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Dáil
‹ Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Abortion services and report delays

Summary

Holly Cairns and Bríd Smith challenged the Government over last night’s investigation into abortion services, the long-delayed expert report, and continued barriers for women needing terminations. The Taoiseach said the referendum context mattered, argued services had changed since repeal, and said the Government had yet to consider the report but would do so shortly, while also defending regulation of crisis pregnancy agencies.

Stop the clock. I am just waiting for them to leave. The "RTÉ Investigates" programme about our abortion services that aired last night was harrowing. It was also infuriating because everybody in this Chamber is already aware of all of the problems with these services. The Government has been sitting on the expert report that pointed out these problems for 12 months. Instead of action, we have had a game of political pass-the-parcel. The expert report was kicked to the health committee before being kicked back to the Government, where it has been since December. Last night, we saw clearly the people who are paying the price for that inaction, namely, women across the State who are traumatised, stigmatised and penalised. The Taoiseach has previously spoken about how he came to support repeal. He said one reason was a briefing he attended by the group Terminations for Medical Reasons. These are women and their partners who received a devastating diagnosis of foetal abnormality and were forced to leave the country for a termination. The Taoiseach stated, "I have never before left a briefing so moved by it ... I was really ashamed at how these people were treated", That quote is seven years old.

Despite the repeal vote, nothing has changed for these women. Irish law still forces them abroad for care because often doctors either cannot definitively say complex foetal abnormalities will lead to death within 21 days of birth, as the law demands, or they interpret the law conservatively because of the threat of criminal sanction, that is, up to 14 years of a prison sentence. The result is devastated women like Alison Gibney, who are forced to travel at the most traumatic time of their lives. Then, heartbroken, they are forced to smuggle their much-loved stillborn baby back into the country, as she said, hidden underneath coats in the boot of her car. Or women like Allison Lynch and Christine Monaghan who were forced to leave their stillborn babies in the UK and travel back without them. Why are we allowing this terrible suffering to continue? We are the legislators. We are the only ones with the power to change this. We have a duty to do it.

The Taoiseach was Minister for Health when we had the repeal vote. As Taoiseach, he can take the advice of his own expert report and reform the law before more women and families experience even more trauma. I recognise the importance of operational reform and that more maternity hospitals are now providing the abortion services but I am asking him about something else today.

In his reply, I ask him to specifically answer these three questions. Will the Government remove the mandatory three-day waiting period, end the criminalisation of healthcare workers and provide more clarity when it comes to providing abortion in cases of foetal abnormalities?

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Simon Harris The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I will specifically answer those three questions, but I am conscious that people follow these debates and discussions at home and in the time available to me I want to say a few things.

First, six years ago abortion was constitutionally banned in this country, so a lot has changed. We had a referendum, the result of which was decisive. Since then we have steered legislation through this House. Draft legislation was published in advance of the referendum so that people would know what the law would look like if they voted "Yes". We introduced it in this House and in the other House and we passed it. Since then, despite a global pandemic that had a very significant impact on the delivery of health services, we have seen the expansion and embedding of those services. From a relatively small number of our hospitals, it got up to 12, then 17 and it is the hope and expectation of the Minister for Health that it will get to all 19 hospitals by the end of the year. Safe access zones was another legislative issue that came at us in terms of wanting women and health professionals to be able access services unimpeded. We passed the legislation in this House and I expect it will pass Committee Stage in the Seanad this evening. We continue to see a small increase in the number of GPs and community providers. I think there has been an additional 20 providers in the course of the past 12 months and that matters with respect to geographic access across the country.

The Deputy is correct that we commissioned an independent review, which we have received. The Oireachtas health committee considered it. It was sent back to the Department and Minister for Health in December. As the Deputy acknowledged, the bulk of the recommendations are in the operational space, which she also acknowledged are important. They have largely been put in place and are being embedded across the health service. There are some recommendations that are not in the operational space, but rather the legislative space and it does fall to these Houses to decide how to act on them.

On the three specific questions, they are about issues the Government has not yet considered. However, the Minister for Health will engage at the Cabinet committee on health about them shortly. They deserve serious consideration though. The way the Deputy framed them is quite responsible regarding wanting to tease through some of the nuances of how the legislation is operating. That is different from some of the views presented in this House, which suggest that the draft legislation we put before the people stating this would be the law if they voted "Yes" should not count for something. I take as constructive the points the Deputy made about the three-day waiting period, the issue of how doctors feel with respect to the criminal justice system and the issue of - the Deputy used the phrase "clarification around" - fatal foetal abnormalities. The Government will give consideration to the legislative proposals, but I am also struck, as is the Minister for Health, as the Deputy rightly said, that in politics your word matters and when you publish draft legislation-----

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Simon Harris The Taoiseach Fine Gael

Gabh mo leithscéal.

It does matter because when you publish draft legislation alongside a referendum, stating that it will be the law if people vote "Yes", it has to count for something. I welcome the constructive way in which the Deputy engaged on the matters. I am not being coy about the three matters. I am being honest. The Government has yet to consider them, but we intend to discuss them at a Cabinet committee on health shortly.

