eile ach síleann muid go bhfuil laoch nó champion de dhíth sa Rialtas ó Dheas do na struchtúir Thuaidh-Theas i gcoitinne le fís a léiriú dóibh agus lena bheith ag plé leo mar thosaíocht nuair atáthar ag plé leis an Rialtas ó Thuaidh agus le Rialtas na Breataine. Bíodh sé sin Roinn an Taoisigh nó an Roinn Gnóthaí Eachtracha agus Trádála, an Taoiseach nó an Tánaiste, tá easpa ceannaireachta ann anois. Tá cineál folúis ann maidir le cé atá ag meabhrú ar an dóigh a mbeadh na forais Thuaidh-Theas ag feidhmiú sa chéad 25 bliana eile i ndiaidh Chomhaontú Aoine an Chéasta.

Tá géarghá anois le bheith ag amharc ar an mbealach le fís agus na struchtúir Thuaidh-Theas a fhorbairt don am atá le teacht.

Luadh an borradh atá faoin nGaeilge ó Thuaidh. Déanann Foras na Gaeilge taighde gach deich mbliana ar dhearctha an phobail i leith na Gaeilge ó Thuaidh agus Theas sa taighde uile-oileán agus tá na réamhthorthaí feicthe againn sa taighde atá déanta againn i mbliana, deich mbliana ó foilsíodh na torthaí deireanacha in 2015. Tá méadú suntasach ar líon na ndaoine ó Thuaidh a bhfuil dearcadh dearfach acu i leith na Gaeilge, daoine a bhfuil féiniúlacht Bhreatnach acu agus a fheiceann orthu féin mar chuid den phobal PUL. Tá méadú suntasach ar an dearcadh dearfach atá sa phobal sin ó thaobh na teanga de. Táimid ag súil na torthaí sin a fhoilsiú níos faide in am i mbliana agus is dóigh liom go dtabharfaidh sé sin léargas ar an dearcadh atá ag an phobal PUL ó Thuaidh ar an Ghaeilge. Beidh sé sin ina chuidiú arís eile do Rialtas na hÉireann.

Fáiltímis roimh Rialtas na hÉireann ag glacadh ceannaireachta i dtaca leis an gceist seo, ceist na Gaeilge. Sa phlé atá ar siúl cur i gcás le Rialtas na Breataine, tá athbhreithniú ar siúl ar chairt an BBC i láthair na huaire. Is Rialtas na Breataine atá ag plé le cúrsaí craoltóireachta. Má fhéachaimid ar an dóigh a gcaitheann Rialtas na Breataine leis an Bhreatnais, tá ceangal iomlán teilifíse agus raidió ag an Bhreatnais. Tá an rud céanna amhlaidh do Ghaelic na hAlban. Cén fáth a bhfuil difear idir an dóigh a bhfuil Rialtas na Breataine ag caitheamh leis an Ghaeilge agus an Ghaelic agus an Bhreatnais? Tá ról ag Rialtas na hÉireann ansin sna míonna beaga atá amach romhainn.

Tá brón orm go bhfuil mé ag caint as Béarla. I thank our witnesses for their remarks and for setting out the position of Foras na Gaeilge and indeed the successes the organisation has enjoyed over the past 26 years. It is right to highlight success in terms of the language. Certainly, speaking from a Dublin perspective, there has been an almost organic love of the language. The medium of education and sport through Irish has contributed massively to a complete revival and increase in the use of the language and the love of it. Being here, I have to start using it more and getting more confident in using it because it is one of those things. As with a lot of people who say they have it, comprehension is good, but I have work to do on the use of it.

I highlight two or three points. Senator Gallagher alluded to it earlier as regards our engagement with Linda Ervine. We got to see the success that Scoil na Seolta is. It has challenges in terms of growth, but so too has the language. Our witnesses alluded to that in some of their responses this afternoon. It is a pity that it is being used or seen as a political identity rather than a cultural identity. It is something that needs to be celebrated irrespective of one’s background.

