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Dáil
‹ Order of Business

Health Department resignation controversy

Summary

Deputy Martin protests the lack of an opportunity to question the Minister for Health about Deputy Shortall’s resignation, while the Taoiseach defends the Government’s handling. Deputy Adams also asks about the new Minister of State’s primary-care powers and whether the programme for Government will change; the Taoiseach says primary care is not a separately defined statutory responsibility.

We would have wished to have had the opportunity to oppose the Order of Business and we are disappointed that this opportunity has not been facilitated. I asked the Taoiseach earlier if the Minister for Health would come to the Dáil to speak about the serious issues within his own Department, particularly in the context of the resignation of the former Minister of State, Deputy Shortall, which is, by any standards, an issue of national importance, particularly as she outlined at the weekend the difficulties in following through on the programme for Government, the degree to which any worthy initiatives were blocked by the Minister-----

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

I thank the Deputy. We cannot discuss that now.

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-----and the degree to which we could again have a balanced budget this year if the Minister had followed through on the commitments that he gave to big ticket items.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Perhaps the Deputy will stick to what he can speak about on the Order of Business.

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I have to say to the Ceann Comhairle-----

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

No, the Deputy does not have to.

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------it is an extraordinary situation that everybody outside the House is discussing the House-----

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

There are plenty of other ways besides this.

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Every radio station is talking about it and we do not have an opportunity to have a private notice question accepted, which would have allowed for a detailed presentation by the Minister of his position and his perspective in the aftermath of the resignation of a Minister of State in his Department. This significant controversy has been under way for some weeks. On occasion in previous Dáileanna, Ministers were inevitably brought in and asked to respond to a private notice question. That was always the standard.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

The Standing Order relating to private notice questions is quite clear.

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Bernard Durkan Deputy Bernard J. Durkan Fine Gael

The Deputy is mixed up.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

I am not denying the Deputy any opportunities. The Standing Orders are quite clear about private notice questions and I only stick to the wording in the Standing Orders. Therefore, please get on and deal with what we can deal with.

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This controversy has raged for weeks.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Maybe so, but I am not interested in dealing with controversies.

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The Deputy is getting a good bit of mileage out of it.

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The bottom line is the story has changed time and time again.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

There are other ways of dealing with it.

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A Minister of State has resigned and it is extraordinary that we do not have an opportunity following a frank interview by her-----

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

There are plenty of other ways of trying to raise it.

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-----to ask the Minister for Health some basic questions and hope to get some straightforward answers.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

I ask the Deputy to co-operate with the Chair.

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As a political party, we are annoyed and extremely angry at this turn of events-----

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Bernard Durkan Deputy Bernard J. Durkan Fine Gael

The Deputy is showing it.

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-----and at the failure of the Minister to come in and account for it.

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It is a pity Fianna Fáil did not have these principles when it was in government.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

I have asked the Deputy please-----

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What seems to be happening is that a very partisan approach is being taken. I just counted the opportunities the Opposition gets in the House and they are few.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Will the Deputy please adhere to what I have asked him to adhere to?

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Very little opportunity is afforded to the Opposition in this Dáil. Despite all the talk and protestations about reform, transparency and openness, it has not been forthcoming since the Government has taken up office.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

I will not ask the Deputy a third time to please resume his seat if he has not something in order on the Order of Business.

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I find it extraordinary that we are in this situation today where the Minister for Health will not come in and, for a minimum of time, make a presentation on the issues that have unfolded.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Will the Deputy resume his seat?

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This could have been avoided if the private notice question-----

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

I call Deputy Adams.

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We have gone through all the procedures and we have been shot down in this regard in an unfair way.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

The Deputy referred to the Chair as acting in an unfair way and I ask him to withdraw that remark forthwith.

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No, I did not. I am not withdrawing any remark.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

The Deputy implied in his statement that he was treated unfairly by me because I did not grant a private notice question. I ask him to withdraw that remark.

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I am not withdrawing any remark. I asked earlier-----

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

It is a matter for the Chair to interpret the Standing Orders adopted by this House. The Standing Orders are quite clear about the granting of a private notice question. The Deputy's request did not conform with those requirements and, therefore, it is not a matter of being fair or unfair.

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On a point of order, I asked-----

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

And I take grave exception to the manner in which the------

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The Ceann Comhairle is making comments-----

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Will the Deputy please resume his seat?

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I asked the Taoiseach on the Order of the House today at Leaders' Questions to facilitate and provide for the Minister for Health----

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

The Deputy may be looking at the press but I am telling him what the Standing Orders say.

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I know well what the Standing Orders are.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

Has Deputy Adams got a question?

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I am putting it clearly to the Chair in my opinion and I outlined what our party believes.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

The Deputy is quite entitled to table a motion.

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The Fianna Fáil Party believes that the way the House is being managed and the facility being afforded to the Opposition is not fair or satisfactory.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

If the Deputy does not have confidence in my chairmanship, he has a means of dealing with it. All he has to do is table the motion.

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What is unfolding here is a ridiculous scenario.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

The Deputy is quite entitled to table a motion.

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Ceist faoi reachtaíocht atá fógraithe. I wish the Minister of State, Teachta Alex White, well in his new position.

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Fair play to the Deputy. He has manners that others do not.

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I wish him luck. He will need all the luck he can get, given the way Deputy Shortall was dealt with. The new Minister of State has a hard job to do and I wish him luck with it.

Last week, Deputy MacDonald asked the Taoiseach whether statutory power for primary care had been delegated to the former Minister of State, Deputy Shortall, and he replied that he thought that it had not been.

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

This is not in order on the Order of Business. I am sorry.

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I think it is but I will be bound by the Chair's instruction. Will the Taoiseach confirm whether statutory power for primary care has been delegated to the new Minister of State, Deputy White, or whether the Government plans to bring forward such a statutory instrument? Has the programme for Government been changed, given Deputy Shortall's assertion that it is not being implemented? Does the Government intend to bring forward amendments to it?

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Seán Barrett An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

That is not a matter for the Order of Business.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I have no time for the false anger of Deputy Martin. In spite of the charge he made, the first Priority Question taken by the Minister for Health last Thursday-----

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Late at night and he misled the House.

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Bernard Durkan Deputy Bernard J. Durkan Fine Gael

Why was Deputy Martin not present?

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

-----was asked by Deputy Kelleher and dealt with the issue of primary care centres. The Minister gave his answer.

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He misled the House.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I further remind the Deputy that the first Private Members' business following the recess was a motion of no confidence in the Minister for Health and he did not even bother to contribute to that debate.

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Some of the Taoiseach's Labour Party colleagues did and they are not too happy now.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

With regard to Deputy Adams's question, primary care is not based on a particular statute and cannot be delegated in the normal way-----

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Of course it can. If the Government wants to, it can but it chooses not to.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

------because it crosses many areas in the Department of Health and other Departments.

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It might interfere with the Minister's portfolio.

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Enda Kenny The Taoiseach Fine Gael

From that perspective, we do not have a defined area of primary care because it is not based on a particular statute.

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