We are continuing with our engagement on road safety. The committee's focused programme of work in this regard comes against the backdrop of a horrendous year in which more than 150 precious lives were lost on Irish roads. In the context of today's meeting, 30 motorcyclists lost their lives on Irish roads last year, which is the highest number for 25 years.

Today, we will be discussing road safety with the Dublin Motorcycle Touring Club, the Irish Motorcycle Association and RoSPA IART. On behalf of the committee, I am pleased to welcome: Mr. Frank Cronin and Mr. Jim McGrath, senior committee members, from the Dublin Motorcycle Touring Club; Mr Michael Noonan, public relations officer, from the Irish Motorcycle Association; and Mr. Declan Ward, treasurer, from RoSPA IART.

I have a few notes on privilege. For our witnesses, I remind you of our long-standing parliamentary practice that you should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if your statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, you will be directed by me to discontinue your remarks and it is imperative that you comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that you should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to him or her identifiable. Finally, I remind members of the constitutional requirement that you must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement.

In this regard, I ask any member taking part via MS Teams that they confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus prior to making a contribution.

On behalf of the Dublin Motorcycle Touring Club, I invite Jim to make his opening statement.

This is all new to me.

That is grand. Does Mr. McGrath just want to make a few introductory remarks?

I have been riding motorcycles since I was 16. I still ride them, which I love to do. In the years that I have been riding them I have only had one accident, and that was not my fault. I was coming around a bend at the legal speed limit and a German van came down in front of me. I was lucky that I was going at the right speed and in the right position on the road. I could have been killed but I was not; I am still here.

The club that I belong to has 185 members. When we celebrated our 50th anniversary, we went back through the past 50 years. Five members of the club had been killed. In three cases, it was not their fault. Two of the deaths were due to rider error, for the want of a better word. That is basically where I am coming from. In the group I belong to, Frank is big into the training. I have never done any training, as such, but I have read lots of books on it. I enjoy my bike and I would like to be able to continue to enjoy it. That is basically where I am coming from.

With regard to road safety, I play my part and a lot of the guys in the club play their part but when I go out for a spin on a Sunday or whenever - anytime I go out on my bike - I could witness dreadful driving from car drivers. If we were to break down and analyse how many accidents were not the fault of the motorcyclist, that should be highlighted when there is a bike accident. That is basically where I am coming from.

I thank Mr. McGrath very much. I invite Mr. Noonan to make his opening statement on behalf of the Irish Motorcyclists' Association.

I am the PRO of the IMA. We are also affiliated to the Federation of European Motorcyclists' Associations, FEMA. We have a very strong presence in Brussels. We represent about 350,000 riders throughout Europe. With FEMA, we are also connected with FIM, which is the International Federation of Motorcyclists. We have quite a large connection in that regard. We spend quite a lot of time in Brussels. I will be over there on Friday. We have direct access to the European Parliament. We deal with all the legislative matters that come in. We get foresight of all that type of stuff. The EU Parliament has been quite good at taking on board a lot of our suggestions and producing various reports, which have been quite interesting, forensic and give facts and figures around bits and pieces.

For my sins, I am also associated with the International Association of Emergency Managers, which represents police, fire brigade and ambulance, and State facilities that use motor bikes as a response unit. That is a worldwide organisation, which includes America, Australia, Asia and Africa. There is quite a lot of interconnection and we get to see a large amount of information, especially forensic information around accidents, what causes them and all that type of stuff.

I also do biking in my spare time. I do a couple of things engaged with biking. Currently, I travel about 100,000 miles a year on bikes. Over the past ten years I have covered over 1 million miles, accident-free and points-free, and often in emergency circumstances because I am an advanced rider and a blue light rider. Like Mr. McGrath said, it is not uncommon if I am out on a bike, within an hour or two, to see nearly three or four near instances of people in cars or vans doing all sorts of things while going to work every day. Once they are in a vehicle, they feel that nothing else exists outside. I am up a little bit higher on a bike and I see quite a lot going on and what people in cars engage in.

We try to get involved in the whole general sphere. It is very difficult. We try to engage with the Road Safety Authority, RSA, but we do not have much contact with it. As we are the representative body, we find that a little bit strange. I have tried to engage with it for five to seven years. I have had the same discussion with Donna Price, from the Irish Road Victims Association. It was nearly ten years before it got to engage with the RSA.

In terms of road safety in this country, the information that comes out via the authority does not necessarily reflect the information I get from the European Parliament, which is only six to eight weeks late in terms of its publication. On Friday, when I am over there we will get figures from 31 December 2025, whereas the likes of the RSA produces information and statistics that are nearly five years old and are based only on closed book accidents. In actual fact, the figures that we see in the news do not reflect the reality. That materialised at the latest conference because the accidents reported are only those notified by the Garda. If the Garda have not been involved, the accidents are not reported, and there are is an awful amount of that.

A lot of the accidents boil down to the change in poor driving standards. We are taught how to drive a car but we are not brought onto the motorway. When people get their licence, they are out on to the motorway and they are in strange territory. That is why we have what is happening on the M50 every day. This group really needs to look at the type of training that is going on and how people are being trained. I do not understand how training is going backwards. Accident rates should not be the way they are given the level of training that exists. That reflects the input that is coming from a training point of view.

I am riding bikes between 50 and 60 years at this stage and I have seen it all. It is a strange situation. A little bit of work is needed to look at information. The insurance industry informs us that 80% plus of the accidents involving motorbikes are caused by other parties. The bikes are between 15% and 18% are fault. That is a little bit of food for thought, as against what is circulated, which is that bikes are the strongest factor in it. Speed, while a relative factor, is ranked around seventh or eighth. Failure to take due care and attention causes quite a lot of accidents.

We have a lot of information, which we would love to share with the Road Safety Authority. It might be too complex for the RSA, but a forensic analysis of a large number of accidents did show a significant number of anomalies in what was going on. The real issue is that current campaigns focus on speed. I just use that as an example, whereas road design, infrastructure and the failure to use indicators are also important. What does a yellow flashing light on a car mean? It just means that the bulb works. An indicator is supposed to be an intention of what the driver is about to do, but that does not really happen at all. It is sniper alley when you are on a bike. You have to be very careful, alert and awake when you are on the roads. A focus must be put on looking at all the other factors involved in accidents. Speed is not the only one, as there are other bits and pieces in that regard. Hopefully we can start a bit of a thought process and shake the bulb moving forward. I would like to do another 50 years on bikes, if I survive that length.

I thank Mr. Noonan. I invite Mr. Ward to make his opening statement on behalf of RoSPA IART.

I thank the Cathaoirleach and committee for inviting our group today to present to it. I am here at short notice to represent IART because our chairman is at his daughter's wedding. IART is one of 60 local voluntary groups in the UK and Ireland accredited by RoSPA, which is the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents in the UK. IART stands for Irish Advanced Rider Training. The aim of all the RoSPA groups is to improve motorcycle safety and to share knowledge and experience with our members.

The main aims of the group are to encourage an interest in road safety, reduce road casualties by improving riding standards and behaviour, promote standards for advanced motorcycle riding, and encourage and help riders to prepare for and pass the RoSPA advanced motorcycle test.

The RoSPA test is internationally recognised as the gold standard of competency in motorcycle riding. Membership of IART is open to all riders who hold a full, valid category A licence. A minimum of €25 per year is charged to cover administration, the website and some rooms that we hire from time to time when we hold class-type presentations.

For the annual fee, members receive all the necessary guidance to help them achieve and maintain a RoSPA gold or silver riding standard. To maintain the grade, riders retest every three years.

IART was founded in October 2010 and was the first RoSPA motorcycle group in Ireland. As of February 2026, we have over 200 members from around the country, including 50 group and advanced tutors. In 2025, we finished with in excess of 300 members. We reset on the beginning of the year. All tutors are unpaid volunteers, and we encourage members who pass the RoSPA test to continue their journey and train as a tutor. That is how we can keep things moving.

