I join my colleague, Senator Darragh O’Brien, in mentioning the revelations in the past 24 hours on health insurance. In anybody’s mind - following on from what Senator Colm Burke has said in recent weeks about the discourse on health being quite personalised against the Minister - it is simply impossible to ignore the calamity that appears to be the health service in terms of its funding. On the one hand, we are seeking to introduce, for the most wealthy in the country, free GP health care for those aged under five while on the other, we are screwing the coping classes to the wall by continually hitting them and expecting them to pony up more.

The cost for a family with two children for a year will be approximately an extra €328. Since 2009 the health levy has risen by 149% for an adult and 155% for a child. As Senator Darragh O'Brien said, we have had the CEOs of three major hospitals say they are beyond capacity and at breaking point. We have had €150 million in cuts to primary care, which has arguably contributed to the 10% rise in the number of people using accident and emergency departments. All of this comes against a backdrop in which the Minister is saying there will be free GP care for all by 2016 and then universal health care. It is worth noting that some academics are now saying universal health care is not the way to go. If people can afford to pay, I, for one, would like them to pay. I do not want multimillionaires to be subsidised by people who have nothing. I do not want multimillionaires to have free GP care for their children.

There is no wish to personalise this issue against the Minister. I do not doubt the man's commitment in wanting to do a better job, but the reality is that even a cursory look at the health service would give people the impression it was a complete headless chicken, a calamity and a major problem. Anybody who suggests otherwise is reminiscent of that Iraqi leader who said they were fully in control and winning the war when the tanks were outside the studio.

Noel Dempsey and Dermot Ahern, was it?

There must be a way to discuss what is actually going on.

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Frankly, the question could not be clearer. Who is running the health service? How much is it going to cost? From where is the money coming? Why is middle Ireland constantly being screwed to the wall?

I believe the name given to the Iraqi was Chemical Ali. Maybe he was referring to the gentlemen who were previously standing outside Government Buildings saying everything was okay. I think they were the Chemical Alis of the time.

There is a new Chemical Ali now.

Is the Senator identifying himself?

Does Senator have a question for the Leader?

I agree with the call for a debate on the private health system. As has been noted, VHI welcomed the move by the Minister while the other companies were critical. There is a play going on between the different private companies-----

Of course, there is.

It is because we are all subsidising VHI and there is no competition because it is being run by the Government.

Senator Jimmy Harte to cotinue, without interruption.

A debate is needed on the whole health insurance system. Some of us were in Taiwan last January as part of a delegation. Taiwan has a similar system to ours, with both public and private services, but there were no waiting lists in Taiwan. We asked them why this was so and they said it was because the system there worked more efficiently. I believe the system can work efficiently if it is taken control of. During the years VHI was obviously a company that was, as the Senator said, subsidised by the taxpayer. There is now a competitive market and I believe market forces will come into play.

As a speaker on the other side of the House said, there are those who can afford expensive health insurance and others who cannot. We are moving to a system under which those who can afford private health care will pay for it, as they do in the United States. We are happy to have a debate on this issue but Members should not forget what happened to the health service under the last Government. The leader of the Fianna Fáil party was the Minister for Health and Children, although I do not want to rehash that argument. There is a storeroom out there somewhere filled with reports signed at the bottom by Deputy Micheál Martin.

What is the Senator's point?

That is an outrageous comment.

Senator Jimmy Harte is over time.

Deputy Micheál Martin does not read reports.