I welcome everybody to this morning's meeting. Continuing our focus, we are here for further engagement on road safety. This is a focused programme of work for the committee. It comes against the background of an unfortunate increase in the number of road fatalities. A total of 190 precious lives were lost last year alone. That is a significant increase on previous years, when progress had been made. The number of deaths on Irish roads last year was the highest for quite a number of years. As a committee, we are very conscious that every statistic represents a family and a community devastated. That is why this committee is providing leadership in identifying concrete actions and recommendations that can be implemented in the short to medium term. Further engagement will continue after today. The aim is for the committee to produce a practical report containing strong recommendations around road safety.

The joint committee is delighted to welcome representatives from the Irish Road Haulage Association, IRHA, the National Bus and Rail Union, NBRU, and SIPTU. On behalf of the committee, I am pleased to welcome from the IRHA Mr. Eugene Drennan, deputy vice president, and Mr. Paul Jackman, board member. From the NBRU, I welcome Mr. Colm Meagher, vice president, and Mr. Thomas O'Connor, assistant general secretary. I also welcome Mr. Larry McKenna, national negotiating committee secretary and Bus Éireann driver, and Mr. Liam Weston, committee president and Dublin Bus driver, who are here representing SIPTU.

I will quickly read some notes on privilege. I remind our witnesses of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of that person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

We will begin with the IRHA. I invite Mr. Drennan to make his opening statement. We have received all of the statements in advance. I ask witnesses to be conscious of the five-minute time limit. Some of the statements might be a bit lengthy. Witnesses will have five minutes or maybe a little bit longer. I will give the glass a bit of a tip when they reach four and half minutes as a gentle reminder.

On behalf of the Irish Road Haulage Association, I would like to thank the Chair and members for the opportunity to appear before them today. We wish to acknowledge that, under Deputy Murphy's Chairmanship, we have been invited to attend on a number of occasions, reflecting his recognition of our role as the representative body for the road haulage sector.

We appear before the committee today to contribute to the discussion on road safety and to share the perspective of our members on this critical issue. We recognise that the road network is a shared environment used by many. For professional road transport operators, road safety is not an abstract policy issue; it is a practical everyday reality.

The national roads and motorways are our workplace, and ensuring that they are safe is fundamental to our daily operations and responsibilities.

Our members operate heavy goods vehicles throughout urban, regional, and rural areas across Ireland, giving us a direct, personal and vested interest in safer roads and better regulation. Today, we wish to focus on six critical areas that require urgent attention. One major and persistent issue that must be addressed is the current approach and the continued reliance on non-progressive methods of delivery by the Road Safety Authority, RSA, for many of the services it provides. Unfortunately, the statistics indicate that this approach is not sufficiently effective and has not achieved the desired results in its current form. Regrettably, many shortcomings in road safety reveal that the existing education systems are failing to deliver the necessary outcomes. I will address this issue in greater detail later.

It is vital to have more effective and visible enforcement. We believe that road safety policy must be supported by visible and meaningful enforcement that applies equally to all road users. Public service officials have contributed to the development of cycle lanes without clear rules for their use and without appropriate road signage indicating their presence. However, the changes to the road network and the large urban cycle lane templates do not automatically apply to smaller towns and villages. There is growing frustration within the industry that compliance is demanded of professional operators, and rightly so, yet enforcement across the broader road network is uneven.

The current driver training and testing system operated by the RSA is not delivering as it should, with the anomaly of the same entity having responsibility for both training and testing contributing to this outcome. The backlog in driving tests has created a situation where large numbers of learner drivers are waiting excessive periods for a test. Many are effectively forced into non-compliance because of the prolonged unacceptable waiting times. They must travel to work or school. This is not a failure of learners but a failure of system capacity. It is a symptom of the failure of the RSA and its inflexibility to be able to provide the test in a reasonable period. A modern road safety framework cannot tolerate structural delays that undermine respect for licensing rules and their intent. The RSA has stubbornly refused to move towards more advanced education, including the use of simulators, remote learning and delivering driver education in the recipient’s first language, which may not be English. The RSA should maintain an overview of the content being taught in schools, as well as the use of simulators and National Driver Licence Service, NDLS, centres as part of the transition year curriculum. These tools can effectively teach the fundamentals of road rules and good driving methodology and should include driving under various conditions, while also addressing gaps not covered in the current testing system.

The certificate of professional competence, CPC, is not fit for purpose as currently structured and administered by the Road Safety Authority and is failing to deliver meaningful improvements in road safety. Its content, materials and delivery are outdated and largely irrelevant to the needs of the modern heavy goods vehicle, HGV, driver. As a result, the training often amounts to little more than a wasted day, despite the significant time and resources required to complete it.

Our members invest significant time and financial resources in CPC training. However, it is too often perceived as repetitive, box-ticking and disconnected from real-world operational risks. We are calling for a comprehensive review of CPC content and delivery. Training should be targeted, evidence based and focused on both established and emerging road safety risks. It should make use of modern teaching aids and incorporate references to the driver assist and safety technologies that HGVs and buses are equipped with, rather than simply filling mandated hours. When professional drivers are required to undertake periodic mandatory training, it must demonstrably improve road safety outcomes in a manner that is modern, relevant and directly applicable.

I will leave out the section on practical infrastructure and road management improvements - members can question me about them - and move on to the last piece on data transparency and accuracy. We wish to address how road collision statistics are presented. Statistics published by the Road Safety Authority frequently cite the number of heavy goods vehicles involved in collisions. However, involvement does not equate to responsibility. There is a significant difference between being present in a collision and being the causative factor. Without publishing responsibility-based data, the narrative can unfairly distort public perception of the professional haulage sector and take the focus from where training and enforcement priorities should be focused. We urge greater transparency in the reporting of collision causation data so that policy and regulatory decisions are evidence based rather than based on hunches and anecdotes.

There are two sections left but the opening statement was circulated to members. The remainder deals with significant issues of governance and accountability in the RSA, and then there are a number of-----

Will I just give the conclusion?

We are constrained by time and I want to be fair to all. I will summarise the conclusions in the statement. These are: fair enforcement; a functional testing system; reform of the CPC; infrastructure improvement; and accurate and transparent data. There is also a significant section on concerns around the RSA's governance and accountability. I thank Mr. Drennan. I now ask Mr. O'Connor to make his opening statement.

On behalf of the NBRU, I thank the committee for the invitation to speak today on the very sobering and serious issue of road safety from the perspective of the members we represent in Dublin Bus. My trade union colleagues from SIPTU will discuss the issue from a Bus Éireann point of view.

The National Bus and Rail Union has been representing bus workers since its foundation in 1963, first within Córas Iompair Éireann, CIÉ, and subsequently within the subsidiary companies following the reorganisation of CIÉ in 1986. The NBRU has 4,000 members across the group today, the majority of whom are front-line workers.

Dublin Bus is the largest bus company in the State and carried an astonishing 164 million passengers in 2025. It operates 1,281 buses on 130 or so routes across 5,105 stops. These routes include 15 that operate on a 24-hour basis. There are 4,479 employees at Dublin Bus, a diverse workforce representing people from 89 different nations. Of these employees, 3,341 are drivers, who clock up an astonishing 1,018,000 km each and every week. All training is carried out at a state-of-the-art training centre at the Phibsborough depot. It takes for weeks for D licence applicants and six weeks for B licence applicants to graduate from the Dublin Bus training centre. Drivers are trained to pass a driving test and CPC bus practical test. These tests are conducted by the Road Safety Authority. Once a driver has completed the training programme and passed their category D licence driving test, they will be assigned a depot. Once they have started in a depot, they will enter a driver mentoring programme for first 12 months. The mentor will spend the first week with a new driver and then will check in on specific days throughout the driver's first year. Drivers are appointed after a six-month probationary, pursuant to legislative requirements. CPC annual training is conducted in-house and certified by the Road Safety Authority.

The opinions expressed here today not only reflect the membership of the NBRU but are also coloured by my nearly quarter of a century of driving experience behind the big wheel of a Dublin bus. The men and women of Córas Iompair Éireann and its subsidiaries are not immune to the travesty of accidents, having lost one of our brothers, Paul Conway, in a collision while carrying out his duties as a bus driver late last year. May he rest in peace. Given the high standards and professionalism of bus drivers and the vast investment of taxpayers' money being invested in public transport, the inherent risk associated with transport by road will be incrementally reduced each time we can convince a motorist to make the modal switch to public transport.

While the topic of road safety is a vast and complex issue, I have tried to distil some of the more important matters as succinctly as is practicable.

Regarding bus lanes and enforcement, a double-decker bus is a massive machine, typically weighing between 11 tonnes and 14 tonnes, depending on the model, and ranging in length from 10 m to 14 m. The optimal manner to drive such a vehicle around the winding suburban labyrinth that is Dublin is in straight lines. Every time a bus has to manoeuvre around obstacles, illegally parked cars or other obstructions, it increases the risk of accidents. Investment in bus lanes and adequate enforcement to keep them free is paramount for safety.

Regarding mandatory high-vis clothing, driving a large public service vehicle is hard. Navigating all the hazards when there is a deluge - a daily occurrence in Ireland - or at night is even harder.

The requirement for mandatory high-vis clothing for cyclists and scooters, from the perspective of a bus driver, would make the roads a safer place, as it would make potential hazards easier to spot. As they gain experience, bus drivers learn to anticipate things and often prevent potential accidents through pre-emptive defensive driving. High-visibility clothing would make that task inherently easier.

