asked the Minister for Social Welfare if she intends to make any changes in the near future in the administration of the Social Welfare Acts to reduce absenteeism; and the estimated extent of absenteeism in respect of those claiming disability benefit.

23.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare if she intends to make any changes in the near future in the administration of the Social Welfare Acts to reduce absenteeism; and the estimated extent of absenteeism in respect of those claiming disability benefit.

I propose to take Questions Nos. 16 and 23 together. The Taoiseach, in his statement on Employment and Tax Reform on 23 October last, stated that the Government were considering proposals for the overhaul of the disability benefit scheme with a view to reducing the costs of absenteeism and he indicated that the National Economic and Social Council would be consulted. The views of the council have now been received and will be put to the Government shortly with a view to involving employer and trade union representatives in drawing up a scheme whereby employers would become responsible for sick pay provision for an initial period of ten weeks and entitlement to disability benefit in respect of that period would cease.

No statistics are available which would indicate the extent to which absenteeism is a factor in the case of those claiming disability benefit.

Is the Minister saying that the National Economic and Social Council report recommended that the system of payments for disability benefit should be altered?

No; I said that the National Economic and Social Council have put their views to my Department and these will be forwarded shortly to the Government. Then the employer and trade union interests will be involved.

Why did the Government follow the Taoiseach's statement of 23 October by putting this problem to the council? Was it an attempt to reduce absenteeism or, more specifically, an attempt to reduce the cost to the Exchequer of short term disability benefit claims, that is, those under ten weeks' duration?

At present about 77,000 people receive disability benefit in any given week. Approximately 280,000 claims are received annually. Expenditure on the scheme for 1985, including pay-related benefit, is estimated at about £230 million. A significant number of claims to benefit come from employees whose companies have sick pay schemes and complicated arrangements are made by employers to ensure that such employees are not paid on the double. Employers take account of disability benefit within their company sick pay schemes in different ways. The method chosen can have an influence on the level of take-home pay while a person is sick. As I have stated, these matters are at a very initial discussion stage. Many views have to be obtained and many organisations, representing employers and trade unions, have to be involved. It is hard to say at present what will come at the end of all the discussions.

A final supplementary question.

Out of a total of 77,762 people who claim disability benefit each week, I am led to believe that approximately 21,000 would have claims for a period of less than ten weeks, which is the time in question. Have the Minister's Department any convincing evidence concerning alterations made in the payment of short term disability benefit in other countries as to whether absenteeism has been reduced as a result? For example, have they researched the figures for short term claims in the United Kingdom? I gather that, for the past year, claims for under ten week's duration have been paid by employers. Secondly, if a decision is taken to change the system of payment of disability benefits involving a duration of ten weeks, will his Department take cognisance of the fact that companies which employ a large number of employees could cope with payments for such claims much more easily than would companies with a small number of employees?

Many of the points raised by the Deputy would fall within the ambit of the talks which will be carried on over a period of time. The Government see definite advantages in their proposals for all the parties concerned. All employees would have a clear-cut and easily understood entitlement to continuation of wages for all but long term illnesses. At present only about 60 per cent of workers are covered by occupational sick pay schemes.

I put down a Private Notice Question asking if the Minister for Finance is aware of the serious unrest and concern amongst the tourist interests in south west Kerry as a result of a decision to close the Skellig Rock to the public during the 1986 tourist season; if he would make a statement on the matter, having regard to the loss of employment and income for the area as a result of his proposal. I was informed by the Chair's Office that this question was ruled out of order.

I have already indicated to the Deputy the reasons for disallowance of the question. Neither the reasons nor the question can be further discussed in the House. However, if the Deputy wishes to discuss it with me in my office he will be only too welcome to come to the office.

It is very hard to understand——

You cannot question my ruling.

This is a most urgent matter.

You are longer in the House than I am and must be only too well aware that when a Private Notice Question has been disallowed and the reasons given, the Chair cannot be questioned on the reasons for the disallowance.

About 20 people are employed here and about 6,000 tourists a year visit the rock.

Deputy O'Leary, you are out of order. You know that better than I do. I have indicated in my letter the reason for the disallowance and you should accept the ruling of the Chair and not enter into an argument.

I am being very reasonable.

You are not being reasonable because you continue to criticise the Chair.

I am being reasonable.

You continue to criticise the Chair for disallowing the question. If you wish to discuss the matter with me or raise it on the Adjournment, I shall communicate with you. You cannot discuss it any further.

I intend to raise this matter on the Adjournment.

I shall communicate with the Deputy.