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Dáil
‹ Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

All-party Covid response and social bubbles

Summary

Róisín Shortall criticises the lack of consultation and asks for an all-party approach, then challenges the rule on people living alone having no visitors and asks about sick pay and vulnerable workers. The Taoiseach defends the briefings and explains the extended-household bubble and existing income supports, but the Deputy remains unconvinced.

I have been asking the Taoiseach for some time now to consider taking an all-party approach to the response to Covid. It is really regrettable that he did not take up that proposal because we found ourselves yesterday in a situation in which a momentous decision was taken yet there was no consultation whatsoever with Opposition parties or party leaders, no sharing of data and no sharing of the modelling. That is really regrettable, and I think the response has been all the weaker for it. I repeat that request, that the Taoiseach consider such an approach, because over the next six weeks not only do we all have to work together to drive down the virus but we must also use that time to devise a coherent strategy in order that we do not have a third lockdown in January. That coherent strategy has to include proper testing and tracing, an all-island approach, testing at airports and, fundamentally, it has to entail all of us working together. I ask the Taoiseach to consider now some actions he might take, that is, to broaden the decision-making around all these issues to include a wider perspective and to consider doing so now in order to improve the balance of all the issues being taken into consideration and improve the prospect of success.

When one considers, for example, the all-day deliberations last Saturday, they were quite narrowly focused both in terms of the nine or ten principals involved in that decision-making, all being male and lacking a more balanced perspective, and also that the grouping was very much focused on the health perspective but also the mathematical modelling involved. While the figures are critical to this, there is also the issue of human nature. I am not aware of anybody with any kind of expertise in behavioural psychology being involved in any of the decision-making around this.

Two areas have shown the lack of balanced decision-making. The first is with regard to the proposal on having no visitors in homes. A large number of people of all age groups live alone. It is unreasonable to say to those people that they cannot have a single visitor to their homes. There are exempted categories but let us take as an example a 25-year-old or 30-year-old living on his or her own and possibly working from home. The Taoiseach is saying to such people that they cannot have a friend, boyfriend or girlfriend in to visit. That is completely unreasonable. The Government needs to revisit that and consider the wisdom of it because it does not take account of human behaviour.

The second area is related to vulnerable workers in nursing homes and meat factories, which is highly precarious employment. It is human nature that if someone is not covered by sick leave entitlement, he or she will go to work. We will, therefore, have a repeat of what happened earlier in the year when we had disasters in both those settings. Will the Taoiseach reconsider those two issues? They are not reasonable and do not take account of human behaviour. They need amendment in all reasonableness.

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I thank the Deputy for her comments. We had an all-party leaders' meeting last Monday week.

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No, that was a briefing.

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I met Deputy Shortall afterwards with Deputy Kelly. The Deputy was on the call and then left which is fair enough as it was a long meeting. People asked for a briefing the previous week. I believe the briefing was useful in dealing with the issues the Deputy has just raised, such as modelling and the Chief Medical Officer's and deputy Chief Medical Officer's perspectives on the issues. Mr. Paul Reid was there as CEO of the HSE. That briefing happened only last Monday week. I then spoke to party leaders later in the week, including Deputy Shortall's co-leader, Deputy Catherine Murphy. I spoke to Deputy McDonald about the situation in Northern Ireland and the move in Northern Ireland to the equivalent of our level 3. I spoke to the First Minister, the deputy First Minister and the leader of the SDLP - I did not get to speak to other leaders in the North - to see if we can get as close to a harmonisation of positions as we could, notwithstanding the different political sensitivities and realities and the two different jurisdictions. We must be a bit real about this. The word "glibly" is thrown around the House about an all-island response but we must recognise realities. I am not on the Northern Executive. The Northern Executive had its own challenges last week trying to get agreement. It got agreement but it was difficult, so the attempt to always apportion blame to the Government for lack of an all-island response is just not credible or tenable. That needs to be said. It is easy to talk but it is-----

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I did not say anything about blame.

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I am speaking generally and that is what is said.

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Will the Taoiseach answer the two questions I asked?