Regarding information and learning, I have fond memories of attending the Clontarf Traffic School as a schoolchild, which was a great educational and informative facility. Unfortunately, the traffic school closed in 2006. A new facility encompassing modern technologies could assist in educating our young about road usage and public transport. My personal view is that the whole subject of road safety, public transport and the rules of the road should be a mandatory part of the school curriculum.

Regarding road design, one of the most frustrating things for a professional bus driver is the road infrastructure layout. A large public service vehicle cannot turn on a sixpence and needs space to operate. Sandwiching bus stops between car parking spaces, littering footpaths with street furniture at the path's edge or not providing sufficient space for the bus to swing into a bus bay makes the operation riskier. There should be professional bus driver input into the design phase of our road layout to maximise safety. Cycle paths that intersect with bus stops have created a risk for vulnerable passengers, especially those with visual impairments.

It would be remiss of me to close without mention an item that is paramount to bus driver safety, and that is the provision of a dedicated transport security force. While the matter is currently being progressed, a well-resourced, well-trained, centrally operated transport security force is absolutely vital to increase the safety of transport workers and passengers alike. Such a force needs to have adequate legislative powers to enable it to function correctly, otherwise those who perpetrate antisocial behaviour will be emboldened in their disruptive behaviour in the face of a poorly empowered transport security force.

On behalf of the NBRU, I wish to thank the committee for the opportunity to speak today.

Good morning. On behalf of SIPTU, I would like to thank the committee for the opportunity to speak here today. SIPTU is the largest trade union in Ireland and the largest trade union within the public transport services sector. We organise and represent over 7,000 employees across the various operators that hold public transport contracts with the National Transport Authority, NTA, those being, Dublin Bus, Bus Éireann, Go-Ahead Ireland, Aircoach and many private operators. SIPTU represents over 3,000 bus drivers within the industry and their safety, the safety of the passengers they transport and, indeed, the safety of all road users is paramount, particularly with recent increases in road fatalities.

Road safety remains a critical concern across Ireland, and for bus drivers responsible for transporting large numbers of passengers daily, the stakes are uniquely high. Several interlinked issues shape the road safety landscape they navigate, many of which have intensified in recent years. One of the most pressing concerns is the increase in dangerous driving behaviours among general road users. Government reviews show a rise in speeding, distraction and intoxicated driving, with worrying trends emerging post pandemic. For example, research indicates that mobile phone distraction has become widespread, with one in four drivers sending text messages while driving. These behaviours dramatically elevate collision risks for larger vehicles like buses that require longer stopping distances and have limited manoeuvrability.

Compounding this issue is the ongoing rise in road fatalities and serious injuries despite long-term national strategies designed to reduce them. While Ireland once saw steady improvements in safety, three of the last four years have seen increases in deaths and critical injuries. In 2024 alone, 172 people were killed on Irish roads, up significantly compared with earlier years. Bus drivers, who spend long hours on the road and frequently operate in both rural and urban environments, face these heightened risks daily.

Urban environments present their own safety challenges. Recent research highlights the growing vulnerability of pedestrians, particularly children and adults over 65, on urban roads. Of pedestrian injuries, 89% occur in towns and cities, often involving collisions with cars or light goods vehicles. This increases pressure on bus drivers operating in congested areas where vulnerable road users, narrow lanes, bus stops, and mixed-traffic flow demand constant vigilance.

Vehicle trends are another emerging factor. Ireland’s increasing preference for larger SUVs and pickup trucks contributes to reduced visibility for all road users and increases collision severity. For bus drivers, sharing crowded streets with growing numbers of heavier, bulkier vehicles can limit manoeuvring space and make risk assessments, an already demanding part of the job, even more complex.

The broader transport context also shapes daily road safety challenges. Transport statistics from 2024 to 2025 show significant increases in public transport usage, road traffic volumes and the number of licensed drivers. While positive for mobility, these trends mean bus drivers must contend with busier roads, tighter schedules and increased pressure to maintain service reliability while ensuring safe operation at all times.

Bus drivers operate within a system actively pursuing major road safety reforms. National strategies aim to cut road deaths by 50% by 2030 through a safe system approach that involves infrastructure upgrades, behavioural interventions and technological improvements. While these initiatives promise long-term benefits, their gradual roll-out means drivers continue to manage daily risks in the meantime.

In summary, Irish bus drivers face a complex and evolving road safety environment shaped by dangerous driver behaviour, increasing traffic volumes, vulnerable road users, and changing vehicle trends. Their perspective underscores the need for continued investment in road user education. I thank members for their attention.

I thank Mr. McKenna. There are a number of common themes across all three opening statements: frustration with the RSA and its performance and structure; concern about how we design our infrastructure; demand for stronger enforcement; a big emphasis on driver safety and worsening road fatality trends; better education and modernised training systems, and a recognition that professional drivers are far more regulated compared to other road users.

I now invite committee members to ask questions.

I thank the witnesses for coming in. Obviously, the witnesses and their organisations' members are on the front line and we greatly value their analysis here today. The reason we are here is the recent rise in road fatalities.

I will begin with the Irish Road Haulage Association because Mr. Drennan was coming to one of his most important points in his opening statement but did not quite get there because of time constraints. It was about the accountability of, and confidence in, the RSA. The statement mentioned the independent study that had been commissioned by the RSA. A lot of money was spent on it but it was shelved late last year. As mentioned in the statement, the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, has said he is not going to accept the recommendation of the experts and officials to break the RSA into separate parts. Do the Irish Road Haulage Association representatives have any comment they want to make on that?

My first comment is reasonably obvious. Why was the report commissioned if straight away the Minister of State said he was not going to do anything about it? That is a waste of money and effort. We were one of the bodies that endeavoured to put something into it. Outside of us, I think there were over 30 bodies that recommended a full or fundamentally big change in the RSA. Now, nothing is going to be done about it or it is going to be done in-house. We do not have to say this, given that the statistics reveal the effectiveness of the RSA and the outcome of its endeavours, but we have to do better. That is the stark reality. We have these recommendations. Everyone who put proposals into that report did so with the best intent and with their experience. I do not think the Minister of State is a professional trainer, but his background was as an engineer, so he should know the roads.

The recommendations are not just for the RSA; they are also for the county councillors and the road makers. Where there are repeated accidents, there is a pinch point. There is something wrong. Perhaps there is an overgrown hedgerow or grass is covering the ground. There are areas of motorway that should be lit up because we have had a huge number of accidents. Since last September, there have been at least two accidents every week between Dromoland and Shannon Airport. There is a massive volume of traffic between 7.30 a.m. and 9.30 a.m. and then the road works fine after that. We have had a most unusual year of weather but for whatever reason it would help if the road and junctions were lit up, and reasonably quickly, because we have had far too many accidents on that stretch of road. Mr. Jackman will comment on the other issue.

My work in the IRHA is largely in Brussels now. I used to teach a module of the CPC and brought in my own material to make it relevant. All the speakers have referenced its obsolescence. My card was taken off me and I had to complete a course that would allow me to teach the CPC again but all I was trying to do was improve it. Outside of that, and the IRHA has communicated this, and I have personally shown the RSA direct examples of issues on the road but there has never been an outcome. The response has just been to say that they will be in touch and to thank me for my concern. There is never an outcome. I work in Brussels on behalf of the IRHA. We were on an expert panel. Now the driving licence directive is done. The driver training directive is up for review. The IRHA is on the expert panel for that. The CPC is very much part of that. I will give a very pertinent example. In Belgium - I introduced this to the RSA - they have 28 certified relevant courses for hauliers to tap into. These are delivered by a certified trainer as opposed to how the CPC is delivered. Holland has 22 courses. As a result, a haulier can undertake relevant courses in first aid, eco-driving, operating a crane, etc. The RSA, even though it engaged with Belgium, did not proceed with the initiative and, as a consequence, the CPC is irrelevant. Every driver who does a course is a missed opportunity. Now the driver training directive will introduce the use of simulators and modern training methods, which should have been introduced here years ago. The frustration for us, as an entity, is that in trying to engage and improve things, we have found that the only way to achieve it is to go to Brussels.

How does Ireland compare in terms of courses?

Belgium has 28 certified courses and Holland has 22 certified courses. The hauliers there use those courses. The drivers avail of training that is relevant to their operation and for the greater good with first aid courses. I can supply the committee with the list of courses.

Quite a number of the courses can be done remotely and inhouse in the haulage area, if the training is pertinent to the work. Hauliers can also tap into the courses on any day. The courses are available to hauliers. The courses are far broader and more wide-ranging in order to be relevant. The existing CPC is stuck in the same track for the last 25 years. They cover the same ground year on year. If drivers decide to participate, they must spend a full day irrespective of content.

It is outdated.

Course participants are bored and cannot take the course material home. The courses should be language specific and delivered to people's phones and divided into two or three modules. That would mean people could complete these courses in their own time and reference back to it. Such an initiative would make courses alive and relevant. There is a particular need to focus on the language and the city. I think everybody would agree with that. From the educators I have learned that translating English into a foreign language does not go in a straight line. I mean that even though people say "Yes", it is better to give them the option of saying "No" in order for people to think and give a full answer. If we say "Yes" then they will say "Yes" but they will not have got the message and the exercise is wasted.

A number of witnesses have mentioned road design, particularly the lack of proper design in towns and villages for, say, cyclists.

Yes, I mentioned that issue.

The Deputy may recall that last Thursday, I think, it was mentioned in the Dáil that there had been 90 incidents on the Kilcullen-Naas road between Timolin and Moone. That is a relevant update. Naas is a disaster. I ended up on all fours on the road in Naas because the local authority put a kerb between the road and the cycle lane. I believe there are multiple issues and cases ongoing there as well.

