We use Google Analytics to see which pages are read and how the site is used, so we know what to improve. This only runs if you accept. See our privacy notice for details.

Seanad
‹ An tOrd Gnó - Order of Business

Children's hospital cost overrun

Summary

Senator Ardagh condemns the runaway costs and alleged delay in disclosing the national children's hospital overrun, and seeks a ministerial explanation. Other Senators largely back her call for accountability.

I welcome two transition year students, Jamie Cunningham and Niamh Sargent, to the Visitors Gallery.

I rise to my feet today to express my anger and disappointment at the runaway costs of the national children's hospital. Yesterday, we learned that the Minister for Health learned about the cost overrun in August 2018 but only shared that information with the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance in December 2018. They are now looking to hide behind a consultant's report to seek some kind of shelter from the political ramifications of this matter. I do not agree with the timeline. I am on record as supporting this hospital. However, I draw the attention of the House to a day nearly two years ago when I sought to amend the Order of Business in order to call the Minister to the House. We were successful and a Minister came to the House. The reason we sought to divide the House that day was so that the Minister could explain comments made by the then director general of the HSE, Mr. Tony O'Brien, who questioned the viability of the project's cost at that time. That was two years ago. I forced a vote that day despite the efforts of the Leader and other Senators to prevent one.

Notwithstanding that vote, which I called on foot of serious questions raised by Mr. Tony O'Brien about the finances and funding of the hospital at that time, the Minister did not attend the House but instead sent his Minister of State, Deputy Catherine Byrne, to reaffirm the Government's commitment to the project. What is absurd and what has struck a chord with me is that after the former director general's misgivings about the funding of the hospital, neither the Minister nor his Minister of State, Deputy Catherine Byrne, made an effort at that time to control the extraordinary spending when they were quite clearly aware of it. In fact, this House divided on the matter at that time, and it is rare for this House to divide, especially when it comes to the Order of Business.

However, on that day, the Minister did not attend the House and he called on his Minister of State, Deputy Catherine Byrne, to attend in his stead. To remind those who were not present, I will read what the Minister of State said in order that we are all aware of the Government's position on the children's hospital on 8 February 2017, almost two years ago to the day. She said:

We are not on a runaway train. We are at a critical point with the national children's hospital. The Minister has pointed out that the cost increase is 5% of the overall projected cost. It is important to keep that in mind. Every last cent should be extracted. The people who will pay for the national children's hospital are the taxpayers. Therefore, we do not have the right to exceed limits. There must be limits and we have to adhere to those that are in place.

That is what the Minister of State said at the time. It is clear not only that alarm bells rang for the Minister in August 2018, but also that he sent the Minister of State to this House to address issues on which we divided. It is scandalous that at the time he did not make efforts to ensure this project was kept on budget. It is disgraceful. I ask that the Minister be called to the House today to explain what actions he took after he sent the Minister of State, Deputy Catherine Byrne, to this House in February 2017, not 2018. I propose an amendment to the Order of Business.

Comment on this
David P.B. Norris Senator David Norris Independent

What amendment?

Comment on this

I propose that the Minister attend the House to explain why he misled this House in 2017.

Comment on this

While I do not disagree with anything Senator Ardagh said, I am conscious that the Minister for Health is before the Joint Committee on Health this morning and, to be fair to him, he is answering the questions asked of him. I went in to listen for a while earlier. All parties are represented on the committee, both from Seanad Éireann and Dáil Éireann. Good, constructive work is going on in the committee and that is important.

I support the nurses in their ongoing dispute and we will have doctors outside the Houses of the Oireachtas today. We have the ongoing scandal of the national children's hospital. There comes a point when politicians have to stop bellyaching and do something about it. This Administration is propped up by Fianna Fáil and the Independent Alliance. Either we have an election or we do not. What is it that politicians on all sides in both Houses fear about going before the people in a general election?

Comment on this

I fully appreciate everything Senator Ardagh said and I do not disagree with her. However, there comes a point where politicians have to step up to the plate. One cannot continue to prop up an Administration that one does not believe in. It is one thing to go on "Prime Time" and various political programmes and say one has a problem with an issue but members of the public are asking what is going on in Leinster House. This Administration is doing a lot of good things and has a programme for Government, which we have concerns about from time to time. It is incumbent on all who support and prop up this Administration to take a deep look inside themselves and their political organisations and if they are not happy, they should either put up and shut up or pull the plug and have a general election.

Comment on this

I echo the phrase "put up or shut up". The blatant incompetence, unaccountability and recklessness exposed by the national children's hospital debacle merely displays the inability of the Government, carried by Fianna Fáil, to provide the necessary governance and oversight to deliver infrastructure projects such as this one. Now we have the familiar cover-up and defending of the indefensible. Once again, people are being asked to turn a blind eye. There is nothing to see here, it is all par for the course. We are expected to believe that from the time concerns were raised about the €61 million costs overrun at meetings of the steering group held between August 2017 and April 2018 until the meeting in August 2018 of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board which discussed a €200 million overrun, the Minister for Health, Deputy Harris, was not informed. The Minister says he was first told on 27 August 2018. Thereafter, there was no rush or urgency and the Ministers for Health and Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputies Harris and Donohoe, respectively, then became aware of the €1.4 billion construction figure in November 2018. The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform says he became aware on 9 November. There is all that time between August and November and despite this being the biggest health project we have ever had, nobody saw fit to discuss this matter or to bring it anywhere. That was while detailed budget discussions were taking place between Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael. Did nobody in those parties ever inquire as to the financial status of the largest health project in history? Fianna Fáil is now crying crocodile tears after the horse has bolted. It had such blind confidence in its bedfellows. One can only be astonished at its complete trust and unwavering loyalty that it did not even question the figures.

Yesterday, I asked the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Donohoe, if he would re-examine the procurement model that has failed us time and again. In spite of having nine different internal and external reports carried out on corporate governance or internal financial controls in the past two years, it is obvious that nothing has been learned. In recent times, we have had the national broadband plan debacle and the Carillion debacle as a result of which dozens of small and medium businesses lost millions because proper due diligence was not carried out before the contract was awarded. Again, there was blind loyalty to KPMG and its ruling on Carillion.

My colleague, Deputy Brady, raised again yesterday an issue we have been raising for two years concerning the JobPath scheme, namely, the payment of €149 million of taxpayers' money with very little return to private companies to provide a service already provided by State-funded organisations. I include all citizens in this because everybody pays tax in this country. How long can we go on wasting money? How long will this Government and Fianna Fáil continue to write blank cheques for selected projects while, at the same time, we have to beg for hospital beds so critically ill patients can get vital chemotherapy and other treatment? This is happening while elderly and disabled people are told they are not worth a full hour of home care and they have to make do with a half hour or take their place on the list. In addition, young children wait every day for vital drugs such as Translarna and Spinraza to enable them to function and Valproate victims are ignored.

Comment on this
Paul Coghlan An Leas-Chathaoirleach Fine Gael

The Senator is well into injury time.

Comment on this

Once again, we can just pull half a million euro out of the hat for PwC to examine where it all went wrong. How does the Government think such people feel when they witness such scandalous waste? I can tell the Leader they are enraged beyond words. Will he arrange for both Ministers to come into the House to answer questions on this matter?

Comment on this