Taoiseach, the time is up.

I was heckled again.

I am afraid you were-----

I am not being given the opportunity-----

-----not afforded the opportunity.

There has been a lot of misrepresentation. The Ceann Comhairle allowed the Deputy to speak.

The problem is that the Deputy-----

Deputy Cairns took 30 seconds.

I thank the Chief Whip but I am in the Chair. I call on Deputy Ivana Bacik.

We need a bit of balance here.

Let this be a lesson to other Members to listen to the answer.

This is so unfair.

It is not unfair. Time is time.

It is completely unfair.

Last Thursday's decision granting permission for development to proceed on the site of the former Bessborough mother and baby home is indeed deeply disappointing. It has caused immense distress and concern to survivors and many other people across the country. I have been listening carefully to what the Taoiseach has said but it is extremely distressing for everyone to hear the conditionality attached to the permission that works must stop if human remains are found on the grounds. That alone should be a cause of immense concern to anyone who has read anything of the history of Bessborough. Ten days ago, I visited the site myself. It is in the Taoiseach's own constituency and I know he has been there himself. I was there with survivor advocate Carmel Cantwell, Labour Senator Laura Harmon and our councillors, Ciara O'Connor and Peter Horgan. We saw at first hand the very poignant memorial bearing the names of just some of those women and children who lived and died at Bessborough.

Survivors in the local community had to assemble this memorial themselves because there is so little to mark the suffering of the thousands of mothers and babies who passed through that institution over many decades. Of the 923 babies died there, just 64 are accounted for. Over 800 babies are missing.

Standing at the site, the weight of suffering is palpable. We owe those who suffered there - the mothers, the babies and their descendants and families - a proper memorial and a duty of preservation. Bessborough should be a site of conscience. There is huge cross-party agreement on that. Last Thursday’s decision has understandably caused this outpouring of distress. The decision was made without access to relevant records. That has already been debated that to and fro, but I think we can all agree that it was made without access to all relevant records and without the benefit of modern technology being used to survey the grounds extensively.

Often when we talk about institutional abuse, it is in circumstances where the Government is trying to make amends for terrible wrongs that have already happened in the past. I am thinking of the Bill Kenneally case, which we are going to be discussing this afternoon. This time, we have an opportunity to prevent a wrong from happening because there are babies unaccounted for and living survivors, like Terry Meyer in today's edition of the Irish Examiner, telling us that they witnessed burials on the grounds of Bessborough. This is a live issue, and we still have time to do the right thing. Imagine if we had concreted over the site at Tuam before Catherine Corless had carried out her incredible work there. Imagine what would have been lost. We cannot allow that to happen at Bessborough.

Two weeks ago, the Taoiseach conceded in this House that Cork City Council should have compulsorily purchased the site years ago. Let us approach this debate with honesty. The Taoiseach said that. I agree with him. However, Cork City Council did not acquire the site under CPO, so what now? If the Taoiseach genuinely believes, and I think he does, that the site should have been acquired, then there is a moral imperative on the Government to act now. The State should secure Bessborough through compulsory purchase, if necessary, or by negotiating with the developer. It is not too late to do this. No building work has started yet. Bessborough must be brought into State ownership, properly investigated, preserved as a site of conscience-----

The Taoiseach will respond now.

-----and made home to a fitting memorial for survivors.

I thank the Deputy. The Taoiseach, please.

How can we work with the Taoiseach to facilitate that?

Hear, hear.

The Deputy's time is up. The Taoiseach to respond.

I appreciate the constructive manner in which the Deputy has raised the questions, particularly in the context of her question as to how she can work with us. I appreciate that response. She has not attempted to name-call anybody or misrepresent people. I appreciate that.

What I was endeavouring to say is that the commission did examine the site extensively, including in the context of cartographic and archival research and site surveys. It concluded that while it is likely that some children are buried on the grounds, that is, somewhere within the 60 acres, it found no physical or documentary evidence locating burial sites. When I spoke to survivors early on - not this year but, certainly, two to three years ago - there were differing perspectives in terms of how we deal with the 60 acres and with the site itself. It is not just on this specific one that An Coimisiún Pleanála has made an adjudication.

One of the difficulties is, I am advised, that excavation without evidence of location is neither feasible nor lawful. That is a problem. Under the Institutional Burials Act 2022, the Government can only appoint a director of authorised intervention where it is satisfied that burials have taken place and there is evidence that those burials are manifestly inappropriate. In the case of Bessborough, I am advised that the legal threshold cannot currently be met because the location of many burials remains unknown. However, there are significant and meaningful planning protections in respect of the specific application at Bessborough, namely: a forensic archaeological monitoring strategy is mandatory; a forensic archaeologist must be present throughout excavation works; and, as the Deputy said, all works must cease immediately if human remains are discovered. That is obviously designed to ensure dignity, protection and accountability.

CPOs just do not happen automatically even if people apply for them. There are huge legal thresholds to be overcome in respect of a CPO of a site like this, particularly given that the council has designated it as appropriate for housing in its city development plan and, in the context of its executive functions, gave planning permission to the development of housing there. That has now been endorsed by An Bord Pleanála. Therefore, a CPO is not a straightforward, simplistic thing the Government can do by just pressing a button. That also needs to be acknowledged.

This matter does need reflection and examination. I fully accept the disquiet that is out there.

We have done everything we possibly can over the last number of years in fulfilling the action plan that was outlined by the last Government in all of the areas that were covered at that time, in relation, as I said, to access to records, in terms of a redress scheme and much more than just that. We passed the Institutional Burials Act, which is now operational in Tuam and yielding an outcome there. Up to now, to be blunt about it, there was no real push or pressure to excavate the entire 60 acres at Bessborough.

I have listened carefully to the Taoiseach's response and I thank him for his considered engagement. I welcome his saying that there should be a period of reflection and examination. It is not too late to look at other options beyond the CPO option. It is possible now for the Government to engage with the developer, and I ask that it would consider doing that. It would have the support of the public. Nearly 10,000 people have signed the petition calling for a CPO. However, it does not have to be by CPO that the site comes into State ownership so that it can become and be preserved as a site of conscience.

Last night, Cork City Council unanimously agreed that the site should be acquired by CPO. There is huge support for this. I walked to the site with Carmel Cantwell. I know the issues and the scale of the site. However, we overcame those issues at Tuam through working together constructively. Where there is a will, there is a way on this. With the right political will, the objections can be overcome and the difficulties can be overcome. We can use modern methods of technology to geomap sites to look at identifying potential burial grounds. I think the Taoiseach will agree with me it is deeply chilling to read that the conditions include that the construction will stop if human remains are found. That is not acceptable on a site like this.

We can say it is deeply chilling, but it is with a view to protecting human remains. That is important as well. I think that is something that should be in the planning condition.

We can pre-empt that.

If it was not in the planning condition, the developer could do what the developer might want to do if it came upon human remains. That is one of the issues here. We are dealing with a 60-acre site here. I know the site very well. I have known it all my life. Buildings have been put on that site over the years. There are services on that site, funded by the State, in new buildings and so on. I mean social services and so forth. Certainly, I will engage with the Deputy and I will take on board some of the suggestions that she made in her contribution, but we also have to examine the possibility that there are no burials in that site at all. What if there is none?

So why-----

Establish that. Jesus.