In the second session, we will hear from the National Citizens' Parliament for Media and Democracy about the MeDeMAP research project, which examines ways to future-proof pathways to strengthening democracy through media production and inclusive citizenship. I welcome the following witnesses: Dr. Rosemary Day, principal investigator; Ms. Jude McInerney, principal researcher; Mr. Niall Mahon; and Ms. Moya Ní Cheallaigh. They are all very welcome.

The format of today's meeting is that I will invite the witnesses to make an opening statement and presentation. This will be strictly limited to five minutes. I understand the time will be shared between Dr. Day, Mr. Mahon and Ms Ní Cheallaigh and will include a PowerPoint presentation. There will follow questions from members. As the witnesses are probably aware, the committee may publish their opening statements and presentation on its webpage. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Before the witnesses make their presentation, I would like to clarify some limitations in regard to parliamentary privilege and the practices of the Houses as regards references witnesses make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or those who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Chair to ensure it is not abused. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

This session will last a half-hour only as we are strictly obliged to go into private session at 2.32 p.m. I invite Dr. Day to address the committee, followed by Mr. Mahon and Ms Ní Cheallaigh.

A Teachtaí Dála agus a Sheanadóirí, táimid fíorbhuíoch as an deis seo a fháil moltaí Pharlaimint Náisiúnta na hÉireann na Saoránaigh ar an Daonlathas agus na Meáin a chur faoi bhur mbráid. We understand the time is limited. Members will see a number of slides we have prepared flicking past very quickly. We might revisit them when we get to questions and answers. They give the background to the project, which is funded by Horizon Europe. It is both a research project and a project that investigates democracy. The citizens, some of whom are sitting in the Gallery, spent four Saturdays working on resolutions on ways in which the media might be able to support and protect democracy. Of the 22 resolutions, two of the citizens, Mr. Mahon and Ms Ní Cheallaigh, will speak about the ones we consider the committee and legislators to have power to do something about. We understand the committee has already drafted amendments and presented a pre-legislative document for consultation. Some of the resolutions we will present today are also in that document.

As time is limited, I will hand over to the citizens who have done the work. The resolutions they consider of particular importance are highlighted in green on the next few slides and are also set out in the booklet provided to members.

Our first six resolutions all relate to media systems, that is, how the media operate. Four of our resolutions relate directly to Government funding, one relates to education initiatives and one relates to legislative changes.

Our first resolution concerns the establishment of a base level of funding for non-commercial media. This would involve submissions and the distribution of funding by city and county councils.

Our second recommendation involves the establishment of a universal basic wage for journalists.

Our third recommendation is for the establishment of apprenticeships and traineeships for young journalists. We heard about how it is difficult to recruit diverse samples of journalists. Traineeships and apprenticeships would help with that.

The next resolution concerns resourcing of Coimisiún na Meán. While we understand an coimisiún's personnel have increased from about 40 when it was the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland to nearly 200 now, our view is that it requires more resources and personnel to fulfil its purpose.

Our last resolution concerning systems states that social media platforms should be treated as publications in law and regulation. This is because we saw the damage social media posts can do to both individuals and to the truth.

We considered that important values such as objectivity, the public's right to know and the need for balance and fair reporting are being eroded at an alarming rate. It was agreed by all that these values are now more important than ever and, consequently, that they need to be protected in law. Coimisiún na Meán must be given the power to effectively hold media to account when they are not impartial or accurate. We hope the committee will be able to act on that.

We discussed the issue of opinions polls extensively because, in our view, such polls have the power to sway the electorate. We recommended that a ban should be enacted across all media, from print to radio and television, and also be extended to online platforms and social media, for a week before elections.

It was agreed that politicians should meet and talk with their constituents regularly at a non-party, town-hall-style event run by and reported upon by media outlets in a non-partisan manner. Regular events like this would bring dialogue and debate back into communities, from local parish or county level to national level. It would facilitate a more participative democracy and give the public a voice on issues of concern. Many people are currently complaining that they do not get a say on things that are bothering them or they are unhappy about.