What struck me most from Mr. Ó Coinn’s presentation was that, since the establishment of Foras na Gaeilge 26 years ago, it is still stuck in 2008 funding models. For any organisation, that is so rigid because of the North–South legislation it was set up under. There is a lot of discussion 28 years on about the agreement and how it can be tweaked. The core essence of the agreement will obviously be retained, but how can it be changed somewhat to adapt to the new realities of, be it funding in the case of Foras na Gaeilge, or indeed structural changes that are required North-South. In saying that, I was struck just before Christmas by the communiqué of the Minister, Deputy Calleary, and his counterpart Minister Lyons in the North and some positive news in terms of funding. There is €20 million in joint funding approval for Foras na Gaeilge and the Ulster Scots Agency. I ask Mr. Ó Coinn to outline the specifics of that funding. I am sure it is not for everything he would like it to be. There is €2 million in additional funding for Foras na Gaeilge for programmes and activities. Mr. Ó Coinn referenced that there are more online classes and engagement for new learners.

My next question is more relevant to the committee’s remit. How do we as a committee ensure that language, funding and Foras na Gaeilge’s own work is supported on the basis of what was envisaged in 1998 by the agreement, to try to celebrate, promote and increase the use of the Irish language? We would like to hear from the organisation. Mr Ó Coinn outlined a little bit in his opening statement but what else can be done to try to foster that improved relationship North and South, specifically in relation to the North-South ministerial bodies? We have had many discussions about how rigid it can be but Mr Ó Coinn’s evidence of how rigid it still is in terms of the need to try to change and adapt to the current day Foras na Gaeilge finds itself in, is important. I ask Mr. Ó Coinn to come back to me on those points.

Béarfaidh mé Mr Ó hEidhin isteach ar ball beag, ach ba mhaith liom aitheantas a thabhairt don Aire, an Teachta Calleary, as an méid atá déanta aige le cinntiú go bhfaighimid maoiniú breise. Fuaireamar €2 milliún sa bhreis ag éirí as na Meastacháin do 2026. Rinne sé féin agus a chuid oifigigh ina Roinn éacht leis sin a bhaint amach, ach ar ndóigh, tá sé sin curtha ar fáil dúinn taobh amuigh den struchtúr Thuaidh-Theas. Is é sin an pointe. Ligfidh sé sin dúinn daoine breise a fhostú.

Luaigh Mr. Ó hEidhin na deacrachtaí fostaíochta a bhí againn. Cuir i gcás cúrsaí teicneolaíochta agus an t-athrú atá i ndiaidh teacht ar chúrsaí slándála agus cibear slándála teicneolaíochta. Ní raibh foireann cheart againn le bheith ag plé leis sin. Bhí an rud céanna ann le cúrsaí cumarsáide. Tuigimid an difríocht idir 2008 agus 2026 ó thaobh cúrsaí cumarsáide agus ní raibh foireann cheart cumarsáide againn.

Sin dhá shampla de nithe nach raibh againn agus a bhéas againn anois tá súil againn. Níl gach rud réitithe go fóill, ach tá súil againn go n-éireoidh linn na poist bhreise sin a fháil. Ba chóir dúinn fosta a lua go raibh na sé cinn eagraíocht atá ag brath ar mhaoiniú Ó Fhoras na Gaeilge gann ar mhaoiniú de bharr nach raibh an maoiniú againn. Tá súil againn go mbeidh deis againn anois tacaíocht sa bhreis a chur ar fáil dóibh i mbliana de bharr go bhfuaireamar maoiniú breise. Ligfidh mé do Mr. Ó hEidhin cúpla focal a rá faoin cheist seo.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Teachta as a chuid aird air seo. Tuigim a cheisteanna go maith agus an áit as a bhfuil sé ag teacht. Is as Baile Átha Cliath mé féin chomh maith. Mar a rinne an Teachta tagairt dó ansin, tá rudaí dearfacha le ceiliúradh anseo agus ba chóir teacht uaidh an bpeirspictíocht sin, cinnte. Feicimid go laethúil agus muid ag obair, mar shampla, lámh i lámh leis an taobh eile den chomhlacht ina bhfuil muid, gníomhaireacht na hUltaise, go mbímid ag plé leo go laethúil, go seachtainiúil agus tá sampla iontach againn ansin maidir le conas is féidir dul chun cinn a dhéanamh agus muid ag obair ar rudaí thar a bheith praiticiúla agus in amanna atá leadránacha, ach ar bhealach sin an obair chiúin nach gcloistear faoi amuigh sa phobal ach tá luach agus tábhacht leis sin don todhchaí.

