Most people agree that Ireland is a very proud nation - a nation of great tenacity. We had to pay dearly for control of our destiny and the democracy which we have. The referendum posters in support of the abolition of the Seanad put forward as reasons for its abolition the saving of €20 million and the reduction in the number of politicians. I wonder what visitors will think if the people have actually come to that point, no matter what economic challenges we are facing. I have done a number of interviews on the subject. Last week I, together with a former senior Fine Gael Minister - a gentleman - were debating the matter. My argument was that the proposed saving of €20 million could not be substantiated, even taking into account the so-called indirect expenses, for which no evidence has been provided. He agreed quite casually that the figure of €20 million was not correct. On the subject of fewer politicians, I mentioned that prior to the last election, we were promised that there would be 20 fewer Dáil Deputies. He agreed again that this proposal was modified to a reduction of eight in the number of Deputies. If that is the essence of civilised debate on getting rid of a House of Parliament and if that is meant to reflect who we are as a people which I do not believe it does, we are in a sorry state.

Anybody suggesting getting rid of a House of the Oireachtas surely should have put forward a White Paper or a Green Paper and given us 12 months to examine the pros and cons and have a genuinely informed and focused debate. That was not done and the matter was not allowed to go to the Constitutional Convention. I will not use the word "dishonesty" but there is something very strange about the excuses given for not bringing it to the convention.

Yes.

The excuses do not stand up. Let us forget about ourselves as legislators and ask ourselves two questions. Are we treating the people in a mature manner? Is it our intention to, in some way, add insult to insult and suffering to suffering, as the Government is doing? The reason I have mentioned a White Paper or a Green Paper is that one can see, as the debate evolves and people get more information, that people are asking more questions. I know it is late in the day but that is not the fault of the people. I have said before that if one looks at the Dáil as it functions, one can see that most Members of the Dáil in all parties have been reduced to filling seats and pushing buttons.

Yes.

That is the extent of their input into the democratic system, and then they want to get rid of an oversight process that is already in place. This matter should not be about budgets and recessions but rather about respect for ourselves as a free people. All I can hope is that we will not succumb to this type of exercise because if we do so in this case, those who have brought it forward and advised the Taoiseach to do so will feel they can do it again on a future occasion. It has been a breath of fresh air to see people from the Government parties standing up at this stage. The more who do so, the greater the opportunity to give the message to the Government that our democracy is not up for barter or auction at this time.

Well played.

Who could disagree with the comments of Senator Ó Murchú who always speaks with a certain passion and true Irishness in the House which has been the hallmark of his very illustrious career in Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann, as well as in Seanad Éireann?

One of the most important pieces of information conveyed during this afternoon's Order of Business has come from Senator Landy. I welcome that the Minister, Deputy Coveney, has told us that there is definitely a plan B and that there will be Seanad reform after the referendum, assuming it does not succeed. That is a significant development. I wholeheartedly welcome the news because the vast majority of the people want to see a reformed Seanad Éireann.

I was also deeply disturbed to hear about the sacking of Ms Gemma O'Doherty. I was not aware of it. I know her and know her to be a very fine, capable, passionate and determined journalist. I am sure she will have no problem picking up alternative employment with another publication. I would like to know more about how the sacking happened and the reasons for it. She certainly drove the Fr. Niall Molloy case in recent times, an injustice of which we are all aware.

Another worrying note relates to a recent article published in The Irish Times that stated 300 individuals with severe mental health issues were committed yearly to prison. Any sane person knows that prison is not the appropriate place for somebody with severe mental health issues. I would like at some stage, perhaps in this term, if we could have a debate specifically on mental health with the senior Minister, Deputy Shatter, to get to the bottom of the bottom of the issue. We are a decent society that respects citizens and individuals and we are a society that respects individuals who are vulnerable. I am very concerned about the level of committal to prison of people with a severe mental illness. I want the matter investigated and debated in the House. The Seanad has always fought for the underdog, the citizens who are vulnerable. I would like the plight of this group of vulnerable citizens highlighted and would welcome a debate on it very sincerely.