asked the Minister for Energy the reason he is refusing to sanction a supply of natural gas to Clonmel, County Tipperary.

I have not refused to sanction a supply of gas for Clonmel — quite the contrary. In August 1984, I secured Government approval for a supply of natural gas to Clonmel. This was based on proposals submitted by Clonmel Corporation.

In subsequent discussions with Bord Gáis Éireann, the corporation made substantial alterations in their proposals for financing the project. Further negotiations between the parties have not so far resolved one important aspect of the financing proposals. I have asked BGE to pursue the matter with the corporation. I am confident that agreement can be reached quickly and that gas can be brought to Clonmel without further delay.

Is the Minister aware of the widespread disappointment in Clonmel because they have been waiting so long for a supply of natural gas? Perhaps the Minister would confirm that the demand by Bord Gáis on Clonmel Corporation has been excessive — a huge amount of money. Perhaps the Minister has the figures available. That is the reason the project is not going forward. This situation has existed for quite some time. If it is not resolved, is the Minister prepared to allow private enterprise to come in and take an interest with Clonmel Corporation to resolve the financial problems which apparently Bord Gáis are not prepared to resolve?

I am confident that the matter will be resolved without further delay and that it will not be necessary to look for any other partners in the Clonmel Gas Company. I reject any implication that I caused the delay since the original agreement was sanctioned by me and approved by the Government in August 1984. Subsequently Clonmel Corporation came back to the Government with figures different from those contained in the original agreement. That is what has caused the delay, but I am confident that we can reach agreement within a matter of days or weeks.

Is the Minister aware that a representative from Clonmel Gas attended a recent meeting of the Joint Committee on Commercial State-Sponsored Bodies and gave a totally different story from the one the Minister is telling the House today? The problem is the huge amount of money being demanded by Bord Gáis, not that there was a change of plan. The Minister makes a big point of stating that the Government decision was made in August 1984. I would remind him that the Government decided in October 1982 to give Limerick, Clonmel and Waterford a gas supply. That was two and a half years ago but it has not happened yet.

That is a statement and if we do not make further progress some Deputies will feel they have a grievance.

Can we have a straight answer from the Minister regarding an extraordinary amount of money being demanded by An Bord Gáis from Clonmel?

I do not agree with that.

Give us the figure.

Stick around.

We will let Clonmel Corporation take it up with the Minister again.

There are two sides to every story.

12.

asked the Minister for Energy the reason he is refusing to sanction a supply of natural gas to Kilkenny Gas thereby depriving 700 consumers and a very large industrial concern of this national resource and putting the future of the company and their workers in imminent danger; if he will reconsider his decision as a matter of urgency; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

15.

asked the Minister for Energy when it is expected that a decision will be made on the application by persons (details supplied) in County Kilkenny for the provision of natural gas.

I propose to take Questions Nos. 12 and 15 together.

Proposals for a supply of natural gas to the Kilkenny Gas Company and a substantial industry in that area have been under consideration for some time. The parties have so far failed to produce agreement on the possible supply of natural gas at a price which would be consistent with Government policy. As I indicated on 13 March 1985 in reply to Questions Nos. 377, 378 and 379, by Deputies Aylward and De Rossa, my responsibility is to ensure development of the natural gas grid in accordance with sound commercial principles.

While Kilkenny Gas have indicated their intention to close, I have no information to suggest that failure by the industry concerned to procure access to natural gas would jeopardise them and their workforce. They have consistently maintained that in the absence of agreement on a supply of natural gas, they would have a viable alternative in a switch to coal.

Could the Minister indicate with whom negotiations are continuing for the supply of natural gas or could he confirm after such a long period whether he intends to grant a supply of natural gas to Kilkenny?

Government policy is that the price of gas must reflect its inherent value as a substitute for imported oil and that is the basis of negotiations with any of the gas utilities, either public or private, in relation to the supply of gas for their area. Obviously there is a difficulty in relation to the project by the Kilkenny Gas Company and the large industrial user in that area. Discussions have been going on for a considerable time and I have made every effort to bring discussions to a satisfactory conclusion from the point of view of the Government and the taxpayer. Any subsidies must be borne by the taxpayers in every area of the country, not just the Kilkenny area. I have tried over the past 18 months to bring the negotiations to a conclusion but unfortunately that has not been possible.

Is the Minister aware that last Wednesday week the Joint Committee on Commercial State-Sponsored Bodies met representatives of Bord Gáis? In reply to a direct question by Deputy Reynolds the chief executive of Bord Gáis indicated that the provision of natural gas to Kilkenny was finished and that no further negotiations were taking place. He confirmed that position twice when the subject was pressed. I have the transcript in front of me.

"No gas for Kilkenny," he said.

I have not seen the transcript but the reply is correct. Many months ago I informed the proprietor of the Kilkenny Gas Company at meetings I had with him of the difficulties we were encountering. I have maintained Government policy in relation to the sale of gas. Only within that framework can a satisfactory agreement be reached. If the proprietors of the Kilkenny Gas Company and the substantial private commercial company which could have had a possibility of using gas wish to renegotiate, then Bord Gáis Éireann and the Department will try to facilitate them.

It is obvious that the Minister is not in contact with members of his own Department since the assistant secretary was also represented at the meeting. It was emphasised on two occasions that there would not be a supply of natural gas to Kilkenny and the reasons were given. Smithwicks Brewery have decided to opt for coal and Kilkenny as an entity was too small.

There will be an opportunity for debating the reports later on.

I am entitled to know once and for all whether Kilkenny city and Smithwicks Brewery are to get a supply of natural gas. Will the Minister indicate with whom negotiations are taking place? Is it between Bord Gáis and Smithwicks? The chief executive officer has said that negotiations are no longer taking place. Will the Minister confirm that? We have a new format for Question Time but we are still not getting answers.

I have already answered the first part of the question and said that if Kilkenny Gas Company and the industry in the area which has expressed interest in acquiring a supply of natural gas can reach agreement with Bord Gáis Éireann and the Department of Energy in relation to a pricing structure which will fit into the guidelines for the distribution of natural gas, there will not be any difficulty.

Does the Minister accept that the chief executive officer of An Bord Gáis in the presence of the assistant secretary of the Department of Energy was telling the truth?

We cannot hold an appeal here on something that is being tried elsewhere.

Does the Minister accept that?

This is a private company. There are 700 customers involved and it is a large industry. In view of that would the Minister consider taking it into State ownership as part of his overall nationalisation plan for the gas industry seeing that he took over the private one in Cork to get his other friends out of their problems?

That is a separate question.

I suppose when they are low enough the Minister will take them for nothing.