I begin with apologies from the Chairperson, Deputy Devlin, who cannot be here this morning. As Vice Chair, I have been asked to step into the breach.

On behalf of the committee, I welcome Mr. John McGahon, CEO of Dundalk Chamber of Commerce, Dr. Conor Patterson and Mr. Michael Savage, president and CEO, respectively, of Newry Chamber of Commerce and Trade, and Ms Toni Forrester, CEO of Letterkenny Chamber of Commerce. From Londonderry Chamber of Commerce, I welcome Ms Anna Doherty, CEO, Mr. Steven Lindsay, president, Mr. William McColgan, vice president, and Mr. Andrew Fleming, past president. I welcome Ms Claire Cunningham, a committee member of Carrickmacross Chamber of Commerce. From Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown Chamber of Commerce, I welcome Ms Colette O'Sullivan, CEO, Mr. Bryan O'Higgins, vice president, and Ms Gisèle Scanlon. I welcome Mr. Frank Shivers, president of Bangor Chamber of Commerce, and Ms Alison Blayney, vice president, as well as Mr. Rowan Davidson of the Argyle Business Centre and Mr. Tony Mallon, CEO of Space NI. We look forward to your engagement with the committee and the opportunity to discuss the vital role of cross-Border collaboration in supporting development, which is a theme that sits at the very heart of strand two of the Good Friday Agreement. Economic development, enterprise development and the delivery of infrastructure for the region through cross-Border collaboration creates a more connected, sustainable and prosperous island for us all. There is significant value in hearing your contributions, which might highlight the opportunities and the practical challenges facing the cross-Border economy and the need for aligned public services.

Regarding the format of the meeting, I will invite the head of each chamber of commerce to make an opening statement. This will be followed by questions from members of the committee. Each member has a five-minute slot to ask questions and for the witnesses to respond.

Before we begin, I must remind members of some rules and constitutional requirements. In order to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. Members of the committee attending remotely must do so from within the precincts of Leinster House. This is due to the constitutional requirement that, in order to participate in public meeting, members must be physically present within the confines of the place where Parliament has chosen to sit. In this regard, I ask any member partaking via Microsoft Teams that, prior to making their contribution to the meeting, confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, I will direct them to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

As the witnesses will probably be aware, the committee will publish the opening statements on its website following the meeting. MPs participating in this committee session from a jurisdiction other than the State are advised they should also be mindful of their domestic law and how it may apply to their participation in meetings.

I invite Mr. McGahon to make his opening statement. He will be followed by Dr. Patterson.

I thank the Cathaoirleach, Deputy Devlin, for facilitating this meeting and the other members of the committee for agreeing to this discussion, which is really important.

From my position in Dundalk town, Dundalk very much has had a unique strategic position where it is on the Border for the past 100 years. The one thing that has been constant throughout that is Dundalk’s ability to not only attract large-scale development, but also have a really good homegrown set of generational businesses. It is not just another regional town. It is a town that is one of Ireland's most significant urban centres because of its geographical location. That obviously gives Dundalk enormous potential, but with that potential comes a responsibility, particularly on the Government, to ensure that the infrastructure is there to actually realise it in the first place. It cannot simply be about me promoting my home town or chamber. It actually coincides with myself, Dr. Patterson and Mr. Savage from Newry Chamber of Commerce and Trade because when our entire region does well, we all do well. That is a key thing that I want to bring to this, namely, the collaboration that we have alongside Newry chamber.

The big thing for us is the M1 corridor. The M1 corridor is what links Dublin and Belfast. I have often said that it is the economic engine of the island of Ireland. It is the spine of the island of Ireland when it comes to the economy. At the heart of that spine are Drogheda, Dundalk and Newry. Dundalk sits directly there. We as towns do very well when the M1 corridor does very well. At the same time, though, we are seeing both sides of that reality. On the one hand, we have attracted significant investment and we have a growing base of SMEs, strong cross-Border trade relationships and a workforce that is highly skilled and highly mobile. On the other hand, we face very real constraints that are beginning to limit the growth of these towns. Infrastructure is overwhelmingly the issue. That is really what I am here to talk about. I am not just here to talk about the bad things. Rather, I am here to talk about the good and the bad.

Regarding transport connectivity, up until a year ago, there were eight direct trains from Dublin to Belfast. If we compare Glasgow and Edinburgh or Manchester and Liverpool, cities with similar distances between them, they see up to 20 trains a day. In the past year and a half, it has become an hourly service. It leaves Belfast and Dundalk each day. That is excellent. However, there are two big infrastructure problems. We need to have increased capacity in the number of carriages so that we can cater for the growing population and ensure that frequency continues, and as Senator Comyn will be aware, we need a second station in Drogheda, where approximately 5,000 to 6,000 houses have been approved for the north side of the city. I am getting ahead of myself with "city". I mean on the north side of the town. People in Dundalk will kill me for that. How and ever, that is where we are with transport.

The second big constraint is wastewater capacity. This is a huge issue in Dundalk because we are at full wastewater capacity. This is not an issue that is coming down the line in five or six years' time. This is an issue that is prevalent today. We need an increase in funding from Uisce Éireann. We need an increase in our wastewater capacity, and only when we get that increase can we effectively build more homes and attract further business to Dundalk town. We need the Government to do something. The Government has set out quite clearly in Ireland 2040 and national development plans that it wants Dundalk to increase from 40,000 to 80,000 people. If that is a Government policy objective, then we need Government funding to be able to follow it in the first place.

The final great thing about Dundalk, which has happened only recently, is the collaboration between Dundalk Institute of Technology, DkIT, and Queen's University. This is excellent and exciting. That collaboration between the two is going to strengthen all-Ireland co-operation when it comes to education, research and innovation. That partnership has the potential to position the north east as a key cross-Border knowledge corridor, one that can continue to attract investment, support high-value job creation and drive regional economic development. By combining those academic strengths, research capabilities and industry engagement, the future is very bright for education within the M1 corridor.

I commend the Government of recent years because the issue with DkIT was that when the IT legislation was passing through these Houses in 2020 and 2021, Dundalk was left without a partner to be able to go in with. The fact that the Government was able to go back to the drawing board, expand the legislation and put new legislation through to allow us to look across the Border and link in with Queen's University is astounding and fantastic. That is the approach we need when it comes to an all-island economy and issue. It is not about us or Newry being on the periphery. Rather, it is about looking at the island and the corridor as a whole.

In conclusion, I am not coming here looking for special treatment for Dundalk. I am simply asking for a recognition of the reality. We are doing very well, as is the M1 corridor, and what we need is to have the proper funding and backing of Government policy. If we do not have an increase in capacity, whether it is wastewater or transport, we are going to be constrained and we will end up creating a bottleneck right in the economic engine of the island of Ireland. We do not want that to happen, and we are asking for funding to follow proper Government policy.

I thank the committee for the invitation to give evidence today. Newry Chamber of Commerce and Trade is the largest business-to-business organisation in the wider Newry area, representing 330 local businesses of varying sizes across all sectors. We have a long-standing partnership with Dundalk Chamber of Commerce and we work together always to promote economic growth and cross-Border trade throughout the greater Newry-Dundalk cross-Border hinterland.

Our context is a challenging one. I will not stay on this point for too long but it is important to reflect that our location in Newry - south Armagh and south Down - was separated from its hinterland to the South for most of the 20th century by the hardest of hard borders and marginalised by the Stormont Government of that time. The result is a huge legacy of missed opportunities and underinvestment. Only after the Good Friday Agreement had we an opportunity to take advantage of our geographical position equidistant between Belfast and Dublin, and similar for Dundalk. We have worked together in that time and achieved amazing things.

Brexit was a major threat to Newry and Dundalk's future. An article in The Irish Times at the beginning of 2016 described Newry as “ground zero for the Brexit debate" on this island. The Northern Ireland protocol and Windsor Framework addressed the challenge of trade in agrifood and some of those in manufacturing, but big issues remain. Everything brought into Northern Ireland is automatically presumed to be a risk, so comes with the need for full customs declarations, plus, on occasion, tariffs. There remains big friction on parcels. Financial services, of great importance to Newry in particular, were not part of the Windsor Framework. Sourcing of labour is a huge issue, as are the loss of EU structural funds and eligibility to participate in transnational EU programmes.

Cross-Border trade has increased, but that is in large measure because of the growth of the Republic’s economy, which is the biggest beneficiary of that increase in trade. Newry’s location and improved connectivity is now presenting us with a challenge on such a scale that we cannot resolve it without intergovernmental action. We are in the shadow of, and are a net contributor to, what is now the fastest growing economy in the world, that of the Irish Republic. We are the biggest cheerleaders of that success and commend all in civic life and business in the Republic for that achievement. It is incredible. However, we are providing talented people to the Republic and contributing spending power to a superior retail and catering-hospitality offer across the Border in a setting of a greatly improved public realm while ours degrades year on year with regard to roads, water, sewerage, health, policing and schools, all while businesses in the North contend with tax on profits double that in the South, a VAT rate on hospitality across the Border that is 11 percentage points lower, and peer businesses in the Republic t hat can access superior supports from central and local government. Where is the headroom for increased revenue raising by the Northern Executive and councils in the North? Our business rates are already much higher than in the South, our agricultural sector is ageing and we have huge strains on public finances, given that our population is, unfortunately, sicker because of the degradation of the NHS, with life expectancy two years below that in the Republic. These are the facts and it is important to face up to them. We are positive about the future but we need to acknowledge the context. These are the facts and it is important to face up to them. We are positive about the future, but we need to acknowledge the context.

We cannot leverage pan-UK economies of scale similar to parts of Britain in the delivery of public services or in the private sector because of the Irish Sea, and we are constrained in doing so on all-island basis due to the tax, currency, political and administrative borders. We have limited local sovereignty. The Good Friday Agreement recognised that the two sovereign states, which were then both EU member states, held the higher political sovereignty role, which was formalised in the concept of co-guarantorship of the Good Friday Agreement.

What does all of that mean and what is our ask? Our ask is that the Irish Government recognise its significant influence with the British Government. It works in partnership with the British Government on many fronts, and we support that. We urge the Irish Government to make representation to the British Government for increased investment in the North.

We also ask the Irish Government to take a more direct role alongside the British Government, in supporting a stable, successful economic future for this region on the island of Ireland, to recognise the region's unique challenges. The Irish Government needs to give more substantive effect, we believe, to its role as a co-guarantor of the GFA. It cannot, given the open border, offload all responsibility to the British Government. The Irish Government cannot ignore the widening differentials that are opening up between North and the South. Leaving these issues unaddressed will create problems for the Republic and its citizens given our open border.

