Apologies have been received from the Chair. He is speaking in the Dáil while this meeting is taking place. He sends his apologies.

We are dealing with the Public Health (Tobacco Products and Nicotine Inhaling Products) (Amendment) Bill 2026. The purpose of the meeting is to consider the Bill on Committee Stage. The Bill will further regulate nicotine inhaling products and introduce measures to address other novel nicotine products, such as nicotine pouches. It will prohibit the sale of nicotine products, such as pouches, to under-18s, prohibit the advertising of nicotine products in retail outlets and prohibit their display in mixed retail outlets, restrict imagery on nicotine products and packaging, prohibit the sale of devices resembling or functioning as other products, prohibit all flavour descriptions other than basic flavour names for nicotine products and limit flavours in nicotine products to tobacco, with power to make changes by regulation.

I welcome the Minister of State with responsibility for public health, well-being and the national drugs strategy, Deputy Murnane O'Connor, who is accompanied by officials from her Department.

I remind members of the constitutional requirement they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any members partaking via Microsoft Teams that, prior to making their contribution to the meeting, they confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

Before we move on to detailed consideration of the Bill, I understand the Minister of State wishes to make some brief introductory remarks.

I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach and the members of the committee for facilitating this Stage of our Bill this morning. It is important legislation and I know that everyone is keen to see it progress as quickly as possible. I thank all the Deputies who contributed to the debate on Second Stage in the Dáil and I welcome and appreciate the support shown across all parties for these measures and value the feedback provided. From our discussions on Second Stage, it is clear that we all share common concerns about the health impact of nicotine inhaling products or vapes, as well as other products, such as pouches, particularly on our young children. I constantly hear about it from parents and teachers. These products are being used by our young people and it is important that we intervene. Nicotine is a highly addictive substance and evidence shows that young people who vape are more likely to take up smoking. That is not a future that we want for our young people. As a country, we have done so much to tackle the harms caused by smoking. We now want to intervene and spare these young people a potential lifetime of addiction and illness all because of a decision that they made in childhood.

I understand that the measures we are bringing in with this Bill will have impacts on some businesses but we are working to protect the health of our children and all our people. That means our decisions are evidence-based and health-led.

Deputy Cullinane sends his apologies. He is going to be tied up in the Chamber on the Social Democrats' Private Members' Bill. I will move his amendment, if necessary.

We will go through each of the sections. The amendment is at the very end.

May I speak to the amendment now or to the Bill in general? I will speak at the end.

I am advised the Deputy cannot move the amendment.

Is that because it is in Deputy Cullinane's name?

The amendment is not going to be dealt with until the end of the session. We will go through each of the sections.

That is perfect.

The Minister of State and I have had this conversation previously on other vape-related Bills. I fully agree with her that this is important legislation and there are concerns common to Members from all political parties and none, particularly when it comes to the proliferation of some nicotine products that flooded the market in a short time.

I want to be clear when I say this. I support strong regulation, I support banning the sale of vaping products and nicotine pouches to those under 18 and I absolutely support the removal from any shelf of products that are designed primarily to hook children into the use of an addictive substance, namely, nicotine. The inclusion of nicotine pouches is very important. They have operated in a grey area for far too long. I also support those advertising restrictions relating to the hidden displays and those colourful almost toy-like devices that are aimed specifically at children. As a parent, I find them absolutely deplorable.

I also fully support any stronger enforcement powers and penalties because if we do not have the penalties and the enforcement to go along with laws, they are essentially just words on paper, and good intentions on paper do not lead to good policy or good health outcomes.

I mentioned before in the Chamber that I particularly welcome the move to ban single-use vapes. They are environmentally destructive and deeply wasteful and have no place in a public health framework, to my mind. However, I believe the Government has undermined the Minister of State's own public health policy and the logic of it by effectively making reusable vapes more expensive than disposable vapes. As I said at the time, that was a mistake.

