It is proposed to take No. 3, Local Government Bill 2013 - Order for Second Stage and Second Stage. It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the next fortnightly Friday, for the purposes of Standing Orders 88(2) and 117A, shall be Friday, 8 November 2013, the time and date by which notice of a committee report or Bill in connection with that sitting shall be received by the Clerk shall be 11 a.m. on Friday, 25 October 2013, and related Standing Orders shall apply accordingly. Private Members' business shall be No. 121, motion re older citizens.

Is the proposal for dealing with the sitting and business of the Dáil on Friday, 8 November, agreed to?

About what will it be?

Friday, 8 November will be on a Private Members' Bill.

As well as a committee report on that day.

I am demonstrating a bit of vigilance.

Is the proposal agreed to? Agreed.

The Taoiseach may recall how, on last Wednesday's Order of Business, I put to him the comments of the HSE's national director of acute hospitals, Mr. Ian Carter, who warned of further dysfunction if the Government kept taking money out of the system. I raised that issue in the context of the Health Service Executive (financial matters) Bill. I was asking the Taoiseach basic questions about the €666 million that had been cited in the previous day's budget as the amount of savings to be effected in health. I explained to the Taoiseach that there had been a press conference after the budget in which the Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, did not explain properly from where all of those savings would come.

I then asked the Taoiseach if the figures had been signed off by the director of the Health Service Executive. I asked if they stood over the figures and the Taoiseach said "Of course". We now know, however, that the director of the HSE did not stand over the figures. I want the Taoiseach to correct the record because he misled the House in that regard. Perhaps he thought they had, but they clearly had not because at a meeting of the Joint Committee on Health and Children on the Thursday it was made clear by the HSE director that there would have to be independent verification of the €666 million figure, and in particular of the €113 million that had been put in for probity. Therefore he had not signed off on it. It is unprecedented, and I have never witnessed it before, for a budget to be presented to the House and a formal mechanism put in place to provide for a post-budget independent verification of the figures.

The situation was clouded even more yesterday by the Minister, Deputy Reilly, who is saying that he does not know whether it is between €666 million or €1 billion. He said that is what the independent verification is all about. He said that officials from the Department of the Taoiseach and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform are coming in to independently verify the figures. He says their job is to verify whether it is €666 million or €1 billion. On Saturday, The Irish Times reported that it was €1 billion. Obviously, the Department of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, has been leaking fairly hard against the Minister for Health. Today's Irish Independent reports that the Minister for Health sought €1 billion and went out minus €1 billion, all in the space of 24 hours.

Will the Taoiseach correct the record of the House concerning his statement that the HSE's director had signed off on this health Estimate? Where does the health Estimate stand now?

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle-----

Deputy Kehoe is not the Leas-Cheann Comhairle and should not try to be.

Deputy Martin's question is out of order.

My understanding is that this is to do with the record of the House.

Yes, I am trying to correct the record of the House.

I must ask the Taoiseach to reply.

I am also trying to raise a legislative matter. This is an important matter under Standing Orders concerning a budget that was prepared for the House. Whenever Estimates are published-----

They have been passed by the House too.

They have not, actually. They have to be independently verified.

We cannot have this debate now.

That is my point. Does Deputy Stagg not get it?

The Deputy has put a question to the Taoiseach and I want to call the Taoiseach to reply.

I will seek the guidance of the Leas-Cheann Comhairle on this.

Yes.

I have never before come across a situation where budget figures are put before the House and passed, yet two days later we are told by all the authorities involved that they are not the real figures because they have not been verified.

Nobody is saying that.

Yes. The HSE's director has said it and so has the Minister, Deputy Reilly. The Minister said that with the help of the Department of the Taoiseach and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, they would verify whether it is €666 million or €1 billion.

That is something the Deputy never did.

The point is that the House was presented by Ministers with a solemn budget that contained the €666 million figure. Is the figure €666 million or €1 billion? Which is it?

I call the Taoiseach.

Can the Taoiseach answer that question and say when the legislation will be published?