We are asking that this State manages its investments in the North in the same way that the EU does its structural funds, in particular that these commitments do not always have to have a shared impact in both jurisdictions and do not always require a public sector lead partner in the Republic. We are appealing now to the Irish Government to commit to a bigger role in shaping a positive development future for the North as part of the all-island economy. The more successful the North is, the greater the benefits for the whole island.

What are our specific asks? Starting with shared waterways, the challenges in Dundalk were referred to, and those challenges extend to the Cooley Peninsula and Newry. Newry Chamber is working in partnership with Dundalk Chamber to develop a cross-Border wastewater funding strategy for the greater Newry, greater Dundalk and Carlingford Lough area. This strategy will enhance water quality and protect the ecology and natural beauty of the cross-Border region’s shared waterways, which include the Newry river estuary, Carlingford Lough and Dundalk Bay.

To date, we have held three productive meetings with Uisce Éireann and Northern Ireland Water, and all partners are committed to collaborating on this project. This will unlock the economic potential of the greater Newry and greater Dundalk area to become an economic powerhouse on the Dublin-Belfast economic corridor. Both areas can become strong net contributors to the all-island economy. The project will also protect the delicate ecology of our shared waterways, ease housing pressures along the eastern seaboard and provide opportunities for renewable energy for the whole island. We are asking the Irish Government, through the shared island fund, to invest in this strategy, which will benefit all in the east Border region.

Moving to skills and talent, we are asking the Irish Government to support Newry Chamber’s proposal for a time-bound and business-sponsored all-island work permit for EU workers through its engagement with the British Government, and use the significant influence it has in shaping British Government policy as it affects Northern Ireland and the island of Ireland. We therefore ask that the Irish Government encourages the British Government to support the introduction of a pilot scheme to allow freedom of movement of EU workers across all sectors on the island of Ireland. My colleague Michael Savage can elaborate on both these proposals in detail during questions.

I thank Dr. Patterson. I call Ms Forrester from Letterkenny Chamber.

I am thankful for the opportunity. Letterkenny Chamber is the only full-time chamber of commerce in Donegal affiliated to Chambers Ireland. It is important to say that. There are no other full-time chambers. We have 340 members representing 10,000 employees from all sectors and sizes of business, including the foreign direct investment, FDI, we have and many indigenous SMEs. Under our memorandum of understanding with Derry Chamber, we have a strong collaborative relationship and work together, alongside key stakeholders, to ensure we have a strong collective voice for the north-west region. Over many years, infrastructure and balanced development have ranked highly among our members’ concerns. Our businesses across the region and key stakeholders have clearly shown ambition and although the dial is moving, the County Donegal statistics show a county that is still struggling across the metrics.

A serious commitment to balanced regional development, with policies to back it up and agile delivery from both Governments, would address the decades of underinvestment in the region. We have always aimed to promote the north west positively and our main objective is to enable this region to be a net contributor to the economy, similar to my colleague. We want to have a thriving economy that contributes positively to a successful north west and we want to be part of a successful Ireland. A thriving north-west region will benefit the country as a whole.

Letterkenny is the largest urban centre in Donegal, with a population of 22,000, and is now larger than Sligo.

As the commercial capital of the county, with a university, regional hospital and some fairly substantial large employers, it grows in size by around 20,000 each day, putting pressure on all aspects of our infrastructure. The town is a significant growth centre, as identified in the national development plan, and the north-west city region has been recognised as a strong cross-Border conglomeration, effectively the fourth largest city on the island. We are keen to see the results of balanced regional development that has been long promised.

On a practical level, we have very strong partnerships and structures through the north west strategic growth partnership and the tertiary education cluster. The councils and education providers, through just these two examples, demonstrate what can be achieved when institutions work together. We have also seen the cross-Border delivery of some health services that really have delivered excellent outcomes for our population on the Border. However, we need to see more of this across Government Departments. In essence, we need the policy and resources to support this work. Our institutions and businesses work together on a cross-Border basis daily. Workers and families see the Border as completely fluid and while we have made much progress over the past 25 years, we need policy to keep pace with people.

In the years since Brexit, we have been encountering far more barriers than before, and these are definitely impacting labour and skills mobility. These barriers are in the areas of taxation, mortgages, pensions and recognition of qualifications. They impact employee choice of place of work, reducing the available talent pool for businesses in our jurisdiction. It is important to note that this talent pool has started to contract.

The formation of Atlantic Technological University has been a huge boost to the region and the expansion of the Magee campus alongside ATU will offer major opportunities to our young people and make the region more attractive. The growth of both organisations will strengthen the talent pool, improve the region's attractiveness to investors and employers, improve innovation and help create critical mass needed for sustainable growth.

The north-west region is showing not just potential but also ambition. The confidence of businesses and institutions is growing in spite of its position from the centre. We share this ambition and we ask that policymakers make policy decisions and investment in infrastructure to enable us to live our ambitions. Balanced regional development that delivers for the north-west region is good for the economy as a whole.

We really need enabling infrastructure. We want help with this, not just levelling up. We need to be enabled to help us deliver. I mentioned infrastructure – being from the north west, I cannot not mention it. This is the constant and main issue among our business community. We have to applaud what has been achieved across Donegal in terms of broadband over the years. When I get despondent about infrastructure, I go back to how we have delivered broadband. Donegal has connection speeds that mean people can work anywhere for world-class businesses. This shows what can be delivered when the will is there to do it. However, our road connectivity remains the biggest challenge. The continued commitment from the Irish Government to developing the western transport corridor, the A5, is acknowledged, but we know where we are with that. This piece of infrastructure would clearly deliver regional balance and give our businesses and people the connectivity they have lacked for years. It would open up opportunities not only for our respective town and city but for everyone who lives along the route. This route in Northern Ireland is as important to a business in Letterkenny and north Donegal as it is to a business in Derry.

The all-island strategic rail review presented some potential opportunities for the north west but still leaves Donegal with no rail infrastructure. Our colleagues across the country have travel options, while the north west is left with no option other than continued reliance on the car.

We are well aware of the housing issues across the island and we are no different. The lack of housing has a direct impact on recruitment and retention of staff. Increasingly, the lack of affordability of housing has been cited as a constraint to growth. In addition, water and wastewater infrastructure needs to be aligned with county and regional development plans. The ambitions to grow the population in the region can only be achieved if we can supply housing and all of the infrastructure that goes with that.

The final issue in terms of infrastructure is that of energy security. Donegal is still lagging well behind with the lack of grid connectivity, which constrains growth and investment. If the region was treated as one entity, there could be opportunities to deliver electricity to power up the region on a cross-Border basis.

In order to deliver the infrastructure needed to really develop the region, we would like to see a whole-of-government approach to delivery and alignment of the national planning framework, national development plan and the respective county development plans, which we hope will match with the strategic plans of organisations like EirGrid and Uisce Éireann. Together with Derry chamber and cross-Border stakeholders we want to position the north west to compete in sectors that will shape future growth. We have been working together on Atlantic Advantage - my colleagues can fill the committee in on that - which aims to position the north west as a leading region for AI-driven growth that could unlock opportunities across our communities.

Letterkenny Chamber encourages our TDs and Senators to do everything in their power to ensure that the deficits I outlined are addressed. Our members and the wider business community work hard to create a vibrant business environment. Their commitment to the north west has created many jobs and opportunities so far. The north west offers a quality of life that is the envy of many and we are attracting visitors in greater numbers than ever before. We all share ambitious growth targets for the next 20 years and believe with the right support and intervention we can deliver and live into those ambitions, create opportunities for our young people, be more attractive to investors and retain talent and expertise.

We move to Ms Anna Doherty. I am sorry, she has been replaced.

She has not been replaced, but the committee has got me instead.

For today.

I have the pleasure of being the president of the chamber.

Okay. We will get your nameplate changed.

Sorry for the confusion. I thank the Vice Chair and members for the invitation to speak. Our chief executive Ms Doherty, who is in the cheap seats, and I are delighted to be with the committee this morning. Londonderry Chamber of Commerce is the leading voice of the private sector in the north west of Northern Ireland. We represent more than 400 members and through our memorandums of understanding with Causeway Chamber and Letterkenny Chamber - as Ms Forrester noted - we work to ensure a stronger and more unified private sector voice across the north west region. Collectively, our three chambers represent businesses employing about 40,000 people.

I will build on some of the themes in Ms Forrester's address. Our core message is simple: the north west should not be viewed as a peripheral edge of two jurisdictions. It should be understood as a single functional economic area. Derry, Strabane and Donegal already operate in practice as an interconnected labour market, travel-to-work zone and shared commercial geography. The question is not whether our region has potential because, as Ms Forrester has illustrated, it clearly does. The question is whether policy, investment and infrastructure are aligned strongly enough to unlock this potential. A stronger north west is an important message and is not only good for our region but good for the wider Northern Ireland economy and the all-island economy.

We have seen real progress in our region since the Good Friday Agreement. We are more confident, more connected institutionally and more credible as an investment proposition than we were a generation ago. However, structural underperformance remains. Derry city and Strabane still sit below the Northern Ireland average on gross value added, GVA, and that tells us progress has not yet translated into full economic transformation. Cross-Border collaboration is not an abstract idea in the north west but how the economy already functions. Workers cross the Border every day. Businesses recruit across the Border every day. Education and skills partnerships increasingly operate on a cross-Border basis. Structures such as the north-west strategic growth partnership and the North West Tertiary Education Cluster show what can be achieved when institutions work together with purpose.

Unfortunately, policy has not fully caught up with the lived reality in our region. As Ms Forrester highlighted, employers and workers still face friction around taxation, pensions, mortgages, remote working arrangements, social security and recognition of qualifications. Businesses also face policy divergence across the two jurisdictions, including different VAT treatment in the hospitality sector, which can draw customers and trade to one side of the Border over the other in what is already a shared market. In effect, we have a shared market without the full policy architecture needed to support it. That creates an unnecessary drag in a region that depends on flexibility, mobility and cross-Border co-operation.

If there is one issue that most clearly explains why the north west has not yet fulfilled its potential, perhaps it is infrastructure. As Dr. Patterson highlighted, growth in our region has too often had to fight against weak enabling conditions rather than being supported by them. Wastewater capacity is a good example. This is not simply a housing problem. It constrains population growth, labour mobility, private development, university expansion and the wider attractiveness of our region for investment.

The A5 is another critical test. It is, of course, a road safety issue, but it is also about regional balance, connectivity and economic credibility. The same is true of rail. The all-island strategic rail review presents a major opportunity for the north west, but improved connections must be matched by practical co-ordination across transport planning and infrastructure. If our region is to function as an integrated economy, then connectivity must be treated as essential, not optional.

