Can I ask the Senator to repeat, please?

Do, please.

I am not claiming to be any better than everybody else.

Without interruptions, please, for Senator Mullen.

We all need to be consistent, and I point that finger at myself as well.

I wish that the Senator was consistent.

The Leader will have an opportunity to respond in a few minutes.

It is interesting how sensitive the Leader is, even when he is not being addressed himself on this issue.

I will answer when I get up.

Order, please.

It makes me wonder what his private thoughts on some of these matters actually are.

The Senators are eating into each other's time.

I want to pay tribute to the absolute common sense of Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell, where she mentions the proposed reforestation of Ireland on a scale not seen since ancient times. This is something I raised, not yesterday but on the previous occasion, albeit not so much in respect of forestry. In the previous climate debate we had with the Minister, I spoke about very ambitious targets being put willy-nilly into the proposals to prevent the worst excesses of climate change. I spoke about the targets to have a certain million number of electronic cars by a certain date. I raised the same issue that Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell is raising, which is that if there is no relationship between goals and their achievability, that is, if one sets unachievable goals for people, the whole process is brought into disrepute. A signal is sent out that what one is really doing is box-ticking for the sake of some other authority in order that something looks good on paper. That might satisfy campaigners who are interested in virtue signalling around climate but it is no way to lead the public towards change that is needed. There must be honesty about what is achievable and one cannot be setting targets that look ridiculous on paper or are ridiculous in reality as one then brings the whole process into disrepute.

Somewhat in the same vein, I want to pick up what has been said in respect of our policy on asylum seekers and economic migrants, which was something that I had intended to speak on yesterday but because of the tributes to Gay Byrne, I decided to wait until today. Senator McDowell made some prophetic references yesterday to what is in his article in The Irish Times today. He is absolutely right to insist upon a distinction between asylum seekers and people who are fleeing poverty. To do so is not to evince any lack of sympathy for those who are seeking to escape poverty or to suggest that we should do nothing to help such people, it is simply to say that distinctions matter.

Absolutely.

If we do not talk honestly about distinctions or if we accuse those who make such distinctions of in some way seeking to subvert a policy of generosity and support for people from other lands who need to come to our shores in various different situations, then what we are really doing is serving our own selfish political ends by seeking to be more virtuous than the other in this debate.

I thank the Senator.

Part of what is going on here in our country is that in the absence of a perceived unifying source of moral authority, people are competing to be the most moral in the group. The danger of that is that we will not get to the solutions that we need.

Or to the facts.

I have always said that we need to have a structured policy towards immigration. That includes reaching out, not just to those who can come to our shores who have particular skills who may not be asylum seekers and obviously have the first claim, but also to people who do not necessarily have skills that we are desperately clamouring for, as part of some programme of structured migration as an act of solidarity with those in the developing world.

I thank the Senator.

Hear, hear.

I believe we are going to have a debate on the matter.

Countries that have a colonial history have greater responsibilities but Ireland should be seen to lead the way in that regard. I absolutely support Senator McDowell when he calls to account those who have tackled the Taoiseach in recent days. He was doing no more than stating facts.

Yes, the facts.

If we cannot have facts discussed, we cannot solve problems.

We have the fairy tales of Ireland.

I will stand with him on that point, even if I end up disagreeing with him on the substantial policy.

The Senator cannot discuss this matter in detail on the Order of Business where everybody is allowed two minutes. I gave the Senator latitude because he was interrupted.

I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach who has been most tolerant.

It was two minutes-----

I was interrupted by-----

-----where there is one item for everybody, and two items for the Leaders. I finally call on the Leader to respond.