Good man.

On a more serious note, the recent horrific attack and mass murder of people in St. Francis Catholic Church in the Owo district of Ondo in Nigeria should horrify us all. We must have a debate in this House about the persecution of people for their faith worldwide, in particular the horrifying attacks that are going on against Christians in Nigeria.

I took part in a very interesting discourse of politicians from around Europe the other evening with Bishop Jude Arogundade of that diocese of Ondo in Nigeria, Fr. Joseph Bature of Maiduguri and Fr. Remigius Ihyula of Makurdi, all of which are areas where Christians are under attack. It will be known that the Bishop of Ondo noted that the first two bishops of his diocese were Irish. He had responded to President Higgins's recent comments on the atrocity and he very much welcomed President Higgins doing as he did before and condemning the atrocity, in particular the fact it took place in a place of worship. What the President had to say in the same statement about not scapegoating pastoral peoples who are victims of climate change was not so well received.

The Senator knows the tradition in the House in terms of the separation of powers, so I just want to be guided by that.

I understand that. The Cathaoirleach might stop the clock for a moment as I want to make a point of order on that. I have no intention of criticising the President and I have no intention of seeking to hold the President to account, but it must be possible to say in this House on occasion “agree with this” or “don't agree with that”. If we lose the power to do that, we lose the power to be Senators. We need to talk about that. I do not mind the Cathaoirleach interrupting because I know he does it in the best of faith and he has his job to do. We must get clarity on that point at some point. I am not going to launch into an attack on President Higgins but if we cannot mention something in passing, even to enlighten and give context, while The Irish Times can, it makes a nonsense of what we are about. We really do need to get to the bottom of that.

In fairness, the Senator makes a valid point. There was a discussion yesterday on a different issue regarding the President, of which I am sure the Senator is aware. That was in the newspapers and Members did discuss it and they were careful in their comments. I am only asking the Senator to also be careful.

I understand. I will bí cúramach. However, we probably need to get the Committee on Parliamentary Privileges and Oversight, CPPO, to decide how we interpret Standing Orders in a way that is rational so we do not have unnecessary obstacles here to reasonable context giving.

That is a valid point. We will bring it up at the next meeting of the CPPO.

I will work on that from my side. To return to my point, part of the President's comment was very welcome and part of his comment the bishop described as far-fetched and unhelpful. When I spoke to the bishop, he was very generous about President Higgins and said “I do not really blame him.” However, the Nigerian Government is pushing an analysis that seeks to portray these atrocities as happening in the context of disputes between tribal people over land. As the bishop pointed out, every month Catholic priests are being kidnapped and it costs a fortune to ransom them back. It is not happening to imams. There are, of course, issues that are fite fuaite. Frequently, disputes over land resources and disputes between tribes cotton on to religious differences but, at the end of the day, and here is the point, if we describe people as victims as well as perpetrators of atrocities in the same breath, then our words lose the power to condemn and bring about change.

The bishop also said he would be only too delighted if the President and his advisers wanted to get into some kind of dialogue where the context could be explained. I can tell the House that Christian leaders in Nigeria are very worried that the Government in that country is looking the other way and perhaps even facilitating armed extremist Muslim terrorists, who may have land interests but are also motivated by religious hatred. That issue needs to be opened up, just as much as we open up the horrors that are going on in Ukraine. Just because it is Africa, just because it is further away, we must not be ignorant, vague or bland in our assessment of what is going on.

In conclusion, I will say this. Our President makes fantastic comments from time to time and he did so again on housing, but when he or, indeed, his predecessor, Mrs. McAleese, gets it wrong, there needs to be something better coming from the press office than a doubling down. If an error is pointed out in good faith, it is great leadership if we show the capacity to say “Yes, I did not get that quite right and I am willing to amend my hand.” Our President does well. He would do even better if he was capable of doing that from time to time and, indeed, so would all of us.

I conclude my intervention by asking for a debate. This is not having a go at anybody. I want a debate about what is happening in Nigeria. I want a debate about the persecution of Christian and other religious minorities but, in particular, the horrors of what is going on in Nigeria at the moment must be ventilated. We must get our embassies putting pressure on the Nigerian Government to talk honestly about what is going on and to hear our representations about what it needs to do in order to protect religious freedom and protect people from tribes that are out to ravage them, burn people and kill people in their churches.