B’fhéidir go bhfuil cuid de na réitigh fadtéarmacha le haimsiú sna comhráití agus san obair bheag chiúin sin. Is ceist í sin do lá éigin eile, áfach.

Maidir le samplaí praiticiúla - luadh go háirithe an CATT - feictear dúinn go bhfuil smaoineamh agus athmhachnamh le déanamh ar na struchtúir sin. Tuigtear dúinn go bhfuil foireann breise faighte ag an CATT le déanaí, rud atá thar a bheith dearfach. Is é ceann de na rudaí a fheiceann muid go laethúil ná na dúshláin a bhaineann le dhá chóras éagsúil ag freastal ar na forais Thuaidh-Theas. Mar a deir Seán Ó Coinn, is minic go mbíonn muid mar an dalta dalba, is é sin, an páiste nach smaoinítear faoi go dtí an nóiméad deireanach. Ciallaíonn sé go bhfuiltear ag iarraidh ár gcúinsí a bhrú isteach i gcóras nach bhfuil deartha lena aghaidh.

Bíonn sampla den chineál sin againn chóir a bheith gach lá. Mar shampla, luaigh Seán Ó Coinn cúrsaí teicneolaíochta. An tseachtain seo chaite, bhí aischur teicneolaíochta le déanamh leis an Roinn ó Thuaidh, agus is gnáthrud é sin. Nuair a thagann sé go rudaí atá thar a bheith praiticiúil, áfach, ní raibh an Roinn in ann plé lenár n-oifigí ó Dheas toisc nach raibh cód poist chirt cláraithe. Tá rudaí beaga mar sin ag tarlú go laethúil mar nach smaoinítear ar an tríú spás seo.

Is gá meabhrú ar an tríú spás seo. Is é sin an smaoineamh is mó is mian liom a fhágáil leis an gcomhchoiste. Labhair cuid de na príomhfheidhmeannaigh a bhí ann le 20 bliain anuas i gcuid de na forais eile faoin tríú spás. Tá deis ann don tír seo an tríú spás sin a fhorbairt agus a bheith mar eiseamláir idirnáisiúnta maidir le conas is féidir comhoibriú faoi chomhaontú idirnáisiúnta, mar atá le Comhaontú Aoine an Chéasta. Tá meicníochtaí ag teastáil a dhéanfaidh freastal ar an tríú spás agus, ar bhealach, scagadh ar chuid de na hiarratais agus cuid de na rudaí atá ag teacht ón dá thaobh le go mbeidh siad in oiriúint don tríú spás seo. Ligfidh sé sin, mar a deirtear i mBéarla, the best of both worlds a bheith againn ina bhfuilimid an-éifeachtach agus an-mhaith ag déanamh ár gcuid oibre agus ag brú na Gaeilge, inár gcás, chun cinn.

Is mian liom cur leis sin. Ó thaobh na teanga de, ní dhéantar plé ar an Ghaeilge ach amháin sna cruinnithe a bhaineann le Foras na Gaeilge agus na cruinnithe le lucht na hUltaise. Tarlaíonn siad sin dhá uair sa bhliain. Aithníonn muid gurbh í an Ghaeilge ba chúis le titim na struchtúr ó Thuaidh an uair dheireanach. Aithníonn muid go bhfuil an Ghaeilge ar cheann de na rudaí atá fágtha go fóill i measc na socraithe a rinneadh le Comhaontú Aoine an Chéasta nach bhfuil réitigh polaitiúla aimsithe orthu idir Rialtas na hÉireann, Rialtas na Breataine agus an Feidhmeannas ó Thuaidh. Tá réitigh aimsithe ar na mór-rudaí eile cosúil le cúrsaí póilíneachta agus rudaí eile den chineál sin. Níl siad foirfe ach tá réitigh aimsithe agus, de réir a chéile, tá tosaíocht tugtha ag an Rialtas dóibh. Is é seo an t-am anois do Rialtas na hÉireann an Ghaeilge a chur ar an chlár le bheith cinnte nach bhfanann muid go dtí go mbeidh muid ag caint ar chomhroinnt an oileáin go dáiríre agus gan réiteach aimsithe againn ar cheist na Gaeilge go fóill.