On investment, the story is one of real momentum, but not yet full transformation. There is now a live capital pipeline in Derry and Strabane of around £1 billion over the next decade, with more than £500 million of that already funded, on site or in advanced delivery. That is significant progress. However, investment must be judged not only by the amount committed, but by whether it raises productivity, strengthens the private sector and improves participation in the labour market.

That is why the campus expansion at Magee matters so much. This expansion is not simply an education project. It is a New Decade, New Approach commitment agreed by the British and Irish Governments and is one of the most important long-term economic development propositions for the north west. A larger university at Magee creates a campus of a scale that strengthens the talent pipeline, supports regeneration, improves the region's attractiveness to investors and employers, and helps create the urban critical mass needed for sustainable economic and social growth.

At the same time, we must be honest about the baseline. Economic inactivity in Derry and Strabane remains far too high. That means sustainable economic development must do more than attract capital. It must widen participation, create routes back into work and ensure that growth is felt by people and communities across the region.

As we look forward, the north west must not simply be seen as catching up. It should be positioned to compete in the sectors that will shape our future. That includes AI, advanced innovation and the green economy. As Ms Forrester mentioned, our unique "Atlantic Advantage" proposition points in the right direction. It aims to position the north west as a leading region for AI-driven growth by turning our existing strengths - our universities, colleges and business base - into real economic outcomes.

The north west has moved a long way since the Good Friday Agreement, but the region is still being asked to grow against structural drag. Political instability in Stormont has come at an economic cost and is still one of the biggest socio-economic risks we face.

In conclusion, our asks are straightforward. First, recognise the north west for what it already is, namely, an integrated cross-Border economy. Second, remove the practical friction that holds back labour mobility, skills and enterprise. Third, and similar to Dr. Patterson's ask earlier, back our region with the infrastructure, investment discipline and long-term policy support needed to convert potential into durable growth. Growth in the north west will strengthen both the Northern Ireland and the wider island economy. The north west has moved a long way since the Good Friday Agreement, but if public policy is serious about balanced regional development, then our region must now be enabled not merely to participate in growth, but to lead it.

I thank Mr. Lindsay. I now call, from my own home county, Ms Cunningham.

Carrickmacross Chamber of Commerce would like to thank the Oireachtas committee for inviting us today.

To give members some context, Carrickmacross has a population of just over 5,500 people. We are situated in south Monaghan and are the only chamber in the county. We are almost equidistant between Dublin and Belfast and we are situated on the N2 between Dublin and Derry. Carrickmacross was bypassed in 2005 and that had a serious impact on the town at that time.

We are probably best-known for Carrickmacross Lace, which is one of the most famous lace styles in Ireland, if not Europe. Historically, we are a market town and our base is very much retail and small retail outlets. We are one of the few towns to retain a weekly street market. We estimate our shoppers come from a 25 km radius which includes Northern Ireland, predominantly south Armagh.

The chamber of commerce is celebrating 50 years in existence this year and has over 150 members, which are predominately micro and small- to medium-sized businesses. As I said, they are predominantly in retail. The chamber is run by a committee of volunteers. We participate in many countywide organisations to help promote and develop the town.

As many people said, Border towns were negatively affected by the Troubles. The implementation of the Good Friday Agreement brought about stability, removed obvious physical barriers and fostered confidence in business in our region. It has definitely enhanced tourism traffic and encouraged more movement of people across the Border. As a chamber we believe there is great potential to develop this further. As a result of Carrickmacross’s proximity to Northern Ireland, similar to others here, there is significant cross-Border traffic. It is through workers, shopping and general leisure activities like eating out, tourism, etc. The direction of that traffic very much depends on fluctuations between the euro and sterling and price differentials in fuel and food. Obviously, in the last month we have seen traffic going north for fuel. Carrickmacross’s proximity to Northern Ireland leaves it open to potential unfair competition because of government policy. Some examples have already been mentioned but there is the VAT difference - it is 20% in Northern Ireland but 23% in the Republic - and probably more acute for a lot of people at the moment is the home heating oil difference, where it is 13.5% in the Republic as opposed to 5% in Northern Ireland.

Our members have also raised the issue of tax breaks in Northern Ireland for directors. This makes it easier and probably more attractive for directors and companies to locate in the North. From a cross-Border working perspective, Monaghan has the highest proportion of people living less than 10 km from a Border crossing and is the third highest county for workers from Northern Ireland. A brief poll of our members would support the fact that a percentage of workers from Northern Ireland working in Carrickmacross. They have identified issues that have probably been raised. These include private pensions. It is impossible to take out a private pension if you are working in the South but living in the North. There are issues with insurance and company cars. If you are a sole trader working in the Republic of Ireland but living in Northern Ireland, you cannot obtain liability insurance unless you set up a limited company. These are all quite restrictive practices and inhibit workers from staying in companies in the Republic.

The recent fuel crisis has put a focus on public transport and more efficient transport routes. This has highlighted some considerations for businesses and workers in the area. There is no direct transport link between Carrickmacross, Armagh or Down, which restricts access to a large potential work force who may not have access to their own transport. While there have been good improvements and a lot of positive things have happened on the M1 corridor, as mentioned, the N2, which the main artery through Monaghan that links Dublin to Derry, is pretty much at capacity and plans for upgrading it seem to have been shelved. Again, this will probably slow and restrict the development of not just Carrickmacross but the county as a whole.

On business collaboration, the general feeling is there has been very little done historically to foster close cross-Border collaboration in our area, particularly in retail. In the history of Carrickmacross Chamber, we have never identified a corresponding-sized business organisation in Armagh, Tyrone and Fermanagh to work with. That probably has restricted co-operation and collaboration. In the past there were organisations like the Plato network, especially the Blackwater one, assisted cross-Border business in networking and joint events. We are not aware of any currently and this is something we would like to see developed going forward.

On policy, investment and infrastructure opportunities for us, we would like to see the harmonisation or at least the levelling-out of some policies for businesses in the areas of pensions, insurance, VAT and directors’ taxation. This would provide a more level playing pitch for business in Carrickmacross and probably Monaghan as a whole. We would like to see the development of a Border-specific organisation to promote collaboration and foster co-operation in business development cross-Border. This could offer knowledge, networking and training. We would like to see greater investment in public transport and road infrastructure to make access to cross-Border travel easier in both directions for workers, businesses and tourists.

We would also like to see investment in the positive promotion of business in the Border region nationally and internationally. We feel we are coming from behind a little bit on that and we think that would help us as a chamber of commerce.

I thank Ms Cunningham. If we go out of the Houses through the Merrion Square gate, we are only a hop, skip and jump down to our nearest chamber. Ms Colette O'Sullivan is next.

I thank the committee for opportunity to address it today. Mr. Frank Shivers from Bangor Chamber of Commerce and I are doing a joint presentation as we have recently signed a memorandum of understanding and are presenting as a partnership. We are here today to represent two chambers of commerce, Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown and Bangor, but more importantly as part of a growing business-led network across the island. Every day, our members already work across borders, trading, hiring and solving problems together in collaboration and partnership.

Our message today is quite simple and is very evident from the statements the committee has already heard. Business is already leading the way on cross-Border co-operation. The opportunity now is for policy and infrastructure to support and scale what is happening on the ground.

From Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown's perspective, as one of the country's most internationally connected economic regions, we see at first hand how interconnected our economy is with Northern Ireland. Many of our members already work with suppliers and clients across Northern Ireland. They employ people who move across the island regularly and make decisions based on opportunity and not jurisdiction. However, practical barriers remain. They are not political, but everyday friction that impacts on how businesses operate, including different processes and systems, gaps in transport connectivity and missed opportunities to better link talent and clusters. From a business perspective, the ask is clear, namely, to make it easier to work together. This includes supporting joint initiatives between chambers and business networks North and South; investing in shared innovation programmes to enable collaboration; ensuring funding is accessible to partner-led and SME-driven projects; supporting research-led, data-driven investment; and leveraging tourism and the cruise economy to create authentic visitor experiences. Our marine economies already share a very special relationship between Dún Laoghaire and Bangor.

Moving on to strategic opportunities and infrastructure, co-operation already exists. What is needed now is scale, structure and support. There is a clear opportunity to position the Dún Laoghaire-Bangor economic corridor as a shared engine for growth. Priorities include stronger east coast links supporting key sectors; reliable, future-focused digital connectivity; and investment aligned with people and the businesses they operate. Both chambers are actively enabling this and see strong potential to accelerate progress with the right supports.

From Bangor's perspective, we strongly echo these points. Our businesses do not think in terms of North and South when it comes to opportunity. They think in terms of markets, talent and access. I had actually forgotten about profit and success but I will add that because it is very important to the business community. Increasingly, those are all-Ireland in nature. We are seeing strong and growing momentum in tourism partnerships along the east coast, with SMEs building relationships with Dublin-based firms and shared opportunities in sectors such as marine, green energy and digital services. However, a gap remains between what businesses are ready to do and what the system currently enables. Our focus is therefore on practical support for partnership, enabling chambers and local business networks to connect directly and consistently and supporting peer-to-peer collaboration between SMEs, not just top-down programmes. We want to create space for flexible, locally driven joint projects. Infrastructure plays a key role, but from a business perspective it is about reliability and access, efficient connectivity between Dublin, Belfast and key ports, and transport options that make collaboration practical, routine and not theoretical. This will ensure that regional centres like Bangor are fully integrated into a wider all-island economy. When connections work, partnerships grow.

The Good Friday Agreement created conditions for co-operation. What we are seeing now in the next phase is co-operation actively driven by businesses on a day-to-day basis through relationships, projects and shared opportunity.

Our message is clear: support what is already working and enable it to go further.

We also need to invest in connections between people, places and businesses, back partnerships that come from the ground up and make it easier for companies across the island to grow together. We would also welcome the opportunity to continue engaging with the committee on how the chambers of commerce can support implementation in practical, business-led ways. If these conditions are in place, the economic benefits will follow naturally.

I welcome the witnesses and thank them for their presentations, which included the very common themes of opportunity and challenge and the need for government policies here, in Belfast and London to create an atmosphere where those opportunities can be realised. I am a Border dweller from the Newry-south Armagh region. I want to ask Dr. Patterson a question. The context he outlined in terms of that is the growing all-Ireland economy, which, despite insufficient assistance in my view, has grown sixfold since the Good Friday Agreement. That, in turn, supports the need on the island for a greater diversification in the economy here, away from the overreliance on tech and pharma and the tax returns from those. It is also the context of gross underfunding on the northern side of the Border, which has been clearly reflected in the contributions. That has been a constant theme but certainly since 2012 and Tory austerity policies, which have been followed through by a Labour government, we have seen that underfunding now reaching critical points in terms of infrastructure and public services. Allied to that is the likely loss of EU Structural Funds in the future.