Advanced riding is a deliberate, skilful and responsible riding technique. An advanced rider is able to anticipate and control situations to reduce his or her accident risk. An advanced rider is equipped with the knowledge and skill to ride safely in all conditions. Advanced riding is based on the system of motorcycle control, which is from a publication called Motorcycle Roadcraft: The Police Riders Handbook. This is used by all the emergency services in the UK and forms a key reference for riding instructors. A version of Motorcycle Roadcraft is used by the Garda to train its motorcyclists. The benefits include reducing the risk of having a crash; advanced riders have been proven less likely to be involved in a road traffic incident; and by using the system of motorcycle control, riding becomes smoother and more enjoyable.

From provisional results from the RSA on fatalities in 2025, which are being contradicted by my colleague here, we can see there was an increase, up from 17 in 2024 to 30 in 2025, for motorcyclists. That is 13 families mourning the loss of a loved one. The year 2025 saw the highest number of drivers, motorcyclists and cyclists killed compared to the previous five years in Ireland. The figures do not include serious or other life-changing injuries.

If members travel the M50, as has been mentioned, they will regularly see some appalling behaviour from road users. Particularly noticeable is the lack of attention and awareness of their surroundings from many drivers. Distracted driving is a huge problem. One can regularly see mobile phones in use and people having breakfast or lunch while driving. In addition, they will see lane hopping without indication and centre lane hogging. Some of this behaviour is selfishness, but also due to the lack of proper training in the use of motorways. Lane hopping, in particular, puts motorcyclists at great risk.

Motorcyclists are not only at risk on motorways. Towns, cities and rural roads present hazards to a motorcyclists. One of the more common problems encountered by motorcyclists is vehicles pulling out in front of them. We use the word SMIDSY – sorry mate, I didn’t see you - when a car pulls out and causes a collision. One area that could help motorcyclists is to be allowed the use of bus lanes. A bus lane is a far safer place to be than sitting among traffic where they could be crushed from behind. The motorcyclist can be seen and have a better view of the surrounding traffic. They are not impeding buses and can easily move out of the way in the event that they have to. In some areas in the UK, motorcyclists are allowed to use bus lanes, but not in all.

Then, we have the hierarchy of vulnerable road users. Many countries have introduced this into their rules of the road. It was introduced to the highway code in the UK in January 2022. The hierarchy of road users is a safety framework that recognises that some people on the road are more vulnerable than others. Those who can cause the greatest harm, like drivers of large vehicles, carry the greatest responsibility to act in a way that reduces danger to people who are more at risk. At the top of the hierarchy are pedestrians, especially children, older people and disabled people. Next are cyclists, horse riders and then us, the motorcyclists, followed by drivers of cars and taxis and then larger vehicles and vans. The concept of personal responsibility is core to road safety. We often find courts extremely lenient. There have been cases in recent times where vehicular manslaughter resulted in suspended sentences or a minimum fine.

Bikesafe, re-introduced by An Garda Síochána in recent years, is an excellent service. Unfortunately, up to now, there are insufficient places to meet demand. I believe this is due to lack of resources with the Garda motorcycle units. This needs to be addressed urgently.

We have lots of laws relating to traffic in Ireland. Unfortunately, drivers have learned that they are unlikely to get caught breaking these laws. This is human nature at work. The problem is lack of visibility of the Garda on the roads. I believe this is due to lack of resources, once again, with roads policing. If the Garda was more visible, it might be a different story.

The last topic is speed limits. It is not speed that kills. It is inappropriate driving or riding in the prevailing conditions. However, the higher the speed, the greater the consequences on impact. A blanket reduction in appropriate places could cause a lack of buy-in by many road users. Such reductions may simply be ignored by the reckless and-or inexperienced without fully developed skills in hazard assessment or risk management. Speed limits are not a target. One must drive to the prevailing conditions. On the final point, I do not know whether it is possible, but would it be possible to release collision reports, as is done in aviation, where we can learn from the cause of the accident? We do not have to name the individuals involved. We have been told before that general data protection regulation, GDPR, is the problem, but I do not see why that should be. We want to learn from what has happened. I thank members.

I thank Mr. Ward very much. Indeed, I thank all our witnesses for their opening statements and initial perspectives. There is no doubt that motorcyclists are among our most vulnerable road users. The increase in fatalities last year is deeply concerning. It is almost double the number of fatalities in 2024. Again, it is really important that this committee acknowledges and is always conscious that behind those statistics are families and often communities devastated as a result of a loved one. In terms of all of our work we do as committee members, we are always conscious of the families. The families are at the centre of what we do. I am really looking forward to what I hope is constructive discussion in the next couple of hours. We will facilitate questions from members. The first speaker is Deputy Donnelly, who is deputising for Deputy Daly. He has eight minutes.

I thank everybody very much for being here and presenting today. It is something I see every day. I am a cyclist, so we do a slower version of what the witnesses do. There are serious dangers we face, obviously, both cyclists and motorcyclists, and that is the condition of road surfaces. I have noticed over the past couple of months in particular that the road surfaces across the country have deteriorated hugely. There are bigger potholes, and new potholes emerging. That is a huge issue for motorcyclists because they are going on at a particular speed. Cyclists can see pretty much see them coming. On motorcycles, it is really difficult.

There are a couple of issues and a few specific questions I would like to ask. The issue of hierarchy of road users is really interesting. I first discovered this when we went over on a cycling tour to Holland and how the Dutch pretty much frame all of the infrastructure around the hierarchy of road users. We are decades behind a lot of Europe on that and on how we could do it in a quicker way to make it safer for people.

The other issue is around the lack of information and the RSA. I am interested in that. The groups raised that issue of the lack of information and that feeding then into policy. Generally, what feeds into policy is information. On Bikesafe and the Garda, Mr. Ward said that it is not resourced. Who does that?

The issue there is that there are an awful lot more people who want to do the Bikesafe course than there are slots available. The reason is there are very few gardaí on motorcycles to provide that service. By the way, it is voluntarily done by the gardaí. They do it on their own time as far as I know.

My son is learning to drive at the moment. He has to do his 12 driving lessons, and it all has to be registered and all those things. Is that the same for motorbikes? What way does it work when people are learning how to drive a motorbike?

They have to do their initial basic training, IBT, and the normal number of hours to get their licence.

It is, therefore, the same process as a car where they have X number of hours.

More or less.

Enforcement is a huge issue. Again, anybody who drives, walks or cycles will see that the lack of gardaí on the roads has massively increased the number of people who are getting away with stuff and really dangerous driving.

What specific things would the witnesses like to see in terms of enforcement?

I would like to see more gardaí on the roads. If I go out this afternoon on my bike, I guarantee that I will see somebody on the road in a car do something stupid. I will give an example. I recently saw two foreign nationals - people of a different colour - going up the back of the Sugar Loaf, on both sides of the road using the white line as their guide. Trucks come down there at a ferocious rate. They could have been cleaned out of it. I have seen people at the end of the Naas Road texting while I was driving along, and they were coming into my lane. They are just examples of what we see. There need to be more gardaí out on the roads, and they need to be in the right places. They need to be on the regional R roads because that is where a lot of the speeding is done. People know there is no one around, and I think that is where a lot of the accidents happen. Having them on motorways is not enough, in my opinion, and they would be better on the regional and local roads.

Mr. Cronin is a trainer.

Yes. I am a RoSPA IART-recognised tutor. For me, enforcement presumes that the people who are using the road know the rules in the first instance. The vast majority of people I have come across in my tutoring have never picked up the rules of the road since they got their lessons 20 or 30 years ago, or even more. Everybody has to do an initial theory test and get a certain score. I believe that most motorists and motorcyclists never pick up the book again. They do not even realise that the book changes every few years when new road traffic Acts are passed. I find it difficult to believe that any cyclists I have come across have ever read the section in the rules of the road that pertains to cyclists. Before enforcement, we have to start by ensuring that people know the rules of the road, know where they have to comply and know what they should and should not do. It is all outlined in the booklets.

The opportunity comes at licence renewal time to put something there to show that people have done some sort of refresher reading course. It is something to consider in the overall context. Before you enforce, you have to ask whether people know the rules in the first instance.

