asked the Minister for Lands if he will furnish details of the grants available for private afforestation; and when the grants were last revised.

Grants are paid at the rate of £35 per acre, £20 being paid on the satisfactory formation of the plantation and the balance after seven years if the plantation has been satisfactorily maintained in the meantime. An additional £5 per acre is payable with the second instalment if there are sufficient hardwood trees to form a crop. The grant is £25 per acre in the case of popular planting divided into two payments of £15 and £10 on the basis stated.

An additional scrub clearance grant to a maximum of £20 per acre is payable on a scaled basis where appropriate. The Forest and Wildlife Service also provide a free technical advisory service on planting methods, suitable species and so on.

The planting grants were last revised and became operative from the 1972-73 planting season.

Would the Minister accept that if the Forestry Division were serious about this scheme they would have revised the grants since 1972?

I do not agree. I believe that a revision in 1973 would perhaps mean another revision around about 1977. You cannot revise these things every year.

Why not?

Because the period of time from the previous revision would not indicate the need for a further revision.

Surely the Minister is not suggesting, if in 1972 a certain grant was considered appropriate to attract a farmer to any scheme, that there is not some need now for upgrading that grant having regard to the diminishing value of money?

I agree it should be looked at now but not before.

I thought, as the Minister is a farmer, he would be more hard-headed about grants than that.

I regard this as a capital grant. They would not be reviewed as frequently as other grants. As there was a revision in 1972-73 this would indicate the necessity for a further revision around about now. I believe that is fair enough.

Would the Minister accept that in respect of private afforestation we have the worst record in Europe, possibly in the world?

The Deputy is now expressing opinions. I will not join with him in the expression of an opinion about something I know nothing about.

Would the Minister accept that out of the total afforestation lands in the country only 10 per cent are in the hands of private owners and that that is a very unsatisfactory situation?

It does not look so good if those figures are correct.

Would the Minister accept that it would be worth his while to apply himself to a scheme to make private afforestation attractive to farmers?

You can do anything with money. The grants fixed in 1972-73 seemed to me to be attractive.

Has the Minister made any inquiries from the Forestry Division about the increased cost per acre of planting and care of trees in the last four years? The Minister mentioned there was no case for the revision of grants.

That is not what I indicated. I indicated that grants of a capital nature fixed in 1972-73 would now perhaps need revision. It would be extraordinary if the State were to review grants of a capital nature every year particularly in relation to something like afforestation which is a long term business where profits and reward for one's labour will not come forward for perhaps another 25 years.

Surely the Minister has some indication from his Department of the increased cost of planting and care of trees? Costs have increased by nearly 100 per cent.

I indicated to Deputy Tunney already that perhaps now is the time to look at this again but hardly in 1973-74 after 1972-73.

Is the Minister keeping himself informed of the EEC directive on this matter?

I am keeping myself fully informed.

Would the Minister accept that the financial provision in respect of this last year was merely £25,000 and that he has not, even though he says the scheme is attractive, made any provision for any increase in this year's Estimate? The sum is still £25,000.

It is coming to the time when we could have a look at it again.

Would the Minister indicate what view his Department are taking of the EEC directive?

The Deputy is raising another matter now.

We are not indicating any view at the moment. Account is taken of all EEC directives and they will be weighed in the balance when further changes are made in grants.

It is in the directive.

We will look after the directive.

24.

asked the Minister for Lands whether the nature and extent of private afforestation in European and other countries have been studied with a view to developing such afforestation here.

The pattern of private forestry in Ireland has evolved differently from that of other countries, reflecting largely differences in systems of land tenure, size of holding and the philosophy and attitude of individual farmers and landowners. While no one country could provide a model for forestry development in Ireland, the Forest and Wildlife Service of my Department are in close touch with developments in the nature and extent of private afforestation in European and other countries and can draw on this knowledge in making recommendations from time to time on the regulation and encouragement of private afforestation in Ireland.

Would the Minister accept that in respect of private afforestation no policy has evolved? We have done practically nothing in this regard.

In 1972-73 we provided a grant of £35 per acre paid on an instalment basis. That was a very generous figure at that time. I have indicated that the matter should be reviewed.

Can the Minister indicate what acreage of land was planted in respect of that grant scheme?

I can give some information on that as follows:

Surely the Minister will accept, having regard to those figures and our total land acreage that the amount devoted to private afforestation is negligible?

Private afforestation in Ireland is a small thing.

It is reducing year by year.

We will see what we can do about it.

Would the Minister take account of the fact that in regard to the EEC directive our official attitude is in favour of public forestry rather than private forestry and our approach to the directive is coloured by this traditional thinking in his Department? Would he, as an in-coming Minister with fresh new ideas, look into the attitude of his Department and see whether, in the new situation of the EEC directive, whatever assistance can be made available from European funds for private forests will be made available?

I will certainly have a look at that.

Is the Minister aware that one individual in County Clare has provided a very successful model of what private afforestation can achieve? Would he have his officials study this? This individual has several acres under afforestation which have provided an excellent return in as few as 12 years. Is the Minister aware of this individual's achievements?

If the Deputy would indicate the name of the person and the location of the forest to me or to my Department, I shall certainly have it looked at with a view to having it become a model.

Mount Callan, County Clare.

Would the Minister——

A very brief supplementary, Deputy. I want to get on to other questions.

Will the Minister assure us that he will look at a scheme which will be a complete departure from existing schemes so that we might have a situation in which a farmer would look upon trees as a crop? He could mortgage his land and his crop to the Land Commission—they would not be acquiring his land at all—to encourage him in what is a capital investment on a long term policy. Such a farmer might mortgage his land and crop and get financial payments in respect of that activity.

No such arrangement exists at present but it can be looked at.

I hope the Minister will.