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I will answer the Deputy's questions. I did not interrupt her. I have time to answer her two questions but the Deputy mentioned an all-island approach. It is being tossed about the place that we should have an all-island approach and the Government should sort it. Parties in this House which are on the Northern Executive cannot sort it. We need to get real about it. There are political realities and sensitivities which the Northern Executive must deal with and which I endeavour to be political about in the sense of not politicising. I have always endeavoured not to politicise it.

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I have. If the Deputy asks the First Minister and deputy First Minister, they will say that. I understand the pressures they are under.

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Will the Taoiseach answer my questions?

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I will do everything I can them to support them in having to deal with what is a very serious situation for them and the people of Northern Ireland, as it is for the Republic.

On the issue of no visitors allowed to homes, that is the whole idea of the bubble. I am answering the question. The idea is that we do not have a person on his or her own who cannot have a connection with another household. The raison d'être in this regard is to reduce social isolation and that is why that measure was brought forward. Again, it stems from public health advice. Deputy Shortall should remember that at the beginning of this crisis she was very clear about the need to adhere to public health advice. It is the public health advice that put forward these provisions from the get-go because they want to avoid congregation and large crowds. They also believe that households have been one of the places where the disease has spread to the greatest degree.

On vulnerable workers and precarious employment, we have initiated a serial testing programme and the Tánaiste is working on bringing in greater supports for workers in that regard. He is engaging with the companies on matters such as sick pay, recruitment policies and giving greater security of tenure to these employees.

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I would appreciate the Taoiseach answering my questions rather than continuing his row with Sinn Féin. That has nothing to do with me. I asked him two questions. I asked him about the provisions whereby single people cannot have visitors to their homes. They cannot have even one visitor to their homes. That is unreasonable. The Government has made a very small number of exceptions to that rule in the case of high-risk individuals.

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No, that is not-----

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I am not talking about high-risk individuals.

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It is not high-risk------

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I am going by what is on the gov.ie website. I am talking about people who live alone, who may work at home and who are not allowed to have even a single visitor to their homes. That is what I want the Taoiseach to address, not the high-risk categories but regular people who live alone. What the Government is doing in this regard is unreasonable.

The second question relates to what people will inevitably do if they do not have cover for sick leave: they will continue to go to work because they cannot afford not to. As such, what is the Government doing now - not looking at something next year - to stop a repeat of what happened in nursing homes and meat factories earlier this year?

Finally, I have raised this many times with the Taoiseach but I must tell him that the messaging is really weak at the moment. That is because there is no attempt to win hearts and minds. The Government is not being seen as reasonable, it is not being seen as understanding human nature; it is taking the approach of imposing fines and penalties and that is a mistake.

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The Deputy misunderstands the social bubble. She has got it wrong. I hate saying that but it is just the reality.

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Will the Taoiseach send me a note on that because on the website it is different?

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I do not have to send the Deputy a note. What is proposed will allow persons living alone, parenting alone or similarly at risk of social isolation to pair with one other household as part of an extended household. This must be an exclusive bubble. For both households, this is their extended household and this will allow for social support beyond the provision of care exemptions already available so this is not in the context of-----

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The Taoiseach should look at the special categories.

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This is not in the context of special categories, it is in the context of ending social isolation.

On workers in vulnerable situations, we have dealt with that. We have communicated with those workers on the ground. There is the pandemic illness payment and we have made it very clear to them that they will not lose out on income if they come forward with symptoms, are tested, etc. That happened way back in the summer. As the Deputy knows, there has been a serial testing programme under way in meat plants for quite a long time. The positivity rate is very low and, as I have said many times in the House, that is the evidence from that.

I was not having a go at Sinn Féin when I mentioned the all-Ireland aspect in answering Deputy Shortall, because she wrote to me about the all-Ireland response. Everybody in the House has mentioned it, everybody outside the House mentions it and I just said that I need to put on the record of the House that it is easier said than done. Many people are responsible in the context of that and there are issues in the North that are different and have to be accepted.

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Will the Taoiseach send me a note because I do not think what he is saying is correct? Will he do that?

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