The Taoiseach was a member of the Bertie Ahern-led Government that brought in a gagging order, further compounding survivors' trauma caused by institutional abuse, and he admitted that that was a mistake. He can choose not to repeat the mistakes of the past today. If we pass the Commission of Investigation (Mother and Baby Homes and certain related Matters) Records, and another Matter Bill 2020 in its current form, the only question worth asking is whose interests are being served because the Taoiseach and I know it is not the interests of survivors. There is no closure without justice and there can be no justice if the State continues to hide information. The systems of the State have done enough damage and it is time for this to stop. Will the Taoiseach please stop it now?

I was a member of the Government that led the opening up of all the secrets to do with the industrial schools and gave the survivors of those industrial schools their voice.

With a gagging order around it.

I did that. As chairman of the interdepartmental committee that led-----

The Taoiseach said himself that it was a mistake.

-----to the inquiries, I spoke to the survivors. The Deputy should speak to the survivors, who will tell her how honestly I engaged with them.

Does the Taoiseach think they want these records to be sealed for 30 years?

With all due respect, I do not take lectures from anybody on that issue.

The Taoiseach without interruption, please.

I went beyond what most people wanted done at that time and did it-----

What about now?

-----in the interests of the survivors of industrial schools. I put a historian into the Department of Education at the time to go through all of the archives and to make them available to survivors in regard to their personal records. Some of them only saw them for the first time when they went to Athlone to the Department of Education and Science.

They are not available because they are about to be sealed for 30 years.

We are not going to seal these records either. That is not the agenda. Let us not try to undermine the good faith of people involved. The Minister is not trying to do that. Deputy Cairns knows there is an issue. The issue is if he does not act the records disappear for all time. That is his problem.

That is not true.

That is not the issue.

That is the issue.

The more fundamental issue is what one does with the records and how one releases them. The Deputy knows-----

It is not true that they will disappear.

I have no agenda to try to suppress records. Please do not suggest that.

Do not tell lies.

The Government is rushing the Bill through.

I ask the Taoiseach to resume his seat. Deputy Smith, do not accuse the Taoiseach of telling lies.

He needs to retract his statement that the records will disappear. They will not disappear.

This is not Deputy Bríd Smith's question. I will come to her in a minute. Please, have some respect for the House. The Taoiseach has dealt with Deputy Cairns's question.

No, he has not.

He has. It is not for Deputy Gannon to decide whether he has or has not.

He has not answered the question pertaining to these particular records.

It is one question from one Member.

The Taoiseach should answer the question.

He needs to consider an extension, as proposed by Deputy Pringle.

May I-----

No, you have said enough.

On a point of order, there has been a constitutional issue about access to records for a long time that predates this issue. People who are long-time Members of this House know that. The previous Minister for Children and Youth Affairs did not resolve it. There are two steps. We need to preserve the records in the first instance and ensure they do not get into jeopardy or get lost. That was the objective of the former Minister. The second step is how we make the records available to those who need them.

Not in this way. The Government needs to listen to the lawyers, the experts and the survivors.

I am for that.

Please let the Taoiseach answer.

I am asking the House to not try to undermine people's bona fides. I am not trying to seal anything. I have no interest in sealing any of the records.

Then do not do it.

I deal with people just as the Deputy does. I deal with people who want access to these records.

Do not seal the records.

Listen to the human rights lawyers.

The Deputy should stop taking the high moral ground and saying that others on this side of the House, because we are in government trying to do the right thing, are somehow trying to undermine people's access.

This is not the right thing.

It is not the right thing.

Will Members please behave with a little decorum?

This commission was formed to inquire into the deaths of 600 babies. This is a massive issue.

Deputy Cairns has asked her question and she got a reply. I am moving on to the next questioner. I call Deputy Mick Barry.