Scramblers have been in the media in recent months, and we have been trying to raise this issue for a number of years. We have seen the tragic death of Grace Lynch. One of the ideas that we would like to see is that scramblers be registered so they can be traced back to the individual driver. What is the witnesses’ perspective on that?

My comment on that would be very strong. I sat on a joint policing committee, JPC. Ten years ago, I put forward a suggestion as to how that could be dealt with. It is very simple. A number of years ago, the State decided that it wanted to register all tractors in the country, and it discovered that nearly 6,000 tractors were undocumented. Forget about the taxation classification - that is irrelevant. Every vehicle has a vehicle identification number, VIN, that is registered to the purchaser. The issue is not just scramblers, but also stolen bikes, off-road bikes and so on. If gardaí seize a bike from a kid, the parents can go down and get the bike back, and the gardaí are obliged to give it back to them.

Under the Road Traffic Act, it is a mechanically propelled vehicle and, therefore, there is no black or white about it. It does not need the Director of Public Prosecutions or the Attorney General to be involved. It is a mechanically propelled vehicle, and they all have a VIN. If every one of them is registered, it solves three issues. First, we know who the owner is. Second, we are able to track them. Third, the biggest number of stolen vehicles on two wheels are in the off-road section and the racing industry because they are not registered. Leaving the taxation class to one side, you define it and you register the vehicle. That is all. It does not take 50 people.

I totally agree.

To be fair, I gave all of this information to a TD a long time ago, and he wrote a White Paper, but it did not go very far. If they are all registered, in order to buy one, you must be over a certain age. It ties down who owns it, where it has been and where it is going.

In terms of what happened, I see it every day of the week. I drive a marked bike that is often mistaken for a Garda bike. I often get guys trying to give me the Billy, and trying to mess around because they think it is a garda. I see it on a regular basis. They are all bikes that have been stolen or bought. They are the little scooters, the e-scooters and all of that type of stuff. The definition of the word “scrambler” is wrong. That is very easily solved by just registering them. That is all.

I welcome the witnesses. In response to Mr. Noonan, I am delighted to hear someone outside the Dáil speak about the need for registration of any vehicle with an engine that is on the road. I think that is just the bare minimum and deals with a lot of the things he has described. It would also deal with the use of these vehicles for nefarious purposes, especially drug running, which we have seen in areas around the place.

I thank the witnesses for educating me on the BikeSafe programme. I was not aware of that, or aware that it was voluntary. I am assuming that one of the recommendations the witnesses would bring to this committee is that we look at making that mandatory for the roads policing section of An Garda Síochána.

I want to look at the driving test. I was struck by some of the things the witnesses said at the start about the driving test and how people were not brought out on the motorway when they were being taught to drive. This question goes to each of the witnesses. How would they amend the driving test to build those skills? I am a cyclist, and I have read the rules of the road pertaining to the rules around cyclists and what we should do. I see the rules being violated by all road users, not just cyclists. How would the witnesses amend the driving test to improve driver behaviour?

I suggest that when people pass the driving test, they have to drive for one year, and after that, they would then have to take a course of some sort for motorway driving. They would then get certified to be allowed to drive on the motorway. That is one suggestion.

What Mr. Ward said is correct. I take the view that if someone is learning to drive, they should learn to drive on the motorway and on ordinary roads as well. It is frightening to see someone sitting at 60 km/h in the outside lane, not understanding that it is the overtaking lane, with an N-plate or a restricted plate on the vehicle. The person has passed the test, but is just sitting there. They are like rabbits caught in the headlamps.

I have spent a lot of time on motorways and do quite a lot of mileage on them. It is frightening. The people I find most competent on the roads are truck drivers because they are professionals. Most of the bus companies are fairly okay. Cars are a nightmare. I did not realise until a garda told me that it is not illegal to wear headphones in a car, so people are deaf because they are listening to music and all types of stuff. While on the bike one morning, I did a little test. In 40 minutes, I had three near-incidents. One person was watching a video on a laptop, another was having breakfast and shaving, another was doing make-up and doing the hair, and another had earphones on and was reading a newspaper on a laptop. That was in less than 40 minutes in rush-hour traffic. When someone gets into a car, the doors are closed, the outside world is gone, and they forget about everything. When they switch lanes, they just switch. They do not care who is coming up behind.

The biggest issue with bikes is visibility. If we look at the current police bike, the BMW RT, it is quite a wide bike, and very bright and well-marked up. They still cannot be seen and they get hit, so what hope does a small vehicle have in that regard? For me, it is criminal that somebody has been taught to drive, but they are not taught how to drive on a motorway and are not allowed to go on the motorway while they are being taught.

Another point is that they are not taught awareness. A lot of the narrative is around high visibility and so on, and I agree with being seen, but there is another side to that, which is that we need to teach people to be aware of their surroundings. That is the piece we do not seem to be putting the same amount of emphasis on. If someone cycles on the road, they have done their best to be seen, and there is then a responsibility on other road users to proactively be aware of what is around them. It is a well-made point.

I did my driving test way back, and it was a joke by today's standards.

There are some issues, such as wet roads. Motorcyclists must treat wet roads with respect. Most skids happen on wet roads.

Another issue is positioning on a road, which should be incorporated to a greater extent in the driving test. There are three positions on the road, namely, the centre, left of centre and right of centre. At any given time, a motorcycle, unlike a car, will have to be in one of those positions. Emphasis should be put on that.

Filtering is another issue. I think it is dangerous and I do not do it any more. The white line can affect the handling of a bike if you are riding along it. These are a few areas the driving test should place a greater onus on.

The initial test is probably all right, with the exception of the motorway issue that Mr. Noonan and Mr. Ward spoke about. My main issue is that one you do the driving test, you are away forever. Familiarity breeds contempt, unfortunately. We are all human. We all let things slip and slide and there is no requirement to anything more, as there with continuing professional development. A basic first aid course has to be redone every three years, etc. There all sorts of things one can qualify in. Yet people can get a driving licence for life without any further check on competency or anything else. That is the change I would like to see.

Should there be a regular check, with people having to refresh after ten years?

Yes, at the time of renewal, people should have to prove they have done X number of hours with a registered driving instructor on motorways and various other aspects of driving. I am a member of IART and to maintain my standard within IART I do a test every three years. It keeps me sharp and if it can keep me sharp, it can keep anybody a lot sharper than they are.

I imagine the RSA would have something to say about that.

To move to HGV drivers, Mr. Noonan mentioned that HGV drivers are among the most expert drivers he sees on the road. I tend to agree they are because they are driving all of the time. One of the things we explored with the cyclist and pedestrian groups last week was HGV bans being flouted in built-up suburban areas, with HGVs driving on roads from which they are banned. That is obviously an issue for cyclists, especially younger cyclists, and younger pedestrians. These are children we are trying to teach how to walk and cycle to school. How does that issue impact on motorcyclists? Is that a fear the witnesses have? I accept it would not be a fear on motorways, but what about residential areas where there is a lower speed limit and HGVs should not be in the first place? I mean no disrespect.

I used to sit on a council committee a long time ago, so I am aware of that issue. Sometimes, rigid or arctic trucks have to go into residential areas because they are either delivering or dropping off stuff. I do not know whether there is a large number of them flouting the rules. Sometimes the drivers get lost, ironically. They might be foreign, for example. I genuinely have never had a concern about a truck. I will not go through a junction with green lights if I have the right of way. I slow down because I know there will be a cyclist coming out on the other side who will break the light - end of story. I was amazed at a conference last year at which Swedish police officers, who were speaking about their experience, having just arrived in Ireland, noted how scant attention was paid to the law, especially when it came to people breaking the law. That was the opening line from the Swedish police when talking about road safety. When they arrived in Ireland, they were amazed at how often the law was flouted. My biggest fear, every day of the week when I am out and about on my motorcycle and going through a light, is what is going to come through a red light from the other side. I know it will not be a truck or a bus. That is the difficulty I see from a practical point of view.

Would anyone else like to comment?