We supplied a video as part of our submission. It is quite long but at the 17-minute point there was a very bad bend and a truck had to go completely on the wrong side of the road. I am talking about a 2.5-mile cycle lane near me and it has 17 blind bends. After my accident there was another incident. On the following Saturday, the local farmers and a civil engineering contractor removed the whole bend. They did that work on a Saturday to avoid the council. They offered to do the same at two other bends, where the landowners gave the ground, but they were refused permission.

The roads cannot deal with what is happening. We are inviting people to drive around many blind bends and the errors, no matter how small, become fatal because of heading towards a solid object.

We supplied a video but members may not have had a chance to view it. Our video is about road design, hedgerows, junctions and cycle lanes. Cities have bigger schemes of cycle lanes. As the village of Moone was mentioned, I want to mention that since Moone was bypassed there have been virtually no accidents. However, since cycle lanes have been built in Moone there have been 61 or 71 accidents, one of which resulted in life-threatening injuries and a car being totally written off because of the template and measurements that are being used in villages that do not have the room.

Before Deputy O'Gorman commences, I want to ask a few questions. The CPC is the main training instrument for HGV drivers. How often must HGV drivers undertake a CPC? How much does the CPC cost? Is the IRHA saying that the curriculum for the CPC course has not changed in 25 years? Please put on the record an explanation of the CPC.

The CPC, or certificate of professional competence, is an EU-mandated course that truck drivers must do as part of their training to get their licence. It is an annual course. Truck drivers must do five modules and there is a sixth module for bus drivers. In Ireland, the CPC must be done in a five-year cycle. I can say, as someone who taught part of the CPC, that it is largely irrelevant because modern trucks and buses are full of technology. Now buses have cameras instead of mirrors. There are other technologies like emergency brake assist, EBA, stability control and lane assist, none of which are mentioned in the CPC. Plus, 99.9% of the trucks and buses that are sold are now automatic yet here in Ireland drivers must learn about gearboxes and crash boxes, etc.

Is the CPC the only training that is available to HGV drivers? The courses in Belgium and Holland have been mentioned, and Holland has 22 courses.

Yes.

I regularly see CPC courses being advertised as taking place in the Talbot Hotel in Clonmel. How much does it cost a HGV driver or a company? Is the fee paid to the RSA? Does a percentage of the fee go to the RSA?

A percentage of the fee goes to the RSA. The module is still in book form or log form as opposed to a digital format, where the course could be updated to match what is happening not only from a legislation perspective but also in vehicle technology. As the course is written on pages, it keeps falling behind.

How much does each course or each cycle cost?

It costs between €50 and €70, depending on the demand, where people must go to the hotel.

Does part of the fee go to the trainer?

Yes.

Does the remainder of the fee go to the RSA?

Yes, and the venue. It is a mandated EU thing. In Belgium and Holland, the CPC has been expanded, relevant courses that hauliers want have been added and approval is granted by their equivalent of the RSA. Now, every haulier in both countries can access these courses, which benefit the drivers, and the CPC card now gets value for the drivers.

Why has the RSA resisted that change?

I have no idea.

They never flinched and have stuck to their methodologies.

We have discussed the CPC a lot because, for the record, it is important that people understand this.

It is a legal requirement that bus drivers carry a CPC card and a driver's licence. There are five modules, with one to be done each year. The likes of Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann conduct in-house CPC courses. There is a cost for the companies because they release the drivers for a day. The material is the same. I cannot recall how many CPC modules I have done but the book has never changed. It is an academic day in a classroom.

Is the CPC a waste of time and money-making racket?

Yes.

I have had drivers say the same to me and I have said this in Brussels.

It is what HGV drivers have said to me.

Yes.

Yes.

I have met HGV drivers at the Talbot Hotel and friends of mine have done the CPC. They have all described the CPC as a money-making racket.

Yes. For the benefit of people I am holding aloft my CPC card. By law, drivers must carry an in-date CPC card.

Does everybody share the same view? Yes.

To clarify, the Belgian method ensures people can choose the modules that are relevant to the transport they are doing.

They do not have to do the totality. A certain group of them will be amalgamated into one CPC section.

Thank you. I call Deputy O'Gorman.

Obviously, the safety of people on our roads is central to this module and the work the committee has been doing in recent weeks. Mr. O'Connor rightly drew our attention to the safety of the NBRU's members. The men and women who drive our buses, our trains and our Luas trams should be free from abuse, intimidation and threat of violence. Like Mr. O'Connor, I agree with the idea of a transport security force. It is something we have pushed the Minister on a number of times here. He has committed to it. I would love to see a clearer timeline for when this will be rolled out. Maybe it is something we can raise with him when he is here next week. I would be interested in understanding the NBRU's vision for how that would actually work. I am familiar, as a daily train user, with the lads in black who do security, particularly at night, on our trains. Would the NBRU see it as a group of people who move around across trains and across bus routes? Does the NBRU think powers of fine, arrest or detention are necessary to give this force the status and the ability to actually ensure security for commuters and for the NBRU's members who drive public transport?

The legislative powers that these people will be empowered with are vital. There are machinations ongoing in the Department, in working groups, to try to bottom out what that would look like, but it is vital that the security force has the powers of detention and arrest. Otherwise, they will just be glorified bouncers on buses, and the people who carry out these atrocities would quickly cop on that the security guard, if they do not have the requisite powers, will not be able to lay a finger on them and it will just be an expensive waste of time. We have been calling for a well-funded, well-powered central transport police force. There is no point in having something ad hoc whereby Bus Éireann or Dublin Bus has a couple of security guards and there is no joined-up thinking. They need to be organised centrally. The hot spots where this antisocial behaviour takes place, whether it be in Limerick, Cork, Dublin or wherever else, are well known. This is data led. Some 95% of the antisocial behaviour is reoccurring in these hot spots, so we know where the resources will be required. It is important to have a well-trained force that can operate across different transport modes, whether they be Luas, rural bus, urban bus or trains. That is-----

Does Mr. O'Connor have a sense of scale for this to be effective? Does he have a sense of how many officers this security transport force would need?

I do not have exact numbers but it would not need to be excessive. We would need a couple of hundred. We are talking about a public transport network that, according to the NTA, carried 337 million people last year. That is a network that needs to be policed. We are talking about climate change all the time. We want to make people move to public transport. They will not do so if they do not feel safe. They will be hesitant to go upstairs on a double-decker bus late at night or get locked into a train carriage if there is antisocial behaviour. A visible, extensive transport security force will act as a deterrent to all but the hardened perpetrators of antisocial behaviour.

There is another issue as well alongside the transport security force. For the members we represent in Bus Éireann on the non-urban buses, the interurban fleet, there are no security screens. We have had two people in recent years whose careers have been ended by violent physical assault and they did not have the basic protection of a security screen. That is an NTA and a governmental problem because they cite design and safety because of glare and so on. One would think that an employee should have the basic protection of a screen. From my point of view and the NBRU's point of view, these people who are operating the buses without security screens do not have a safe place of work.

I was interested in the points Mr. McKenna made in his opening statement about the impact of larger private vehicles on our roads for SIPTU's members. He cited issues to do with manoeuvrability of our buses vis-à-vis maybe a big SUV, visibility and the risk assessment a bus driver has to do probably many times on every single journey. Could Mr. McKenna flesh that out a little more for us in terms of the impact it is having on SIPTU's members and the challenges they face in manoeuvring large buses around our towns and cities every day?

Between country driving and city driving, there are two differences. In the city you encounter lorries offloading at bus stops and SUVs and larger vehicles on the roads. Going through towns, bus stops are very hard to get into. The infrastructure in towns could be improved a lot. Picking up people in the countryside, there is no lay-by for buses to pull in. They could be all improved on. Overall, the infrastructure needs to be looked at. All the bus stops around the city need to be looked at. The NTA may come on board. That is basically it.

I was really struck by Mr. Drennan's criticism of the RSA. It is something that has been repeated a lot from people representing all different types of road user. What is his organisation's vision? Is it splitting it into an organisation focused purely on road safety and then another one dealing with the mechanics of the test and so on, as was proposed in the piece of work that was commissioned and was going to be implemented and is now being ignored? Is that the vision of his organisation, or does he have something a little more distinct as to how he thinks we can not only achieve that goal of an independent advocacy group for road safety but also do the bread-and-butter work of the road safety test and other functions?

We are so definite about this on the basis of the work we have done over six, eight or ten years - all through Covid - on different subcommittees to try to see change come about, particularly with regard to education, the simulators and simplifying the CPC. It is such a waste of time for a driver now the way it has transpired. From that frustration comes our being definite about what we have to say about the RSA. How we would see it split up is cumulative. We do not mind unduly how it splits up, but it does not seem to be able to effectively manage the huge authority it has. It is a full authority with great powers. It should have had this corrected internally a long time ago, but whether it is because of its schedules, its employment or how it does its work - for whatever reason - there is a kind of rigidness to it and it is not flexible enough. What the Deputy says is very relevant - one could have the educational role and the other could be the examiner or the vehicle tester. There could be the roadside checks and just the testers to one side and purely education to the other, or whatever consideration we give to what it has in-house. There are some very good parts to the RSA. Let us not knock it totally. It has done wonders on the testing of our bigger vehicles, albeit maybe a bit too frequently and a little over the top in some of the minutiae some years ago. We have heavy battles-----

We will come back to that. I need to move on. I call Deputy O'Hara.

I thank all the witnesses for their time. Following on from that last question, the IRHA has been very critical, and the witnesses have set out their views on the restructuring and so on. I ask the SIPTU and NBRU representatives if they have any views about that and about the recommendations of that report, and if or how the RSA should be restructured.