A fair point was made about that third space. That is a point well made. We might, as a committee, agree to correspond with not only the Department of the Minister, Deputy Calleary, but also the secretariat for the North-South Ministerial Council and other such North-South bodies to articulate that from today’s session. That would be a good outturn from this meeting.

Mr. Seán Ó Coinn highlighted the progress that has been made on many issues not just arising from the 1998 agreement but from subsequent agreements, too. He is right; they are not perfect but where there is a willingness, we can get there.

I highlight the point made earlier about UNESCO, the Council of Europe and the Parliament. To see the language being used is a matter of pride but, obviously, it is important. The more we see the use of the language in various forums, the better. Does anyone wish to come back in?

Tá rud beag agam. Tá sé luaite ag na finnéithe go bhfuil 75% den airgead ag teacht ón Rialtas ó Dheas agus 25% ag teacht ón Rialtas ó Thuaidh. I gcomhthéacs na 500 tionscnamh a bhfuil airgead á chur ar fáil dóibh go bliantúil, cén céatadán de na tionscnaimh nó deontais sin atá ag dul go dtí na Sé Chontae i gcomparáid leis na Sé Chontae Fichead?

Is eolas é sin nach mbailíonn muid de ghnáth. Socraíodh go luath i saol Fhoras na Gaeilge gur eagraíocht uile-oileán muid agus go bpléifeadh muid le hiarratais ar dheontas de réir fhiúntas na n-iarratas. Is féidir an t-eolas a fháil ach, ar bhealach, níor mhaith linn-----

Tuigim é sin.

-----a bheith ag comhroinnt ár ndeontas ar an dóigh sin.

Tá sé sin ceart agus cóir. B’fhéidir nach ceist fhéaráilte a bhí ann. Tá muid thar a bheith buíoch de na finnéithe as ucht teacht os comhair an choiste. Molaim an obair iontach ar fad atá á déanamh acu. Tá súil againn gur féidir linn oibriú le chéile chun leanúint ar aghaidh. Cé go bhfuil constaicí inár gcoinne i láthair na huaire, is iontach an rud é iad ar fad a phlé.

On behalf of the committee, I express a big thanks to Mr. Seán Ó Coinn agus Mr. Shane Ó hEidhin for their engagement and for taking the time to come before the committee to discuss important and outstanding issues arising from the agreement that relate to their remit. I thank them for all the work they do and I wish them the very best and continued success. As I said, they have been very successful and we recognise that, but we also recognise there is more to be done. This committee will provide any assistance it can. We will engage with the relevant Departments and highlight the points the witnesses have made. Obviously, we will not just keep this issue with one particular Department because it is bigger than that. I often use the analogy that it is like the conversations we have with regard to climate change. Climate change permeates right throughout all Departments, and it is same with the language. It should be the same for the language. It has permeated throughout every Department for many a decade and it should be the same, hopefully, for the North-South bodies. Gabhaim buíochas le gach duine. That concludes our meeting this afternoon.

Is mian liom mo bhuíochas a ghabháil leis an Chathaoirleach. Labhair mé leis thart faoi cheithre mhí ó shín agus dúirt sé, le cuidiú Dé, go gcuirfí cuireadh faoinár mbráid. Is mian liom buíochas a ghabháil leis an chomhchoiste as an chuireadh sin. Is é seo ár gcéad uair faoi bhráid an choiste seo. Is mór againn sin. Ba mhaith liom an deis seo a thapú fosta mo bhuíochas a ghabhail leis an fhoireann a bhíonn ag plé leis an choiste a ligeann dúinn ár bhfianaise a thabhairt trí mheán na Gaeilge agus, dár ndóigh, leis an lucht aistriúcháin atá ar chúl na gloine ansin. Gabhaim buíochas leo.