Carmel Cantwell's brother William died in Bessborough mother and baby home. Speaking at a vigil on Sunday she said, "The land itself holds the truth. These buildings, these fields hold stories and secrets and the remains of our family members". That truth now lies buried. If planning permission is granted next week, this Government has a big decision to make: do its State apologies mean anything or are they just performance?

Until this point, every time I have raised it with the Taoiseach, the current Minister and the former Minister, they have all said the same thing, which is that an investigation of the site would be too big and too expensive. For one, is anything too big when we are talking about the gravity of 829 disappeared babies? Leaving that aside for the moment, no one is asking the Government to go in tomorrow and excavate the entire site at Bessborough. Before that there would need to be geophysical surveys, test excavations and soil samples. The commission of investigation did not do any of that. It did not properly investigate the site. Even leaving that aside, the first thing the Government has to do is CPO land. This was unanimously agreed by Cork City Council and it is the number one ask of survivors for the State to protect the site and to give survivors breathing space and time to discuss what should happen next, without the looming pressure of diggers rolling into the site.

Another argument the Taoiseach puts forward whenever I raise Bessborough is that he cannot intervene in the planning process. Everyone understands and agrees that in normal circumstances the Government should not intervene but does the Taoiseach think these circumstances are normal? A total of 923 children died at Bessborough between 1922 and 1998 when it finally closed, and 1998 is not that long ago. This is the Taoiseach's constituency and he was on the local authority at that time. Burial records exist for only 64 of these children, meaning 829 children are disappeared, presumed dead, but nobody knows. These are not normal circumstances.

Under the European Convention on Human Rights, ECHR, the State has a legal obligation to protect this site for proper forensic investigation and to deliver truth and justice for survivors. The only way to do that is through compulsorily purchasing the land. What survivors want to know is what this Government is going to do if the planning decision is upheld. Is it going to do nothing? Will it sit back while survivors chain themselves to the gates, or is the Government going to do what it should have done a long time ago, which is the bare minimum of compulsorily purchasing the land?

First of all, the pain felt by survivors and families connected to Bessborough is profound. It is enduring. Neither I nor the rest of the Government has ever minimised that reality. I would argue that the last Government did more on these issues than any previous Government for a long time. It was not just about performance. I think it is unfair of the Deputy to put that insinuation across in the manner that she has, given the profundity and deep sadness of this issue. The most fundamental pursuit for quite a number of years was unhindered access to all birth records. That was the most significant issue over two decades, and various arguments were used around the constitutional this and that. The last Government and the Attorney General advised that there should be no hindrance to access to information. That has happened and it has been very comprehensive. This is not, therefore, some empty gesture or performance, as the Deputy suggested it was. No one has a monopoly on compassion or concern about this issue.

Equally, I would say that the redress scheme - people could argue its merits or demerits - has been a significant one. About 7,000 people have applied to date. My understanding is that up to 6,000-plus have had positive outcomes so far and the rest are being produced. This is along with many other initiatives undertaken by the last Government, and the former Minister, Roderic O’Gorman, in particular as the Minister responsible at the time for that issue.

The legal position and the law as we currently have them, as the Deputy probably knows, prevent further intervention on the site due to the absence of evidence on burial locations. Robust safeguards are in place and the Government remains fully committed to survivor engagement, memorialisation and accountability. We still do not know where the children who died are buried, including at Bessborough. As the Deputy said, the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes examined the Bessborough site extensively, including using cartographic and archival research, site surveys and public appeals for information. The commission concluded that, while it was likely some children were buried on the grounds, it found no physical or documentary evidence locating burial sites.

There have been different calls at different times, and there is not unanimity on this among survivors in terms of how the site should be treated or protected. It is a large site of approximately 60 acres at the moment. It was previously over 200 acres, so it has already been partially developed over the decades.

I thank the Taoiseach.

Excavation without evidence of location at the moment is not lawful nor feasible. I will come back in again.

Can the Taoiseach imagine what it must feel like to not know if your baby, your sibling or your niece or nephew is buried at the site in Bessborough or, potentially, was sold abroad? Like Carmel Cantwell said at the weekend, the truth lies in the grounds. We are talking about some of the worst human rights violations and some of the worst crimes imaginable. We are talking about forced family separation. We are talking about disappeared infants. We are talking about human trafficking. We are then talking about the potential. Can the Taoiseach imagine apartments being built on top of that uninvestigated, potential mass grave of disappeared babies? It is unbelievable.

I asked the Taoiseach if the Government would compulsorily purchase the land, and he stood up and simply did not answer the question. He spoke around the issue for the entire reply, talked about how great the Government's scheme was, which excluded people who spent less than six months in an institution, and talked about the size of the site again.

I thank the Deputy.

Is there a site that is too big to warrant-----

The Taoiseach to respond.

-----the investigation of the disappearance of over 800 babies?

In my view, the local authority should have purchased the site compulsorily a number of years ago. It chose not to. Governments, by definition, do not just go in and purchase sites compulsorily. There are issues regarding how to how to protect and treat sites, without necessarily having to purchase it compulsorily.

The history is a bit more complex than was articulated by the Deputy. It is much more so. It is not so simple. I will not say any more than that. I will put it this way to the Deputy: even within the context of the laws that have been passed and in terms of the planning application, she has not specified to me how the Government should intervene with An Coimisiún Pleanála. She must know the law, just like everybody else. It is a great thing to say-----

I said the Government should purchase land compulsorily.

Is it not a wonderful thing to say that we should interfere with An Coimisiún Pleanála? Just intervene.

No, I do not find it a wonderful thing to say.

Please, Deputy.

Sorry, but it is a very simple thing to say we should intervene in the planning process-----

The time is up. I thank the Taoiseach.

-----without any consequence, without even a question of-----

We now move to Deputy Ivana Bacik.

The Government will await the outcome of the planning appeal next week, and then we will see how to respond to that decision by An Coimisiún Pleanála.