While the shared island initiative has been very welcome and has produced some terrific projects, it has often been critiqued for its lack of strategic purpose, in terms of what it intends to do. It is kind of who comes through the door and what projects match what the broad view is. In his paper, Dr. Patterson proposed the idea of a replacement structural fund, one which is not reliant on the linkages, albeit these are important in terms of reconciliation between groups, but provides what is actually required to grow the economy on the island. It would, in particular, recognise Border areas and areas in the North where there is that deficit. I know we have limited time. Will Dr. Patterson elaborate briefly on that?

Mr. Mallon, Mr. Lindsay and Ms Cunningham outlined the problems and challenges we recognise in terms of cross-Border mobility. These have actually been exacerbated by Covid, believe it or not, because of working from home, which is now an added layer of complication. The Government here and the government in Britain, because that is where taxation and a lot of these issues are resolved, have talked many times about resolving this. However, it clearly needs a government-led strategic focus to try to remove those barriers to cross-Border working. We have proposed that the Seanad undertake a public consultation on the issue. We hope this will take place either later this year or early next year. I ask Dr. Patterson to elaborate on the suggestion on structural funding and some of the other witnesses to then address the challenges to cross-Border working.

The shared island programme and funding are welcome. I do not want this to appear critical, but significantly more could be done. If we annualise the €1 billion commitment over five years, that is €200 million per year. It does not get spent annually, but that is what it would be annualised. As a fraction of the annual spend of the State, that is about 0.2%, so 99.8% of spend of the Irish State is on other things. If a quarter of the island of Ireland is a different jurisdiction but we have an open Border - we have talked about the all-island economy - we think more can be done by the Irish State as a development partner with the British Government in the North.

It is not asking the Irish Government to replace the British Government but to be more engaged as a development partner in the interest of the entire island, including the citizens of this State. That is the broad pitch.

On the Structural Fund model, a number of us have worked with EU Structural Funds over many years. The model there would be a community support framework with strategic objectives that would then seed operational programmes that are negotiated with governmental partners. In the case of the North, that would be the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly. That then provides a framework for local partners like us to slot in our ambitions and to maximise return on those investments. The issue with the shared island fund is it is aspirational but it lacks real structure. We think giving that a structure - and we are happy for others to contribute to what that would look like and there are other views as well – could achieve so much more. The big point is that the Irish State, to achieve its full potential, needs to do more in the North because if it does not and the North continues to go in a different direction and diverge, that will create problems for the rest of the island of Ireland.

We will move on. We can come back and we will do a second round.

I just wanted a quick word on some of the others.

We are half a minute over.

Okay.

We will come back on the second round. I want to give everyone a chance here. We are now at the Fianna Fáil group. I call Senator Comyn.

I thank everyone for their presentations. First, I want to acknowledge how hard all the chambers work in their localities and nationally in improving the local businesses and local economies. As a Drogheda-based Senator, I thank John McGahon for acknowledging that Drogheda is indeed a city, although it was a subconscious admission. I am Louth-based. Anything that benefits Dundalk benefits Drogheda and vice versa. It is almost impossible to talk about one without the other, both having received living city initiatives as well. On things like the trains which he mentioned, we do need improved infrastructure in order to benefit right across the M1 corridor which Mr. McGahon rightly acknowledge is absolutely vital. We are working a lot, as he will know, on the likes of tourism cross-Border. It is benefiting so much from the shared island initiative. I cannot wait to see the likes of the Narrow Water Bridge which will provide an amazing amount of connectivity, particularly for tourism.

The witnesses mentioned that we have the fastest-growing economy in the world so, yes, cross-Border is probably benefiting. My concern is particularly for the likes of Dundalk, Louth, Newry, etc. Are they effectively competing against each other and by dint of that diluting any investment?

I will take that. I thank the Senator for the question. “No” is the simple answer. We only do really well when Dundalk Chamber and I work in collaboration with Mr. Savage and Dr. Patterson. The same goes for Hubert Murphy in Drogheda, Lisburn Chamber and Warrenpoint Chamber. It is not about competition; it is about us being able to sell the region. I look at it as a completely borderless region. It is not about me trying to attract business to Dundalk; it is about me trying to attract and sell the entire region. When the entire region does well, all of our towns do well at the same time. That is the most important thing about it. The short answer is “No”. It is very much about promoting equally what I have to do in Dundalk town the same way Mr. Murphy has to do something in Drogheda but at the same time making sure we are championing the region as a whole because when the region does well, we all do well.

Can we talk about what those specific infrastructure gaps are. All the witnesses spoke about infrastructure gaps - what are they? Is there anything we can home in on that is preventing cross-Border investment and growth?

We have been working hand in glove with Uisce Éireann and Northern Ireland Water since the autumn on a significant scheme in relation to updating the wastewater need in the whole region. The ask and the need on the Northern side is close to £200 million. That is how big a deficit we have. I know Dundalk has recently received its budget through to 2036 but there are still significant gaps on the Cooley Peninsula. What we are working on is devising a shared waterways initiative project. We are meeting with the shared island fund this afternoon. Our plan is to seek funding from the shared island fund that will fund specifically a match-funding element with the Executive and Northern Ireland Water for the wastewater treatment plant in Newry.

As regards Newry's river estuary, the plant is based at the Green Bank at the mouth of Carlingford Lough and anything that overflows from the facility, which is operating at 110% capacity at the moment, flows into Carlingford Lough and, likewise, into Dundalk Bay. The proposal we are working on will make provision for wastewater treatment in Cooley, Carlingford and Greenore and associated networks around Omeath, and for the upgrade of the Newry wastewater treatment plant purely on the wastewater side. What does that do? It protects the ecology of the shared waterway, helps to boost tourism and also, most importantly, creates an economic development opportunity for our region.

At the moment, we have 31 major schemes in the greater Newry area that are at a standstill because Northern Ireland Water has rightfully put capacity restrictions on those planning applications. Those are investors and investments. Those are planning applications that are through planning but are stalled due to capacity issues. We have done some work with the Minister for Infrastructure, Liz Kimmins, who is a local Minister, and we are currently rolling out an innovative £25 million programme to address short-term network capacity issues that will get us through the next period of time. I think it has released about 440 dwellings in the region. However, given our proximity, the commuter belt to Dublin and the work we do with Dundalk, our region has huge potential to become an economic powerhouse on the Dublin-Belfast economic corridor. I again echo what Mr. McGahon said, that Newry and Dundalk working together, even through the worst of times, has meant we were able to sustain a strong relationship economically.

The other element we would home in on is in relation to some form of cross-border EU worker permit. We are working with the UK Government at the moment. Ideally, we would like one that would allow mobility on the island of Ireland but that causes problems in relation to UK legislation. What we are speaking to the UK Government about, and what we would like support from the Irish Government on, is one where those post-2020 EU citizens living in the Republic would have access to free movement on the island of Ireland. We have, for example, the hospitality, construction, manufacturing, agrifood and healthcare systems all struggling for staff. We have the iconic scenario where we have two hotels owned by the same brothers in Newry, one, the Carrickdale on the Louth side of the Border, and one in Newry. One has access to EU workers, while the other one does not. They could potentially share staff. That is a very simple example. That proposal would potentially allow free movement on the island of Ireland for already settled EU workers.

We are a minute over time. I want to give everyone a chance to get in again. I call Senator Kelleher.

Gabhaim buíochas leis na finnéithe as ucht teacht anseo. On the theme of wastewater treatment and Mr. Savage’s reference to the issues being encountered in Newry, I ask Mr. McGahon and Ms Forrester to elaborate on the issues around wastewater capacity being experienced in the Dundalk and Letterkenny areas. How are they impacting directly on the development of housing and enterprise in those areas?

This has only happened to us over the last few years. We had our county development plan. The ambitions for population growth for Donegal, Letterkenny in particular, are very clear. We are being told by developers that they cannot develop part of the land they would like to develop for housing because there is no water connectivity. We are seeing a little bit of movement. I have to acknowledge that quite a bit of work was done by Uisce Éireann in Rathmullen recently and there is a pipeline, but it is not complete. Letterkenny in particular has a problem with the main water pipeline which has to be replaced. We acknowledge Uisce Éireann is putting money into that but if we are really serious about ambitions to grow, we need to have that infrastructure coming alongside it. That is the biggest issue I have. We have ambitions to grow and the national planning framework has ambition to let us grow but unless we have water and electricity infrastructure, I cannot see how those ambitions will be aligned. A planner can apply to build 50 houses but they need water connectivity.

We have a whole lot of land - and I am just speaking for Letterkenny rather than the whole of the county - across the Swilly that could be developed. We very much back it. We are very much a chamber that wants development. Without water and wastewater services being developed over there, we are going to struggle. If we want young people to come and live in our areas, how do we cope with this issue? That is the main thing. To get affordable housing built, we have to have the water and wastewater connectivity. There are other issues but that is the main one in terms of Uisce Éireann.

I thank Ms Forrester.

I thank the Senator for the question. Deputies McGreehan and Ó Murchú will be very aware of this situation. I will give the Senator one clear example. Last week, 502 homes being built by Glenveagh in Blackrock outside Dundalk were refused planning permission. The second reason for the refusal of the planning permission was because of the heavy reliance on the limited capacity of wastewater services in Dundalk and Blackrock. It was as simple as that. This meant 502 homes did not get planning permission because we do not have the water and wastewater capacity.

The frustrating thing about this for me is that there are two clear requirements that we need Irish Water to undertake with water and wastewater capacity in Dundalk. One is to ensure compliance with EPA guidelines in Dundalk Bay, and again Deputies McGreehan and Ó Murchú will be very much aware of the technicalities around that. The second requirement is the financial investment when it comes to wastewater capacity.

This is the scary thing when we think about it. The timeline provided by Irish Water is that it will upgrade the wastewater facility at Soldiers' Point and, as a result, at Blackrock, by 2033. In the context of that analysis, the timelines, which the local authority and those of us in Dundalk are very much aware of, are slipping to 2035. Are we seriously being told that we will not be able to build one single home in Dundalk town over the next ten years because of water capacity? Irish Water will tell us this is not the case. It will tell us there is lots of capacity and that it has lots of capacity. That is not the case. It is not the case that I have seen in my home town and I am sure it is not what our local Deputies would say is the case in their home town. It is not what our local authority is experiencing in our home town.