I thank the witnesses for holding to the time. In fact, they are ahead of time. We will not follow the usual format. Instead, I invite members to indicate if they have a question. Deputy Ó Snodaigh is first to raise his hand.

Gabhaim buíochas leis na finnéithe as teacht anseo. We do not have much time. The last slide is the one that probably will stand out for us all. It refers to the EU introducing traceable identification of social media users. We have all seen the damage that can be done not just to politics and democracy in general but also to individuals when people hide behind anonymity. It is something we as politicians, and society in general, should look to with speed, because it is getting worse. There is a full slide on that issue. Was there much concentration on social media in the witnesses' deliberations?

We asked Calum Fabb from Coimisiún na Meán to come in to talk to us about social media because we considered it an area on which there really needs to be concentration. There was some controversy over whether people should be identifiable but we felt the social media platforms, if they had users' identify, could allow for anonymity in support groups and things like that. That was the issue on which there was least agreement. Ten people were in favour, four abstained and four were against. On most of the other recommendations, we had almost everybody voting for them, with perhaps one abstention or one person against. This issue is definitely the controversial one but we felt it definitely needed attention for the greater good.

It shows there is a job of work to do in society as a whole.

Absolutely.

The technology is changing so quickly and we must try to keep up with it.

I thank the witnesses for their contributions. As a big fan of universal basic income, I was really interested in that particular recommendation. The pilot scheme has been a huge help to artists. Will the witnesses say more about the discussions on this issue and their recommendation?

We had representatives from local newspapers in with us who spoke quite a bit about how young journalists are not finding journalism to be a sustainable career path. Many of them are going off to work for public relations firms and political parties. They argued this is something that is very much needed. We did not get into the nitty-gritty details of a scheme but there was unanimous agreement on recognition of the issue.

Did the witnesses discuss the reasons young journalists are leaving?

I would see it as the online encroachment into the advertising space and what tech refers to as disruption but what to me is the erosion of the conditions of work for journalists. Is that where it came from?

Yes, we spoke quite a bit about that as well.

This project, the citizens' parliament, was the most exciting part of the research and work Ms McInerney and I did. There were six other work packages, and they were replicated in ten countries across Europe. When we interviewed them, journalists and editors overwhelmingly came up with recruiting people from diverse backgrounds, particularly working-class young people, and keeping hold of bright and effective journalists as a real problem. In other countries in Europe, they were more concerned about abuse and that was not such a big for them in Ireland. The journalists who came in to talk to the citizens' parliament were very concerned about not having enough journalists, particularly local journalists and journalists from diverse backgrounds.

Was the abuse targeted at journalists from other jurisdictions online abuse?

Absolutely. The parliament met on four Saturdays in spring and even since then things have changed in Ireland. Things are changing so rapidly.

One other aspect that shocked me was that the local papers do not have the funding, staff or money to go after stories. They are not able to interrogate a story. They are supposed to be there to hold people accountable, but they are running here and there with a couple of people trying to cover so much. There is a lot of burnout and frustration within the industry. We thought that a universal basic wage system would work well.

That is interesting. I have been trying to push for the Minister to consider this as a pilot but there does not seem to be any work being done as to where next for our basic income for the arts-style pilot, be it carers or small or seasonal farmers. I had not really thought about journalists as a group and will be looking into that. I thank the witnesses so much.

Áine Fitzgerald from the Limerick Leader came in and spoke to us. Her big statement was that they are constantly firefighting against social media as well. If a journalist is looking to check facts for a story, social media is out there, and people are turning on journalists saying they are taking sides and asking why are they not reporting. I am sure members have seen that as well with the riots in Dublin. That is a big thing. Another big problem is that older, more experienced journalists are not being replaced. They are not getting to guide the younger journalists. Everybody is losing out. We are also losing out as readers or consumers because stories are not getting out there.