As regards the RSA, from a bus driver's point of view, it is fairly academic, as I said. The drivers are required to sit in a classroom once a year to maintain their CPC card. They have to carry out a first-use bus check in the morning on the vehicles to make sure they are roadworthy. Apart from that, however, there is not much interaction with the RSA. Once a driver has qualified with the RSA driving test, they just need to pass a medical every five years to maintain their category D licence. Bus drivers' interactions with the RSA would be limited to that. The company looks after most of the administration; the driver just has to maintain their CPC card through a portal on the RSA website. Our bus driver concentration would be on road safety, road design and enforcement of bus lanes, etc.

Just going back to the CPC, did I catch it right that Mr. O'Connor said it is once a year that the drivers have to complete that?

Yes. There are five modules for the professional bus driver. We do not do the truck module so we just do five. You have to do that module each year. Over five years, you have to have the five modules done so you can be reissued with your CPC card, which you have to carry with your driver's licence at all times.

Mr. O'Connor would say that this is quite a burden on drivers that does not have a lot of tangible benefits from a-----

It does not. You sit in a classroom with the same material. You do a module every five years and the material does not change. It is the same book.

How long would Mr. O'Connor say it remains the same for?

It lasts 15 years to my memory.

Really? Wow.

To add to that, I agree with our colleagues that the CPC is of no purpose now but there is also an issue with the CPC course. People complete the course, send off for their card and the cards are coming back late. If a driver does not have a card, he is not allowed to drive. This is a regular occurrence now and there does not seem to be a solution to it. In some cases, drivers are waiting for them for six weeks before they can drive and carry passengers.

Have members of the IRHA been prevented from driving as a result of that?

Yes.

They have been put on hold, yes.

I will allow Deputy O'Hara more time. Is a CPC card for a five-year cycle?

Every five years it has to be renewed.

So when you complete the cycle there can be delay on getting your new five-year card-----

Correct.

-----and without that card you cannot drive.

You cannot drive with passengers.

How far in advance of that renewal date would you be invited to sit the course or how does that process work?

The last time they were renewed was during Covid, I think, but the people in Dublin Bus would have done the course well before the due date and half the drivers did not have the cards by the due date. There had to be some exemptions made at that stage. Since then, there have also been individual cases where the cards have not been issued on time.

The backlog in testing was mentioned and the waiting times. Can I get an idea from each of the witnesses about what the situation is like for its members waiting on testing in terms of the length of time for a bus or a lorry-driving test? We will start with the IRHA.

I do not know what the backlog for the wait time is but I had a horrendous issue last year involving a young Irish chap, native to my own town in County Clare, who came back from Australia. He had his rigid licence done here. He had his CPC card for that module. Someone within the RSA said he had to go back to do his theory test which is a scenario they give you. We needed to get him up to the artic level. Without taking up too much time of the committee, he came home in January and he started a course to try to go through all the different strata of it in February. He was ready to go to England from here - to go outside the country to get everything in place - in early November. He was Irish and he had an Irish licence. He was returning to Ireland for a job and that is the messing that went on. It was outrageous.

Is that typical? Would that be a regular occurrence?

That may not be typical or as regular an occurrence but if we are bringing people in under permit to drive, what is the length of time from their arrival to the go? It can be anything from six weeks to two and a half months. They are in the country and trying to keep going. There are delays everywhere. Parts of the system are outrageous. The theory test is a "what if, perhaps and maybe" situation. You have to do that first. You have to wait four or five weeks to get to that. Then you have to do your walk-around test and only then can you get in to start the training or do your driver's test. Then you must do your CPCs. In the case of that young lad who came home from Australia, I asked the RSA if we could pay for and employ a registered CPC course-giver to give the course in conjunction with the rest of what was going on. No. The RSA was rigid in its enforcement. You had to do A, and then B, and then C, and then D. You could not mix it up how it was done or have any efficiencies. That is what is happening across the process. The efficiencies are not there. The RSA is entrenched in what it does and how it does it, which is in exactly the same way it did it all those years ago. As Mr. Jackman has fully explained, things have changed since then. With the changes in the knowledge within trucks, the driving and the technology that is in vehicles, it needs to change. Mr. Jackman may want to add to that.

I will bring it back to road safety, which is very much part of it as well. I am thinking of the CPC in particular. The video that was shared before this meeting was sent to every road engineer and every safety officer of every local authority in Ireland, but there has not been one response back to the IRHA. This was sent years ago. The road that we exposed through it is 2.5 miles long with 17 blind bends. There have been multiple accidents on it, and there has been no change other than what the locals did. The locals took one bend out of it. The following week, in Ballymacaw near Dunmore, the locals got together and took a bend out of it, inspired by what happened in Dunhill. That is the level of frustration that is out there. People see where the infrastructure is wrong, they see where improvements can be made and they have to go out and do it themselves. The local authority could take months putting together a standard operating procedure to do something that is going to cost hundreds of thousands. On the way up the road this morning, just to confirm the detail behind it, I spoke to the civil contractor who voluntarily gave his time to do this. He said that when they were in the pub, a man came in who was after getting hit by the mirror of a car on that bend, and they decided there and then they were going to do it the following Saturday, and they did. In fairness to them, they all did it voluntarily. Local to me, and I am not going to go into details for obvious reasons, I know of 14 fatalities - I knew some of the people - that happened because of infrastructure issues, such as trees sticking out and branches of trees hitting the back of machines and forcing trucks onto the wrong side of the road. Even the gentleman I spoke to this morning had a wide machine on a tractor coming up to a bend when a cyclist came around against him and a car came flying around the bend. The car had nowhere to go because he was coming and there was no gap, so he ended up in the ditch on his left. That happened last week. This is what is going on because the bends are blind. It is a simple solution to go out and clear out some of those extremely bad bends at junctions, as Mr. Drennan said. I do not understand why we are not pursuing it as a matter of policy.

I thank all the witnesses for coming in. We have heard from loads of different road users in the last few weeks and we have been listening. Cyclists, motorcyclists and the members of the organisations here are all really skilled drivers. We should be all sharing the road. It seems to me that it is the cars and enforcement is the problem, and definitely the RSA. The problems within the RSA have come up over and over again. It may be that its brief is too big and that it is not willing to change that with the times. The witnesses have all come up with this. A suggestion came up a few weeks ago at one of the other committee meetings. The independently commissioned report was not adhered to. The recommendations were not listened to even though the officials in the Department wanted the organisation to be split. What would the witnesses think of the idea of having an ombudsman for road safety? Safety at work could be part of that. It would be completely outside as an oversight body looking at road safety. Do any of the witnesses have any thoughts on that?

Would this ombudsman be making decisions?

Yes, particularly around road safety. We could take out car testing and all of that. It would look at the safety of every road user and would have a level of oversight of the RSA.

That would be an excellent idea if the powers and remit of such a body were extensive enough to cover all aspects, including infrastructure. I was delayed getting here this morning. There are bus lanes on Harrington Street and Camden Street but my bus was stuck at the junction between those streets for four changes of lights because when that junction was designed, no yellow box was put in place. The bus cannot make the turn like a car. It needs to be a yellow-box junction; otherwise, the traffic blocks its path. Everyone else gets frustrated because the traffic is held up because the bus cannot go from bus lane to bus lane. It is simple stuff like that. I could sit here all day and give hundreds of examples of junctions, footpaths and roads across the city and across Ireland where these problems are inherent in the design because there is no input by the professionals - the truck drivers and bus drivers - who could tell you off the top of their head what needs to be done. It is not expensive. How much would it cost to paint a yellow box at a junction?

It has come up in the last few weeks that there is no input from road users, like the witnesses, or from other countries. We heard from motorcyclists last week who said they were feeding information to Europe whereas the RSA is not giving them a space to be listened to here at all. It is not taking anything on board. Mr. McKenna mentioned design. I live in Sligo and I am a cyclist. With regard to active travel, we want to have cycle lanes but they are just fired in with very little thought or very little input on road use from people like the witnesses. Again, the RSA has come up. I do not know if the witnesses know any more about this, but it is said that the RSA is not sharing information with the local authorities around what Mr. Drennan said in his opening statement about responsibility.

Certain information is being shared, but not full information to allow local authority engineering staff to adjust accordingly to the information that has come in. Do the witnesses have any experience around that?

What we said was more qualitative data is needed. That is statistical data, not qualitative. That is more or less what we are saying. As regards the numbers, I do not think it would need to go that far. The RSA is an authority and as such has good powers and should be able to hit the county councils, as it were. Regarding what Mr. Jackman outlined as to what was done in Waterford for cyclists, on country roads in particular, it is a question of sight and sight distance. If there is a high hedgerow, though it might be very nice outside of the estate, if it is blocking sight distance and there is potential for accidents, it should be chopped.

It is affecting everyone.

It should be safe for vision. The RSA should have the power to say to the county council that its goal or quota it is settling on is, for example, if there are more than ten accidents on one road, or even more than three accidents, it is goodbye and a case of when it will be remedied.

Is that fed into the county council?

If we go back to the RSA ad, 70 to 80% of the fatalities are on rural roads. That is an RSA statistic. The ad, which we heard on the radio, is one where the driver meets the tractor and it says in it that you never know what is coming. There is the problem. This committee could just say it wants to deal with the rural roads and is going to fund the local authority to take out the hedgerows, remove the trees, especially on the bends, and get rid of that blind bend aspect that is contributing so much to so many incidents, in my mind, and I can give examples but I will not. You never know what is coming. That is what the RSA is stating in its ads. That is the problem with the roads. You are driving blind on these rural roads.