We are not having the budget debate today, but there is an issue concerning the record of the House.

Sometimes there is a lot of noise in here, which means it is difficult to pick up individual comments.

What does the Taoiseach mean by that?

Sometimes it is difficult to hear when the Deputy interrupts and people are shouting.

There were no interruptions when I asked the question.

The Taoiseach tries to clog it up but there was absolutely no interruption when I asked the question.

Order, please.

I asked the Taoiseach a straight question and there was no noise.

Can I have order for the Taoiseach, please?

The figures in this budget have been signed off collectively by the Government. As regards the Vote for the Department of Health, the Health Service Executive must prepare a service plan based on those figures and come back to the Minister for Health in the next three to four weeks. I expect everybody involved in the Department and the HSE to work assiduously on the production of that service plan. The figures therein are challenging but they are achievable.

The Minister has said that he has to verify them independently.

We are getting different messages from the Government. The Minister is saying that he is not standing over the figure of €666 million.

We are not having a debate on the budget now. Deputy Martin should resume his seat.

The HSE director is not standing over the figures either.

Does the Deputy remember what happened when he was there?

The Chair is on its feet. The Deputy should resume his seat. I ask the Taoiseach to conclude on this.

The situation is that the Government decided collectively on the figures in the budget and those figures stand. The figures in respect of the Department of Health are as outlined in the budget. The Health Service Executive must prepare a service plan based on those figures and report on that plan to the Minister in the next three to four weeks. That work is ongoing. The figures are challenging but they are achievable. They are in the interests of dealing with the reduction of costs and the provision of services. The overall budget is based on our country getting out of the bailout by the end of November or December.

If Deputy Martin took me up wrongly, or if I said that the people had signed off on the figures-----

The Taoiseach did.

-----then I wish to correct the record. I am saying that the Government signed off on the figures and the Health Service Executive must prepare a service plan based on those figures. I hope there is no ambiguity about that.

To clarify, when I asked the Taoiseach, he said, "Of course, they stand over the figures".

Order please. I call Deputy Adams.

I understand the Department of Social Protection must do a social impact assessment of the budget. Has that assessment commenced and, if so, when do we expect to have it? Is the Taoiseach aware that the European Commission has criticised the fact that these assessments, which are quite limited, are done after the budget as opposed to before it? The assessment does not include budgetary measures, such as health and education, and the impact of indirect taxes. Will the Government consider the criticism from the European Commission? Will the Taoiseach let us know when and if the Department of Social Protection is going to do a social impact assessment of the budget?

I note the comments from Commissioner Rehn, the ESRI and the independent Fiscal Advisory Council in respect of the decisions made by the Government and the general thrust of the budget as we move towards an exit from the bailout. At its Cabinet meeting this morning, the Government approved the publication of the Social Welfare and Pensions Bill. Deputy Adams will have plenty of time to comment on that Bill and the issues contained therein. The Government has approved the Social Welfare and Pensions Bill and the Vote for the Department of Social Protection has been signed off on collectively by the Government, as it has also done in respect of all other Departments.

The Taoiseach avoided the question I asked, which was whether the Department of Social Protection would do a social impact assessment of the budget. If so, when can we expect to have it?

This is not Question Time.

We always do an analysis of Bills going through and an analysis of the consequences of every budget. That is normal practice. The Government has signed off on it and agreed this morning that the Social Welfare and Pensions Bill will be published shortly by the Minister for Social Protection. The debate will then commence in the House.

When can we expect the social impact assessment?

When is it expected to publish the civil registration (amendment) Bill to amend the Civil Registration Act 2004, following a review of its operations, including provision of the compulsory registration of fathers' names on birth certificates, validation of embassy marriages, civil partnerships, the prevention of marriages of convenience and the registration of deaths of Irish people who die abroad.

The heads of that Bill were approved in July. The Bill is expected to be published early next year.

My question concerns promised legislation. An electronic media outlet proposes to reintroduce the broadcasting of sadistic and gratuitous acts of violence and what could be termed as pornography, which is deemed to shock people and condition them to an acceptance of that type of violence, including decapitation.

