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Seanad
‹ Order of Business

Attorney General and justice controversy

Summary

Senators clash over Fianna Fáil’s request for the Attorney General to attend the House concerning Garda phone recordings and wider justice controversies. Government supporters accuse Fianna Fáil of political opportunism, while Senator O’Brien rejects that charge and says the Attorney General has questions to answer.

On behalf of Fianna Fáil, I pass on condolences to Senator John Kelly on the sad death of his father. I also pay tribute to the late former Senator Sam McAughtry and pass on my sympathy and that of the Fianna Fáil group to his family. On another occasion we will have an opportunity to make full expressions of sympathy.

The ongoing controversy regarding the Government, the Department of Justice and Equality, the Attorney General and the Taoiseach is spiralling absolutely out of control. The datelines given by the Government and the statements made by the Taoiseach, the Minister for Justice and Equality, the former Garda Commissioner and the Attorney General, Marie Whelan, do not tally. Forget about whether my party has a motion of no confidence in the Minister, Deputy Alan Shatter, in the other House, the public is entitled to know what is really going on. The only people who can answer this question are the Minister, the Attorney General and the Taoiseach who last week effectively sent Mr. Brian Purcell to sack the Garda Commissioner.

There are many questions that remain outstanding. The Attorney General who sits at the Cabinet table and is a member of the Government has questions to answer and could bring clarity to the situation. Effectively, she was aware of the illegal recordings at a number of Garda stations since 11 November 2013. Are we to believe she never informed either the Minister for Justice and Equality or the Taoiseach in the four month period to Monday, 24 March? I do not believe this and the general public does not believe it either. How many meetings did the Attorney General attend in the intervening period and why did she not raise the issue at the Cabinet or separate meetings with the Minister for Justice and Equality? Are we to believe, when we know the former Garda Commissioner, Martin Callinan, had a close relationship with the Minister, that none of this was ever mentioned in conservation between the two of them? The Attorney General has claimed she intervened by stopping the recordings from being destroyed. When did she make this known to the Government? Does she at the Cabinet table and say nothing? There are many unanswered questions on the role of the Attorney General in this saga.

With that in mind, I propose an amendment to the Order of Business that, under Standing Order 56, the Attorney General come to the House to answer questions that my colleagues and I have because the current controversy has brought into question the management of the justice system; the management of the Cabinet; the role of the Attorney General and the communication between Departments. I will not refer to a specific case that has been mentioned in the media in deference to the Cathaoirleach, but the Attorney General has been asked to come to the House to answer questions. This is the correct forum for the Attorney General as a member of the Government to answer the very serious questions raised in order that the general public can have confidence in the justice system.

Personally, I do not have confidence in the Minister for Justice and Equality; neither do my colleagues. Nearly two years ago I tabled a motion of no confidence in him. The current controversies lead me to believe I was correct back then.

I ask the Leader to accept my amendment to the Order of Business and schedule time for the Attorney General to answer questions in the House under Standing Order 56. We wish to put these and other questions to her on her management and the reason she did not inform the Government of these very serious allegations and findings of fact when she became aware of them in November 2013. We will have other questions to put to the Secretary General, Mr. Purcell, in due course. The Attorney General is a member of the Government and answerable to Members. I, therefore, call on the Leader to ask her to come to the House. I formally propose an amendment that under Standing Order 56 the Attorney General come to the House to answer questions in this regard.

Comment on this

I had wished to speak about the recently published crime figures, but Senator Darragh O'Brien's speculation and dramatisation of events require that I comment. While his remarks add to the political tension, they shed no light. It is now 2.45 p.m. and he has requested that the Attorney General come to the House today-----

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She may come tomorrow.

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In accordance with the amendment proposed to the Order of Business, the Senator is insisting that she come to the House today.

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As I raised the matter last week, the Attorney General has been on notice.

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Paddy Burke An Cathaoirleach Fine Gael

Senator John Gilroy to continue, without interruption.

Comment on this

It is obvious that Senator Darragh O'Brien has no interest in pursuing the issue of the Attorney General coming to the House.

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The Attorney General has a lot of questions to answer.

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From his point of view it makes more sense to try to catch "Oireachtas Report" and in the great Fianna Fáil tradition to be seen trying to do something when it really does not want to do it.

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Not at all; it is more important that she answer the questions asked.

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Paddy Burke An Cathaoirleach Fine Gael

Senator John Gilroy to continue, without interruption.

Comment on this

If it was a real and serious proposal that the Attorney General come to the House today, she would have been given notice and it would have been scheduled for tomorrow or Thursday. I am loath to refer to it, but it brings the procedures of the House to a new low and shows indecency that the Fianna Fáil Party is using the circumstances of the death of a Member's father, at a time when Labour Party Senators are not present, to propose that the Attorney General be brought to the Seanad.

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Paddy Burke An Cathaoirleach Fine Gael

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

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On a point of order, Senator John Gilroy should know me better than that. I would not, in 1 million years, dream of capitalising on someone's bereavement.

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Paddy Burke An Cathaoirleach Fine Gael

That is not a point of order.

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I can assure the Senator that if it goes to a vote, Senator John Kelly will be paired. I ask the Senator to withdraw that remark.

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Paddy Burke An Cathaoirleach Fine Gael

Does Senator John Gilroy have a question for the Leader?

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I do not propose that Senator Darragh O'Brien take this personally. I do not intend it as a smear on him. He is a decent, honourable Senator-----

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He was paired with Senator Terry Leyden.

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-----but I am saying this is an opportunistic move on behalf of Fianna Fáil which I find-----

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David P.B. Norris Senator David Norris Independent

What about the Cathaoirleach? Is he opportunistic also?

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I can only call what I see here and that is what I do.

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Paddy Burke An Cathaoirleach Fine Gael

As does the Cathaoirleach.

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He is paired with Senator Terry Leyden.

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Paddy Burke An Cathaoirleach Fine Gael

Does Senator John Gilroy have a question for the Leader?

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I do not intend to withdraw the remark. I am going to leave the remark stand because we are asked to consider this as just a coincidence and it is far from that.

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What is the Senator talking about? That is absolute rubbish.

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