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Dáil
‹ Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

Abortion legislation and access

Summary

Holly Cairns raised the anniversary of repeal, welcomed Joe Carroll, and introduced a Bill to implement the abortion review recommendations. The Taoiseach said the Government supports safe and equitable access, noted service expansions and safe access zones, and said the House should have debate on the legislation.

At the outset, I want to acknowledge the passing of Councillor Joe Carroll on Friday. He was exceptionally helpful and supportive towards me when I first entered into politics. That is the kind of person he was, and the kind of person who will be missed, in Skibbereen and beyond. My thoughts are with Sheila, and Linda and Kieran, and Anna.

Eight years ago, Ireland voted to repeal the eighth amendment, to take abortion access out of the Constitution and into the hands of the legislators in this House. It was the culmination of decades of campaigning by committed activists all across the country. Many people across this House, including the Taoiseach, were part of that referendum campaign.

From my experience canvassing in west Cork, I know the stories from women late-on in pregnancy who were forced to travel abroad to have terminations for medical reasons were the stories that stuck in people's minds and hearts the most - women who, in the midst of grief and trauma, chose to speak publicly to share deeply personal experiences. They spoke about receiving devastating diagnoses. They spoke about being told they could not receive care in their country. They spoke about the loneliness of travelling, leaving behind their families, their support networks and their homes at one of the most painful moments in their life, and they spoke about stigma and shame where there should have been compassion and care. They told their stories for a simple reason: so that what happened to them would not happen again. Eight years ago, Ireland listened to those women and voted to repeal the eighth.

Three years ago, the Marie O'Shea report was published - a report which was baked into the initial legislation and commissioned by the Government. This report found that the law is not working as it should. It recommended clear, practical changes, including removing the mandatory three-day waiting period, ending the criminalisation of doctors and providing clarity so that women facing fatal foetal diagnoses can access care here at home, but since then little has changed.

Every year, approximately 240 women are still forced to travel to the UK to access abortion care. Many of those women are travelling because they have received a devastating diagnosis, often after their 20-week scan, such as Denise Whitmore, whose story I raised with the Taoiseach a few weeks ago. We cannot ask women to share their stories over and over again and not take action. We cannot stand over a system that continues to send women abroad at their most vulnerable moment.

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Verona Murphy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

The Taoiseach will respond.

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Eight years ago, the public voted for a compassionate approach to abortion care.

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Verona Murphy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

The time is up, Deputy.

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Three years ago, the report was published.

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Verona Murphy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

The Taoiseach will respond, Deputy Cairns. Prepare in time.

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Today, I am introducing a Bill to enact the recommendations of the report on this legislation.

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Verona Murphy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

The Taoiseach will respond.

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First of all, I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. The Government is committed to ensuring that there is safe and equitable access to termination of pregnancy services. Significant steps have been taken in this regard, including the expansion of hospital services, the introduction of safe access zones and the continuation of the revised model of care for termination in early pregnancy. These measures have substantially reduced barriers and they have increased accessed to services for those who need them. Given that there is a broad spectrum of sincerely held opinion on the issue of legislative change, proposals in this regard require careful consideration.

There was a referendum, as the Deputy said, on the eighth amendment and termination of pregnancy services came into operation on 1 January 2019. As the Deputy says, a review of the Act was completed in 2023.

Significant progress has been made on implementing the operational recommendations arising from the review. Termination services in early pregnancy, up to 12 weeks, are now provided in all 19 maternity hospitals. That was not the position some years ago. There has also been a sustained increase in community providers, which currently stands at 491. Furthermore, the revised model of care introduced in response to the Covid-19 pandemic has been approved as the enduring model of care. It is also now possible for one of the two consultations required for termination in early pregnancy to take place remotely. The Deputy will be aware of the safe access zones legislation coming into effect.

Overall, the Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Act 2018 is consistent with commitments given to the Irish people prior to the repeal of the eighth amendment. That said, there is a broad range of sincerely held opinion on the issue of legislative changes to that Act. It is important that all voices are heard, that we have a respectful debate and discussion on this and that we listen to one another with a view to achieving the maximum consensus possible before proceeding with change. The Social Democrats' legislation will give an opportunity for that to happen in the House. I have spoken to the Minister about this and she will engage constructively with the legislation the Social Democrats will bring to the House. Ultimately, the legislation calls for ministerial guidelines to arbitrate - that is the wrong word - to guide clinicians in respect of fatal foetal abnormality, which is an issue for some of those who are travelling out of the country to have terminations. It is not all cases. The three-day wait and other issues in the legislation also need to be discussed. If we learned anything from the referendum, it was that-----

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Verona Murphy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

Thank you, Taoiseach. Deputy Cairns will respond.

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-----there was sustained discussion in the House and at committee level which facilitated the subsequent outcome.

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Verona Murphy An Ceann Comhairle Independent

Taoiseach, your time is up.

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I appreciate the Taoiseach's engagement on the issue and that of the Minister for Health and that he has spoken to her about this. It sounds like the Government is willing to constructively engage and that is important, given the trauma that many people are still going through.

I appeal to people on all sides of the House to allow the legislation to reach Second Stage, to allow it to at least be debated. An argument is often made in this House and beyond that, because the public voted on particular legislation, it simply cannot be changed. That argument does not stand up to scrutiny. The voting public knows legislation changes and can be improved and it is our job to do that. A review was also baked into the legislation and the public voted on that.

I thank the Taoiseach for his co-operation and ask again whether he will be supporting the passing of the Bill.

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On this side of the House, as the Deputy will be aware, it is a vote of conscience on matters of this nature. Life or death matters are votes of conscience. We will examine the legislation. There will be debate around the area of fatal foetal abnormality. There was significant debate around it on Committee Stage in advance of the referendum and during the referendum campaign. There is a desire in many people to maintain faith with the amendment and the debate around the changes that occurred, which were debated during the referendum campaign. I think everyone facilitates debate in the House, or at least they should, from First Stage into Second Stage. We should allow people to examine the Bill in detail and come to their positions on it.

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