Would it be possible to deal with this in the context of the criminal justice (cybercrime) Bill? If not, perhaps other alternatives might be considered?

It is a matter of concern to a number of people. I do not have a date for publication of the criminal justice (cybercrime) Bill. I will advise the Deputy of progress made on it.

The Taoiseach will be aware that subcontractors have suffered tremendously over recent years as a result of the recession. Many of them have been at the mercy of ruthless contractors in terms of payment. I spoke today to a subcontractor who is working for a contractor working directly for the Department of Education and Skills. He told me that a €160,000 payment has been withheld from him, resulting in him having to let people go and a loss of access to credit by him. The relevant legislation has been three years in the making and has not yet been enacted. Given the pressure on these individuals when will that legislation be enacted? Will the Taoiseach ensure it is enacted as soon as possible to take the pressure off subcontractors?

As far as I am aware, the legislation was enacted on 29 July. Unless a commencement order is required, the Bill which was signed by the President, should be effective.

I have been told by individuals in the Department that it has not yet been enacted and will not be enacted until some time next year.

The Bill has been already signed by the President.

As far as I know, it was signed by the President on 29 July.

It is functional?

Yes.

Last night, the Fennessy family appeared on "Prime Time" pleading on their own behalf and that of five other families for the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Fitzgerald, to intervene in relation to Russian adoptions. What does the Government propose to do to resolve this matter? Will the Taoiseach commit today to amend the Adoption Act 2010?

The National Vetting Bureau (Children and Vulnerable Persons) Act 2012 was passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas eight months ago but is still awaiting ministerial instruction in terms of enactment. The absence of vetting legislation in regard to soft information seriously compromises our child protection system. What is the reason for the delay in enacting this legislation? What is the reason the Minister, Deputy Shatter, has not commenced this Act during the past eight months?

I do not know the reason. The Minister, Deputy Shatter, is always diligent in commencing legislation. I will inquire as to the reason for the delay and advise the Deputy accordingly.

The Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Fitzgerald, is considering what is the best thing to do in the context of the adoption legislation referred to by the Deputy. I am aware of the decision by the Russians not to-----

The deadline is 31 October 2013.

I am aware of that.

The Social Welfare and Pensions Bill 2013 is scheduled for discussion this week. I understand the Bill will not be circulated until tomorrow. Perhaps the Taoiseach will confirm if that is the case.

While I welcome the Taoiseach's commitment to tackling welfare dependency, the budget for which is €20 billion, does he consider adequate the allocation, as provided for in the Dáil schedule for this week, of only nine hours and 35 minutes to debate that Bill in the context of the measures it introduces as per budget 2014? The Taoiseach, when in Opposition in 2009, condemned the idea of, to use his words, "the social welfare Bill being bulldozed through the Dáil in two days".

A woman scorned.

The Government is only allocating one hour in which to debate each €2 billion of taxpayers' money, which I do not believe is adequate.

It is important, in the context of the way in which we deal with legislation, that adequate time is provided for people to voice their opinions on legislation. The Government approved the social welfare and pensions Bill 2013 this morning. It will be published tomorrow. The Whip understands the necessity for people to have an opportunity to comment on Bills. However, we do not want to play games and to provide additional time for the sake of it. If the Opposition Whips are prepared to discuss with the Minister the timeline required, the Government Whip will be as generous as possible. However, we cannot allow measures to be dragged out unduly, with people seeking additional time for the sake of saying they secured it.

There will be no guillotine.

The Whip will be as flexible and as generous as needs be. We do not want the debate to drag on interminably.

On that point, I raised this matter last week with the Tánaiste. The Taoiseach has said the Whip will be as generous as possible. The bottom line is that the Whips were told that Second and Committee Stages would be taken on Thursday and Friday and that they could make up their minds in regard to how much time they wished to spend on Second and Committee Stages, respectively.

