asked the Minister for Education the reasons for employing untrained teachers in primary schools; what investigations were carried out as to the availability of trained teachers such as University graduates with Higher Diplomas in Education; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

11.

asked the Minister for Education if he intends to pursue a policy of employing university graduates with or without Higher Diplomas in Education on a permanent ongoing basis in primary schools; and if he will make a comprehensive statement on the matter.

With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 10 and 11 together.

Untrained teachers are employed in national schools only when qualified teachers are not available and then only in a temporary capacity for a limited period.

University graduates are not recognised as qualified teachers in national schools unless they have been selected under the annually advertised competition for entry to a college of education and have completed successfully a one-year course in the college. It is intended to continue these arrangements.

In view of the Minister's approach to the problem of special graduate teachers, the House should be given an explanation of the future policy in relation to employing graduate teachers in national schools. Does the Minister intend to have them as a permanent inflow into the primary sector?

I have answered that question. University graduates are not recognised as qualified teachers in national schools unless they have been selected under the annually advertised competition for entry to a college of education. We intend to continue that scheme and to recruit as many leaving certificate students as possible to continue our main objective of reducing the pupil-teacher ratio.

May I take it that the Minister will not be changing the established procedure for training primary school teachers?

I intend to recruit more people in order to deal with the pupil-teacher ratio.

I supported the Minister's moves to reduce the pupil-teacher ratio, but I think the House is entitled to an explanation of the Minister's approach to recruiting more people.

I intend to continue to recruit as in the past, namely, on the results of the leaving certificate and suitable graduates. My main complaint is that not enough people were being recruited.

As the Minister intends to increase the number of people in training, can he tell us whether there are sufficient places available for them?

If places are not available, I intend to provide places for them.

Will next year's Estimate include a sum to provide for the increase in the number of places in training colleges?

If the Deputy puts down a separate question I will get the information for him.

What policy does the Minister intend to pursue in relation to the vertical integration of the teaching profession?

If the Deputy is keen on vertical integration and wants information on it, I will provide him with the answer to the question.

12.

asked the Minister for Education if, in relation to his scheme to introduce university graduates in primary schools, one of the main considerations was to relieve the unemployment position.

The answer is yes.

Did the Minister notice statements in the Press to the effect that many of those graduates had left other employment to take up positions as teachers?

My information is that not many of those graduates had left employment to take up teaching.

Is the Minister saying that the statements in the Press to the effect that many of them had left good employment to take up teaching is untrue? That statement appeared in newspapers on more than one occasion and there was no denial from the Minister's Department.

It is not possible to deny every statement that appears in the newspapers.

How many graduates left other employment to take up teaching and stated so in their application forms? How many of them are recorded as coming from full-time remunerated insured employment to take up those positions? Is that information available in the Minister's Department? Is the Minister aware that the stated purpose of the exercise of taking on such graduates was to provide employment for graduates who had no employment? Can the Minister give us that information?

It is not true to say that the stated objective was to provide employment.

It was one of them.

That is correct; let us be accurate. The exact figure of people who had some position before they were recruited I do not have but I will get it and give it to the Deputy. The vast majority of the people recruited were those who had degrees, some had diplomas and some Ceard Teastas Gaeilge. They may not have had jobs and it was the intention to use them in the schools in a proper fashion to improve the pupil-teacher ratio.

Is the Minister aware that in a number of cases severe personal hardship has been suffered by people who accepted places on these courses on the basis of the Minister's assurance in his circular?

I can assure the Deputy that they will not suffer severe personal hardship.

Is it the Minister's intention to pay them a salary as and from the date he recruited them?

We must move on to the next question.

Why will the Minister not answer the question put by Deputy Collins?

What was the question?

Does the Minister intend to pay a salary to the recruited teachers as and from the time they were recruited?

As I told the House, I am working on the scheme at present and I hope to announce the terms of the scheme before the weekend. I should like to repeat that there will not be severe financial hardship or distress which seems to be causing Deputy Horgan's heart to bleed.

It is not causing my heart to bleed.

That was a very cynical remark and it does not become the Minister.

I am assuring the graduates that I am standing by my original bargain with them.

Such personal remarks do not become the Minister.

I am again calling the next question. We are now having repetition.