asked the Minister for Energy the reason he is refusing to sanction a supply of natural gas to Kilkenny Gas thereby depriving 700 consumers and a very large industrial concern of this national resource and putting the future of the company and their workers in imminent danger; if he will reconsider his decision as a matter of urgency; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

15.

asked the Minister for Energy when it is expected that a decision will be made on the application by persons (details supplied) in County Kilkenny for the provision of natural gas.

I propose to take Questions Nos. 12 and 15 together.

Proposals for a supply of natural gas to the Kilkenny Gas Company and a substantial industry in that area have been under consideration for some time. The parties have so far failed to produce agreement on the possible supply of natural gas at a price which would be consistent with Government policy. As I indicated on 13 March 1985 in reply to Questions Nos. 377, 378 and 379, by Deputies Aylward and De Rossa, my responsibility is to ensure development of the natural gas grid in accordance with sound commercial principles.

While Kilkenny Gas have indicated their intention to close, I have no information to suggest that failure by the industry concerned to procure access to natural gas would jeopardise them and their workforce. They have consistently maintained that in the absence of agreement on a supply of natural gas, they would have a viable alternative in a switch to coal.

Could the Minister indicate with whom negotiations are continuing for the supply of natural gas or could he confirm after such a long period whether he intends to grant a supply of natural gas to Kilkenny?

Government policy is that the price of gas must reflect its inherent value as a substitute for imported oil and that is the basis of negotiations with any of the gas utilities, either public or private, in relation to the supply of gas for their area. Obviously there is a difficulty in relation to the project by the Kilkenny Gas Company and the large industrial user in that area. Discussions have been going on for a considerable time and I have made every effort to bring discussions to a satisfactory conclusion from the point of view of the Government and the taxpayer. Any subsidies must be borne by the taxpayers in every area of the country, not just the Kilkenny area. I have tried over the past 18 months to bring the negotiations to a conclusion but unfortunately that has not been possible.

Is the Minister aware that last Wednesday week the Joint Committee on Commercial State-Sponsored Bodies met representatives of Bord Gáis? In reply to a direct question by Deputy Reynolds the chief executive of Bord Gáis indicated that the provision of natural gas to Kilkenny was finished and that no further negotiations were taking place. He confirmed that position twice when the subject was pressed. I have the transcript in front of me.

"No gas for Kilkenny," he said.

I have not seen the transcript but the reply is correct. Many months ago I informed the proprietor of the Kilkenny Gas Company at meetings I had with him of the difficulties we were encountering. I have maintained Government policy in relation to the sale of gas. Only within that framework can a satisfactory agreement be reached. If the proprietors of the Kilkenny Gas Company and the substantial private commercial company which could have had a possibility of using gas wish to renegotiate, then Bord Gáis Éireann and the Department will try to facilitate them.

It is obvious that the Minister is not in contact with members of his own Department since the assistant secretary was also represented at the meeting. It was emphasised on two occasions that there would not be a supply of natural gas to Kilkenny and the reasons were given. Smithwicks Brewery have decided to opt for coal and Kilkenny as an entity was too small.

There will be an opportunity for debating the reports later on.

I am entitled to know once and for all whether Kilkenny city and Smithwicks Brewery are to get a supply of natural gas. Will the Minister indicate with whom negotiations are taking place? Is it between Bord Gáis and Smithwicks? The chief executive officer has said that negotiations are no longer taking place. Will the Minister confirm that? We have a new format for Question Time but we are still not getting answers.

I have already answered the first part of the question and said that if Kilkenny Gas Company and the industry in the area which has expressed interest in acquiring a supply of natural gas can reach agreement with Bord Gáis Éireann and the Department of Energy in relation to a pricing structure which will fit into the guidelines for the distribution of natural gas, there will not be any difficulty.

Does the Minister accept that the chief executive officer of An Bord Gáis in the presence of the assistant secretary of the Department of Energy was telling the truth?

We cannot hold an appeal here on something that is being tried elsewhere.

Does the Minister accept that?

This is a private company. There are 700 customers involved and it is a large industry. In view of that would the Minister consider taking it into State ownership as part of his overall nationalisation plan for the gas industry seeing that he took over the private one in Cork to get his other friends out of their problems?

That is a separate question.

I suppose when they are low enough the Minister will take them for nothing.