I thank the witnesses for attending and for their presentation. I am the father of three young children. From time to time, we allow them to use iPads and to go online. We try to regulate what they have access to and all that, but it is difficult.

In terms of political commentary, many politicians over the past few years have said that children should be banned from using social media, particularly up to a certain age. Is that something we should be looking at as a body politic based on the research the witnesses have done?

It is really interesting because the younger people in the parliament were nearly stricter about that and thought it was more of an issue than us older people. They have been more exposed to social media and the damage it does. As a mother of three children - they are a little more grown-up now - I had huge worries about that. It was one of the issues we discussed. I think the minimum age should be 16 years, but some people thought 18 years.

It was a big concern in the parliaments. A number of the resolutions in the booklet that are not addressing the members as legislators are related to media literacy are for the regulator, Coimisiún na Meán and Media Literacy Ireland. These bodies and the NUJ have also been presented with these resolutions.

The citizens' parliament identified problems and came up with resolutions for what so be done. It also targeted what organisations should do something about them. Some are targeted at the EU where representatives of the parliament are going in January while others are targeted at the level of local democracy. Citizens met Limerick City and Council in July. They are determined that this will have an impact. It is difficult sometimes for people to see how something like this might fit into what they are doing, but the fact that it has been rigorously recruited and organised gives it a status that a hobby group perhaps would not have. The citizens should be recognised for spending four very sunny days in the spring in sessions that were quite exhausting and educating themselves between sessions and identifying the issues, as the Deputy has, the issues and then asking who should do something about this.

Social media use is a valid concern. The whole forum is about democracy and the media, and young people are not the first group that comes to mind. If the members look at our recommendations for participation, Nos. 6, 7 and 8 all concern the youth. We also have the media literacy campaigns. It was a big topic of concern for us. It was not as clear who should deal with it.

While they are divided in the booklet according to the themes discussed each day, including systems, representation and participation, there other ways of dividing them quite neatly. One is funding because everything needs funding. Another has to do with media literacy, which was exactly the Deputy's question, because they are the big issues. Another is to do with more participation by members of the public in politics and in the media coverage of politics. The last one has to do with regulation, which is the business of Coimisiún na Meán.

I have a question on reporters being able to trace people's identities online. What does that traceable element look like? Everybody on this side of the table has been abused by anonymous posters numerous times.

If social media platforms were treated as publications, it would put the onus on them to ensure that they do not have libellous or inflammatory content on their sites. We felt that some people might like to be able to post anonymously in support groups and other forums, but if the social media platforms have the identity of the person, they can trace the post. It is up to the social media companies to figure out how they are going to do that. We did not get that far. They will possibly have to be made do it.

It is interesting that Instagram has a full page advertisement in the Irish Times today that states it is going to start protecting minors and that parental permission will have to be sought. The citizens were concerned about how much we can trust the platforms that are making money out of us and have allowed this to happen for so long. Some of the resolutions call for legislation to strengthen the powers of Coimisiún na Meán. That is a matter for the committee.

There is also probably an EU element to this as well. That would be very important for the presentation to the EU.

Deputy Crowe is welcome to the committee.

I am not a member of this committee and am not ordinarily here so I thank the Chair for allowing me to contribute. Dr. Day is from my alma mater and is very welcome. Deputy Willie O'Dea sends an apology as he planned to be here. The witnesses have done a huge body of important work.

I want their opinions on a few issues. One is citizen journalists. It is a term I scoff at as I think people have to go and study to acquire the skills to be a journalist. The witnesses also said that there should not be opinion polling in the week before elections. That is not a bad suggestion. Has this been trialled in any jurisdictions? In election people are politically or personally aligned to candidates but there are also a lot of people who are undecided. In the last week some of them for whatever reason will go on the winning side. It could change mindsets. Pages such as Wikipedia start off with the day a person is born, who they are married to, their children and what their is career is. However, for most public figures, be they involved in politics, entertainment or any other form of public life, there is usually a little column on controversies towards the bottom of the page and they are not always accurate. It is very difficult to get them changed. Have the witnesses considered the issue of defamatory stuff that lingers online and is hard to remove?

