Will the Leader organise a debate on the seven reports published yesterday by the National Board for Safeguarding Children in the Catholic Church in Ireland? The debate should focus not just on reporting mechanisms in the past and the severe failures among religious orders and dioceses in that regard, but how they treat survivors of abuse now. They are survivors, as many people, because of the abuse they suffered and the cover-ups by the religious orders involved, took their own lives.

I would also like to have a debate on the report on the Christian Brothers and their current attitude towards survivors of abuse. They are continuing to abuse survivors. The way they treat them in the legal system is nothing short of abuse. Last month, there was a case in which the Christian Brothers admitted 450 different counts of abuse. They employed two senior counsels and two junior counsels and dragged the survivor in question through the High Court for four days, not contesting that abuse took place but fighting the amount of compensation the victim would get. Not only did they do this, but they also employed one of the most reputable - if one could use that word in this case - but notorious criminal lawyers in the State, who defends murderers, rapists and drug dealers.

Every person is entitled to a defence for whatever crime he or she may have committed. That is part of natural justice, so I advise the Senator to be careful in the words he uses. He cannot cast aspersions on people who are-----

I am just saying he is one of the best criminal defence lawyers in the country.

At the same time, whether he defends a multimillionaire or a criminal-----

Or a rapist.

They are all entitled to a defence.

Absolutely.

Until such time as somebody is convicted, he or she is innocent and is entitled to that presumption.

It is not a criminal case but a civil case.

Senator Daly is trespassing further than is allowed so he should be very cúramach. He is well over his time as well.

I beg the Leas-Chathaoirleach's indulgence on this. The question the Christian Brothers and other orders must ask themselves is what Christ would do, what the Pope would do. When the Pope took the name of St. Francis he did so because he said, "Where there is darkness let us bring light, where there is despair let us bring hope." The Christian Brothers are bringing neither hope nor light but aggressively challenging cases.

Senator Daly's time is up and I have been very indulgent to him.

When the Leader organises that debate maybe he would invite the Christian Brothers in, some of whom appeared on RTE last night, Brothers Gibson and Mullan-----

The Senator has named people. Please resume your seat and do not name people here again. You are not entitled to name people in this House.

I am asking that the head of the Christian Brothers-----

I have ruled. Do not make matters worse.

I am asking that they be invited here for the debate.

You are totally out or order. Suí síos anois.

Absolutely. I ask the Leader to invite the head of the Christian Brothers here for the debate.

Resume your seat. I have been more than indulgent.

Thank you, a Leas-Chathaoirligh.

Do not fly low shots against me. It is not your first time. It is most unfair against the House and the people you are naming. It is disgraceful behaviour by somebody who should know better.

The Leas-Chathaoirleach was over-indulgent and lenient with the preceding speaker. I will not go down that road except to agree that to indicate who an individual is by saying he or she is notorious by virtue of the defence he or she has been asked to give to somebody, is totally out of order.

I have already ruled on it so do not rub salt into my wounds.

They are not the Leas-Chathaoirleach's wounds. I totally support the Chair.

Carry on.