There are structural issues around safety. There are infrastructure deficits, but also regarding education and policing. In respect of enforcement, we can see there are not enough gardaí on the road. There are definitely not enough gardaí checking the roads.

Can I ask Mr. O'Connor about the transport police? Many countries have a dedicated transport police force. Are there any moves on that? They would be trained as part of the police. Is that how Mr. O'Connor sees it?

No, but the training should be done. There should be cognisance taken of the by-laws. There is a whole set of by-laws for Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann. There is the Railway Safety Act for Iarnród Éireann. They would have to be trained up on all of that as well as, obviously, the basics of law. If they are to be empowered, which is necessary, to caution and detain someone until An Garda Síochána come, they would have to have some sort of training in relation to that. We have spoken to An Garda Síochána. An Garda Síochána would rather someone who is well trained, because when it comes to court, if there is a security guard in a corner shop, for instance, they do not want to come to court. If there is a well-trained security force, they will have all the details down, they will appear in court, and there will be convictions against people who cause this antisocial behaviour. It is the public convictions - there was one in the north of the country in the past couple of weeks with a sentence of two and a half years, with six months suspended - that send a positive message that you cannot attack front-line workers, especially front-line transport workers.

So the Garda is in agreement with this?

Yes.

Great. One of the witnesses talked about having screens for drivers. How is that not being listened to? The witnesses have obviously raised this as a safety point?

We have raised it. The coaches are bought in the main from Europe, Spain being one of the predominant countries. They are not manufactured with security screens. We cannot retrofit a security screen because then the bus will not be certified. It would invalidate the warranty. The coach would not be certified from a safety point of view because of glare. Everyone is saying they cannot do this or that, but the bottom line is the workers are going out, day in, day out in Bus Éireann buses without the protection of a security screen, and since Covid, for whatever reason I cannot explain, the attacks have become more vicious and violent and we have had people with fractured skulls and horrendous injuries perpetrated by these people.

The NTA needs to be questioned over the screens, because we in Bus Éireann raise this regularly. The NTA is buying these busses, and there is no collaboration with the unions or the workers or anything.

I think Mr. O'Connor is right. We need to ask those questions of the NTA and make sure that the highest quality and best equipment is there to support the safety of bus drivers and public transport operators. The witnesses can take it for granted that this report and this committee is going to have questions to ask of the RSA and is not going to be shy in pointing out where we believe there are issues. In relation to road safety, what explicitly would the witnesses change within the process for HGVs and large vehicles on the road? They are talking about the CPC. Some of the questions that I had have been covered already, but what concrete changes would they make?

There was mention of the process and that, every five years, they have to renew their CPC and go through a process and need their medicals. What about the vehicle checks? What vehicle checks are there as well? It is not just about the drivers; it is about the vehicles.

What I said earlier is that I have done some work on behalf of the IRJ in Brussels, and we are being very proactive and productive over there, I do not mind saying. Part of that is the driver training directive. We have changed the specifications of the machines that are used to make them more relevant, ensure they have a digital tachograph and a modern emissions system, which includes AdBlue, which is just a modern diesel truck, because under the old directive they could use anything. We are finding as an industry that if someone comes into our yard with a new shiny licence issued by the State through the RSA, and we set up the traineeship in the ETBs - we had the traineeship in seven ETBs, I was responsible for it, so I was going around and meeting people - I am shocked at the poor standard of driver's ability when they are trained and they have their licence. Many of our haulier members who got involved and did the work placement programme have found that drivers who had their licence were not able to drive.

An aspect of that which has to be embedded in the new training directive, which we are working on in Brussels, is that we are looking at young people who are now coming from a digital age. My vintage would have gone through a mechanical age, when we worked with machines, fixed punctures on bicycles and took lawnmowers apart. The next generation does not do that. Its entertainment and environment are digital. When the young people are actually getting involved, and this transfers to a car as well, they do not have a relationship with the machine like we would have had. That contributes to an aspect of what is going on on our roads. It is very evident in the truck world, where drivers cannot deal with an issue. They do not understand the mechanics of the machine. When there is an issue, they are straight on the phone. They cannot deal with it because they just do not have that sensibility or expertise. As an example, my son arrived out to my house one day with his friend who had just bought a second-hand car, and he asked me to check it because there was a vibration in it. I asked him to open the bonnet, and he did not know how to open the bonnet of the car, nor did my son. It is just to make that point. The training has to change, and this is happening in Brussels, and it is to be hoped it will integrate those aspects.

Years ago, a young person who was interested in trucks would have been in Mr. Drennan's yard or my yard. They would have spent Saturdays off in the trucks and got a grá for it and an understanding. That does not happen now because the kids are not interested and health and safety has stopped them from being in the truck with you. They are coming as raw as possible, and they need training in the industry. The new licence directive is steering it that way, that the training can happen in the yard. For example, the closed box body is in the training directive. All training has to be in a closed box body. Mr. Drennan does not have a closed box body and neither do I. I do tippers and tanker work. Mr. Drennan is similar, with flats and that. These things need to change to allow me take someone into my yard to train them to a level that they need now. They need this hands-on training to a level that was not required before because of what I have just described.

On the walk-around, they say that has gone largely digital. Drivers have a have a list of things to check - I am sure the bus people will say the same - and they just go around and tick them off, and that is emailed back to the office.

Who is checking them?

That is it. That is the question. Who knows if somebody leaving at three or four o'clock in the morning walks around.

It is evidence based. If something happens, you take the scrutiny then. It is necessary that it is taught and it is necessary to try to check up and see it is done, but nobody can say for certain, 100%, that it is always done.

The Deputy asked for one thing we would like to see. Before we go off the subject, it is about the vehicles being checked. They are checked every year and it is a stringent check. It is what the RSA-----

Is that done through the RSA?

And every 13 weeks through the garage.

It goes through the garage every 13 weeks for an overview. The RSA has been good at this. It has been a bit overstringent at times and some of its knowledge was not up to date a few years ago but that has all been straightened out. The RSA is very good at that. Vehicles are checked every year. It is too expensive, though. It is the dearest in Europe and a levy has been put on top as well. It is crazy.

The one thing we would like to see, and I join the bus organisations on this, is old fashioned, that cyclists would wear high-vis of some sort and put a light on their bike.

Does the RSA have specific professional checkers who come out yearly and check all of the vehicles?

You have to go to test centres. You have to go to the professional mechanics.

Each operator, and I presume it is the same with buses, has a risk rating which is on the RSA portal, so you can check your risk rating. Each operator gets a score. I was audited last year, two years before that and two years before also, where they come out and check your service records and the fact that you have a file per trailer and are tracking it. It is mandatory that a trailer and a truck is checked every 13 weeks, and I presume it is the same for a bus.

And there are no issues there with resources? One of the big issues, I believe, is that we do not have enough testers for the driving test process, but do we have enough-----

The Deputy is mixing up a few things there. Driver testing is just for driving ability. The test centres are usually privately owned-----

I know that.

-----under the view and strict control of the RSA, and it has mechanical testers. Our inspections are ad hoc. It is when they have time or whenever they come by. They do not really need to come that frequently to us because the evidence is on the road. We have not seen trucks broken down forever along the road. We do not see that statistic coming up so much. The RSA has the record of the test, is assured of it, and it is passed annually, and it is just to check the operator is doing regular maintenance. I have been checked twice this year.

As an industry, relative to what it started out as, which was quite a time ago, the quality of the equipment in Ireland is a credit to the RSA. There was a time when the English fleet would embarrass the Irish fleet. It is actually the opposite now.

That is happening in a lot of areas.

I want to answer the question relating to the vehicles.

Very quickly.

Regarding the vehicles from the first use bus check, from a Dublin Bus-Bus Éireann point of view, that is embedded into the culture of the companies. There are in-house mechanics. There is assistance to aid with the first use bus check, so that happens naturally. I would have concerns about some of the buses and coaches you see in the private sector. You would wonder how they are actually on the roads.

I thank Mr. O'Connor.

We need to hear from Mr. O'Connor on that.

I ask our guests to excuse me if I have to go because I am supposed to be speaking elsewhere in the next two to three minutes, but I have questions to ask, especially of the IRHA. I welcome the witnesses today. I have listened to some of the issues out there. I might blurt out all the big issues together and Mr. Drennan or whoever can answer them when they get a chance. They include road signage. How much does a bus or lorry mirror cost? In my constituency of Cork South-West we are riddled with trees right across the road and I often meet lorry drivers who, through no fault of their own, are across the white line because they want to save their mirrors, but on the other hand they could squash me to death so I jam on the brakes and hit the ditch, or I do not want to go up against the ditch. It is the same with bus drivers. I pity them. I genuinely have sympathy for them. How in the name of God can they drive?

There are so many accidents going on that we hear nothing about. It is all down to drink and drugs as far as the world is concerned, and the media in particular, but it is not. It is down to the condition of our roads. They are riddled with potholes. There are no passing bays, there are branches all over the place and there is no signage. If you come out onto the main road from Caheragh to Drimoleague, I have been asking for the past 12 months, for a simple stop sign that was there before to be painted on the road. People tell me they drive out. They should not drive out but they do, and bang. However, there is no point. It does not happen as there is no money or there is no this or no that. I respect there is a huge difficulty for the witnesses there.

I do not agree with one of the previous speakers who said there are no gardaí. The Garda do an excellent job in my own constituency. There were no gardaí appointed to west Cork during the past two allocations of new gardaí, so we do have a shortage of gardaí, but as for what they are doing, five times last weekend I either saw a garda or was held up by a garda in their line of duty. I cannot fault the gardaí doing what they are doing. They cannot be on every bend and twist in the country.