The core problem that I have with the Bill is the blanket ban on flavours other than tobacco or unflavoured products. I do note that additional flavours can be added by regulation but the Minister of State has chosen an extreme starting point to come at this, one that lacks balance and a proportionate approach. That lack of an appropriate approach risks driving adults from a regulated product straight into a black market and unregulated, low-quality and potentially dangerous products. Nobody can legislate away from the Internet. It is simply not possible. People are still going to source flavoured products online. They will source them from abroad and without proper oversight, quality control and safety standards, there is no guarantee that what they are buying is not going to cause them further and significant harm. That is not a smart public health policy. The Minister of State is handing something that could potentially be regulated, and very strenuously regulated, over to what could very well be criminal enterprises at the back of it and rogue online sellers simply for market opportunity.

When I see the restrictions, I also think there is an element of nanny statism in this, instead of trusting adults to make informed decisions within a tightly regulated framework. We have seen repeatedly, over decades, and we know the statistics that show that many adults move to vapes from smoking. I was one of them. I vape. I am a former smoker. I moved to vapes because I did not want to smoke any more. In my mind, flavoured vapes do have a place here. They are a tool that has helped many people quit cigarettes in the first place. By limiting them to only tobacco, the Minister of State is forcing people back to the flavour of the products that have cost countless people their lives, while others have spent a small fortune trying to get out off them. Central to public health policy have to be objectives that reduce smoking rates first and foremost and I do not feel this Bill as it stands, by restricting the flavours to only nicotine or unflavoured, is going to produce the outcome that the Minister of State and all of us want to see happen. I believe that in some cases, this will force people back to cigarettes. It is a mistake.

This is very similar. It is related to the amendment. Does the Deputy want to go with the amendment now or will I answer this separately? I will answer it separately.

The reason we are banning all flavours except tobacco and non-flavours is that this is what is most likely to reduce their appeal to young people. In balancing the protection of our young people with help for adults who smoke, we have found, and this is evidence-based, that vaping is not a substitute for smoking among the smoking population in adults. Dual use of tobacco and e-cigarettes is no longer associated with the intention to quit smoking. One in six adults who vape have never smoked. There is a bit of confusion about that. There is no evidence that e-cigarette flavours increase the likelihood of quitting tobacco. The World Health Organization recommends that countries prohibit all flavours except tobacco - we have included unflavoured with tobacco - on the basis that e-cigarettes are not contributing to the public health benefit of the population level. The Oireachtas Joint Committee on Health also recommended legislation to ban all flavours except tobacco during pre-legislative scrutiny of the 2023 Act. This was what we worked with while this legislation was being worked on. I visited the Netherlands which allows tobacco flavour only. The Dutch say that is working really well. I was there during my St. Patrick's Day visit. We are looking at other countries but the Netherlands is the one we are working with more than others.

This is the reason we are doing this. I understand the points the Deputy is making. This is about protecting children and taking a health-led approach. That is why we are doing this. We are going on the World Health Organization recommendation and the recommendations of the joint committee. That is part of what we are doing going forward. I thank the Deputy for highlighting the issue.

With the greatest of respect, if one in six adults who vape today never smoked, that means five in six did, which means that a substantial number of people have used vaping to move away from what is a deadly habit of consuming cigarettes by inhalation. The Government has options in this regard. There is nothing stopping it from putting every single bottle of vape juice in this country in a single black container behind a locked door in a limited number of shops. That option is on the table.

I do not want to see this policy backfire but it is my firmly held belief that by banning every flavour and not accepting the amendment, at least as regards menthol flavouring, that is exactly what is going to happen. It is not going to have the outcome the Minister of State and the rest of us want.

We very much encourage quit vaping services for young people. There are services out there and we are encouraging people not to smoke or vape. We are taking a health-led approach, which is important for us. It is not good for someone to smoke or vape and the long-term consequences of that are what we are trying to get out there. We are saying that this not good for people's health in the long term.

Last year, we invested nearly €500,000 in a campaign to make people aware and help them to stop vaping and smoking. This Bill is about doing that.