It is the view of most Opposition parties that Second Stage should be taken this week, with Committee Stage not being taken until such time as Members have had time to reflect on the Second Stage debate. There is no rush in respect of this Bill. The only reason advanced for this by the Whip was that the legislation might be held up in the Seanad.

That was never said.

It was said to the Whips that the fear was that the Bill, because of the Government's difficulties with the Seanad, would be delayed by it. That is no basis for how debate on a Bill should be scheduled. There has been much talk about Dáil reform and the Seanad referendum is over. We were promised reform of the Dáil and the Government is again rushing through the social welfare and pensions Bill on Thursday and Friday. What we are being offered is a Hobson's choice of a five hour Second Stage debate and a three hour Committee Stage debate. There is no need for it.

There are six other Deputies offering and only 11 minutes remaining.

I would like clarification on a matter.

I call the Taoiseach to respond to the questions asked.

It is not true that the Bill is being guillotined. I am not in the business of wanting to guillotine Bills. Members will have plenty of time to argue their points and state their case. This is an important Bill that affects many people in terms of the changes being introduced.

Yes, and in a negative way.

We do not want debate on the Bill to be dragged out. There is a great deal of legislation waiting to go through the Houses. The Whip has asked the other Whips to consider the timescale set out and to engage constructively with him in that regard. The response will be on that basis. We must get Bills through.

Is the Government open to amendments?

We will allow people to have their say.

The Bill does not have to go through this week.

The Bill does not have to go through this week.A Leas-Cheann Comhairle-----

I am not allowing Deputies in again. I call Deputy Healy-Rae.

In fairness, it is important to those of us who do not officially have a Whip and wish to contribute to the debate on the social welfare and pensions Bill that the Taoiseach clarifies that we will have an opportunity to speak on the Bill and that debate on it will not be guillotined on Friday.

Hear, hear.

It is important that any Member who wishes to contribute to the Second and Committee Stage debates has an opportunity to do so.

Hear, hear.

The Deputy has made her point adequately. I call Deputy Healy-Rae.

As I said, the Whip will be as generous as possible.

That means nothing to us. The idea of the Minister of State, Deputy Kehoe, being generous-----

We are not going to drag out debate on the Bill interminably.

The division is becoming greater.

Order, please. I call Deputy Healy-Rae.

I wish to ask about two items in the context of the programme for Government. Earlier today, an elderly lady protesting outside the House took ill and had to be assisted by the Garda Síochána. Like many thousands of elderly people from throughout the country, the lady concerned had come here to protest at this Government's handling of issues relating to older people.

To what Bill does that issue relate?

I am speaking about what was committed to in the programme for Government. If the Deputy wishes, I will remind him of the promises which he and his colleagues, including the Taoiseach, made to the elderly people of this State.

What promises?

The Deputy can raise that issue another time.

I want to ask the Taoiseach-----

We were here when the Deputy's father was making promises day in and day out.

What answers does the Taoiseach have for the people outside the House today?

The Deputy should ask his father.

Does the Deputy have another issue to raise?

The Government has broken all of its promises.

What did the Deputy sign up to?

My second question relates to the Local Government Bill 2013. The Seanad debacle, for which this Government was responsible, was a case of the people having their say.

Is there any hope that the Taoiseach and his colleagues will reconsider the Local Government Bill 2013 and give the people in towns the opportunity to decide for themselves, by means of a plebiscite, whether they want to have town councils? That is all I am asking. Let democracy work. If I am wrong and the Taoiseach is right, well and good, but we should let the people decide like they decided about the Seanad.

We will not go back over that.

The Taoiseach thought he was right on the Seanad, but he was wrong and so were his colleagues.

I call the Taoiseach.

I hope that the good lady who took ill is well and was properly looked after, and that she makes a full recovery. We have gone past the stage of what the Deputy has called for. The Bill is in the House and will proceed. As the seanfhocal used to say, "in your father's time", there were secret deals signed between him and the Government about which nobody knew anything. At least we now know, with openness and transparency, what is involved here.

I call Deputy Fitzpatrick.