Another thing is the education of our young people. I would appreciate if the witnesses could elaborate on that. I will go on to having flexibility on different issues. The verges are a big issue for me. It is not an issue in every county. I see some counties have cleared back the verges and that was sorted out through the local authorities, but it is a massive issue where we are, as is the condition of our roads.

On the main issues about the roadside the Deputy spoke about, we had a comment from Mr. Jackman about what they have done in Waterford where they just took some bends out. If you talk to Senator Cosgrove, who is a cyclist, the big issue for many is vision, where there are hedgerows, trees or even very high walls where they are not needed, whereas a timber or other sort of fence would let you see through. In fairness and in reality, county councils cannot widen every road immediately and cannot take out every bend but we can do a lot in regard to vision.

The cost of a mirror would be somewhere between €300 and €1,000, but then they are heated and need to be able to swivel and turn, so the fitting of them is another issue.

One thing for Deputy Collins' area, Deputy Crowe's area in Clare, in my area and in County Kerry is satnav and tourists religiously following the satnav. Satnav does not emphasise the yield right of ways and the stop signs. It should speak it. Tourists drive through them. We have had serious accidents with them not being able to see the signs. It should keep them to the main route for the most part. They are taking the shorter route, going along roads they should never be on and getting lost and into all sorts of issues. We see a lot of accidents from that.

We have gone through the issue of education and Mr. Jackman has spent years trying to improve the education. For a long time now we have pleaded, particularly in the gap year in secondary schools, when they are often caught for items of interest to young people or things for them to do, for the use of simulators in schools, and in the DVLA centres for people who are not from Ireland, who have just arrived here and who might not know what we do and how we do it, to make sure they do the course. For those in the 15 to 17 years age bracket, there would be a programme for tractors in those simulators. Young men and women who drive tractors are the backbone and it is just that they would have a proper training course so they would have the same template of knowledge of the power, the weight, the pick-up hitch, and that they may have a heavier load on today than others. Car drivers would take cognisance of a lot of things through the simulator and that would feed into their driving. They would be rated and graded and it could be part of an accreditation for when they go for their licences. They would know about road conditions. They would know they may have a second grade car that will get them to college but it is not the best in the world and to be cognisant of that when they are going to school. They would be shown how to lift the bonnet and dip the oil, about good indicating and good driving progress, and about what the test does not cover at the moment, such as joining, travelling and overtaking on motorways, weather conditions, frosty conditions, and front- and rear-wheel drive cars. They are at the best time to be the recipient of knowledge of this wider dimension of education and it should be taken advantage of and the programme should be set up. Does Mr. Jackman want to add to that?

An example of that is in Germany where they give you a test certificate and you can drive a year earlier than is mandated under the licence. That test certificate means you have passed your test. There is a name on that test certificate of a third party who is aged over 25 and has a minimum of five years' driving experience. You can drive your car only when that person is with you. What you are doing then is learning about different conditions such as being out in the dark, and you can only drive with that person and have no one else in the car. It has been limited that way. After a year, you get your full licence.

Under the conditions of the new licence directive, 17-year-olds can drive a rigid truck. That would be an option, although the RSA has already stated it will not adopt it. According to the data in Germany, there is a 19% reduction in claims by those people up to 21 years of age. They spend time on the road with an experienced person beside them. As Mr. Drennan said, the experienced driver can show them about exiting a motorway and explain that a truck has a speed limiter when it is coming down the slip lane, meaning that a truck cannot accelerate, so the young driver would be better going inside the truck on the slip lane and getting out ahead rather than braking and creating chaos on the motorway. That is just an example.

Education is a vital area. The first time that someone picks up a copy of Rules of the Road is when they try to pass their theory test to get a provisional licence. That person could be 18, 19 or 20 years of age and upwards. Why are we wasting all those years? It should be a part of the primary and secondary school curriculums. With the education and knowledge that people would have when they reach 20 if it were taught in schools, how many lives would be saved?

I welcome all the witnesses. Between them, they definitely have the most highly trained drivers on the roads in Ireland. They must be proud. I know the amount of training they have to go through and the cost of it. I am biased. I will put my hands up and say that my husband is a HGV driver.

I knew that. I could not recall was he a motorcyclist or a truck driver.

I get the CPC course. I have heard him giving out for the past week that he has to do a CPC course. It means taking a full day off on Saturday. He cannot work. It means going in, sitting down and listening to somebody who has either never stepped into a truck and has learned it all from a book or somebody who has not driven in so many years that they do not know the new technology that is in the trucks. He said it is a complete waste of time. It is like being called to go for an endoscopy. That is how he feels. He says what they have to go through is ridiculous. They have to do so many and lose so many days of work. He then has to try to make up for what he has lost. The company has to rotate its drivers to ensure it is not losing out on contracts and loads it has to do. I get the CPC thing.

Rural roads is my big thing. Living in west Limerick, I know. I have got on to the council so many times. It will cut the hedges but only to a certain height. Above those areas is where the mirrors will hit the hedges, but the council is not cutting those areas. It only cuts them to suit cars and vans. I get what it costs to replace mirrors. It is a bugbear for haulage drivers.

That is a very valid point. I have a note here. The councils only pay the contractors for two passes. Am I right that it is approximately 1 m of a cut per pass? You are getting 2 m, which is exactly the Senator's point. There needs to be-----

Trucks, therefore, must go outside the white line.

It is as if there needs to be a national campaign. For one year, we should pay for four passes. The boughs are very strong and it is a big job, but it can be done. If you drive down a road and see an arch in the road, with the trees coming up as I am demonstrating, that was not done by anyone. It was done by the trucks that are passing.

That is it.

They have kept it back at their own expense. The reason roads are not fully filled in is because of all the trucks going down the road and belting back these trees.

Some of the contractors and haulage drivers pay to get the roads done themselves.

Yes.

It costs them less to get the hedge cut than to keep replacing mirrors.

I got a phone call from a representative of a hotel in Tramore. A bus arrived. It cost €2,200 to fix the mirror. It came via the back road from Dunmore to Tramore, which is narrow. The bus lost its whole arm. Does the Senator know the big arms on buses?

Yes.

The arm was ripped off its structure. I arranged to get it sorted for the company. We got the engineer from the local authority and showed him the branch that was broken. That was 18 or 19 months ago. It is still there. Nothing has happened. We are not being proactive. We are waiting for the worst to happen and then sorting it out.

We are. The RSA did a report and found that 85% of road fatalities happen on rural roads. It beggars belief that we do not look after our rural roads. The hedges are not cut, the potholes are not fixed quickly enough and there are bends. I agree that you cannot take out every bend but there are some severe bends that need to be taken out because they are black spots and have been for years.

The reason the cutting is limited to 2 m is that it is the insurance liability limit for local authorities. Above that height, it is an issue for the landowner.

It is grand to chase landowners, but you could be left chasing and chasing.

We made a simple suggestion a long time ago. If it was made a part of the criteria for whatever scheme they are in that there would be a cheque in the post, every hedgerow would be trimmed.

I agree. I see it has a massive hurdle on rural roads. I have to agree in respect of high-visibility clothing. I have had a couple of near misses and I am in a car. You have so many things to look at and to look out for. Education is required in that regard. My daughter started driving a couple of weeks ago. Before she was driving, she would just walk onto a pedestrian crossing because her attitude was, "I am a pedestrian and this is my crossing." She thought cars had to stop. When she started driving, she said to me that she would never do that again. She could understand how hard it is to see people getting onto pedestrian crossings. A car might be blocking your vision or a van might be parked at the side of a pedestrian crossing. She said she would never do that again and can see how accidents do happen. It is an education on all sides. Pedestrians need to understand.

That comes back to the point around education in school.

We need education in school. We have made points about high-visibility clothing. It must be mandatory. If you are driving a truck or bus, you have blind spots. There are vulnerable road users and pedestrians. There are bad road layouts. There are all these things to contend with.

There is also that time of the evening when the sun is coming down so low that you cannot see anything.

The same can happen early in the morning. As I said, if cyclists and people on scooters had to wear high-visibility clothing, it would make it safer.

It would make a huge difference.

It would reduce risk on the roads.

That would be instead of encountering someone wearing black pants and a black jumper on a bike and drivers being expected to see them in the distance.

Our circumstances and weather must be taken into account.

They must be. It is not like we have sun every day and we will be able to see that person. It is grey in this country for a certain number of months.

There is an argument for all road users to not be on their phones. That includes pedestrians and cyclists. Once they get off the footpath and are on the road, they must give due attention.

Yes.

The DART releases to the media reports of incidents on the service every six months and it becomes a media thing. From my observation, 70% to 80% of the incidents are the result of people walking out in front of trains while on their phones and texting.

It needs to be the responsibility of every road user, whether he or she is a pedestrian, cyclist, e-scooter user, car driver or truck driver. Everybody needs to understand that there are rules of the road. If one person does not do what he or she is supposed to be doing, that is when accidents happen. If a pedestrian walks onto the road while staring at his or her phone-----

The following is much more relevant to people in cities and the bus people. The Senator talked about what her daughter said about walking onto pedestrian crossings. There is a certain feeling of empowerment for a cyclist when he or she is in a cycle lane.

I fear cyclists in Dublin.

The entitlement gives them empowerment. Their safety goes out the window. If they cannot mind themselves, we will be forever trying to mind them and will not get there. That is where high-visibility clothing comes in so we can try to see them. It is that nonchalance. They think that they are in the cycle lane and are in the right.

They think they are in their area and can do what they want.

It does nothing for safety. One thing for sure is that if they hit a bus or truck, they will be hurt.

They will be.

