I agree with a number of my colleagues in regard to sentencing, but I am very taken by what Senator Healy Eames said because she identified the nub of the issue, that is, the very low level of prosecutions with regard to the heinous crime of rape. Many of us were appalled by the barbarism involved in the attack on a young woman in India recently, but many of those crimes committed here are not reported or if reported they are not successfully brought to prosecution. That is an area that should be examined and I ask for a debate on it.

I noted the comments of the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Joan Burton, on radio yesterday when she was responding to the significant rally that took place in Merrion Square last Saturday where 25,000 or 30,000 protested against the forthcoming legislation with regard to abortion. She made a point which I echo, that is, that all debate in this area should be done in a respectful fashion, but she omitted a couple of words which must be added to that, namely, that it must be both respectful and truthful. I found the comment that she was unaware of anybody who wanted abortion on demand disingenuous. She does not have to look beyond members in her own party both in this and the Lower House to find them; we could name them for her if she needs them to be named. We need truth and must face up to this issue-----

On a point of order-----

-----and I ask that the Minister be invited to the House to allow us to have a good, open, honest debate on this issue rather than-----

On a point of order, I have to ask Senator Walsh to retract the last statement. It is outrageous and wrong.

What is wrong with it?

Nobody in the Labour Party is in favour of abortion on demand and to suggest otherwise is outrageous.

Senator Walsh's time is up.

I offer my condolences to the family of the late Minister of State, Deputy Shane McEntee. In the few dealings I had with him I found him to be a gentleman. I offer my condolences also to Senator Deirdre Clune on the passing away of her mother.

I support calls by Senator Darragh O'Brien for a debate on sentencing in the House as a result of what we have seen happen in recent days. It is outrageous that a girl had been raped for ten years and the perpetrator is walking the streets-----

We are not discussing individual cases.

-----while last year a man was sent to jail for failing to pay import tax on garlic. There are inadequacies in the system that we must debate.

We cannot discuss individual cases.

On the broader issue of criminal justice, in that debate we should examine an issue I raised in the House recently, namely, the availability of free legal aid to criminals. I called for a "three strikes and you are out" system here last year and I reiterate that call. It is outrageous. There is no such thing as free legal aid. The bottom line is that we are paying for it. Serial criminals should not be allowed to come back to the courts time and again having committed crime and avail of free legal aid.

We should examine also the cost of incarceration of prisoners and make them pay for it. When they are released, we should bill them for their time in jail, either by way of deductions from wages or social welfare payments, but the taxpayer should no longer foot the bill in that case.