If the Taoiseach thinks he can make that swipe and get away with it, we are talking about a man that had a respectable track record and did a lot of good things for a lot of people and who never misled anybody.

I never made any comment in contrary to the good man's character.

That is okay, but let us be very clear on that.

In fact, he and I were very good friends, but while we were good friends, he never divulged to me the secrets of Fatima contained in that document.

It is a good job that he delivered, because the fellows with the Taoiseach would not deliver a bag of eggs.

One marina on top of a mountain.

We are nearly out of time. I call Deputy Fitzpatrick.

When he opened the filling station in Glenbeigh, he delivered one of the finest speeches I had heard in donkey's years.

When can we expect the publication of the radiological protection Bill? This will put in place the legislative basis required for the merger of the RPI with the EPA and to ensure that Irish legislation is compatible with the terms of the convention on physical protection of nuclear material and nuclear facilities, and that Ireland may ratify this convention.

The heads of that Bill were cleared in July and the Bill will be published early next year.

Perhaps the Taoiseach might advise the House about the Narrow Water bridge project and where it stands now. Can we expect it will proceed or what exactly is the position?

Unfortunately, many businesses are being wound up around the country for obvious reasons. Local authorities appear to have a difficulty on rates arrears and there are constraints on local authority accounts departments to negotiate these arrears. They claim that the legislative position is that they are not allowed to reduce the rates bill where representatives of businesses in distress are prepared to negotiate the figure with them. Perhaps the Taoiseach might look at that.

The time is fast approaching for a decision in respect of the European element of funding for the Narrow Water bridge. There have been discussions between Newry and Mourne Council and Louth County Council, the Executive and the Government here. We have always supported this in principle. The Deputy is aware of the estimate for provision of the bridge, but the tender which came in was very much in excess of that estimate. The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform discussed the issue recently and discussions are still ongoing.

The question about arrears on rates should be raised during the debate on the Local Government Bill 2013. In my time on a local authority, rates bills could always be dealt with by local authorities and there used to be an opportunity at that time to cut a deal, depending on the circumstances in which an individual retailer or commercial business would find themselves. I suggest the Deputy raises it as part of his contribution to the debate on the Bill when it is before the House.

Where stands the Valuation (Amendment) (No.2) Bill 2012?

That is on Committee Stage in the Seanad.

Last week, the Minister for Finance came into this House and effectively drove a coach and four through the Government's health policy on the terms of universal health insurance by announcing a cap on the relief for premia for private health insurers. Given the commitment in the programme for Government that universal health insurance would be implemented, where lies the White Paper on universal health insurance? That is a central plank of the Government's policy, but the Minister for Finance seems to be undermining the taking out of health insurance, which is a policy statement of the Government of which he is a member.

The first step in the provision of universal health insurance is the free GP care for under fives. The White Paper on universal health insurance, leading towards universal health insurance, is to be published by the close of this year or very early in the new year.

Deputy Troy spoke about the amending legislation needed for the adoption Bill. The deadline is 31 October and I ask the Taoiseach to ensure that the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs and whoever else is involved would do that speedily to achieve the result for those five families.

I understand the challenge facing the Government on the overall budget, and particularly the social welfare budget, apropos the earlier discussion about the time needed to discuss it. The time is not just needed to discuss it because Deputies also need the time to explore and understand properly the underlying economic basis and assumptions for that social welfare Bill. They need to be discussed and it can be done in a generous amount of time, as the Taoiseach said. As Deputy Creighton pointed out, it is nine hours 35 minutes for €20.24 billion worth of expenditure and savings, and the underlying economic assumptions need to be explored and examined.

Long before the Deputy came in here, the late Deputy Vivion de Valera used to raise the question of the appropriations Bill going through in ten seconds every year, and the corresponding amount of money which was voted through without any debate at all. Second Stage is for general observations and issues about a Bill, whereas Committee Stage is for exploration and analysis. I have already said that the Whip will be as generous as possible in moving this along.

We do not want the cart before the horse.