I will go back to security on the buses and to Mr. McKenna and Mr. O'Connor. I am familiar with Dublin buses where there are screens. When you walk onto the bus, there is a screen and there is a bit of driver protection there. Am I right that the new buses for Dublin Bus or Bus Éireann do not have such a screen? Is that what the issue is?

No. The urban buses, those in Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford, the city and town buses, have security screens. It is an issue with the interurban coaches. These coaches are predominantly not low-floor accessible, which is another travesty. That is a manufacturing issue. They do not have built-in security screens. The manufacturer does not build them in and it is very difficult then to retrofit a screen because we cannot get certified. We are arguing with the company. Some of these buses are bought privately by Bus Éireann for the Expressway service. Others are bought by the NTA for PSO interurban services. They have no screens.

They are ordered for Bus Éireann through the NTA-----

They are, yes. The PSO ones would be ordered by the NTA.

Is it possible to get security screens on those types of buses if the NTA commissioned them with security screens?

Because of the cost of these vehicles, they have to go up on the e-portal for tender. They are above a certain level. It should be one of the criteria. If you are going to buy 50 or 100 buses, or have a framework agreement for 600 buses, they must have a protective security screen to protect drivers.

Have the witnesses both engaged with the NTA on this?

The NTA will not engage with trade unions. We have engaged with the employers, which are CIÉ and Bus Éireann, but the NTA does not engage with trade unions. That is perhaps a problem. We talked about input and information. The professional bus driver could tell you everything about cab layout, control design and even the passenger layout of vehicles. If hundreds of millions of euro of taxpayers' money are being spent on buses, why not get the best design possible? There should be some sort of forum or bus design committee where we input into the design of vehicles prior to purchase.

Absolutely. The bus driver is a key stakeholder in the design.

There is a bus design committee in Dublin Bus. They look at buses when they come in.

On what Mr. O'Connor said about Bus Éireann stating there was a glare or something, there were problems with all the buses that came to Dublin Bus when the design was changed. We had to work around it but eventually we found a screen that did work. There is no reason Bus Éireann cannot do that.

I assume the unions could write to the NTA. I acknowledge that Mr. OConnor said that it will not formally meet them, but they could write to them with the observations.

Yes, absolutely.

I am very keen to see whatever we can do in terms of driver-----

It is very critical. The upshot of this is that there are two individuals recently who, on foot of two very violent assaults, have had their careers ended. They suffered physical and mental harm and financial hardship. That is the toll. All it would have taken in those cases was a security screen and the attacker would not have been able to get the access they got.

What happened is absolutely horrendous. If somebody were actually driving the bus at the time and were attacked, that could be catastrophic for a whole area and community, for everyone on the bus, and for pedestrians and other drivers. It is really important and is something I will bring up with the NTA myself.

I will quickly move on in the limited time I have in relation to the certificate of professional competence, CPC. I met with some of the bus operators. They too raised the issue of the time lag between passing the CPC and it being issued and having to carry this hard copy. Are there any moves to have an electronic CPC? What are the witnesses experiencing the time lag to be? It needs to be addressed urgently.

On an electronic CPC, we are moving in the digital age. I do not see why one could not be designed. The technology is there. It is not reinventing the wheel. Someone just needs to sit down, think about how it would look and implement it. There would obviously be a cost to it, but it would be far more efficient. Everyone is tech-savvy these days. We can pick up a smartphone and log on nearly anywhere or order stuff. It should be easy to do.

The irony of it is drivers can go onto the portal and see that all their CPCs are up to date, but their card is not issued for another six weeks. They can look at that and it says they are up to date but they cannot drive.

They cannot drive.

Especially for anybody who has done the CPC more than twice, they are professional drivers on the road every day. They know all the nuances. It is the same book. If they are without a card for two or three weeks, it is not the end of the world, for sure. We are trying to make it more relevant and more educational for drivers, with content and better quality in it.

A directive on the digitalisation of transport, and the licence directive I mentioned, will have a digital driving licence. A digital CPC will be coming soon after, so drivers will have it on their phone. A hard copy will be available if someone wishes to have one but all the documentation, including the Department of the environment certs for trucks and trailers, will all be digital. This is in train and happening across Europe.

What is the implementation deadline for that? When will we see it in practice in Ireland?

The licence directive has been approved. It has gone through all layers of the EU Commission and the voting. It is now going through its transposing into national law. We will not see it for another 18 months to two years.

It is part of our frustration that we have not seen any evidence that the RSA is ready and preparing to go there and be upfront and ready.

Is there any indication that the Department is-----

There is no indication.

I will ask about driver behaviour. I do not think there is any cohort of road user who has not been at fault at some stage or another. How can we drive better driver behaviour?

It is education - first, second and third.

That is the key to it; and young.

Simulators could be brought in. I got into trouble in Clare when I said this on the radio one day. I said that in the gap year when young people are learning with simulators and what not, there could be an open day where they bring in granny and grandad for a bit of a refresher. When I said that, a lot of my friends had less than civility to say to me that I am in that age bracket but, in many ways, education can be flexible and introduced. It is the way.

I may not need the entire seven minutes for my slot; I am just conscious of time. I will deal with the over-70 issue, particularly as it applies to school transport vehicles. In evidence, the Road Safety Authority previously said that current policy balances the overarching need for safety with the risk and operational needs of the services provided. It also stated studies showed that risk of collision is increased for drivers of larger vehicles over the age of 70. What are the witnesses' views on that?

We have a lot of members who are part-time school bus drivers. They currently can drive up to the age of 70 but are then forced to retire. Some of these people could have five decades of driving experience. You will not find a safer driver out there. They have forgotten more than most of us will ever know about driving and they do not have accidents. They just do not have accidents. We maroon those people by saying, and it is an ageism thing, that because they have turned 70 we now think they are a higher risk. I do not think so. There are medicals. CIÉ has a longer working policy where drivers can work until 70. They are required to pass a medical from the chief medical officer, CMO, on an annual basis.

It is on an annual basis. Is that annual basis after the age of 65 or 66 or is it-----

It is after 66. People are normally under the CMO if they have illnesses up to that, but they have to undergo a medical. There is no reason that regime could not continue on post the age of 70 because we are losing critical people. These are drivers with long experience. They should not be effectively put on the scrap-heap because of their age.

Do Mr. McKenna or Mr. Weston wish to comment on that?

We have not hit the 70 mark at Dublin Bus yet; it is more a school bus thing. Once they reach 66, there are now people staying, working on and doing a medical every year. There are no issues with that.

An annual medical is provided. Do Mr. Drennan or Mr. Jackman wish to comment?

I will answer that one because I fit into the age bracket. I am 72 and took a load to Heathrow three weeks ago. I took a load when I was 70 and 71. I am still good at driving. It should be on individual basis. It is a sort of rule being imposed by people who never were in a big vehicle. The fear factor, the what-if and the maybe are pushing the agenda more than the practical fact of the ability and health condition of the person.

A term we have often heard used in the commercial world of corporate knowledge, and I concur with what was said, is that the older driver is full of knowledge. They are drivers who will not phone you endlessly during the day because they can deal with anything that is put in front of him due to their experience. In addition, the modern truck has general safety regulation, GSR, 1. GSR 2 is in and GSR 3 and GSR 4 are coming soon after. The trucks are full of technology. Even if something goes wrong for drivers, they will not hit anything. They will guide themselves in. These trucks are full of technology and are safer now than they have ever been.

I will ask about those awaiting a HGV test. I received a reply to a parliamentary question indicating that at the end of December, just under 2,600 were awaiting a test. It is interesting to see the waiting times at different test centres. The highest waiting time is extraordinary at more than 500 in Finglas. There are test centres in Limerick and Dungarvan with really high waiting times. What is the average waiting time for somebody once they apply for the test? We talk a lot, in the context of a car, of getting it down to maybe ten weeks. What is the average waiting time for somebody awaiting a HGV test?

It could come in ten weeks at times in that same bracket, but that is a long time when you are waiting to get to working and driving.

It is not the same as the car. We need flexibilities within the RSA because if they go to a remote area, they are not getting there except for perhaps once a month and the number they are allowed to test in a day is four. If there are one, two or three extra, they need to have the flexibility within the driver testing system so they can stay on or indicate they will stay on in rural areas and just test anybody who is there. They will have to come to some accommodation within their working practice.

It is about the ten-week mark. It was higher. Was it much higher?

It was higher.

It has come down. Some of the testers were reassigned to bring down the car waiting list. It is about ten weeks. I am conscious this committee will work on a report. In the context of road safety in particular, if there was one key recommendation the witnesses would like this committee to take on board, what would it be? I will ask SIPTU first.

Protected cycle lanes in that there is no crossover with the buses. Along the quays in Dublin, there are poles protecting the cycle lane just up to the cage so the bus driver has no run-in to the bus stop at all. We were talking about high visibility and all that coming down for cyclists. Cyclists are also on electric bikes now so they are going at speed. Isolate the cycle lanes - no crossing or mixing zones.

Mandatory high-vis clothing for cyclists and scooter riders. It is essential. People do not realise how hard it is to drive a large public service vehicle or a truck, be watching out and someone is in dark clothing on a dark night or dark morning, especially with these new battery-powered bikes and scooters. They are very fast. High-vis clothing will save lives.

As has been referenced, meaningful education. I would suggest possibly as part of that, on the point we made earlier about young people, engagement with the truck and bus industry to give them a sense of the dynamics of the machines.

From the earlier evidence, I will take on board what was said about rural roads. I think €1.5 billion was allocated to roads nationally yesterday. County Tipperary got €58 million but of that €1 million was allocated to low-cost safety improvement schemes. There is real scope there. Local authorities identify black spots. I saw a number of black spots identified in my constituency. There are small allocations of €50,000 or €60,000 to take out a bad bend. There is real scope in that regard. I will call Deputy Cathal Crowe next, he has been waiting patiently, and we will give the final word to Deputy Danny Healy-Rae.