We can see that truck drivers and bus drivers are professionally trained. I do not have a problem with them. I would be wary of a truck on the road but that is up to the individual.

I welcome the witnesses. It is great to hear their voices. I would say they do not often get an opportunity to have their voices heard. I express condolences to them on their members and, possibly, friends who have passed away as a result of collisions and to all the families affected by that. The fact that the numbers of deaths and serious accidents are rising is a massive problem. It is great the witnesses are here as it allows us to discuss how we can change this. I will ask about the witnesses' correspondence with the RSA. Is the RSA giving them a voice? Is the RSA listening to their expert opinions? No, it is not.

We have made many attempts to contact the RSA and have received no response whatsoever.

Nothing at all?

Absolutely nothing.

There was a programme on RTÉ one morning. RTÉ interviewed me previously and had a piece from me lined up. This particular matter came up and of course the journalist put it to the RSA, saying they would play a clip from Michael Noonan. The clip was played and the RSA was on to me that afternoon. That was three or four years ago. There is no engagement.

I will go further. I attend the RSA's annual briefings. The Irish Motorcycle Association gets an invite to them but cannot participate. There would normally be four or five speakers lined up. I had come back from a meeting in Brussels on the Sunday. I was at the RSA meeting on the Tuesday and had a new report with up-to-date figures for the previous year up to December. I raise this matter because one of the speakers, from Holland, was a contributor to the FEMA report and she had not read the final report. What she said at the RSA meeting contradicted her technical findings in the report.

The Irish Motorcycle Association has no opportunity to comment.

I was able to say that. It did not go down very well. From a practical point of view, for me it is very simple. The issue is that the RSA says it can only deal with closed accident reports and cannot deal with open ones, which is why its figures are not correct. The accident rate is 30% or 40% higher than the one that is publicised because the hospitals are now starting to report to the Central Statistics Office any injuries that come into them that which are accident-related. Those are all being included. We will find a rise in the numbers of accidents over the next two years simply because the hospitals are now voluntarily reporting this information to a body that is collecting it, and it is then being sent to the CSO. When I questioned the RSA about its figures it stated it gets its figures from Europe, but the figures supplied by the CSO to Europe are given back to us.

The RSA's guiding principles state it looks at the hierarchy of vulnerable users.

To take it from the point of view of wearing a biker's hat, there is nobody within the RSA who would have any experience. In fact, there would be an element of it being anti-bike because of some of the unfortunate people involved with it. One of the people involved said to me their brother had a very back accident but is still riding a bike, and this person hated him. It does not make any difference whether one likes bikes or hates them. A group of plumbers talking about plumbing issues will know what they are talking about. We have here a group of people advising on bikes and none of them ride a bike, have any concept of riding a bike or know what is involved. One of the issues that came up at one of the meetings is road engineering and design. One of the reasons there are now so many potholes and the roads are so bad is they are not being installed as per the regulations. That is why the cycle lanes, unfortunately, results in condensing traffic, which causes more and more damage to roads because the vehicles are stuck in one lanes. EVs are much heavier vehicles and are breaking up the tar. The minute there is a bit of rain it will open up a pothole. The problem goes down to engineering.

It is also that the Irish Motorcycle Association does not have any input.

The question is how we can have an input into road safety if there is no engagement. As Mr. Ward quite rightly said - the lads are sharp enough on their own end in trying to look after our interests - we want to engage simply to be able to have an input and to educate. I can bring back a report the European Parliament can decide on. How come we can go to Brussels and speak to European legislators, give them an idea and they bring it in as part of the regulations? There are new regulations coming this July that we have had a huge input in to.

When Mr. Noonan says he is blue-----

That would be an emergency.

Does the Garda use Mr. Noonan? Does he contact the Garda?

No, I do something else. I am trained to that level.

There is no recognition of that, is there?

That is irrelevant in one way.

That has nothing to do with it.

The issue for me is very simple. Mr. Ward and the lads know what they are talking about. People like that are the type of people who should form an input. If you sit on an SPC, or anything like that, you can have an input.

I can see the witnesses' level of skill on motorbikes is second to none, and they have to be, because they are always having to watch their back. They should not always have to be like that. When they said they would be safer around buses and truck drivers, and it came up about how, in the UK, they are able to use bus lanes, how has that gone down? If they want to bring that forward as a suggestion, who does that go to?

That would be the Department of Transport.

We hope that today's meeting might help.

Has that been flagged with anyone?

Wearing another hat, I am in discussions with the Department of Transport about something like that and I do not want to conflict that. That is a bigger discussion, which will be a much harder one to follow through with.

The thing about the bus lanes, if you go on the BikeSafe course, as I did a couple of years ago to see what they were doing, the gardaí tell people to use bus lanes. It is an Irish solution to an Irish problem, which is crazy because gardaí straight out of Templemore, when they see three motorbikes coming down the road, will not allow the use of bus lanes. There is no consistency in terms of what we are allowed to do. Bus lanes are the safest place for motorcyclists. Obviously if a motorcyclist is driving at an horrendous speed or acting the hooligan on a bus lane then that is a different issue. However, if a motorcyclist is behaving and nipping up slowly, being aware of what is likely to happen such as someone can turn in on you, once a motorcyclist is aware of all that, then a bus lane is the safest place to be.

The point I wanted to make earlier when I flagged was that I have been told quietly that the RSA will not talk to us because we are a voluntary body and they do not want to upset the ADIs who are professionally earning a living from motorcycle training.

It is great to hear Mr. Ward say that. We will have an opportunity to raise questions with the RSA as its representatives will come in here in the next couple of weeks. We have a lot of questions that must be asked from the witnesses and other representatives groups.

Schools often offer training for the driver theory test as part of transition year. Have the groups present had any input in those educational programmes?

No.

Has that ever come up?

It has never come up but it would be a very good idea.

It is about awareness, and it could be the same for cycling.

It would be a good move to give young guys in secondary school a broad insight into motorcycling and let them know what it is about.

And awareness.

It would be great if some of them were to go on to be motorcyclists as it is one of the great joys in life. Regarding what the Senator said about trucks and buses, I would not feel safe around them. I might have been misunderstood there. I would be wary of them but the drivers who are in them know what they are doing.

Yes, I have no doubt about that. Thank you.

I thank the witnesses for their time today. It is a very important discussion, particularly given the increase in fatalities last year. I hear loud and clear their points on the deficits in driver training and education. For example, people may get their driving licence at 17 or 18 years old and they are never checked or tested again for their competency on the road. Mr. Noonan spoke quite a lot about the issues with the RSA and the lack of contact between the witnesses' organisations and the RSA. I would like to bring Mr. Ward, Mr. McGrath and Mr. Cronin in on that and to hear their views on the RSA. Is it doing as much as it can to promote motorcyclist safety? What would they like to see the RSA do to promote safety?

How long has the Deputy got?

Ideally, what has to be done with motorcyclist safety also has to be done in relation to all road users because they all suffer from the same thing, which is apathy and ignorance of the rules and regulations. If the RSA came to me and asked what would I do tomorrow, I would say make a video of somebody doing all of the wrong things on a motorbike and then show them the right way, not just criticise the wrong way but show people the correct way. Break it down into all sorts of individual things that people are doing wrong to make it better for motorists, motorcyclists, cyclists and right across the board. It should be a big safety campaign on television and radio to wake people up. I am sure that there are those who could put all of this together. Get it into people's minds. Change their mindset; then you will get results.

Motorcyclists are not really seen on the road by drivers. We are a nuisance to most people; that seems to be attitude. We need some sort of education. I read an article recently about a guy who, with his young kids in the car as they are going along, gives them the game of spot the motorcyclist. How many motorbikes can you count on the journey? That makes them aware of motorcyclists on the road so that, when they become drivers themselves, that is inbuilt into their own thinking while they are on the road. I thought something like that is a very good idea. It is a game that keeps the kids amused while they are in the car on any journey, be it long or short, counting how many motorbikes they see. When you look at the profile of a motorbike, it is that width with a rider and all on it. Where a car is coming out from a side junction and a motorcyclist is coming along the main road, the pillar of the car alone could hide the motorcyclist, and then the car drives out - bang. That sort of education would be of great help.

