We had a good debate last night with the Minister of State at the Department of Finance on the spring economic statement. I reiterate the call I made yesterday to the Leader for a more comprehensive debate not just on quarterly economic statements but also on how the country will proceed in the next five to ten years and how any excess money will be spent. It has been announced that there may well be between €1.5 billion and €1.8 billion in additional moneys available in the forthcoming budget. It has been reported in the newspapers today that the Government may allocate around €300 million of this money to the public sector in increased pay. The public sector plays a crucial and fundamental role in the operation of the State, but it would be wrong for the Government in the lead up to a general election to try to use any surplus money like confetti at a wedding in providing money for public servants without any increase in productivity, efficiency or the effectiveness of public sector organisations across the board. That has not happened. The old saying goes, "Never waste a recession". The Government keeps using the mantra that it will not do things in the way they were done in the past, but it is doing them in exactly the same way. It comes down to keeping the trade union movement which funds the Labour Party happy.

Not true.

That is wrong. The morale of public servants is at an all-time low and a pay increase of 2% or 3% will not resolve that issue. There will have to be meaningful reforms to include scorecard systems whereby every individual plays a role in ensuring the future of public service organisations. When rolled out originally in the 1980s in Sheffield by the NHS, it was called the balanced scorecard system. Under the scheme, every individual in the public sector has an equal input in ensuring the future of an organisation.

Did the late Margaret Thatcher do it?

In Ireland the only input is made from the top. Other public servants have no input; they are asked to follow orders, even though those orders have not been properly scrutinised. Public servants lower down the chain know that things are not being done right. Politicians talk about reform as if it was something new, but there has been no actual reform. A best practice model is not being introduced either. We are going to reward inefficiencies, while ignoring the need for real reform and to lift morale across the public sector. It is a missed opportunity.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill started very well, but the more he spoke the more he went astray. I agree with him, however, that we had a good and useful debate last night with the Minister of State, Deputy Simon Harris. The truth is we did not have enough time in two hours. As the Senator suggested, we should have an ongoing debate in this regard. I sat close to the Minister of State for two hours and saw that he was being attentive and taking copious notes on what every speaker was saying. When he came to respond, however, and as the Leader saw, he did not have time to deal with half of the matters that had been raised.

Is the Senator blaming the Leader for it?

With respect, Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill went totally astray in his comments on the public sector. We know that we have 10% fewer staff in the public sector since the Government took office, but there has also been an increase in productivity, including under the Haddington Road agreement. As regards the talks the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin, is opening up with the unions-----

Fine Gael is agreeing with the Labour Party.

No, we are not, but, of course, the Government will act in unison, as we all respect the constraints within which we must operate. Anything that will happen as the result of fruitful engagement in the talks will be quite modest and might not happen until much later in the year. Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill started well and I agreed totally with the first part of his comments, but, with due respect to him, he then went astray. We could usefully schedule a debate in early course to resume the discussion on these matters.