The Bill does not apply to medical devices and medicines. If the industry believes there are products that are for smoking, that is not what this is about. This is all about the health-led approach. We are really trying to say to people, "Please stop vaping and smoking; it is not good for you." I thank the Deputy for her contribution. We are always looking at different preventative measures. The same applies to smoking. We have different campaigns and work on that too.

My view is that the removal of flavours is important. Flavours make getting into vaping more attractive to young people.

One of the biggest concerns I have around the whole vaping situation is that we have a lot of young people who are vaping and then going on to smoke, who would never have smoked. It makes it more attractive for them. There are also issues around chemicals and toxins that are in the colourants. That is another issue. If we are talking about trying to reduce the number of people taking up smoking, it is a gateway to smoking. Flavoured vapes, in my view, are one way that is facilitated. There are nicotine replacement products that can be prescribed by a GP. They are free to medical card holders. They are on the community drugs scheme, so the cost is obviated. I support the Minister of State's position on this, while respecting Deputy Clarke's position.

I thank everyone. This is an awareness issue. I cannot highlight this enough. I have spoken to so many people. As Deputy Martin Daly has said, it is about what is in the vapes and the different flavours. It is just about our children's health and well-being. That is why we are doing this. It is to protect our children.

The other issue I have about vapes is that the market appears to change every week, we actually do not know what is going into a lot of the vapes as well. At least with tobacco, we actually know what is in cigarettes. There is a huge issue now about what actually is going into vapes. This legislation is important from dealing with this issue.

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 34, between lines 5 and 6, to insert the following:

“

”.

A number of us have engagements in the Dáil as there is a health Bill that we have to speak to. I apologise for not being here. Deputy Clarke was taking this for us but I have to move the amendment. It is mostly the same issues we just discussed. There is no quarrel whatsoever from me or my party when it comes to doing everything possible to protect children from vaping and smoking. My starting point is always that if nobody smokes and nobody vapes, I am happy. I do not smoke or vape, but people do. Adults smoke and adults vape. Anything that can protect children, I am in favour of it. On Second Stage, I spoke at length about a lot of those measures which I support in respect of advertising. I do not like how these products are sold. I do not like the packaging. I believe plain packaging is a way out of that, like it is on cigarettes. I do not like how they present as toys and all of that, or the different flavours which are clearly targeted at children. I do not like seeing them when I go into an outlet and can see the colours and the visual element very clearly. All of those provisions I fully support. There are other issues in relation to advertising. The committee can take it for granted that I support any and all of those measures because we have to protect children.

As was said, the reality is that there are maybe one in six adults who did not smoke but who vape. I would say to those adults not to vape either, so we can always give that advice. Public health advice is not to vape. Public health advice is also not to drink too much alcohol. We can give lots of advice to people but adults are adults, and adults have to make up their own minds and their own opinions on issues. The difficulty here, and an Teachta Clarke spoke to it, is the lack of balance. I think there is a difficulty in saying to an adult who smoked that the only product they can buy in relation to vape is tobacco. It is asking them to go from cigarettes to vaping tobacco. It is not that we are asking them but they are making that choice themselves. I imagine the public health advice is to do neither. If someone is going from smoking to vaping and we are only making the tobacco flavour available, I do not think that is good policy at all. The one flavour that was mentioned to me, which is why it is in my amendment, is menthol. It is the one flavour that adults vape most. I do not think it is unreasonable to have plain packaging that can only be sold to adults, let adults make their own decisions and let us protect children. That is just my view.

