The Taoiseach may recall how, on last Wednesday's Order of Business, I put to him the comments of the HSE's national director of acute hospitals, Mr. Ian Carter, who warned of further dysfunction if the Government kept taking money out of the system. I raised that issue in the context of the Health Service Executive (financial matters) Bill. I was asking the Taoiseach basic questions about the €666 million that had been cited in the previous day's budget as the amount of savings to be effected in health. I explained to the Taoiseach that there had been a press conference after the budget in which the Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, did not explain properly from where all of those savings would come.

I then asked the Taoiseach if the figures had been signed off by the director of the Health Service Executive. I asked if they stood over the figures and the Taoiseach said "Of course". We now know, however, that the director of the HSE did not stand over the figures. I want the Taoiseach to correct the record because he misled the House in that regard. Perhaps he thought they had, but they clearly had not because at a meeting of the Joint Committee on Health and Children on the Thursday it was made clear by the HSE director that there would have to be independent verification of the €666 million figure, and in particular of the €113 million that had been put in for probity. Therefore he had not signed off on it. It is unprecedented, and I have never witnessed it before, for a budget to be presented to the House and a formal mechanism put in place to provide for a post-budget independent verification of the figures.

The situation was clouded even more yesterday by the Minister, Deputy Reilly, who is saying that he does not know whether it is between €666 million or €1 billion. He said that is what the independent verification is all about. He said that officials from the Department of the Taoiseach and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform are coming in to independently verify the figures. He says their job is to verify whether it is €666 million or €1 billion. On Saturday, The Irish Times reported that it was €1 billion. Obviously, the Department of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, has been leaking fairly hard against the Minister for Health. Today's Irish Independent reports that the Minister for Health sought €1 billion and went out minus €1 billion, all in the space of 24 hours.

Will the Taoiseach correct the record of the House concerning his statement that the HSE's director had signed off on this health Estimate? Where does the health Estimate stand now?

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle-----

Deputy Kehoe is not the Leas-Cheann Comhairle and should not try to be.

Deputy Martin's question is out of order.

My understanding is that this is to do with the record of the House.

Yes, I am trying to correct the record of the House.

I must ask the Taoiseach to reply.

I am also trying to raise a legislative matter. This is an important matter under Standing Orders concerning a budget that was prepared for the House. Whenever Estimates are published-----

They have been passed by the House too.

They have not, actually. They have to be independently verified.

We cannot have this debate now.

That is my point. Does Deputy Stagg not get it?

The Deputy has put a question to the Taoiseach and I want to call the Taoiseach to reply.

I will seek the guidance of the Leas-Cheann Comhairle on this.

Yes.

I have never before come across a situation where budget figures are put before the House and passed, yet two days later we are told by all the authorities involved that they are not the real figures because they have not been verified.

Nobody is saying that.

Yes. The HSE's director has said it and so has the Minister, Deputy Reilly. The Minister said that with the help of the Department of the Taoiseach and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, they would verify whether it is €666 million or €1 billion.

That is something the Deputy never did.

The point is that the House was presented by Ministers with a solemn budget that contained the €666 million figure. Is the figure €666 million or €1 billion? Which is it?

I call the Taoiseach.

Can the Taoiseach answer that question and say when the legislation will be published?

We are not having the budget debate today, but there is an issue concerning the record of the House.

Sometimes there is a lot of noise in here, which means it is difficult to pick up individual comments.

What does the Taoiseach mean by that?

Sometimes it is difficult to hear when the Deputy interrupts and people are shouting.

There were no interruptions when I asked the question.

The Taoiseach tries to clog it up but there was absolutely no interruption when I asked the question.

Order, please.

I asked the Taoiseach a straight question and there was no noise.

Can I have order for the Taoiseach, please?

The figures in this budget have been signed off collectively by the Government. As regards the Vote for the Department of Health, the Health Service Executive must prepare a service plan based on those figures and come back to the Minister for Health in the next three to four weeks. I expect everybody involved in the Department and the HSE to work assiduously on the production of that service plan. The figures therein are challenging but they are achievable.

The Minister has said that he has to verify them independently.

We are getting different messages from the Government. The Minister is saying that he is not standing over the figure of €666 million.

We are not having a debate on the budget now. Deputy Martin should resume his seat.

The HSE director is not standing over the figures either.

Does the Deputy remember what happened when he was there?

The Chair is on its feet. The Deputy should resume his seat. I ask the Taoiseach to conclude on this.

The situation is that the Government decided collectively on the figures in the budget and those figures stand. The figures in respect of the Department of Health are as outlined in the budget. The Health Service Executive must prepare a service plan based on those figures and report on that plan to the Minister in the next three to four weeks. That work is ongoing. The figures are challenging but they are achievable. They are in the interests of dealing with the reduction of costs and the provision of services. The overall budget is based on our country getting out of the bailout by the end of November or December.

If Deputy Martin took me up wrongly, or if I said that the people had signed off on the figures-----

The Taoiseach did.

-----then I wish to correct the record. I am saying that the Government signed off on the figures and the Health Service Executive must prepare a service plan based on those figures. I hope there is no ambiguity about that.

To clarify, when I asked the Taoiseach, he said, "Of course, they stand over the figures".

Order please. I call Deputy Adams.