There is a very good photograph of a policeman standing with a pen to show how your view can be blocked out. You know how your eyes work; you do not see things. It takes a multiple of photographs, so in a split second your brain will not process that it took a photograph when there is no bike there. Sometimes people do not see because physically they have not picked it up.

I think it is called circadian.

The nicest garda to deal with is the motorcycle garda because they suffer the same thing that we suffer with. They are very understanding and they are quite quick at giving somebody a lecture and giving a first warning because they realise, if they lecture somebody really hard, it might be better than fining them because it will register with them a little bit more. I have found over the years, and I know a good few gardaí in the traffic division, that they are in it all the time - when they go in, they stay in it - they are educated, they understand and they know. They are probably some of the nicest people I know in the Garda from a general point of view. The gardaí who provide the BikeSafe programme do so voluntarily. They come in on their own time to do it. That is their type of passion, which is very good to see and very commendable from a general point of view, but it is difficult. I have often seen Garda vehicles being in collisions where somebody pulled out in front of them even though they had blue lights flashing. If you cannot see something like that, what hope does anybody have from a general point of view?

The witnesses have spoken a lot about the RSA and engagement with them. Has there been engagement, specifically on road safety legislation and things like that, with the Department of Transport with the organisations present?

No. We do not. I am involved in something through another organisation, which is a separate matter altogether. We do not engage with anybody in Ireland. We have always tried to engage with the Road Safety Authority because that is who the Department deals with. Effectively speaking, and maybe what Mr. Ward said early may be relevant - I never thought of something like that - the bottom line is that the RSA will deal with the police, firefighters, ambulance, etc. It will not deal with anybody else at all. I did speak to Donna Price, who set up the Irish Road Victims Association. It took her about ten years to get involved. She had to fight like hell. I asked her how she got there in the end and she told me that you have to keep banging down the door and annoying the hell out of them in that regard. Eventually, in due course, it did happen but it is a difficult one. Again, if it is responsible for road safety, it is also responsible for licensing. It is actually responsible for too much because, looking at it from the outside, I just see an organisation with a budget and, therefore, it must do X, Y and Z and it will come out with continuous campaigns which are of the negative. What Mr. Cronin said earlier is a very good idea, that you show the negative side and you show how you correct it in that regard.

That is what you call an educational process. Sometimes people criticise farmers for letting their kids drive tractors. A kid could be put into a tractor worth 150 grand. The farmer does not do that lightly unless the kid is sharp and aware. I learned to drive when I was eight years old. That is when I started driving. I was put into a very big vehicle and told exactly how dangerous it was. I have never forgotten that to this day. I am always conscious of what I am driving in, what is around me and what I am capable of doing, depending on the tonnage I am operating. If I can drive across Europe in 16 or 17 hours and cover over 1,000 miles, taking one or two breaks, and do it incident free on very fast roads through Germany and everything where there are no speed limits, there is a lot of food for thought there.

You can only improve something by educating people and can only educate somebody if you are engaged with them. If they do not engage with you, how do you educate anybody? I find it rich that somebody in this country will give a speech or talk on road safety having contributed and met me a week earlier to discuss the report I had published, yet there is a completely different angle put on it. There needs to be a better way of looking at it, from a general point of view, and there needs to be engagement with the likes of IART, who I have a lot of time for because I know what the lads do. The fact it is done voluntarily is great. It is improving road safety and that is what is required. Without engagement, we will not go anywhere. I know the number of accidents has risen but so has the population and the car fleet. There were 726 people killed in 1967 on Irish roads when the car fleet was very small. Everything is relative, from a general point of view. Engagement and education are the two critical things to moving anything forward. Without them, it is a sinking ship.

I thank the witnesses for coming in and giving this issue the focus it needs. It was shocking to hear them describe, and it was in the briefing we got, the 30 motorcyclists who died in 2025, almost double the 17 of the year before. That is such a big jump. Is there anything the witnesses have seen or heard from their members that could explain such a massive jump in one year? That would be good for us to understand.

Without going into each of the accidents, looking at the information around each of them tells a story. There was an incident involving four bikes in the west. A foreign driver hit four lads, knocked them off and killed one, but the headlines said something different. We have to look forensically at what caused each accident. That paints a picture. It is unfortunate there has been a large increase but there are many pedestrians killed as well. There are more pedestrians killed than there are motorcyclists and they are not driving at high speed. FEMA produced a report. The EU looked at the logistics around what caused accidents and went into great detail. That takes a lot of analysis and time. There are always multiple factors thrown into it.

All the witnesses spoke of their lack of engagement with the Road Safety Authority. When I think of the steps taken in this country on road safety, I remember some of the RSA ads. They were so shocking and have always had an impact on me. Has the RSA ever - I am not talking about just now - done something meaningful in the area of motorcyclist safety that the witnesses would identify as a good thing?

Very little.

I can only remember one RSA film. It is where a car flips over, goes into a garden and kills a child. That was through use of a phone. That is the only one I can bring to mind.

That was the one I was thinking of. That one sticks with me. The failure to engage that the witnesses have outlined today is concerning. Mr. Ward made the point that the RSA did not want to talk to the voluntary groups-----

That is anecdotal, really. That is what I have been told.

Sorry, it was said anecdotally. I understand that. Is the RSA talking to anybody about motorcyclist safety specifically?

No.

So that whole area where we saw 30 people die last year is, in the witnesses' opinion, not really featuring in what the RSA is contemplating.

At our last quarterly meeting in Brussels, one or two of our lads met some of the legislators in the EU Parliament because of amendments that were coming in regarding end-of-like vehicles and all that type of stuff. One of the lads was a bit shocked. He said he met the representative from the Road Safety Authority and photographs were taken but he has told he was not allowed to use the photographs of the person he was talking to. I asked what his name was. I do not have a clue who he is. I cannot find him in this country. I find it incredible there was somebody representing the RSA in Europe who does not appear to exist here - no engagement whatsoever. I can meet European legislators in Brussels and sit down and talk to them and we can have an input into various new licences, the PTI and end-of-life vehicles. Ireland has had an input in all of that along with our European colleagues, yet we cannot sit down with the RSA and talk about road safety.

For our report, this is something we need to focus on. I will move on to the area of infrastructure. I am anecdotally aware of a change on motorways from the metal wire boundary in the middle to a concrete bar. I understand that was brought in because of the damage the wire mesh was doing to motorcyclists in collisions. Are there other infrastructure measures? The state of the road itself has been mentioned; that is obviously key. Are there other infrastructure changes that would make our roads safer for members of the witnesses' organisations?

Sticking to the manual for building, for argument's sake, regarding service ducts, and you will see it in respect of bicycles. They all collapse around them because they do not use supporting rings. They are supposed to use them. These are a solid concrete fitting that goes around the drain. The reason drains collapse is the tar around them is soft and there are heavy vehicles and buses and all that.

Bus lanes are being designed at the moment. I am thinking of one or two where cycle lanes have come in, but the roads are so narrow now the buses cannot pass each other. They have to stop and wait. Where I live, when they put in the new things, they did not make the full allowance for the width of a bus. They underestimated it.

Stick with the proper manual for building a road. Short-changing it is not the way to do it. That only increases the national spend on repairing infrastructure. If you are on a bicycle, you do not have not suspension or shock absorbers, so you will feel a pothole. If you are on a motorbike, you might spot it at the last moment and avoid it. That is why bikes often weave. They have spotted something the car driver will not see.

On infrastructure in general, massive changes are going on and that is creating a whole load of problems. They built the motorways years ago. They would go back and amend some of them. The turn-off for the M50 from the N7 is a nightmare. They say there are on average three incidents per day on the M50. That is completely incorrect. I do not know who is reporting that. If I am on duty on a bike, I see a lot more than that in half an hour.

All the witnesses raised the importance of training in terms of improving safety. What are the barriers to the uptake of training? Is it lack of knowledge of its availability? Is it reluctance and people thinking they can get on without it? How can we get more current and aspiring motorcyclists to take up the training that exists?