I thank the witnesses for being here today. I join others in saying the people they represent are the expert drivers on the road. There are a lot of chancers weaving in and out between trucks and buses. Car driver behaviour overall has gone shockingly bad. Mr. Drennan has knowledge of large vehicle fleets but he is also a Clare resident. There is nearly a daily accident on the spine motorway that goes up through County Clare, the M18, at the moment. I have been in correspondence with An Garda Síochána, TII and the Road Safety Authority and they all have different views. Every accident has its own reasons. Is there an interpretation from the trucking industry as to why this has become far more prevalent? Is there something Irish Road Haulage Association members see that could be acted on to mitigate against this?

I referenced on Newstalk this morning that there have been at least two accidents on that road every week since September up to two days ago. The biggest black spot is between the Dromoland interchange and Shannon Airport. With Shannon improving and more tourists and a mix of traffic there, there is a big hit of traffic between 7.30 a.m. and 9.30 a.m. in low light and the bad conditions we have this weather. Those junctions should be lit up. That would take care of a considerable number of those junctions. Another thing I saw twice on that road is cars running into the back of tractors. It is something we are very hot on. It is in our proposal. A tractor is a tractor whether it is going at 50 km/h or 40 km/h. It is an agricultural vehicle, it is tested as such, it has a pick-up point and a hitch and when it is loaded, it goes slower. People cannot take in how slow it is going if the permitted speed is 100 km/h. Frequently the tractor man is just skipping from one junction to the next and stays inside the yellow line but about 2 ft out. It is lethal. Tractors should not be on motorways. They are too slow-moving. That is not hitting at the farmer or young people on tractors. Most are used either by agricultural contractors or construction contractors. Very few are farmers themselves needing to use them. They are just lethal.

As I said earlier, professional bus drivers - Bus Éireann and Dublin Bus - will tell you every bad junction, bad bend or corner from Stranorlar down to Rosslare and everywhere in between. If there was some forum where that could be input, the practical solutions would be very cheap. As I stated earlier, a yellow box-----

I have very limited time. On the last suggestion, many of us in Dáil and Seanad Éireann came through local authorities over the years. I recall that Clare County Council opened up a portal for people with disabilities to log anecdotally or with photographs as well streets where dipped kerbs, etc., were needed. Perhaps there could be a similar portal for large vehicle drivers. I know of some housing estates where the green area is just mashed because someone built a 90° junction and the buses and trucks have to cut it short. They cannot negotiate it. That is just one example. Mr. Drennan rightly mentioned tractors. I am a farmer. There are a few farmers in Leinster House. I drive a Massey Ferguson 5445. It is fine around the farmyard with great handling and great power but by God the tractors now and the speed they can do on the road. They need to drive at a certain speed because there is a bus or truck behind or ahead and cars and motorcyclists weaving in and out. They need to keep going at a certain speed just to keep the traffic flowing but with higher speed, control goes. It frightens me at times particularly during the silage season to see youngsters contracted to work in the summer months and the seat is just hopping. They do not have great control over it. If anything happens the truck, the bus and the car are more response - the tractor is not as responsive because the cab is positioned up and over the engine with the large wheels bearing onto the front wheels. It just does not slow down and stop as easily. The work programme of this committee is quite short but there should be something perhaps from the IFA stitched into our report specifically on that. When I have the tractor left at home, I cycle into the Dáil from Heuston Station. It is frightening when you are holding that position in the cycle lane and next thing a bus turns in. They are well able to drive them. I have never seen them put us at risk but for someone not used to that, it is wrong that the bus driver has to share with the cyclist and it is wrong that the cyclist has to share with the bus driver. In the city of Aachen in Germany the speed limit signs have a little module on the back so that new trucks and cars are restricted the minute they pass into the city zone to driving at that speed limit. Trucks have tachometer; they are watched day and night. It is the same with buses. For road hauliers in particular, have they seen technology overseas or good practices we should look to institute for all road vehicles?

There are different technologies but they are still at trial stage or very early on. They will come in through progression. I saw the Minister gave a response that there should be an alcohol tester so a vehicle could not start without it. That will come eventually. However, it is not for now. We need immediacy because of the statistics in Ireland and the conditions we and buses deal with. Some of the immediacy is simple remedy and we need to get a move on it. The rest is coming and it will come here.

Several of the witnesses have mentioned that they are mechanically minded. For years, vehicles have had the capacity to have speed restrictions put into them. Maybe it is time. I know the tachometer governs what the drivers can do. I do not understand it fully, but they are watched day and night, on how they drive and driver behaviour. Maybe it is time for that to be instituted into other vehicles, including regular cars on the road.

Dublin Bus is limited to 66 km/h anyway.

There is a restrictor.

Yes, there is a restrictor. They cannot do above 66 km/h. The Bus Éireann fleet cannot because they are operating on roads with higher speeds. They could not be limited to 66 km/h. There is technology. There is mobile eye collision technology and mirrorless buses. That technology is in the buses as we speak today. There is electrification of the vehicles as well.

I thank the witnesses and wish all of their drivers safe driving.

I am glad to get the opportunity. I welcome Mr. Drennan and all the lads here. It is very informative to have them here. I am not a member of the committee, but I have an interest in road haulage and the bus sector as I have been involved myself, and indeed have a licence to drive any vehicle on the road. I am very proud of that. I have tried my best to hold onto it. One of the things that drivers of large vehicles or tipper trucks have been telling me is that they are treated as if they were criminals when they get behind the wheel of the vehicle they are driving. Most often than not, if there is some kind of a skirmish or an accident, there is more scrutinising of that driver or vehicle owner. There is a number of things we all agree about regarding people with dark clothes on a wet evening and no light or reflective jacket. People are going into pedestrian crossings in busy streets, and I honestly swear they do not ever catch the eye of the driver. They do not look to see what is coming. They step out as if there was nothing coming. A lot of accidents are happening there. They are putting drivers under pressure.

Mr. Paul Jackman talked about knowing your vehicle. People who started out, like myself, with a tractor and trailer and knew what the tractor could hold back and the gear that you had to be in for the brakes to be effective. People like that have an understanding of what is behind them and what it takes to stop a vehicle at speed. I totally agree with that comment. It has to be in the right gear. Drivers use the exhaust brake to save the brakes, the linings and the disks. They are to be applauded. They are good for the vehicle and the people they are meeting on the road.

There is a number of things that I have noticed in my time. On several roads - they can be national, secondary, regional roads or whatever - the vehicle you are driving will not be inside the white line because the roads are not fit. That is a failure of the RSA. It is able to scrutinise the vehicles, the condition, the drivers and everything. It makes sure everything is in order, but the most important part it is leaving behind. It has a remit for that, whether it likes it or not. It is deviating from its responsibility when it does not look at places.

I know a place behind Blackwater Bridge. It is a national secondary road going to Sneem. There are vehicles of all kinds, including buses, using it. There is one particular bend still there. If you go around the bend with a low-loader and the tractor unit, a car can come against you and it is between the back wheel of the lorry and the front wheel of the trailer. If you have been stopped, all you can do as the driver of the lorry going toward Sneem is stop. Then the vehicle is stuck there and a load of cars are behind it and they cannot go back. Invariably they are tourists and cannot even back up. Those are the things that the RSA should be looking at.

Look at what they are doing now with this active travel. They are widening footpaths before a junction, and then the poor fella that is leaving Kenmare and going to Sneem has to go way out across the white line for it to square up and face the junction. This is called active travel. There is no need for the footpaths to be made that wide on a junction. I know the witnesses will agree with me.

The other thing I would say to the witnesses is about 70-year-old drivers. I hire school buses as well. I had to let fellas finish up - master drivers with years of experience. One thing I have asked the Minister, very reasonably, is about the fact that the bus has to finish at the end of its 20th year. Could we increase this so the driver, instead of finishing at his 70th birthday, can go out for all his 70th year? The committee might write to the relevant Ministers and ask them to consider that. It would be something anyway. It would give them most of another year. It would be another year. I must let the witnesses say whatever they will say.

In the interest of the Deputy's point, I have to confess, some people have different indulgences, but when I come to Dublin and bump into Danny Healy-Rae, it makes my day. We share a love of traditional Irish music and I love meeting him and having the chat.

To answer his main point about narrow roads, vision and what a driver can do, we dealt with it a little bit earlier on, but vision is everything. Where vision cannot be allowed, every school and village has digital signage that the school is there. It flashes and has a speed limit and says whether you are keeping to it or not. There is a really bad one in Rosenallis - a double bend in the middle of the village. There are lots of them are around the country that since they have been put up, they would flash a "Hi" or beep when a vehicle is coming against you. It is not the end of the world. It is easily available.

I thank Mr. Drennan. I am time constrained and need to bring today's meeting to a conclusion. I thank our witnesses for accepting this invitation today and for their important contributions. I worked in logistics for many years before I became a public representative, and I know full well the critical role that truck and bus drivers play in moving our economy and our communities along and the extent to which they transport essential goods, workers, students and families safely across the country every day, sometimes several times a day, but at all times operating vehicles that can be complex, and often in challenging road conditions. I fully recognise the important role they play in maintaining road safety. The committee will reflect carefully on the concerns raised. I go back to the common themes around enforcement consistency, driver testing capacity, CPC reform, infrastructure design and governance of the Road Safety Authority and other matters. Their evidence will guide and inform our ongoing work around road safety and feed into those recommendations. I thank them for their attendance.