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To hear that a year after a report was given to the Government it has not been considered is extremely worrying. I heard the Minister for Health say yesterday that we have to be cognisant of what people voted for in the repeal referendum and in any plan to reform the law and the Taoiseach referenced it now too. I do not know if they are suggesting that they think the majority of people who voted to repeal the eighth amendment wanted to continue to force women who need terminations for medical reasons to travel abroad. I have to say that the very brave women who spoke out about needing a termination for medical reasons during the repeal referendum campaign won more hearts, minds and "Yes" votes than the Government's heads of Bill.

However, for argument's sake let us say it is about the heads of the Bill and the Government wants to honour that, the heads of Bill committed to having a review to see whether there were any serious issues with the current legislation. Some very serious issues have arisen. The fact is that people are still being forced to travel abroad and that women are being forced to wait three days to access medical care. The latter is something we do not see in any other kind of provision for care. It has no place in our law or in modern medicine and it needs to go.

On those three issues, does the Taoiseach think they need to be changed? Will he outline to the House, when considering them, what position he is coming from? Does he understand why these things need to be changed and why considering it now, a year later, is far too long for the women who have been forced to travel and for the ongoing suffering? Every day, women are still travelling.

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Simon Harris The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I, too, pay tribute to those who spoke out. As the Deputy correctly said, I was very influenced and informed in my own views. I am also very conscious, as the Deputy said, that they played a much larger role than any politician in this House, most particularly myself, in bringing about a successful "Yes" vote because they spoke to the people of Ireland and the people of Ireland responded compassionately. I also participated in debates, however, as did the Deputy's party and other parties, when we told people that a "Yes" vote was a vote for this and not for that. We have to reflect on that. Within that context, some of the things the Deputy said have merit. We put in place a review clause because we want to make sure the legislation is operating as intended. The perspective I come from on this is very straightforward. It is about wanting to provide healthcare to women. It is about wanting to be non-judgmental and compassionate. It is the same approach I brought when I campaigned for repeal and worked across party lines in a minority Government to pass the legislation.

It is not that the Government has a report and has not been doing anything. A very significant amount of work has been done with that report in the operational space. Also, from a legislative point of view, the priority has been safe access zones. I will continue to keep the Deputy and the House informed on our thinking on this.

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On the Taoiseach's first day of Leaders' Questions, it is quite a coincidence that he is being questioned by both the previous speaker and me on the abortion legislation. Last night's programme exposed the ongoing denial of abortion rights to a significant number of women in this country six years after repeal. It was interesting that it opened with a clip of the Taoiseach in Dublin Castle on that historic day when the massive "Yes" vote was announced. He told the crowd, “Under the eighth amendment, [we said to] women in crisis ... take the boat [or take the plane], today we ... [say], take our hand." The programme then showed how women today are still being forced to take the boat or the plane. It has happened to hundreds of women since repeal.

Three brave women told their very moving, sad and tragic stories last night. I commend them for doing what they did and their courage because it has implications for the future for all women with crisis pregnancies in this country. Having been given the devastating news that their much-wanted babies will not survive, women are then told they cannot access abortion care here and will have to travel. Then, they have the tragedy of having to leave the remains of their babies behind to come back and collect them later or hide them under a blanket in the back of a car in case customs interrogate them. Women are still being treated as criminals for accessing basic reproductive healthcare. As Ms Marie O'Shea pointed out on the show and to members when she appeared before the Joint Committee on Health, doctors are being intimidated by a 14-year prison sentence hanging over them like a chill factor in case they fall outside the terms of the legislation.

The Taoiseach made his political name as Minister for Health during the repeal campaign. During the Dáil debate on the abortion legislation, he repeatedly said how important it was that the legislation be kept under review. He stated:

I am purposely seeking a review clause in the legislation as a result of looking at other jurisdictions where legislators thought all they needed to do was pass a Bill and that they had dealt with the issue forever. For us ... that would be a dereliction of our duty. It is appropriate that we return to the issue and make sure the legislation continues to be in line with best international practice. That is what a review clause will accomplish.

Yet, six years after repeal and well over a year since Ms O'Shea's report, we are still waiting for the Government to stop sitting on its hands. It is almost one year since People Before Profit had a Private Members' Bill passed in this House by a majority of Deputies, using the Marie O'Shea report to show how a Bill could be passed to abolish the three-day wait, 12-week limit and 14-year prison sentence for doctors and ensure that no one else is told to take the boat or plane ever again. However, it remains sitting in committee. TDs were given a free vote and they voted for that amendment, so it is not true to say that we are all laggards in terms of trying to make progress.

It is not good enough that the Government is sitting on its hands and refusing to allow the Bill to progress in committee. I wrote to the health committee this morning, having written many times previously, asking it, yet again, to progress the Bill through the committee. Will the Taoiseach do what his predecessor, Deputy Varadkar, did and continue to tell women with fatal foetal anomaly and with those diagnoses that they must take the boat or the plane, or will he show a bit of courage?