Our group, IART, mainly deals with the older bike rider because they have the bigger bikes and they have more interest in prolonging their own lifespan.

As Mr. Noonan was saying, the problem is with the delay in testing people. Coming back to what we said earlier on, the RoSPA test has to be redone every three years. That is a bit severe for the ordinary motorcyclist. I would like to see something coming in whereby, as Mr. Cronin suggested, a person would have to redo a test of some sort on the renewal of their licence. It could be a ten-year span, or even a 15-year span would be fine, but it would get the motorcyclist thinking a bit more.

It is not only that, though. It is drivers as well. Mr. Noonan gave a statistic earlier that, in motorcycle accidents or collisions, the majority were caused by the motorist, not the motorcyclist. There seems to be an issue there that requires additional training. If people had to worry about a test coming up in three, four or five years' time, they might think somewhat differently.

People are waiting up to a year or a year and a half to get their tests. The backlog is a complete nightmare and there are a load of issues around that set-up as well, which delays getting people out onto the road under proper conditions. That applies to cars and everything else. It has an awful effect.

We would like to see training on motorways included as part of the initial training. Earlier, I said a year, but that is going with our existing system. If we were going to change it, though, maybe it should be included from day 1. I have read somewhere, and I do not know if it is factual or not, that a learner driver can be taken on a motorway, provided they are in a driving school vehicle with an approved driving instructor. I do not know if that is correct or not. Does anyone here know?

I do not think anyone-----

It was news to me; I only read it the other day when I was figuring out what we were supposed to be doing today.

There are some very tough things in the legislation. Even gardaí when they are being trained under blue lights cannot drive the way they should be driving. In the UK, a person being trained by the police will be taken to over 100 mph, with the full road taken over for high-speed pursuit driving. The Garda does not do that here because it is not allowed to. It is fundamental that even gardaí are not taught blue-light training. I know a person who has been a garda for 20 years and he still has not been allowed to drive a car. How can someone enforce the law if they cannot physically drive a vehicle themselves?

I thank the witnesses for their answers.

I thank the witnesses for their attendance today. It is really interesting to hear their perspectives. How many registered motorcycles are on Irish roads?

There are 33,000.

I just want to come back to the RSA. I am conscious that representatives from the RSA are not here to speak for themselves. I have no doubt that they are watching. There was no consultation with the three representative bodies here today. They are not part of any stakeholder consultation. I know there are different stakeholder groups that link in to the various road safety strategies, the current strategy being from 2021 to 2030. Is there no engagement?

No. We would get an invitation to the RSA's annual thing, which is held in Croke Park or Farmleigh.

A conference, which is just held once a year. No different than me as a Member of the Oireachtas getting an invitation, but there is no only meaningful stakeholder engagement.

Correct, that is the only thing.

I attended an event in Leinster House last week where the RSA gave a presentation on its various educational programmes. I know it is launching an awareness campaign for the benefit of motorcyclists, having regard to the crisis. I come back to the 30 lives lost last year. We think of those families, not to mention how many have suffered serious injuries as well. In the context of developing that awareness campaign for motorcyclists, there has been no consultation or engagement. The RSA will be coming before the committee in a few weeks' time and we will raise these issues.

I think someone mentioned a figure of 80% as regards the majority of accidents, although not all. Somebody mentioned that there may have been information provided to them from insurance companies.

We spoke to the underwriters.

Did they provide anything in writing? It would be really good if that could be shared with the committee. Is it the witnesses' evidence today that, in more than 80% of cases, driver behaviour is the main cause? I take the point that was made about 41 pedestrians being killed on Irish roads last year and that driver behaviour was the number one cause of that and that car driver behaviour was the number one cause of motorcycle fatalities and serious injuries.

The Garda presented figures in Croke Park two years ago, which went up on its website. I tried to get them afterwards. For example, speed came up as number seven. Failure to have due care and attention-----

The problem we have in this country is that until the case is formally closed, we do not get any information. Can that often be up to five years? For example, we will not have any concrete analysis of those 30 fatalities until-----

We might be waiting for another five years.

What about in other countries?

Fairly sharply. Within the year. The EU is very hot on providing information and it is very up front. Motorcycle sales growth is 6% annually in this country. Due to traffic and all of that, a lot of people are going back to motorcycles, especially the smaller scooters and smaller bikes for transport.

I am very interested in the engagement the witnesses have at a European level and if there are other member states should Ireland should look to in terms of what they are doing from the perspectives of policy and legislation. Are there any particular examples? Bear in mind that, at the end of these engagements, the committee will produce a report. We are not interested in broad commentary. We want to produce a report with actions in the short to medium term. What recommendations would the witnesses give to this committee? Mr. Noonan first.

To be fair, all of the European countries are very good in terms of what they are doing. They all engage. All of the international bodies start dealing with them. For example, Swiss Moto in Switzerland and the group in Sweden are very good. There is very good engagement and there is very good feedback from them. They deal with their national representatives and then we feed all that back into the Federation of European Motorcyclists' Associations, FEMA, in Brussels. Our major meeting is on this weekend, from Friday until Sunday. As we have affiliated with the federation of international motorsports, which regulates all that type of stuff, we now have an even quicker hotline straight into Brussels. We can organise meetings about issues through our office with legislators fairly quickly and they are good at taking things on board. I could not say that France is better or Germany is better, though. Every country is different and every body has different ways of looking at things.

What one change would Mr. Noonan like to see in the next 12 months?

In this country?

Yes.

Engagement, because without that, this is not going to go anywhere. The Irish have a very black sense of humour at times. Often, the RSA will look for information via polls, but because of that black humour-----

When Mr. Noonan says "engagement", does he mean with the RSA?

Yes, as stakeholders.

We invited the witnesses to this committee.

Which was very welcome.

When was the last time any of the witnesses, as representatives of their organisations, were before an Oireachtas committee?

Never.

This is the first time.

I hope the witnesses see that as a positive-----

Very positive.

-----and our motivation is very clear. It is based on the crisis that currently exists. I take the point about enforcement. For me, what shapes driver behaviour more than anything else is enforcement. In short, enforcement is the number one priority when it comes to shaping driver behaviour.

In terms of changes and recommendations that this committee may take on board, does Mr. Ward have any thoughts?

I would like to see more visibility of gardaí on the roads. If the Cathaoirleach walked through the yard in Dublin Castle, he would see a line of 20-odd Garda motorcycles, but there will not be a half dozen riders there to ride them. Most of the work they appear to do from the castle yard is escort duty. That is not what they are there for.

From the perspective of motorcyclists, is it the garda on the motorcycle or the one in the car who is more important?

From a motorcyclist's point of view, I would like to see the bikes but they are not allowed to patrol motorways, I believe.

The Garda fleet has been reduced. Wearing another hat, I used to deal with the head of maintenance in the Garda. He was interested to see how our fleet was running because we were doing a higher mileage. The average mileage of a Garda traffic bike is 15,000 km to 20,000 km per year.

My time is limited, so I just want to give Mr. McGrath and maybe Mr Cronin an opportunity to respond.

The Garda fleet is not being used, and the bike section was even reduced three years ago by 227 units.

I have seen some of the data in responses to my parliamentary questions. I call Mr. McGrath, who may contribute briefly.

I would like to see BikeSafe reintroduced. I did it with the Garda. Gardaí take you out for an hour through the city and on three different types of roads, including the motorway, and then they give you a breakdown on how you performed. You just ride and they travel behind you, and then they tell you how you did. When I came back to biking, I had developed a few bad habits and found it very beneficial. I would like to see BikeSafe introduced.

The other thing I would like to see introduced is a breakdown of the accidents. It would be good to see in the statistics who was at fault. We know how many motorcyclists have been killed. What type of bikes were they? Many bikes are being used for deliveries now and, my God, they shift in and out through traffic. How they survive I do not know. Are they being classed as motorcyclists? I would like to see a breakdown.

Mr. Cronin may contribute briefly. I will give Mr. McGrath a chance to contribute again later.