In my role in Dundalk Chamber of Commerce, when I want to go out to try to promote my hometown, I want to tell businesses to come and set up in the town. They are going to turn round to me, though, and ask if there will be the water capacity to be able to set up a factory and for housing to be built for their staff to live in.

This all goes back to the major point that I made at the start of my contribution. For the Government’s policy to be successful, and there is very good Government policy in respect of trying to expand Dundalk, we need Government funding to follow it. This is a great example, and I see it time and time again, of the Government having ideas of what it wants to do and where we need to get to, but at the same time the actual vehicles that need to drive that change, namely, Irish Water in this context, are not putting in the funding required.

I thank Mr. McGahon. I had another question, but I am out of time, pretty much, so I will wait until the second round of questions.

We will get back to the Senator. I call Senator Black.

I thank all our witnesses and warmly welcome them. We see chambers spanning the Border region that represent the lived economic reality of the Good Friday Agreement, which is powerful.

I will start with Dr. Patterson, and then I will pose a general question to everybody. The Good Friday Agreement created an expectation of frictionless economic co-operation across the island. This question may be one for all the Northern chambers, if that is okay. Do they think that Brexit fundamentally undermined that promise for their members? Are the current arrangements workable? Do they feel they might need urgent political attention? Is it felt that the Irish Government could be doing more? If so, what would that be? I hope to get back in for a second contribution.

I am happy to give a perspective on that. From our perspective as a Northern chamber, we were promised quite a lot from the Brexit deal by the British Government and it has not really been delivered. We are continually peddled the myth that we have a foot in Europe and a foot in the UK, which in reality is not bearing fruit. Certain industries, some manufacturing perhaps, do benefit from it, but we were definitely sold a pup in relation to having a business environment where we could trade all over the place. When we try to trade with Europe, they tell us we are part of the UK, and when we try to trade with the UK, they tell us we are part of Europe. We hear time and time again from our members that it is very frustrating.

Another issue we had was that not a lot of education was given to the UK companies during the Brexit campaign.

Because it was such a small part of their trade, they just decided it was too hard to deal with Northern Ireland and they decided not to do business with Northern Ireland. We suffered greatly for that. The veterinary deal has solved quite a lot of that but there are still mega issues affecting businesses every day in the North.

The access to labour issue that Michael Savage referred to is a major challenge for us. We effectively lost access to EU citizens, many of whom left the North including many who moved across the Border. Mr. Savage gave a very good example of two sister hotels, one of which employs EU citizens not born on the island but elsewhere in the EU, and one that cannot in Newry. Not having access to knowledge exchange and other transnational programmes within the EU is a major issue, particularly for the likes of Queen's University. DKIT has benefited hugely from the Queen's partnership, which we support, but Queen's was motivated by trying to get a footprint in the EU in order that it could access EU Structural Fund programmes. Those are two issues that we believe are within the gift of the Irish Government working with the British Government. We think they would get support within the EU at the European Council, particularly given Ireland's upcoming Presidency of the EU this year.

There are a few things from a Derry and north-west perspective. We recognise what the Irish Government has done since the Good Friday Agreement has been really important. We have felt it more than others in our region. I will back up what the others have said. Dr. Patterson mentioned the Seanad undertaking a review of cross-Border mobility, which is vital. The cross-Border region tends to get lost in the bigger scheme of things because the numbers are not big, but they are big in the region. Somebody needs to do a dedicated piece of work there because the reality is that Brexit has made a difference and we are not taking advantage of it. The cross-Border mobility review is really important in terms of things like recognising skills on both sides of the Border, apprenticeships and all those sorts of things. It is really difficult to do business. That is the practical side of it.

I also want to speak about infrastructure. The notion of the Structural Fund is really important. Connectivity is massive. We have spoken about the east and the Belfast-Dublin corridor. For the north west, connectivity is vital to us. We have no trains. In order to get a train to Dublin, people in our part of the world are driving to Portadown. That all-Ireland rail review is absolutely critical, as is the wastewater piece. Apart from the A5, we are not planning roads on a cross-Border basis and we are definitely not planning public transport on a cross-Border basis. Those are practical things that the Irish Government could lead on. There are also opportunities around green energy, to hook up the offshore wind on both sides of the Border.

I welcome all the witnesses and thank them for their presentations today. I welcome not only their content but also the relative consistency and uniformity of what is being requested throughout. It has been well documented that the all-Ireland economy is growing considerably but serious challenges still remain for businesses in the Border region and especially for businesses operating in the North. It is worth reflecting on the fact that the success of businesses in the North in facing these intergenerational challenges is an indication of the incredible potential of local businesses and workers and should be something we aspire to.

The challenges we face are incredible and some of them have been documented. The cost of doing business is extreme in the North, not just in relation to recent developments with the cost of living but in respect of some British Government policies such as the national insurance contribution hike, VAT rates on the hospitality sector, the constraints of the agrifood sector and other issues. Small and medium-sized businesses in the North face a challenge that no British business does, which is direct competition from the sector with preferential circumstances here in the Twenty-Six Counties. Shoppers in my constituency have a choice to cross the Border and spend money in the Twenty-Six Counties. No business in Britain faces that challenge when the businesses here are benefiting from preferential circumstances.

The respective difference in public service delivery is stark.

That all points to generations of critical underfunding of public services in the North. The general economic environment in the North means consumers have less spending power and are more economically inactive. That points to the fact that we need a fundamental shift in relation to increasing productivity in the North. That can be done with the political and fiscal will. The North's economy and by extension the all-Ireland economy cannot reach their potential in the current economic and fiscal framework. It is in the interests of this State, even in the absence of constitutional change, to have a sustainably developing economy in the North.

I will make three brief points. Wastewater issue is a huge restrictor in the North; there is no question about it. I welcome the contributions from others who pointed to it also being a considerable issue the regions of the Twenty-Six. I commend the infrastructure minister, Liz Kimmins, for her innovative approach to unlocking capacity in Newry but so much more is needed to address this concern. Many local businesses and employers want to expand, grow and open new sites, their workforce is dedicated as is their consumer base but the restrictor is appropriate sites and wastewater connectivity. I ask Mr. Savage and Dr. Patterson to elaborate on the discussions they have had with NI Water, Uisce Éireann, their engagement with the shared island unit and if other chambers are considering throwing their weight behind such an ask for structured infrastructure investment in the North.

On tourism potential, I mentioned unlocking the potential of Carlingford Lough. If it was anywhere else in central Europe it would be a tourist hot spot but here because development is done in relation to the Border, we are nowhere near maximising its potential. The Narrow Water Bridge gives us an opportunity to do so. What plans are there to maximise the economic potential of the bridge on both sides and would Dundalk and Newry support the extension of Ireland's Ancient East?

If you want an answer Mr. Hughes, I will have to be strict on the five minutes.

The DKIT-Queen's University Belfast agreement is massive. Kids will be able to go to DKIT and earn a degree from Queen's. Think of what that will do to demand for places at DKIT and by extension the demand for many of those young people to live not just in Dundalk but in Newry. That is the vision. Derry is on the same page with its vision for higher education. That is why we are both here with the same ask. Our colleague, Stephen Kelly, is working so hard with the support of the department of the economy in the North, trying to extend higher education in Derry but the problem is the foundational infrastructure such was wastewater. That is a common theme for all of us and a message to take back.

A week is a long time in politics but nearly a week ago there was traffic gridlock and people were saying it was because of the cost of fuel. I saw there were protests in the North as well. Some people were saying it was the added costs and the witnesses spoke about the cost of doing business, connectivity and so on but a huge area is getting goods to markets. A challenge cross-Border in recent years is the HGV haulage levy. How much does that impact? Has there been any improvement in post-Brexit barriers? I heard a witness talk about the cost of parcels and so on. How much is the administration of financial costs, such as customs and bureaucracy, impacting on smaller business? Will the witnesses elaborate on that? Have there been any positive developments post Brexit? Veterinary issues were mentioned. Are the challenges people complained about at that time still there?

Go ahead, Ms Forrester.

I would not know about hauliers very much, but there is that attitude of people just getting on with it. They had to soak it up, and they do.

In terms that we do export documentation for businesses, there definitely has been an increase in certain requirements; I will put it like that. I am speaking as someone from the South. They seem to be able to export, but there are just a few more barriers than there used to be. I do not know whether that is geopolitics or local politics. I am just not sure. We do certificates of origin, and some of our businesses are asking for those for some of their exporting around the world at the moment. It is just a little bit of a barrier. I do not see many cross-Border issues, but that is partly to do with the fact that they have just had to get on with it and absorb the costs. We have a large haulier in County Donegal who has a base in Dublin and they really do not say much at all negatively. They just cope with it. The recent fuel costs, are going to have an effect. There is no doubt about the fact that it will put some of the smaller people out of business at some stage if it does not improve.

I do not hear much about Brexit from my businesses but, again, that goes back to the fact that we just get on with our job because we are cross-Border in nature.

On the HGVs, I think it is £10 per day. It is a significant amount. Then, the fine is £300 if people do not have it in. People are travelling travelling from County Donegal, and there are people from Monaghan here; I remember Clones. People are travelling across two or three times a day. That would not be unusual. It could be five and six times per day. There are all those added costs. That is the challenge. We hear that the Irish Government is going to talk to the British Government in relation to this impact it is having on the all-Ireland economy. It is one area that stands out, which adds to the costs of trying to do business in the Border region.

On cross-Border delivery, somebody mentioned parcels earlier. That is an issue. People have found ways around it, but there are issues with that as well as the cost of everything. I would nod to the fact that the cost of business on both sides of the Border is huge at the moment. This year, we saw auto-enrolment coming in and minimum wage going up. It just seems to be relentless. This is not really for this forum, but the business community, to a certain extent, feel like they are always getting burned, in the South anyway, with another cost. As the Deputy said, for people in Donegal, we are talking significant amounts to move goods back and forward or get goods delivered into the county, with no alternative, plus roads that are not fit for purpose in terms of haulage. We have all of that adding to the problems. I did want to say that I was getting a sense that even though the Irish economy is growing and it is great and it is buoyant, people must remember that where we are in Donegal is peripheral. We are we are maybe not getting the bounce at all that other counties are. We are very keen and ambitious but we are not getting that bounce we maybe see in other places.

I thank everybody so much for being here today. It is great to see so many familiar faces. What is very clear from the statements and what each of and every one of the witnesses spoke about is that each chamber in each region on either side of the Border certainly does not look inward. They all function as twin anchors in urban centres that look together and in between at how they can support each other. I know that on a first hand basis in relation to the work that Newry and Dundalk chambers do together. It is hand in glove, and that is very clear from both statements.