Vapers have had their say on today's issue as well. There are different opinions among society on all these issues. I have engaged with people and have gone out of my way to talk to people who vape. They are concerned about the banning of all flavours. They do not mind most of the flavours being banned because most of them do not buy those flavours. I agree that a lot of the flavours like bubblegum and the more obvious ones that are directed at children should go. I have no problem with them being banned. However, there is a bit of an overreach here in relation to how we are treating adults. It is possible to strike a balance. We can have measures in place to fully protect children, which I support, while at the same time giving adults a limited choice in respect of flavours if that is what they want to do. If we were to purely look at things from a public health perspective, we would ban cigarettes altogether. If we were to come at it from a purist point of view, we would ban the sale of cigarettes, vapes and, by the way, alcohol as well, because they are bad for us. We do not do that because we have to treat adults as adults. We can ban children from doing things but adults make their own minds up. On this issue, we are going too far. That is my view.

I know the Minister of State is not going to change her mind on it. I am putting my position on the record. I will be pressing the amendment because I feel strongly on it. It is not even from a civil libertarian point of view. That is one element of it. I hear what is being said that public health experts have said that vaping is not the best tool to stop smoking from a public health perspective. There are public health risks with vaping as well. I think vapers know that. We should get that information out. All of the risks with vaping should be made publicly available. We should reinforce that in the same way we do with smoking. There are people who stop smoking and vape, and it is a better option for them as they see it. If we go to only the tobacco flavour, I fear that some will go back to smoking again. That is my fear. They will certainly find it more difficult. I am not sure it is going to have the effect of stopping them either smoking or vaping. That is my opinion and it is based on my engagement with vapers.

I do not have a quarrel at all with the Minister of State or an Teachta Martin Daly. I think we are agreeable on 99% of this. It is just that one issue where we are calling for a bit of flexibility for adults - a little bit of a balance that we do not see is there. I fully hear what the Minister of State is saying and why she is taking a different approach. There is no fundamental difference other than that, which obviously is a big difference. I do not want to labour the point. It has been well discussed on Second Stage and earlier as well. I am happy to move my amendment and I will be pressing it to a vote if it is not accepted.

I thank Deputy Cullinane for the amendment. I want to go back to what was said about vapes not being the only option for smokers. There is the HSE Quit service, and medications that are approved as safe and effective. We want to make sure we are helping smokers as well, and I thank the Deputy. Before I discuss the amendment, I just want to repeat that the main purpose of our Bill is to reduce the appeal of vapes to our children and young people. We are restricting the flavours to tobacco and unflavoured, as the Deputy has said, because these are the least likely to appeal to our young people. This aligns us mostly with EU member states that have moved forward with the flavour restrictions. It is also the recommendation of the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health and the World Health Organization. The data from our Healthy Ireland survey shows that tobacco is the least popular flavour among 15- to 24-year-olds, but the most popular for those over the age of 45. It is clear that the tobacco flavour is important for adults, some of whom may be smokers and rely on vapes as an add-on for quitting cigarettes. However, it is not likely to attract our young people. The position is not so clear in relation to menthol, to which the Deputy referred. The Healthy Ireland survey shows that menthol is the second most popular flavour category for 15- to 24-year-olds, with one in four purchasing menthol vapes. We are trying to strike a balance here. I understand where the Deputy is coming from and appreciate that he is trying to do this in terms of people who are trying to quit smoking. Our priority is the protection of our young people.

We recognise that some smokers use vapes to quit but we have our HSE quit service with nicotine replacement therapies and support for stop smoking advisers. We have a lot of them. The one thing I will say to the Deputy, and this is important, is that our Bill is designed to be able to change if the evidence changes. Under the new section 32F, the Minister for Health may be able to add or remove flavours through regulations. This means we can respond quickly if needed so this could be changed overnight. This can be done. I will not be accepting the amendment, but this can be changed. I appreciate the Deputy's intervention taking into account the primary objective of our Bill, but I do not see an argument to conclude with this. I do not propose to accept this amendment. However, it is important that this Bill can be changed and that was a priority for us.

I accept the Minister of State's response to some degree. We just have a difference of opinion on the flavours and on menthol. It is important for all of us to send a message out to the vaping industry to keep its hands off children-----

I agree 100%.

-----and that is not going to be tolerated. I wanted to say that clearly and decisively. That is my final contribution.

I totally agree.