I would also like to join in wishing all colleagues well for what is a well-earned summer break. We have a good deal of work to do in the autumn. I obviously could not agree with what Senator Bacik said about the passage of the Government's abortion legislation. Many people - more than those who voted against it in the Seanad - realise that this is a tragic moment for Ireland. What generally happens when abortion is legalised is that the problem does not end, it only starts. One issue on which we could all unite-----

We are not opening up yesterday's debate today.

Yes, I agree. One issue on which we could all unite in the autumn, and I ask the Leader if he would agree with me on this, is that we need a debate on how we can work together to prevent abortions from happening. We have to look out for women and children in that respect. In recent days we have had the tragic story - the detail of which I will not go into - of a woman who died in England after an abortion in a Marie Stopes clinic and the 20-week old child who died. They have to be at the heart of our concern. One matter that concerns me, in particular, was the hypocrisy of the Irish Family Planning Association - this is very relevant - which said and used the strategy-----

Has the Senator a question for the Leader?

I ask the Leader if he would agree with me that it was wrong of it to use this tragic case to make the case for legalising abortion in Ireland when in fact there are serious questions-----

Has the Senator a question for the Leader?

I am asking the Leader about the serious questions that this organisation may have to face because we know-----

What about the hypocrisy of the Iona Institute and all the lies it told-----

Senator Norris, please. Senator Mullen, all those points were made during the debate yesterday.

Let us hear it for the Iona Institute.

Senator Norris, please. Senator Mullen, all those points were made during the debate yesterday.

Here is a brief quote from a counsellor in the IFPA counselling headquarters in Dublin to illustrate why this is important:

Now there is one clinic that I would not advise you to go to ... is Marie Stopes. Don't go near them, okay? So I am not saying they are dirty or anything but we've got a lot of complaints about them, okay? I don't send anyone there, and I wouldn't. So if Abortion Support Network suggest Marie Stopes, say "No".

Senator Mullen, those points were made yesterday.

On a point of order-----

Senator Bacik, on a point of order.

Senator Mullen is persisting in making unfounded allegations against an organisation, against which he has made unfounded allegations before in this House. He should stop.

Is that a point of order?

Senator, resume your seat.

Again, we have a breach of points of order in this House.

Senator Healy Eames, please, you have indicated that you wanted to speak.

Senator Bacik is very good at doing that.

I am concluding. That was said by a counsellor in the IFPA counselling headquarters in Dublin.

Unfounded allegations.

We know that at the time this unfortunate woman died, the IFPA and other-----

Has the Senator a question for the Leader?

Yes. This is my question. The IFPA and other State-funded counsellors were advising women not to go to Marie Stopes but did they blow the whistle publicly? Did they tell the crisis pregnancy programme, did they tell the HSE or did they tell the Minister for Health?

Senator Mullen, all those points were made during the debate yesterday. The Senator is completely out of order.

It seems that if they did not do that not only are they guilty of hypocrisy-----

The Senator is completely out of order.

-----and not only may they be indirectly responsible for botched abortions that endanger women's health and lives-----

It is a Government organisation. It is a valid question.

-----but they may very well be in the criminal zone as well and be liable for gross negligence. Instead of Senator Bacik trying to-----

Is the Senator proposing an amendment to the Order of Business?

We need a debate about this in the autumn because how can we be serious about preventing abortions if State-funded crisis pregnancy counselling agencies are not putting the word out that there are concerns about Marie Stopes and other abortion providers? It is not enough to be whispering to women who come to their clinics that they should not go to Marie Stopes.

The Senator is way over time.

There is a very serious human dignity issue here.