It was pointed out over and over again that the Border is economically invisible in many ways but the administrative burdens create clear distortions in taxation, public investment and service delivery. It is clear that since partition, that mismatch has constrained growth in every way. Chambers clearly identify those infrastructural deficits. Wastewater capacity is a very clear and immediate current barrier. What scale of investment is needed and what has been the progress so far on working towards that?

Some of the witnesses have looked at that.

I ask Mr. McGahon about the impact of the living city initiative on the growth and development of the Dublin economic corridor. It is not just of benefit for Dundalk and Drogheda; it is an integral part of the Dublin-Belfast economic corridor.

In relation to cross-Border workers, the witnesses have spoken about structural problems. What would be an effective remedy committee members could advocate for? What lead has the Executive taken on barriers for EU workers? What work is it doing with Westminster? We know it is a British Government issue. What are Stormont and Westminster working at to make relevant changes for EU workers and to iron out cross-Border issues?

I will take the living city initiative question and leaving the funding and cross-Border issues with others. I thank the Deputy for the question. Dundalk being added to the living city initiative was extraordinary and excellent. I acknowledge the work Dundalk Chamber of Commerce has done over nearly 20 years to advocate for this type of scheme. I acknowledge Paddy Malone, board member and former president of the chamber of commerce. At every opportunity, via pre-budget submission, public consultations, public policy and engagement with Ministers over the past decade, Mr. Malone has advocated for Dundalk to be added to the scheme. I am delighted it has been. I thank Deputies McGreehan and Ó Murchú for their advocacy of adding Dundalk to the living city initiative. I know Senator Comyn has done the same with Drogheda. It is not about Dundalk versus Drogheda. It is fantastic both towns have been added to the initiative. It is really good for the economic growth of our county.

There are two huge benefits to the living city initiative, one related to economics and the other to housing. From an economic perspective, it will be good for construction in the short term because it will create construction jobs on the main street to convert upstairs dead space into one- or two-bed apartments and there will also be the opportunity for units to come back into use. That is good for construction but is also good for the local retail economy. By increasing footfall on streets and having people living above shopfronts, those people will go across to buy a coffee or a newspaper in the shop or to have lunch down the street. The increased footfall is excellent.

From a housing perspective, one of the good things for Drogheda and Dundalk is that Louth County Council in the maps released last Friday incorporated a large proportion of those towns' residential areas. That is a benefit if I have a vacant or derelict house and do not know what to do with it. Not only can I get the €70,000 vacant property grant and the €10,000 SEAI grant, I can apply at the same time to the living city initiative, whereby I can put up to €300,000 into a property and claim it back in tax relief over a number of years. It is excellent Dundalk has been added to it from the points of view of economics and increased housing supply. I thank Deputies McGreehan and Ó Murchú and Senator Comyn for advocating for that on behalf of County Louth.

On the cross-Border tax problem we have and worker mobility, a LEEF report was done a few years ago. I think it was 2024. As far as we can see, it is still sitting there and nothing has been done about it. It is a HMRC and Revenue issue. I am a cross-Border worker, as is Ms Doherty. Our idea is it is not a massive problem and could be solved. I believe both those organisations know who we all are. They know all the PAYE workers because we are all registered. It is becoming an issue. We had an issue recently with someone being refused a mortgage because they worked in one jurisdiction and not the other. That will permeate pensions and other things. It is important we get this sorted.

I support Ms Forrester on that. We have taken the initiative and will go to Westminster and talk to them about it. It is that important. If the committee can help us with it, that is great.

We ask to be kept up to date on that because we really want to support Mr. Lindsay.

Every group has spoken, with some twice. I will take in the three members of the committee who have not spoken: Senator Blaney and Deputies Moynihan and Tóibín. I will take them in order of the time they have been in the room.

Senator Blaney has been here for the longest, then it will be Deputy Shane Moynihan and Deputy Tóibín. If nobody else wishes to speak, Deputy Ó Murchú has asked if he can make a contribution. I will allow him in after that and will then go back to any follow-up questions. Is everyone in agreement? I do not want people saying-----

Agreed.

Right, it is agreed. Deputy Blaney is next.

I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach very much for the promotion.

I am sorry, Senator Blaney.

All the chambers are very welcome. It is great to have a collective voice, particularly for a committee like this. It is good to have all of the chambers in. It is great to see Letterkenny and Derry again, as always, presenting collectively. I have to give credit also to Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown and Bangor chambers coming together as well. They have really shown a way forward, which is great to see.

Many issues have been raised and I will only get to touch on a few of them. I am someone who has been a major advocate of the shared island fund. It has done many positive things. At the same time, I heard Dr. Patterson's frustrations about the shared island fund. It has shown real leadership in regard to infrastructure. I share my frustrations with Dr. Patterson as well. We need to collaborate more on all this.

The A5 would not have been back up again but for the Irish Government putting it on the page in the first place. It was the Executive that took it down in 2016. We put it back on the page again through our funding. It is now being held up by the Executive and by a minister in infrastructure. While the chambers use their voice here, I would like to see them use their voice strongly in Northern Ireland because their lobby is not strong enough. Ministers are getting off too lightly and not standing up to what is asked of them and what should be there, as a minister. There needs to be a strong lobby in Northern Ireland in relation to that because it is very frustrating for us. We have done all we can on this side. We do not have jurisdiction in Northern Ireland. We are limited in what we can do. This is Irish taxpayers' money. We have gone above and beyond what is expected of us but we are determined to do that and would like to see it stepped up more as well.

There is the £35 million to the medical school in Magee College, the Ulster Canal, the Belfast-Dublin rail upgrade and many other projects I could name. We have led on them but there has been so much letdown on the other side and we really need to address it and talk more about it. The Irish Government is stepping back in relation to our addressing of climate change and critical infrastructure projects. It is something the chambers could take on board to lobby on north of the Border, as Stormont does as well because it is not inclined to step up to meet its own ask in relation to delivering projects. This is one way out of it for Stormont. We need practical projects to be delivered and we need practical solutions as well.

In the north west, there has been a lot of collaboration with the likes of Atlantic Technological University, ATU, Magee and Letterkenny over many years. We have seen a lot of good come from that. Similarly, in relation to health, there has been great collaboration on joint services between the two hospitals. For years and years, Derry and Letterkenny have worked collaboratively. We have had the north-west city status for long enough. How could that work better? Are there things we could do better? What are the witnesses' general opinions on that?

Mr. Lindsay will say something on this as well. The north-west strategic growth partnership was set up and resourced for a fair number of years. My feeling at the moment is that it needs resources behind it again. The councils and stakeholders have kept on doing the work and trying to work together. Some would even say they spend more time in the other jurisdiction, if you know what I mean, having meetings. My sense is that it needs to be resourced and to be more embedded into policy as well. That is my feeling.

Those are the two key things. I know it is two different jurisdictions but we need to move beyond that onto where we can actually work and agree policy on a cross-Border basis. The A5 is a great example. We are pushing hard in the North as well but we are not planning things on a cross-Border basis. That would be the next stage, if we could move towards the policy piece on it.

Just to back Ms Forrester up, there is a tertiary education cluster in the north west that is really successful and that is the colleges and universities working together. It is leading edge stuff. Turning that into policy is the next stage and that is a bigger constitutional debate There are all sorts of things in that but if we could begin to plan. Cross-Border mobility for workers is a massive thing. Small things can make a big difference and that is the beginning of the joined-up policy.

I thank the witnesses for making the time to come in today. I know at first hand the impact and really positive output chambers around the island have in the development and formation of policy. We are very grateful for their engagement today. I am also enthused in particular to hear the support for the rail review, which I think is a key enabler for unlocking real connectivity on the island.

I want to return to some of the things alluded to by Senator Blaney and others with regard to skills, lifelong learning and education. One of the big questions I have is, what are the witnesses' views on how we mainstream the approach to lifelong learning? The biggest challenge we will have for the next ten to 15 years is making sure not only that our workforces have the technical skills they need to thrive but also the foundational skills they will need to adapt to what ultimately will be rapidly changing jobs and rapidly bundles of duties within those jobs over the while. What sort of engagement do the witnesses need to see both at policymaking level, whether it be in Dublin or Belfast, but also in terms of collaboration between the colleges and universities, the employer organisations and those hard-to-reach populations, because there are long term unemployed clusters on the island that we need to engage with, tap into and exploit from a skills point of view? Lifelong learning is somewhere the chambers can lead from the front and it is an easy win in terms of making this make sense for labour market mobility in the economy. I do not know who wants to lead off on that.

To echo Mr. Lindsay's point about the tertiary education cluster, they - the colleges, ETBs and universities - have done this in spite of everything. They are delivering what they call the north west digital employment pathways training hub, NW DEPTH, programme and that is about delivering skills across the Border and not taking any notice of the Border, essentially. The small problem is you then get to qualifications, as these courses are more for targeting the population that is not trained up a skill level or people who are working and want to change their skill levels. It is a really brave and good thing for them to do. It shows what they can do when they want to work together. That needs to be embedded somehow in policy but also qualifications need to be recognised cross-Border. It is very complicated and young people, in particular, need to know their qualifications will be recognised.

I am conscious of others here who need to talk so I will be very quick. In regard to that tertiary education cluster, Derry was a UNESCO learning city. They have widened that now so the north-west city region, the cross-Border region, is a learning city region and that is the first one in Europe. That is groundbreaking stuff. The challenge is to turn these projects mainstream. There is the infrastructure to do it through the likes of those guys but they do not have the policy background to it.

We have worked with those who the Deputy called the "hard to reach". I talked to someone and they said the bookies and the pizza delivery drivers can reach them so why can we not? We did a piece of work on the long term economically inactive called the Atlantic Advantage, which is about utilising AI to enable people to develop their own businesses. We do not have time to talk about that project now.

It is called the Atlantic Advantage.

We would love to chat to the Deputy a bit more about that but it is a pretty unique cross-Border project to try to use the tools AI gives you to scale businesses so you do not need capital or employees.

In our part of the world there is the southeast higher education further education industry cross-Border alliance, SECBA, relationship between the colleges in Cavan, Monaghan, Louth and the Southern Regional College, SRC, on the Northern side, which are working on a number of initiatives.

