asked the Minister for Fisheries the amount provided by his Department for inland fisheries for 1977.

The amount provided from the Exchequer for inland fisheries development work in 1977, exclusive of the expenses of headquarter's staff, is £1,216,750.

Can the Minister tell the House if the figure mentioned makes allowance for the implementation of the report by the Inland Fisheries Commission?

Naturally it does, as it is there.

It does?

Yes.

9.

asked the Minister for Fisheries the amount of money available to BIM for the building of new boats and for loan purposes for secondhand boats for 1977.

The following funds are available to an Bord Iascaigh Mhara for capital purposes in 1977:

The capital development grant is used mainly to provide grants for the purchase of new fishing vessels but the amount available includes provision also for the capital improvement of existing vessels, for incentive grants and for capital investment in the board's boatyards and ice plants.

The advances from the Central fund and the board's own resources are used to provide loans for secondhand boats and smaller sized new boats, for the capital improvement of existing vessels, for fishing gear purchases and for capital investment in the boards own boatyards. It is not possible at this stage of the year to give a detailed breakdown of these grants and loans as between the various headings. The above funds will be supplemented by loan finance from Irish banks for larger new fishing vessels.

Will the Minister accept that applicants for secondhand boats are finding it very difficult to get the necessary finance from BIM and are in the position of having to go to the bank for loans on which they must pay higher rates of interest?

I am not satisfied in this regard but the question is one of loan finance from the Irish banks to BIM for this purpose. The process of scrutiny in relation to applications of all kinds is slow. I am making representations in an effort to have this process speeded up. The slowness existed before I came on the scene. It is a feature of the situation.

Will the Minister accept that the question is not one of slowness but of outright refusal as a result of there not being available sufficient moneys for secondhand boats? Will he accept, too, that the purchase of secondhand boats is a very necessary step in the expansion of our fishing fleet as young fishermen, of necessity, buy secondhand boats initially?

I agree that the purchase of a secondhand boat can be the very important first step for a young fisherman but I would not agree with the Deputy as to the reason for the delay in reaching decisions in regard to accommodating applicants. Any of us who has had occasion to make application to a bank for a loan has had to wait for a decision. I cannot interfere with that situation.

10.

asked the Minister for Fisheries if, in view of the serious position of the fishing industry due to depletion of stocks, he will consider making grants available to enable fishermen who so desire to adapt to industrial and other types of fishing which are not traditionally carried out by this country's fishing fleet.

An Bord Iascaigh Mhara operate a grant and loan scheme for adapting and improving fishing boats. An approved applicant is eligible for a grant of 25 per cent and a loan at the current subsidised interest rate of 8 per cent per annum. As part of their overall policy for the development of the sea fishing industry the board encourage fishermen to fish for species other than those traditionally fished.

Is the Minister telling the House that grants are available for fishermen who wish to change from the traditional type fishing to other types of fishing and can he say when these grants were introduced?

A grant scheme is available for adapting and improving fishing boats. Therefore, a skipper who wished to adapt his vessel for a type of fishing in which he had not engaged in previously would be eligible to apply for both the grant and loan. To give an example of the situation—for engines, winches and line haulers a skipper owner is asked for only 7½ per cent while other persons are asked for 15 per cent. The grant in this case is 25 per cent and the loan as agreed in each case subject to a maximum of 67½ per cent of total cost is at a subsidised interest rate of 8 per cent for not more than ten years. In respect of electronic devices— radio, sonar, echo sounder, radar and decca navigator—the minimum repayment is 25 per cent while the grant, too, is 25 per cent and the loan as agreed in each case, subject to a maximum of 50 per cent of total cost, is at a subsidised interest rate of 8 per cent subject to variation, for not more than three years.

In the case of decca navigator the facilities are related only to the cost of installation and necessary ancillary equipment which is not the subject of any rental agreement. In respect of structural development—for example, hold insulation, improved accommodation, improved wheelhouse and so on—the terms are: grant, 25 per cent, repayment 25 per cent with the loan being on the same terms as for electronic equipment. These aids are not specifically for the purpose referred to by the Deputy but they help in that regard.

BIM, particularly since the decline in herring stocks, have been encouraging fishermen to diversify their fishing activities to include varieties for which they have not fished formerly, for example, sprats, dogfish and blue whiting. Advice is given by the board in methods of fishing for these species and occasionally specialised gear is made available for this purpose. Where finances permit, fishermen are subsidised to engage in exploratory fishing for these species.

An example of this activity is the recent effort by BIM to encourage fishing for sprat for human consumption off the south-east coast. The board succeeded to the extent that six fishing vessels transferred to sprat fishing in the area at the close of the herring season by arranging a market for the catches of sprat made by the vessels. The results to date are encouraging.

The board hope also to extend these operations in the near future to other varieties such as blue whiting, ling and dogfish. It is understood, however, that the finances available to BIM at present will not be sufficient to enable them to subsidise fishermen who wish to engage in such fishing either by providing gear or by guaranteeing the fishermen minimum earnings while they are so engaged. The latter may be what Deputy Gallagher is trying to establish. It is of course a matter for the board to decide how their allocation of funds is expended.

The Department have strong reservations about encouraging industrial fishing, for example, aimed fishing for fishmeal. Fishermen generally share the Department's view in this regard. The problems with industrial fishing is the use of small mesh nets which result in by-catches of immature fish of commercial species.

I thank the Minister for that long reply but it was totally irrelevant to the question I tabled. In his original reply the Minister said that grants were not available in respect of adapting to new types of fishing. Having regard to the fact that stocks of fish of the traditional types are dwindling to such an extent, will the Minister ask BIM to make available the necessary moneys to enable people to adapt to other types of fishing, particularly industrial fishing?

We are doing that but one of the problems in regard to industrial fishing is, as I have said, the by-catching of immature fish of known valuable species. If, for instance, in the process of industrial fishing millions of young herrings were caught, the effect would be very bad in the context of the conservation of that species. The same would apply in respect of plaice, for instance.

Question No. 11.

In view of the Minister's detailed reply——

I had been hoping to get on to the next question.

——on conservation it seems clear that he is the Minister responsible for conservation. Therefore, can he explain why Question No. 17 in my name on today's Order Paper in respect of conservation proposals within the EEC has been transferred to the Minister for Foreign Affairs? Is this an indication that the Minister for Fisheries has been told to move over and that the Minister for Foreign Affairs is conducting the negotiations?

This is quite irrelevant.

That is not so. The negotiations are being conducted by the Minister for Foreign Affairs and myself.

Can the Minister say why my question has been transferred to the Minister for Foreign Affairs?

Order. The Deputy would need to put down a separate question on that subject. He may not raise the matter on the question we are discussing. It is not relevant.

I wish to know why my question has been transferred.

Order. Deputy O'Kennedy must desist from interrupting and allow questions to continue. Question No. 11 has been called.

Is it the Minister for Foreign Affairs who is responsible now for conservation?

This is not relevant.

It is relevant. Who is responsible for the negotiations?

I am asking the Deputy to resume his seat.

Has the Minister for Fisheries withdrawn from the negotiations?

This is not relevant to Question No. 10.

I contend that it is relevant.

That is a matter for the Chair to decide. We must have order.