asked the Minister for Fisheries if he will establish a national fishing fleet using An Bord Iascaigh Mhara as the executive agency; and purchase surplus fishing vessels which are now available.

I am not quite clear as to what the Deputy has in mind but I would like to point out that we already have a national fishing fleet which has been expanding rapidly with the aid of substantial financial assistance from the State.

I apologise if my question is not phrased as accurately as it should be—I mean a State-owned fishing fleet.

I do not think that is on. I do not think it is practicable. Our present system of having a boat-owner fishing fleet is one we should work on with the aid of State help through the marine credit plan in particular, providing loans and grants for the purchase of boats and gear and in that way build a fishing fleet. Investment in a State fishing fleet as such would be anathema to the sort of development that has taken place in Irish sea fisheries and in my view would not be on as a commercial possibility today.

In view of the fact that we are changing totally the extent of our fishing boundaries and zone, would the Minister not agree that the private sector has demonstrated its total incapacity in the past to exploit the resources of a narrow coastal zone and to expect it in a short period suddenly to expand to possibly 50 miles is being over-optimistic no matter what sort of grants are given and that the only alternative realistically is a State-owned fishing fleet?

I do not think the Deputy is aware that European fishing operators within the Community are now winding down their fleets. Certainly, there is no commercial future for a State-owned fishing fleet on all the information available to me.

If it is not on for a State-owned fleet, why should it be on for a privately owned fleet?

Because of the nature of the fishing industry and its requirements as regards the personnel engaged in it. It is essentially a type of industry that demands personal initiative and we shall help that in every way.

Are you denying that personal initiative has a role in the State sector?

This is becoming an argument.

It is not a sociological debate we are having.

But the Minister made the point that there is no room for personal initiative in the State sector.

15.

asked the Minister for Fisheries what action, if any, he proposes to take to secure a 50-mile exclusive fishing limit around this country's coast; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

At EEC Council meetings and in bilateral discussions which I have had with Fishery Ministers from a number of member States, I have pressed for an exclusive coastal zone of up to 50 miles for Irish fishermen and will continue to do so in future negotiations.

Does the Minister now subscribe without equivocation to the strong belief, indeed the conviction of all those engaged in the fishing industry that nothing less than a 50-mile limit will provide the essential safeguards for the protection and expansion of the industry? Will he assure the House that there will be no compromising on that fundamental issue?

I am in a negotiating position at present with Ministers of Fisheries of the other eight member-States. An important Council of Ministers' meeting in this connection to discuss this precise issue is scheduled for next Monday and Tuesday, 24th and 25th October. So far as I am concerned, our stance is precisely what the Deputy suggests. We are seeking an exclusive 50-mile zone for our fishermen. That is our position. There will be a lot of hard bargaining on this. We are in negotiation now, so I would ask people to be careful.

Just as Fianna Fáil were.

As Fianna Fáil were in Opposition.

Could we have an assurance from the Minister that he will not permit any permanent agreements between EEC countries and third countries on reciprocal fishing arrangements until such time as they have agreed to allow us that 50-mile exclusive limit about which the Minister has spoken?

I agree with the Deputy that the issue of granting third countries reciprocal arrangements in our waters is an important bargaining card in our negotiating position.

The question asked did not relate to our waters. The Minister is changing the wording. Moreover, the question asked is not whether it is important. The question we are asking is for an assurance that, under no circumstances, will the Minister give away the trump card we hold in this respect that we can and must veto any agreement entered into or purported or attempted to be entered into by the Community with third countries for reciprocal fishing rights unless and until our claim is satisfied. Can we have a clear assurance and not an evasion from the Minister on that point?

I agree with the Deputy. This is exactly our position. This is a major card in our negotiating package. I thought I made that quite clear to the Deputy.

Will the Minister agree that in no circumstances will he allow such agreements to be entered into unless and until we get satisfaction on this issue?

The Minister is holding all his cards very close to his chest at present. That is how negotiations should be conducted, as the Deputy should have known, and as Deputy Donegan should have known.

Will the Minister give the House this assurance which was given clearly by us in our time, or will he concede this whole matter as he has done in other aspects of fishing?

Certainly in regard to delicate negotiations I will not behave in the manner in which Deputy FitzGerald and Deputy Donegan behaved in Europe to the disgrace of themselves and this country in Europe in the earlier months of this year.

The Minister will not give the House an assurance on this point.

I have the facts and the data to sustain the point of view I have just put, plus personal information.

The Minister will not give the House this assurance.

The Minister's cards are a busted flush.

I want to hear Deputy Treacy.

The Minister would prefer not to hear me.

Does the Minister not agree that the most recent visit of Monsieur Gundelach to this country last week would give heart or hope to us here that he favours an exclusive 50-mile limit? What is the Minister's stance in respect of his opposite number on that issue?

We are not in the business of heart and hope. We are in the business of tough negotiations. Commissioner Gundelach may have his opinion, but essentially it will come down to what the Council of Ministers do, that is, myself and my eight counterparts, the Ministers for Fisheries, sitting in Council.

I wish to raise this matter on the Adjournment as we do not regard the answer given by the Minister as satisfactory.

The Chair will communicate with the Deputy.

16.

asked the Minister for Fisheries what plans he has to develop a co-ordinated programme for the further modernisation and development of the Irish fishing fleet.

The Irish fishing fleet is being modernised and developed in accordance with a national programme which has been in operation for some years. This programme will be updated as required and I am at present studying proposals in this connection which have been submitted to me by a number of organisations involved in the fishing industry.

Can the Minister indicate to the House to what extent his proposals will differ from the existing schemes and grants available?

I will be spelling this out in greater detail in reply to a question from Deputy Begley in a few minutes time. If the Deputy will wait, I have this information in answer to another question.

17.

asked the Minister for Fisheries what action, if any, he proposes to take to promote the expansion of the Irish fish processing industry.

As the Deputy is no doubt aware the establishment or development of fish processing plants in any part of the State is a matter in the first instance for private enterprise.

Every encouragement and assistance is given by my Department and An Bord Iascaigh Mhara in the setting up or extension of fish processing plants and grants are available for suitable projects from the Industrial Development Authority or Gaeltarra Éireann as appropriate.

Can the Minister indicate what additional grants, if any, will be available to the fish processing industry?

The full range of grants and loans available to any industrial enterprise are available to the fish processing industry. The full range of industrial incentives which we have are available to the fish processing industry.

Does the Minister envisage moneys forthcoming from the EEC?

That is another aspect of the negotiations to which I will be paying very great attention. I am glad the Deputy referred to it. It is an important aspect.