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Seanad
‹ Order of Business

Transparency of banking measures

Summary

Senators Norris, Gilroy and Walsh debate whether the emergency banking legislation was rushed, its effect on sovereign debt and litigants, and the need to await facts from Frankfurt before judging the agreement.

David P.B. Norris Senator David Norris Independent

I am concerned about what has been happening to this country. I also wish the Minister, Deputy Noonan, well. Senator Hayden said that this measure was not rushed. I left towards the end of business yesterday; I had to make a journey. I was not informed that anything was going on here. I came back to find that emergency legislation had been pushed through the House in the early hours of the morning and that the President had had to return from Rome. If that is not rushed, I do not know what is. I may not be as informed as Senator Hayden but I have a nodding acquaintance with the English language and the meaning of its vocabulary.

This measure is transferring a debt that is not ours into sovereign debt. That means we are giving away our last card. The European Central Bank is not a sentimental organisation. As far as I am concerned, we are depending on the kindness of strangers. Frankfurt's ways can be strange ways, and there is damn all kindness about them as far as I can see. We are in the hands of loan sharks. Senator Harte was right to pick up the defective analogy my colleague, Senator Cullinane, produced. We are taking out a mortgage to pay somebody else's credit card debt. That is the rub. That is the problem. My colleague Senator Barrett - I pay tribute to his sterling performance last night - has informed me that debt as a percentage of GDP, which was 25% five years ago, is now 125%. That is the situation we are in. It is very dangerous to give away our cards when we are facing this kind of situation.

With regard to our own banks, we do not count. They are getting as arrogant as the Government. I was in the bank yesterday and given a little leaflet, which was very helpful. It appears it is good for us that the bank is changing everything around to machines. In one section there are only two human beings, and a wall of machines has replaced what was there before. We are asked to buy our own foreign currency drafts but only drafts of more than €500 in value will be available for purchase. Only international payments valued at more than €3,000 will be processed at the branch counter. The credit card facility will no longer be available at the branch counter, and payments to non-Bank-of-Ireland accounts will no longer be available at the bank's counter.

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Paddy Burke An Cathaoirleach Fine Gael

We cannot have commercials.

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David P.B. Norris Senator David Norris Independent

Allied Irish Banks is just as bad and, thank God. we have seen the last of the damned and blasted Anglo Irish Bank, which I said three years ago the Government should finish off with a quick blow. If it had done that we would not have thrown €38 billion down the drain. It has sold the past, as far as I am concerned, and I hope we will have another opportunity to debate this measure. It seems I cannot turn my back on this country for five minutes before it is sent down the tubes.

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A Sinn Féin Member stood up in the Seanad last night and complained for a full five minutes that he was only being allowed speak for two minutes.

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I understand, but it betrays a pattern of behaviour from that party that seeks to undermine the stability of our society. We saw the hysteria promoted by Sinn Féin with regard to the debate on the closure of Garda stations. We also saw a proposal from Sinn Féin in the other House questioning the independence of the Judiciary and now Sinn Féin is putting forward uneducated and ill-informed opinion about the state of debt.

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Paddy Burke An Cathaoirleach Fine Gael

We are on the Order of Business.

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Senator Norris quoted Senator Barrett as having said the debt-to-GDP ratio was at 125%. It is bad enough at 113%, which is the accurate figure, without inflating it by another 12 percentage points to make it 125%. However, Senator Barrett will agree with me that there are other metrics by which debt sustainability can be measured. One method is the debt-to-GDP ratio, but another is the sustainability and affordability of the debt. The deal that we will achieve on the promissory notes will offer relief under other measures that might not be captured when we-----

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David P.B. Norris Senator David Norris Independent

That precludes the hypothetical discussion that they are non-existent, as the Senator should know.

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Paddy Burke An Cathaoirleach Fine Gael

Senator Gilroy to continue, without interruption.

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I am calling for calm in this debate. A press conference is due to take place in Frankfurt in the next hour-----

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David P.B. Norris Senator David Norris Independent

The Labour Party capital.

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-----at which Mario Draghi will talk about the intense negotiations that have been taking place yesterday, overnight and this morning. Before we jump on our bandwagons to promote our own little agendas, whatever they may be, we might take a moment to be calm and wait for some facts to emerge before we express other opinions.

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Last night's process was far from satisfactory, but I accept there was a risk of flight for bondholders in the IBRC and, as a consequence, action needed to be taken. However, I was taken by a comment made in the Lower House by Deputy Stephen Donnelly, who asked why the Bill could not have been more narrow and focused to deal with that risk exposure, rather than extending it to other areas. I refer in particular to section 6, where it appears to me - I am not a lawyer - that a very selective approach has been taken which might be prejudicial to current and future litigants who may take action against the IBRC, now NAMA, although their continuing actions in the other direction are endorsed by the Bill. It strikes me - not to mention the ultra vires point made by Senator Barrett last night - that this makes the Bill highly susceptible to a constitutional challenge. If the Bill is successfully challenged, the risk exposure to the bondholders then becomes very focused and a reality for us. Has the liquidator appointed to this company any connection as auditor or consultant to any of the failed financial institutions? It would be regrettable if the Leader answered in the positive, which I suspect he may have to do.

Last night we copperfastened bank debt as sovereign debt. It was said last summer at IMF and EU level that the need to separate bank debt from sovereign debt was essential if countries were to recover. We have gone in the opposite direction in that, as I perceive it, that cannot happen. I was seriously concerned last night when a Government Member, whom I will not embarrass by naming him, said this was about alleviating difficult political decisions. This could be the purpose of the Bill. I understand there will be a saving of a couple of billion euro a year in interest rates as we pile the debt out and transfer it to our grandchildren and to future generations. It is not a responsible action for us to take. It is certainly not one I will subscribe to in the future, and I hope my party will not subscribe to it either.

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