The big thing I would like to see is post-test motorway training for motorcyclists while they are still in learning mode, or while under their N plate.

I drive a car, and every four years that car is subject to an NCT. I wish to ask about the roadworthiness of motorcycles. Am I right in saying motorcyclists are not subject to a biennial inspection or one every four or six years?

There is new legislation coming out. I am working on this at the moment. The inspection is called the periodical technical inspection, PTI. Ireland has had a derogation for a number of years for a couple of reasons. The Garda is fully behind us on this as well. There is no issue. Even the RSA agrees. Regarding accidents and bikes, maintenance has never been an issue. Bikes are very expensive and many riders take a lot of pride in them, and derive a lot of joy from them.

The European directive was going to be enforced but it has just been amended and PTI inspections will not be legally required. They will not be coming into this country for a number of reasons. As the number of bikes is so small, the cost of the equipment is an issue. All that can be done is a visual inspection, including of the tyres. They cannot test-----

Is the evidence of all the witnesses that the roadworthiness of the bikes is not an issue?

It is not.

I will let in Senator Mark Duffy and then return to Deputies Donnelly and Moynihan.

I thank the witnesses for being here. I am grateful that the committee is having this discussion today because it is worthwhile and important. It is important that we hear from the coalface about what is such a crisis in road safety.

Most of my questions were answered while I was listening to the discussion earlier. The main takeaway today is that more engagement is needed with the relevant agencies and authorities, particularly the RSA. I am sure the Chair will take that away and write to the RSA to encourage more engagement.

Everyone has their own responsibility, and autonomy as well. Improved awareness of road safety, as evident today, is a good start, but general public awareness of road safety, particularly among motorcyclists, would be helpful. Have the witnesses seen examples of good awareness campaigns in other countries? What is the most effective way to improve motorist awareness that could be introduced in Ireland, or reintroduced if it was stronger in the past?

We have got to see more policing. If you go to other countries, you see plenty of police out and about. I have travelled around the country quite a bit over the years and have noted that it is rare to see a motorcycle garda. I was caught once for speeding in 60 years of riding. Work that out.

Does anyone else have any thoughts on that?

The Think Bike campaign was quite good. We ran it years ago. It is a matter of educating kids on watching out and being observant. When I am on a bike, there are things I will not do. I will not wear earphones or listen to music because my focus is on the road. On one or two occasions, I was given a tug by a cop and asked whether I knew what speed I was doing. I said “No” and was told I was doing a little over the limit. I was watching the road; I do not look at the clock. My primary focus is on what is ahead of me and what is coming out of the corners. At every junction, there is a sniper on both sides. I have to be that alert all the time. I still enjoy going out on a motorcycle, even though you have to be in a state of constant readiness. A training inspector with the Garda said to me one day that his biggest fear after doing a major escorting job – for argument’s sake, a bicycle event like the Tour de France – is going back to his digs afterwards. At that point, a garda is turned off and relaxing. That is when incidents happen. I am alert all the time but the human body and mind are such that people are closed off. They may be listening to music or the radio and be preoccupied. If so, they are not focusing on the road. They might just indicate and swing right without focusing. People think that putting on the indicator gives them the right to do whatever they want - pull out in front of a vehicle and all this type of lark.

This committee should also examine the accident rate for emergency vehicles, such as ambulances and fire brigade vehicles. It is very low, although the drivers are operating in extreme conditions. A fire engine is a very heavy vehicle. How come the drivers do not have any problems? It is because they are alert and trained. I am speaking generally. Training and awareness are extremely important, as is being alert.

There are Sunday riders. I said earlier that I do roughly 100,000 miles per year on bikes. That is a lot of mileage and I am used to it. Rain, snow and ice never bother me. I have driven on snow and ice. I often get caught out on ice in the midlands in winter, but I still manage to get back to Dublin. Why? It is because I drive according to the conditions and am aware that I might fall. There is very little tyre holding up a bike, which could weigh 400 kg or 500 kg. A car has 48 in. of rubber holding it to the ground. It is only the rubber that holds you to the ground. There is quite a lot of skill involved in driving a bike. Bikers take a lot of pride in their vehicles and look after them. They are very expensive. Motorcyclists get hammered by the insurance companies when they have an accident. That is why we went to the underwriters for data. In 18% of all the accidents reported involving bikes, the bike was at fault. Eighty-two percent of accidents reported involving bikes were not the motorcyclists’ fault whatsoever. Driver awareness, alertness, education and engagement are the four things required.

I thank the witnesses.

Why do people ride motorbikes? Apart from those who have to use them for commuting, there are those who go out on them for enjoyment. When you are out on your bike, you have no headspace for anything other than getting from A to B. You can leave all your worries and troubles behind. You are fully concentrating on the road and your surroundings, including the traffic around you, because your primary plan for the day is to come home in one piece. The attraction for me and many others is getting out and forgetting about everything else. All your worries are gone and you are out in the fresh air. Getting home safely is the aim. That is the attraction for those who ride for enjoyment rather than those who have to commute because, unfortunately, our public transport is not up to scratch at the moment.

I know exactly what Mr. Ward is talking about. I collect vintage cars. To get away from the bubble that is Leinster House and politics, there is nothing I like more than driving my Triumph TR6, for example, with the hood off.

I will now let Deputy Donnelly contribute again.

A couple of points were raised in the discussion. At the very beginning, Mr. Ward said speed was not the main issue.

I am very interested in that because what we see from the RSA and all the safety campaigns is that "speed kills".

It does not.

That is very interesting one.

Second, do we have statistics on the number of people who are injured on bikes? I am bringing it back to a friend of mine who was going around a roundabout in Tyrrelstown. A car came out of nowhere and absolutely ploughed him out of it. He was on his way to work on a bike. He was pretty much destroyed; his legs, hips and arms were very badly injured. Do we have statistics for how many people are injured on bikes?

That is why the hospitals have announced their own initiative. They saw a spike in things. They are required to supply their information under the hospital set-up.

The number of brain injuries in young children who are injured on scooters has gone through the roof. We only got that information because the hospitals sent out a red alert saying that we need to do something about these scooters because children's brains are being badly damaged by them. I presume it is a similar statistic-----

A scooter overtook me one day on Dame Street when I was on a bike. I wanted to find out what speed he was doing, so I accelerated to catch up with him. I got up to 57 km/h.

I tracked one myself.

On their capacity, because they are electric, they have instant torque. They have no shocks or brakes.

And they are illegal.

They are illegal, end of story. That is the bottom line. I brought this up at a joint policing committee, JPC. They changed the law in the UK to enable the Metropolitan Police to take these lads down. They indemnified the members of the police force so they could take them down. They started ramming them to take them down. That was to do with illegal crime and all of that type of lark. It has been very successful and it has started to drop off from a practical point of view.

I know the Garda is told not to engage and I understand the reason. The parks are covered by by-laws, etc., so it is not as simple as it looks. If a garda is afraid to do his job on the basis that he may lose his job, it is a difficult situation.

It is something we have been looking at for a long time. I know a number of people in the Garda and they have reported this. For people's information, if you go into the Garda as a trainee and you have a full licence, it is only recently - in the past two or three intakes - that you get a driving test to be able to drive a Garda car even though you have a full licence. That is basically to drive a Garda car without putting on the blue lights. It takes up to two years to be able to switch on the blue lights. There has been no advanced driving training for a number of years. That is how poorly equipped I believe the gardaí are. I accept it is even worse for the gardaí who are on motorbikes. They would be trained, as far as I know. I know a couple of people who have been on them and they are enthusiasts. People who go into the Garda and the ambulance service to drive on the bikes are enthusiasts. They love their bikes and they love being able to drive them. However, I think there is a huge problem among senior gardaí in regard to advanced technology and training. We are way behind compared to other police forces. I have investigated this, particularly in relation to the scrambler issue. It is really poor, in my opinion. We do not have statistics - only statistics in terms of hospitals.

No. What happens is that when a guy is in a slide with a car, three or four days later his shoulder starts to act up. The hospitals started to report voluntarily last year. That is the Mater and St. James's.

