As there are no other speakers offering, I call on the Leader to respond.

I dtús báire, cuirim fíorfháilte go dtí an Teach roimh an Uasal John O'Sullivan agus roimh na banaltraí. In welcoming the nurses - a number of Senators mentioned this issue - we must be careful in the context of the rhetoric we use. Senator Marshall spoke about the use of language. It is important to recognise a number of points. First, there is a need for dialogue and engagement. The Government is committed to reaching a resolution on the issue. The Workplace Relations Commission is the forum at which a resolution can be found. I am endeavouring to have the Minister come to the House. As Members will appreciate, he appeared before the Joint Committee on Health and in the Dáil yesterday and this morning. It will be difficult to get him to come to the Seanad today but we will endeavour to have him before us early next week.

Is Senator Gavan, as a trade unionist, really saying that there be a free-for-all in respect of public sector pay?

I never said that.

The inference of his argument is that there should be a free-for-all.

No, it is not. The inference is that the ICTU is clear there is the scope to do this.

The Senator repeatedly fails to recognise that we have employed 3,800 more nurses and that pay restoration is continuing for public servants across the board. We are paying €1.5 billion per month in the form of public sector pay. That is €17 billion per year. If one was to accept Senator Gavan's argument and that of his party, we would be spending in excess of that. We cannot have a free-for-all. As a trade unionist, Senator Gavan knows full well that we have a public sector pay deal and that, collectively and individually, we must respect, appreciate and value that deal.

I know full well that the deal has the scope to cater for the nurses.

I thank the Senators

What Senator Gavan fails-----

The Leader will have to change his tune by Monday.

I will not. With respect, what the Senator, as a trade unionist, will have to do is look at what the Public Sector Pay Commission had to say in respect of the €20 million relating to the cost of recognition of qualifications and allowances-----

Recruitment and retention are catered for in the agreement.

It is funny, in the context of the arguments being put forward-----

Senator Gavan should show a little respect and allow the Leader to continue.

Are those who have been commenting on public sector pay really saying that there should be a free-for-all?

Senator Grace O'Sullivan's party was in government and understands what collective bargaining is. Does Senator Gavan want us to go back and have individual unions negotiating? Does he want to go back to the days of benchmarking and what happened with that?

The Leader can discuss that issue outside the Chamber. We cannot have the discussion here.

On a point of order, while the Leader knows I respect him, he is saying things I never said.

I said the-----

I was very clear that there is scope in the agreement.

The record will show who said what, with respect.

I referred to the import and the inference of the argumentation, if Senator Gavan wants to listen to it. We know what the voodoo economics of Sinn Féin stand for.

Get a new cliché.

It was the truth. Sinn Féin has not changed its tune.

The Senator refers to voodoo economics. What about the national children's hospital?

Is Senator Gavan saying to the people of Ireland that we should not build the national children's hospital?

I did not say that.

I put that question on the Order of Business the other day. There were three options facing the Government and Senator Gavan has not answered any of them.

The Leader should not-----

The level of populism in this House-----

It is bad public policy.

Senators should not address questions to one another across the floor on the Order of Business.

There is no maternity hospital co-located beside the children's hospital. It is a disgrace.

I welcome the responses-----

I ask for responses without being argumentative.

Senator Buttimer is arguing against himself. It is a historic day for me and Senator Mullen.

That is what worries me.

I have been listening to all of the Senators. I ask the Leader not to encourage any further interruptions.

It is important that the record shows-----

The Leader can show the record.

When I come to another part of the Order of Business, the Leas-Chathaoirleach will stand with me. It is important that the Order of Business reflects the facts. Whatever else we do, let us engage in facts, not populism and scaremongering. Let us be clear about that. Senator Gavan and other speakers did not say there has been an increase in pay for public servants.

I said that.

Senator Gavan has never said that.

I will say it now.