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The Deputy's time is up.

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Marie O'Shea has said courage is needed. Will the Taoiseach use his famous slogan about new energy to implement a review immediately?

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Simon Harris The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I thank the Deputy. I accept the sincerity of her view. Whether people agree or disagree with her view, it is well known in this House. We should not engage in revisionism. An awful lot has happened. We had a constitutional ban on abortion. We had the eighth amendment. This House was not empowered to legislate at all. We all went out, across party lines, and campaigned. It is kind of amazing now to think that actually happened, given there was a minority Government. People pulled together and we brought about good societal change.

Since then, we have managed to see the services embed. We have managed to see many thousands of women who previously would have travelled or been denied access to healthcare be able to access healthcare in this country. The statistics are published and laid before this House each and every year. We have established My Options. It is a really important, free, non-judgmental service that provides people with information and access to counselling, as well as advice on how they can access the services that are legal within this country. We have seen the number of hospitals providing the service significantly increase. We have seen the number of community providers increase and geographic access across the country thereby improve. From a legislative point of view, we have prioritised safe access zones. There was a view in this House that we needed to move on that issue. This House passed the legislation. It is on Committee Stage in the Seanad and it is hoped to conclude that Stage this evening.

We put in place a review clause. Yes, I did that. I remember being in the committee with the Deputy when we put in place that review clause. There was a view in the committee, across party lines, that we should do so. The review has come back with many recommendations. A lot of them have already been enacted in the operational space. They have been good recommendations to help to improve the clinical delivery of the service. Some of the recommendations are legislative in nature. The Government will give them due consideration, as I am sure will the Opposition parties.

I note the Deputy's comment regarding her own Bill. She has every right to bring it forward. I do not recall the figures but my memory is that it passed because a majority, or certainly a large number of Deputies, abstained out of respect for wanting the review to be carried out. Factually, the Bill passed Second Stage in the House. That is true. Without speaking for the Deputy, I think it is fair to say her Bill would go significantly further than the review. She is very clear about wanting to abolish the 12-week limit altogether. That is her position. It is not mine and it is not the position we set out when we went before the people. The Deputy has interacted with the health committee, as is her right. It is a matter for the committee to decide how it wishes to proceed with that request. I have outlined very clearly what the Government intends to do, which is to pass the safe access zones legislation, ensure the services are provided in the 19 hospitals, implement the operational recommendations and engage with the Minister for Health and the Cabinet committee on health on the legislative recommendations.

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I do not think it is fair to frame the history of what happened to the Bill as there somehow being a minority voting for it. Only approximately nine Deputies abstained that day. There was not a huge number of Deputies who abstained.

I want to pick up on a few things the Taoiseach said. The 28-day limit is really the crucial thing in terms of how fatal foetal anomalies are treated and in stopping the harrowing and tragic testimonies we saw last night. The 28-day limit on when doctors can say there is need of a termination in a case of fatal foetal anomaly was added only after the referendum. It was not in the heads of Bill. People did not vote for it. The requirement for a three-day wait and a repeat visit was never discussed by the citizens' assembly or the joint Oireachtas committee. It was put in by the Government afterwards to try to bring some of its leading members on a journey. It was never discussed by us.

The programme last night also raised the question of rogue agencies. Will the Taoiseach address that in his response? In 2016, after a similar investigation was revealed in the Ireland edition of The Times, he said he was sickened by those claims and vowed to regulate rogue agencies. Eight years later, they are still free to operate.

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The Deputy's time is up.

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I repeat my contention that the Government is sitting on its hands.

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Simon Harris The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I thank the Deputy for repeating her contention. Obviously, I do not agree with her. Even the three-day wait period has seen clarification on how it operates since the Covid pandemic.

That used to involve two in-person visits but that is now not the case. That was something that came about during Covid that was deemed to work clinically well in the health service and was therefore embedded. I am not dismissing many of the points that have been made in this House but outlining the process the Government will go through.

On rogue crisis pregnancy agencies, I was and am sickened. The Deputy tried to imply that I did nothing about the matter but we set up My Options. For the first time in the history of the State, we now have a State freephone service. I encourage people to make this known. It is a non-judgmental service that is available to people, provides massive support and directs people to appropriate and safe services.

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I did not accuse the Taoiseach of not doing anything. He failed to regulate-----

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The Deputy should please let the Taoiseach respond.

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Simon Harris The Taoiseach Fine Gael

I also went further. Elections sometimes interrupt people's tenure of service but in 2019 I also brought about regulations to designate the professions of counsellor and psychotherapist under the Health and Social Care Professionals Act. I established the Counsellors and Psychotherapists Registration Board. I appointed its members in February 2019 and they held their first meeting in May 2019. Everybody knows the pressure the Department of Health has been under with the Covid pandemic and the like since. A lot has happened.

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