I have spoken on the Defence Forces many times in the House. It pained me to walk through the gate of Leinster House this morning to find that the wives and partners of members of the Defence Forces would be camping outside for the next 24 hours. We must get a grip on what is happening. I will not criticise the Minister or anyone this morning. It just pains me to see what is going on outside the gate. These women left their children this morning, and the men who are out there with them left their families this morning, to travel here and spend 24 hours outside the gate. They are doing it to underpin the miserable terms and conditions of employment that we give to members of the Defence Forces. Some 4,500 members have walked out in seven years. We have no strategy for retention. We have no strategy for pay. We have no strategy for recruitment. Recruits are coming in one gate and going out the other.

I do not know how to solve the problem. I spoke on the issue of homelessness a couple of weeks ago in the Chamber. As with that, we cannot solve the problem simply by knocking lumps out of one another. We must find a way to work together on this.

On a point of information for my colleague, we are recruiting to the Army. It has been recruiting.

We have one Leader and we will let him make a response.

We give a good service. Senator Craughwell can speak with my assistant here.

The unfortunate thing about recruitment is that, as quickly as people are joining, they are leaving.

The Senator does not even acknowledge that there is recruitment.

Allow Senator-----

The Leader will have plenty of time to have a crack at me when he gets to his feet.

Will the Senator be factual, though?

I am being factual.

Leader, please let Senator Craughwell finish. His time is up.

Recruits are coming in and leaving before they finish their training. It is a fact.

That is normal.

That always happens.

Listen. The Senators are talking to the wrong guy now.

I am not.

Through the Chair. Allow the Senator to conclude his point. The Leader can then respond.

There are always people who leave during training. The Senator knows that full well. He is misleading the House.

Leader, you will have ample time.

Why is it that the Leader always feels he has to interject when he will get ten minutes-----

When the Senator misleads the House.

No. That is not-----

The Leader will get half an hour when this is finished to have a crack at everybody.

Please, Senator. I am trying to protect you. Leader, you made the strong statement that Senator Craughwell was misleading the House. Senator Craughwell has no intention of doing that. Please, allow him to conclude. You are only delaying the process.

He is telling the truth.

I am. Thanks for saying that.

No. Senator Craughwell is telling the truth.

Senator Wilson, no foreign stations butting in, please. Senator Craughwell, please conclude.

If I may conclude,-----

Thanks for your support for the Army.

He is telling the truth.

Please, allow Senator Craughwell to conclude.

The truth of the matter is that recruits are walking out in droves. We have to do something. What is happening with the Garda is in the full glare of the public eye. What is happening in the Defence Forces is hidden behind closed doors. We have bought massive ships but do not have crews to sail them. We are discussing replacing or improving the armoured personnel carrier, APC, fleet but we will not have drivers to drive them. We do not have bomb disposal specialists. The Defence Forces form the second pillar of the security of the State. Unless we take a grip of this situation, we will have no Defence Forces in a couple of years' time. The Taoiseach is the de facto Minister. He has to take responsibility now.