That is all.

St. Vincent's is probably going to come on board as well but it is not across the board. With the hospital structure the way it is, some are voluntary hospitals and some are part of the HSE so you will not get the full picture in that regard.

Could we get that information from insurance companies?

You are not going to get it unless there is a claim. It is going to be false. That is the bottom line, unless there is a claim. I might injure myself and present in hospital three or four days later. Injuries often may not arise until a week or two later. It could even be a month or two before you discover it. You are not going to get any information there. I can guarantee that, based on what a consultant from the Mater stated in Croke Park last year. He said he would add another 30% to 40% onto the accident rate based on what they are looking at being presented in accident and emergency at a later stage, such as soft tissue injuries and various bits and pieces in that regard.

Could I get Mr. Noonan's feedback on the speed point because that is really interesting to me?

Which?

I refer to the suggestion that speed kills. Does Mr. Noonan believe speed is a major issue?

No, it does not.

Is that unanimous among all the witnesses?

I would not think it would be a major cause. Most motorcyclists - I am only speaking on behalf of a club I am involved in - obey the speed limit all the time. It is like what Mr. Noonan said; you use your discretion. You do not come along when you see a 80 km/h limit and say you have to do 80 km/h. You go with whatever you feel is right. You might be up, under or over but you are riding according to how you are thinking. On speed, I would think not.

It probably arises from what happens when the RSA looks at the circumstances of an accident. If a Garda investigator decided that the bike was doing 41 km/h, for argument's sake, and the speed limit was 40 km/h, then it was over the limit. The question you have to ask is this: if they were over the limit in an accident, by what percentage? Even if it is only 1%, there is no factor of allowance built in whatsoever. It may be that it is being determined on the basis that someone was travelling over the speed limit. The speed limit is 30 km/h in the inner city, or even 20 km/h in some places. If a bike is doing 22 km/h in such a place when there is an accident, it is seen as having been over the speed limit and the headline is "Speeding biker". You have to look at the dynamics of how something is reported as well from a practical point of view.

I will explain my understanding of the context of it. If a car - it is usually a car - hits a pedestrian at 20 km/h, a certain amount of damage is going to be done. At 30 km/h, the pedestrian is going to be hurt. At 40 km/h or 50 km/h, you are getting to the stage where the pedestrian is going to be seriously injured or killed. I wonder if that is the context we are talking about here.

It is about kinetic energy and the force. If you are doing 30 km/h and you stop instantly, the kinetic energy does all the damage.

I thank the witnesses. I appreciate it.

I have two very quick questions. I thank the witnesses for their insight and their help with framing this matter this morning. I wish to ask about general road design. Are there aspects of the design of Irish roads that the witnesses think make them particularly hazardous for motorcyclists? Are there features of the roads that are dangerous? I was very struck by Mr. Noonan's description earlier of travelling through a junction being like having "a sniper on both sides". When I got my driving lessons, my driving instructor used the exact same analogy. I still have that same caution and make sure I look when passing through a junction. I am keen to discuss the design of roads. We hear a lot of talk, rightly, about segregating cycling infrastructure to make it safer for cyclists and other road users. Are there aspects of design on Irish roads, compared to the witnesses' experience of Europe and elsewhere, where they would say they would introduce a particular aspect of design to Irish roads to make them safer for motorcyclists?

There is one design aspect I have come across in the UK. On rural roads, they have put chevrons at junctions. For example, on a left-hand junction, the chevrons are out a little bit to the right-hand side indicating where the biker should go. That seems to work very well for the positioning of a biker. On a left-hand bend, the biker will be out to the right-hand side, or to the centre of the road I should say, to give him a better view and also to be seen by oncoming traffic at an earlier stage. On a right-hand bend, the biker will be in to the left, avoiding all the crud and everything else that is in there. They will get in to the left, again to give a view around the right-hand side. These little chevrons on the road seem to really work over there.

I will expand on that. In other European countries, they are doing the same. It is like giving a guiding light to guide their direction.

It is almost saying, "This is where you should be to go around that bend". It seems to work very well.

Spain and France are doing it.

Is that new or long established in those countries?

No, it is relatively new. I was looking at stuff six months ago where they were experimenting with some areas. I can get some information about it and forward it on to the committee.

Great.

I will get that.

It is only paint.

It is only paint, exactly. If I am in a lane on the road, even though the bike is small, I will hold that lane. I do not keep to the left or the right. There are issues with some people. As far as I am concerned, I am travelling in a vehicle that is licensed to be on the road and I am not moving over for anybody. I do not mean that in a bad way but I treat myself like a bus or a truck. I will just sit there in that regard.

That is a on a straight road.

On a straight road, yes. The maintenance of infrastructure is an issue that will affect this. If you look at the statistics around road accidents, you will see which countries are low on fatalities with cars between 2 a.m. and 6 a.m.

The figures as to when accidents happen are there. That can be extrapolated and we can then look at the number of vehicles involved and at when real accidents happen. As I said, there is a higher rate among pedestrians. They are not travelling at 60 mph. Speed is not killing them. They are being hit by vehicles, but they are not driving on the roads, as such.

The issue with speed is the lack of awareness among drivers. If a driver hits someone while driving at 50 km/h, that is a serious incident. What made the driver hit that person the first place? Did they step off the footpath?

A lack of awareness.

A lack of awareness.

That is fine.

I apologise for my late arrival. I was detained in the Seanad on another matter. My colleague has covered what I was going to ask, namely for suggestions from the witnesses regarding layout and design. I thank the witnesses for their contributions.

In terms of my role as Chair, I thank the witnesses for accepting the invitation to attend. It has been really interesting to hear their perspectives, which will ultimately feed into our report.

I will reflect on the notes I have made and will raise a number of points in no particular order. Enforcement and policing are very much key issues, as are ongoing training and standards. Driver awareness and behaviour are major issues. Infrastructure and road use have been discussed. Obviously, we will consider policy and legislative measures. Reference was made to speed and risk. I thank the witnesses for their professionalism and clear commitment to road safety. What kind of bike does Mr. Ward ride? There are probably a few bikes in the garage. Something tells me-----

No, just the one.

I have a suspicion that Mr. Noonan probably has 40 bikes in a garage.

I just have one. It is a BMW Adventure R 1250 GS.

What year is that?

Last year.

If Mr. Noonan is going out for a ride this weekend, what is the number one favourite bike to take?

I have about four or five. Some old and some new. I would use a scooter for knocking around the city.

I am interested in the older stuff. Do you have any old bikes?

I only have 30 or 40.

The collections in garages around the country are extraordinary. People do not realise it. I assisted an individual with getting planning permission lately. That person has an extraordinary collection of and pure love for old bikes. What does Mr. McGrath ride?

I ride a Suzuki V-Strom 650. It has 70,000 miles on the clock, which I put on myself.

Surely Mr. Cronin has a Harley-Davidson.

No.

Do you have a bike at all?

I have three bikes. I have a vintage Honda VFR750F. I use all three regularly. My everyday bike is the Honda. The two other bikes for me and my wife are Honda Pan European 1300s.

That was an ad hoc question.

Above everything else, I commend the commitment of the witnesses to road safety. I again thank them for their contributions. They underlined the importance of training, awareness, enforcement and shared responsibility across all road users. Their evidence here today is of great value to the committee as we continue our work on policy recommendations and oversight in the area. It is not all about legislation; it is about culture, behaviour and accountability. We appreciate their willingness to engage. Does Mr. Ward want to come in?

What we have provided is the Bible we all work from.

Excellent.

It is from the Police Foundation in the UK.

If there is any follow-up information or data, will the witnesses to provide it? Evidence is very important in terms of how we frame our final report. If there are any follow-up documents they want to share, they can forward them by email.

I will send an email. There is a huge amount of information available on our website and on the FEMA website. The latter gives quite a lot of technical information from a general point of view.

Excellent. I thank Mr. Cronin and M McGrath from the Dublin Motorcycle Touring Group, Mr. Noonan from Ireland Motorcycle Association and Mr. Ward from RoSPA IART