We, as a chamber, have been leading a skills partnership with all our education and training providers, and making sure that some of the training programmes that we run with the likes of Clanrye Group, for example, reach those who have been economically inactive and try to create opportunities for those who have neurological issues, bringing them into the workforce. The chamber is very much joined at the hip with those organisations in doing that. We are very much central to bringing the business community close to those organisations that are responsible for recruitment. We had a simple event recently where we had 197 14-year-olds in company with a number of large companies and firms. We did a showcase event to instill in those young people that those companies are on their doorsteps and their futures are there. One of the big issues we have is retaining our young people and making sure they do not leave these shores or areas, or potentially come to the South. It is only a hop and a skip down the road in some cases to some other job. We have done a lot of work across all those sectors. It is a challenge, but is something that we do on a continual basis and we work hand in glove with all the organisations that are key stakeholders in that.

Through our partnership with Bangor, we have submitted a few shared island funding applications. For one of those, we would bring in representatives of the Institute of Art, Design and Technology, IADT, University College Dublin, UCD, and relevant partners in the North. It is about bringing in those education bodies. There are also work placements that our members want to offer on a cross-Border basis. The opportunity is there and it is just about harnessing it now.

Gabhaim buíochas leis na finnéithe as teacht isteach inniu. Approximately eight years ago, I did a study for the enterprise committee here in Leinster House. That study was on the all-Ireland economy. As part of that study, I interviewed approximately 100 people, North and South, from all different backgrounds and sectors. At the end of it, pretty much everybody agreed that if we plan, fund and deliver together, there will be better infrastructure and services. When the Good Friday Agreement came in first, there was a big jump in the level of partnership and development, but since then it seems to be very ad hoc. There is good stuff happening here and there, but there does not seem to be a governmental role in taking a systematic look at all the blockages, North and South. Perhaps a group within the shared island group or another group is required to sit down and ask what are all the blockages, including, for example, taxation, that can be systematically gone through and deleted over a five-year period so that business and enterprise has a far easier way. Are there any views on that?

Somebody else may wish to start.

Mr. Savage and I met Hilary Benn MP three weeks ago. We made the simple point that the Good Friday Agreement established a precedent. We said that perhaps a framework is needed, but we clearly had one of those. Perhaps a protocol is required, but we did get one of those. What is the point? The North is different. The UK Government has acknowledged that. Brexit forced it to acknowledge that point. We are asking for more money, ideally, to the point made by Senator Blaney, but it is less about that and more about the influence that the Irish Government has over the British Government. If the Irish Government really wants policy to shift within the UK jurisdiction, we believe that this British Government would be willing to listen and would amend policy. However, we need the Irish Government to be more assertive. A framework protocol agreement on tax is required, and on other distortions that militate against us. One of the issues we have in both jurisdictions is competition for labour. The partition boundary creates challenges in various sectors, depending on which side of the Border you are on. There may be problems in one sector in Newry but the same problems may prevail in another sector in Dundalk. The same is true of Derry, Donegal, Dún Laoghaire and Bangor, and everywhere else. It is about acknowledging that policy needs to shift, and that will only happen at intergovernmental level.

I tend to agree about the need to break things into smaller blocks. I mentioned health earlier. I know this is not specifically about business, but I thought it was a good example.

Cooperation and Working Together, CAWT, is a cross-Border organisation. It has been helping to deliver cross-Border healthcare. I do not know all the details. There is a cancer centre. Senator Blaney will probably know more about this than me. There is heart surgery. If somebody has a heart attack in north Donegal, he or she is brought to Altnagelvin Area Hospital. There were probably big barriers to that at one stage. People probably wondered how they would deal with the issue, but somebody did. It was not the work of CAWT on its own. Politicians must have come together to do that. I agree that if everybody had the will, we could be delivering far more of those things and far better services for our people in general.

Our two councils sent delegations to New York and Boston last year and we went with them. They got 12 companies together from both sides of the Border, and it was amazing to see their co-operation and what they are doing now to follow up. If we used some of the best examples we have, including the cancer centre, facial surgery and those kinds of things, we could be delivering for everybody in the Border region. There needs to be the will.

There is a big topic in the North of Ireland at the moment, which is the lack of funding coming from Britain. That is currently squeezing all the public services. Cuts are planned in certain areas. "Distortion" was a very good choice of word. The Border distorts enterprise, North and South. The North's tax-raising ability is about 5%. Some 5% of its expenditure is raised through rates. Some 10% of expenditure in Wales is raised through local taxes. In Scotland, 25% of expenditure is raised through local taxes. Permission for the devolution of corporation tax to the North has been granted but has never been implemented. The big issue that has come up in recent weeks is excise, which is distorting fuel prices on both sides of the Border and leading to the boom-bust cycle, especially along the Border. Is it not time for major efforts to be made to increase the taxation-raising ability of the North so it can provide better for its own citizens and start to delete those distortions that are happening for enterprise?

I thank the Deputy. We can bank that question and it will be answered as part of the next round. I call Deputy Ó Murchú.

I only asked two questions.

That is all anyone asked. Everyone has five minutes. I was strict all morning and will not break that habit. Everyone was given an extra half a minute and the Deputy has had an extra minute. If everybody here could-----

I am just worried. Deputy Ó Murchú's time will now be eaten up by witnesses answering my questions.

He will only get five minutes, too. I call Deputy Ó Murchú.

The witnesses should answer Deputy Ó Murchú's question.

To follow on from Deputy Tóibín, we all know, as Dr. Patterson said, the legacy issues of partition that still impact us today. There is also the legacy of Brexit. We have had issues around remote workers and taxation for a considerable period. We went through a period where we were never getting those issues sorted with a British Government run by Boris Johnson. There is now an opportunity to deal with them.

There has to be agreement, but there also must be a certain element of intent from the Irish Government. I remember dealing with the Tánaiste on questions around all these cross-Border issues. He spoke about a clearing house that we could use to address them. We talk about qualifications across the university sector or in respect of those doing apprenticeships. We keep talking about it, but have not seen anything implemented. The remote working scenario requires a deal between Revenue and His Majesty's Revenue and Customs, HMRC, which means a bilateral agreement with the British Government. We need intent from the Irish Government and it is a matter of making sure that happens. That was not so much a question as a statement of fact.

I thank Mr. McGahon, as I would anyone who namechecks me. I agree with his commendation of Paddy Malone, not just in respect of the living city initiative but also in relation to the M1 Border corridor and the huge level of work he has done. I also commend Mr. McGahon, Mr. Savage and Dr. Patterson for ensuring that issue is brought to the fore. It requires whatever means we can use to facilitate what will be the spine of economic activity and growth, into the future.

They have stated explicitly what the issues are with wastewater infrastructure. I live in a place in Dundalk where we nearly get flooded every time it rains and unfortunately not just with water. It is a joint water and sewerage system. The dates we get, whether for the Coes Road or the Dundalk treatment plant, have gone from 2027 to 2029, and then we were talking about 2030 to 2033 and 2035. We need that dealt with for economic growth in that area. We also had reserved lands available if there was serious industrial investment. I am not sure we have any of those capacity issues dealt with. Will the witnesses deal with that? I also reiterate the point about the clearing house. HGVs and the toll is a huge issue, as is the taxation issue.

I will leave Deputy Tóibín's issue to others and touch on mine and Deputy Ó Murchú’s home area. Consider the M1 and the concept around it. I jotted down a couple of statistics. The M1 corridor is the region between Dublin and Belfast. If I were in the IDA trying to promote a region to businesses outside the State, I would not just be trying to promote Dundalk, Newry or Derry. I would be trying to promote the region because that is where large-scale infrastructure and companies will look at. When we look at that region, 2.7 million people live in that corridor. That is 39% of the population of the island of Ireland. Some 45% of third level graduates live in that area. There are 22,000 STEM graduates and three international airports in that area. There are 136 daily flights between the UK, the US and Europe. There are four deep-sea ports. That is a fantastic economic engine on which to base everyone's prosperity. It is excellent, and it is vital that the Government, the IDA, Enterprise Ireland and the eight local authorities, from Dublin City Council, Fingal County Council and up to Belfast City Council, continue to promote the M1 corridor because it works. It works when the IDA uses it to promote the region.

Deputy Ó Murchú mentioned the reserved lands. We have so much greenfield site development and so much opportunity for that site development there. We have many opportunities for second site locations where existing businesses in Ireland may want to open up a site closer to that. We have many sites for UK companies operating in the UK that want a foothold into the European Union. None of that will be utilised unless, as the Deputy said, we back it up with the funding for wastewater capacity and infrastructure. My premise at the start, not to repeat myself, is that the Government has good policy initiatives for where we need to get to, but they are not being properly backed up with funding into vehicles like Irish Water that will help us get there in the first instance. I totally agree.

The Government should do that.

On this occasion, yes. The benefit is that I am now in a role where I can say that. I am very much enjoying it.

We can have 20 seconds on Deputy Tóibín's question.

The North could not change corporation tax in isolation from the rest of the island. There is also the fact that it is isolated from Britain. The North is significantly underfunded as it is and HMRC would require a trade-off of approximately £1 billion if the North were to default to the same level of corporation tax as the South. I will make a point on health. Daisy Hill Hospital has the mirror problem that DkIT had. DkIT could only realise its potential by harvesting a collaboration with the North. Daisy Hill Hospital does not currently have a hinterland in the South that it can harvest. It only has half a hinterland. It cannot get the number of surgeries it needs to remain a viable acute hospital and realise its potential. There are multiple examples. You cannot isolate the North and say it should change tax policy without recognising that it sits in the context of two jurisdictions.

There are areas of the Good Friday Agreement that are not being looked at and that provide for a joint health plan, and joint environmental and joint urban planning. That is the message we will leave the committee with.

This is an interesting session. I thank all the witnesses and acknowledge the work they do. They are doing good work. It is obvious to me that the businesses and organisations they are running are far ahead of government. We obviously have a misalignment with policy and infrastructure and the strategies and visions they have.

It is nice to see my old colleague, Mr. McGahon again. I could ask him some really difficult questions, but I only have five minutes, so I will not. I am struck by the whole co-guarantor role of the Irish and British Governments and the framework necessary. It is clear to me what the Irish Government needs to do. If we wait for the British Government to do what we wish it to do, it will always be a case of us wishing for it to do things. What needs to be done is well documented. Indeed, we documented it in our own cross-party report on the finance and economics of the Good Friday Agreement approximately two years ago under the chairmanship of Fergus O'Dowd. We need the implementation. The first thing I suggest is that we write collectively, cross-party, from the committee, taking the key points the witnesses have brought forward to the Taoiseach, who is in charge of the shared island unit, and to the Minister for Finance, asking him to address the framework on tax, mortgages, pensions and the recognition of qualifications. We need to ask for firm implementation. When we had the health experts before the committee looking at the all-island health service, it was clear they were telling us they could not deliver optimum healthcare on the island of Ireland without doing it on an all-island basis, regardless of one's constitutional preference. What I am hearing from the witnesses is that they cannot optimise the outcomes from business without us getting out of their way in some instances and having the all-island approach. We can articulate that in a letter from the committee to the Minister for Finance and the Taoiseach. I commend the north-west strategic partnership and the tertiary education cluster. They are doing fantastic things with little help. I see the innovation coming from individuals there and the potential of how that would grow. Will they tell me what it looks like when they say the region should be treated as one entity? Leo Varadkar also talked about a transition fund at one point. We can tap into PEACEPLUS and that. Would that address a lot of the infrastructure issues here? There are things that can be done overnight. That is a question for each of the witnesses. Will they identify the one thing that can be done overnight that does not cost any money but is a change in the system? The other question is about what key infrastructure project they would want to see delivered or implemented.

I thank the Deputy for her comments on the north west. I think what she is proposing could help us significantly. It is about policy and thinking about the region not as a cross-Border region but as an economic region. That is the problem at the moment. She is right that it is unlikely to come from the North and from Britain. There needs to be a catalyst to maybe start with the north west as the area where we could begin to see how we really deliver. We have lots of good projects but it is about mainstreaming those. There are loads of ideas but they tend to end whenever the funding for them ends, and they are lost. It is about learning because that is not how people build their lives. If we could be a test bed for some of the new policy the Deputy is proposing that would be a good way to go. That is not trying to steal a march on anybody else.

Not at all.

Our geography is such that people do not live their lives as if there is a border.

There should never be a competition between the two.

It is not.

We have not got the infrastructure. We know the western transport corridor would help mobility as well. That is even from the point of view of getting into Dublin from Donegal.

I know about that for sure. I come from Mayo.

It is the same.

On transition, we want the shared island fund to look at transition and for it to consider that we were underfunded for more than 40 years.

We had a very turbulent time. The British Exchequer was looking more at security spending than putting pipes under the ground, so we have not really fulfilled the potential we were expecting from an economic peace dividend. One simple thing that could be done overnight is a proposal we are putting to the British Government at the moment. It is a Northern Ireland-specific frontier worker expansion. It costs nothing. All it needs is a tweak in the legislation on the British side, with a bit of an overview from the Home Office, but it would allow for freedom of movement on the island. Where people perhaps have businesses on both sides of the Border, it would allow them to share staff and be able to use them, particularly those from the EU who have been here since 2020 and did not have settled status.

We have a few minutes left. We have to be out of here by 1.30 p.m. so I will allow the three Senators two minutes each for a question, not a speech, to be fair to everyone. Senator Blaney is first and then I will go to Senators Murphy and Kelleher.

I acknowledge my former colleague and former member of this committee, Mr. McGahon, who made many good contributions over the years on North-South issues. He was a very good contributor. I know Mr. Savage, who is also a former politician. It is good to see that collaboration because it brings a better relationship between houses of decision-making such as the ones here and in Stormont and that is good.

The Belfast-Dublin corridor was referred to earlier. There was talk at one stage of developing that rail line to speed rail. If we start by adding a speed rail to Belfast, we might not stop in Dundalk. It might be more appropriate to upgrade the line and have a faster rail on it and in turn, develop it back to Derry. The Derry link to Belfast is a fantastic scenic route. It is probably one of the most scenic in Europe and it gives Donegal the best connectivity on a short-term basis, with a link to Letterkenny, which we fought hard to get into the rail. The Minister at the time waited to announce that project, because there was no infrastructure minister in Northern Ireland. What is the witnesses' opinion on that? Can they use their offices to lobby for it?

They have one minute. Can one person respond?

My understanding is that the Dublin Belfast Economic Corridor, DBEC, is lobbying hard for additional funding for a high-speed rail link and upgrade in a plan by 2030. Newry, Mourne and Down District Council is the lead on that at the moment. The Senator will have seen a recent document called Newry Next, which looked at how that connectivity would potentially lead to the need to develop the greater Newry region as a commuter belt of Dublin. We are already contributing staff, workforce and talent to this region, as Dr. Patterson said. However, we do not want to hollow out the place we live in for it to be a commuter belt of Dublin. We want to grow our economy. We have great opportunities with dual market access. Our location is strategic in that way. The only way we will get that strategic location to pay dividends economically is if we get the infrastructure to supply brownfield sites.

Can I get 30 seconds on the other half?

No, sorry. I want to be fair to every person. Senator Murphy has two minutes.

The big picture in this is the work between the two Governments. The Executive can play a role, but it is limited. We have the British-Irish Governmental Conference, which is a function of the Good Friday Agreement, the new summit arrangements between Britain and Ireland, and the North-South Ministerial Council, but there does not seem to be a home for the issues the witnesses are talking about, such as transitional funding, cross-Border mobility, recognition of qualifications and all those things. Do they have any suggestions? They have had a conversation with the secretary of state in the North. Can these vehicles be adapted to improve this work or is there a need for a new vehicle?

Our sense was that the current British Government is very willing, if the Irish Government is motivated to listen and be as facilitative as it can. It is interested in looking at new ways of doing things better to improve the situation in the North. It is down to the willingness of the Irish Government to assert its co-guarantorship, not stray beyond it, but act within its limits. That can be hugely influential.

I believe, and I think our members will confirm, that we can deliver cross-community and cross-party political consensus within the North. There is now agreement that greater collaboration is needed. That is my belief.

Does Senator Kelleher have a question?

I do. I am heartened to hear the emphasis on balanced regional development. Due to time limitations, I will not go into it very much. We have some excellent examples in Dundalk-Newry, Derry-Londonderry-Letterkenny and Bangor-Dún Laoghaire Rathdown, of organic relationships that have developed to serve communal interests of the various chambers. I will return to a suggestion made by Ms Cunningham about the proposal to establish a Border-specific organisation to promote development between chamber organisations. In the limited time left, do people think that is feasible and workable or has their experience been that the organic development of relationships between chambers has proven to be sufficiently successful?

Organic relationships are probably more successful because people have to find ways of working together. For years, we sort of worked together but in the past few years, especially since Brexit, we have tried to do something firm. We are not doing this with resources. We are doing it just because it is the right thing to do. I would not be-----

I see people nodding. Due to time constraints, can I come back to Ms Cunningham? She mentioned difficulties Carrickmacross Chamber of Commerce has in identifying----

I think it is our size. I have learned a lot from coming here today. It is obvious the whole middle has perhaps issues. Maybe it is our own fault - do not get me wrong - but scale-wise, we are volunteers. I do not know whether there are paid members of a chamber here. I have not seen that fostering happen with Fermanagh or Armagh. Cavan is not here today either. It is obvious that there is a corridor on the east and one on the-----

Is Ms Cunningham more confident today that exploring such relationships might be a realistic possibility?

I have learned a lot and it has raised a few issues for me and the chamber. We do not have the resources. That is a fact. We operate, as Deputy Maxwell knows well, on a county-wide basis and co-operate with as many people as possible. I would not know who to connect with in Northern Ireland and in our location historically, we would never have been encouraged to look North. One of the best organisations in our area was the Plato Blackwater networking organisation, which others were also probably part of. Maybe it is our own fault. Maybe there is nothing there. I do not know.

The elephant in the room in the North at the moment is the fiscal dependence on London. A lot of different difficulties arise because of it. I mentioned corporation tax. In the South, when corporation tax rates were lower, the amount of corporation tax taken in massively increased. Scotland can provide far more for its citizens and enterprise sector because it has more levers and more of a taxation handle. I do know the name of the gentleman who is second from last. He is looking to come in. Does he want to address that?

I will probably correct one of our colleagues and I hope Senator Murphy will back me up. There is a mechanism for corporation tax to be changed in Northern Ireland. It is at the reduction of the block grant, but as Deputy Tóibín rightly pointed out, the South did it and after a period it raised more revenue. It is about bold moves and the Northern Ireland Executive is not able at the moment to make those bold decisions, like on water charges. It offsets quite a lot of stuff. The rest of the UK - MPs and constituents - do not get what we get in Northern Ireland. There is a long hard look to be taken. As business people, we can identify that because in business we have to cut costs and do other things. We have to make hard decisions. We might have to make people redundant or whatever it may be. Certainly, we feel that and our members' meetings tend to ask why politicians cannot make similar hard decisions as those we make in our businesses.

Is there much co-operation between the LEOs down South and Invest NI up North?

There is between the LEOs and the local enterprise agencies. Invest NI has radically restructured. Its chief executive is a former IDA employee. The focus is much more on all-Ireland collaboration.

Invest NI has a staff of 650 people. That is incredible in looking at how we can reduce costs and the output that achieves. I know Senator Murphy made efforts to try to change that and there were big reviews and different bits and pieces.

There are three enterprise bodies. There is InterTradeIreland, Invest NI, Enterprise Ireland, as well as the IDA.

I thank the members. I had to run it tight on time because we have come down to the wire. I did not get a chance for my final question. The chambers of commerce and Monaghan Town Team in my hometown are important. I always say that politicians are politicians and have one view, but business, manufacturing and industry have a different view. Their job is to get on and get it done. When Brexit came, we saw what businesses did in Northern Ireland and the Republic. They got on, made the best of it and kept going forward trying to grow. It is important that the witnesses came in here today. We heard about all the collaborations and work that is ongoing. It is important, as Mr. McGahon said.

I am from a Border town. One year a Border town is doing well but then it skips across the Border and there is a bit of trying to draw people in. It is about the region. That is what we need to work on so it is a region people want to come to visit. One town could be up today and then the next town is up. We try to work it that way. If we get into the quagmire of one town having to be against another, that is not a good place to be. We need to work for the region.

The M1 corridor is a success. The N2 through my county to Aughnacloy and into Derry is critical. We do not have a train service or a good road up there, so that is critical. I know the Irish Government is committed to doing Ardee to Castleblayney, Clontibret to the Border and Ballygawley to Derry. That Aughnacloy interchange has not even been designed yet. That needs to be designed and worked on to help mid-Ulster and that whole area. It all has to be done and it will benefit the whole region.

I thank the witnesses for coming in and I wish them a safe journey home. We are going to Belfast next month for the signing of new trains for the Enterprise service. That has been a massive success. I have used it and I am sure Mr. McGahon used it. Now you cannot get parking at Dundalk train station. Deputy Ó Murchú is still here and he knows it.

They got rid of spaces and need to rectify it, not that I want to make a political point at this stage.

It just shows that when you provide the service people will use it. I was using it and it was a great service. Now I cannot because unless you arrive at six or half past six in the morning you will not get parking. It is something we need to look at if we are going to provide these cross-Border services. I believe parking is even a problem in Newry station. I wish everybody safe home and I thank the members for agreeing to do this.