The issue of citizen journalists is not a new phenomenon. Kate Adie famously said in her heyday that if she was looking for brain surgery, she would rather go to a brain surgeon rather than someone she met at a bus stop.

I agree with that as well. However, the citizens' parliament discussed, and was very taken by the experts who came in to talk about, community media and local media on a micro-scale. There were resolutions that called for community media to be financed through Government but for the funding to be disbursed by local county councils and local authorities, which would know the media in the locality. That would be a way of making some kind of compromise, where there would be some regulation and some adherence to the basic standards that would be expected. I do not know whether that answers the Deputy's question.

With regard to the opinion poll, I am not aware of any place that has been able to impose a ban on opinion polls, certainly not on digital media. Ms McInerney talked about the difficulty of feeding the beast of digital newsfeeds. Opinion polls are a very handy way of doing that, so I do not see them disappearing soon, but it is a stated problem the citizens' parliament identified, which it would like somebody to do something about.

The Deputy's last question was to do with change.

It was about the likes of these Wikipedia pages where content stays there.

Ms Ní Cheallaigh's point was about whether it would be possible in some way, shape or form, even by using different words, for social media posts to be regulated in the same way that publications are treated. That would deal with a lot of it. On traceability and identifiability, the name of the person would not necessarily have to be on the post, but the social media platform would take action immediately. That is part of the difficulty, as members have all experienced. People get these abusive posts and things that are proven to be absolutely false but are not taken down, even though the platform recognises that they are such. We had that with Twitter just recently. There is a need for stronger regulations and stronger laws from EU to national level. There is also a need for education that is particularly strong in the media literacy part, so people are more critical of the news they consume, are looking for different sources and cross-checking, as well as more strengthened funding being given to community media as a third pillar and balance to the other forces.

Mr. Mahon might like to address the fact that we spoke about how education should be across the board. He may explain a little more about that.

The citizens' parliament was made up of 20 citizens. It was a diverse sample with both young and old. Nearly everybody felt a certain inability to discriminate between what is good and bad media. We felt that campaigns were needed across the board, not just in schools, concerning basic fact-checking and learning about AI, which is a big thing now. While it is ever evolving, it is something we need to be looking at constantly.

That is one of the most important points made in this session.

Especially for non-digital natives - people like us. That is not Mr. Mahon, obviously.

Does Mr. Mahon have any suggestions in relation to that?

No, just kind of the-----

It is so obvious. I have a child who is nearly 14 and a 15-year-old. The difference between what is real and not real, and what is actually journalism and not journalism, but is just some-----

Maybe because we are exposed to it more we might be slightly more aware, but education does not just stop when people leave school. Something that was highlighted for us was there need to be campaigns that reach everybody, not just in schools.

I am acting as a filter. My kids come to me to ask whether something is true and, generally speaking, it is not. I say they cannot just trust anyone who is putting up any old theory online. There is no filter. How we create those filters into the future will be a critical issue.

On that point, just short of 50 years ago, as an experiment in our school, a series of classes on media studies were introduced that were not on the curriculum. We all took an interest. The person delivering it was interested in computers. At that stage, I found it so useful to be able to look at different stories from different perspectives. In this day and age, every child, from the age of four onwards, needs to have those critical faculties encouraged, not just in terms of social media but in terms of everything that is happening, especially with the advent of AI. I welcome the fact that was looked at.

As a student teacher, I am well aware of the difficulties schools face in designing a curriculum that is relevant, but it is certainly something that is needed. It is about making sure that our curriculums are up to date and teaching people the skills they need.

It is a very good topic. It is something we might come back to as part of our online safety and online misinformation discussions, which will start over the next few weeks.

As somebody who teachers media and communication studies at third level, which I have been doing for over 30 years, it still appals me that media studies is not a core part of the curriculum at primary and secondary school level and then, as Mr. Mahon said, for the general public. It is a basic literacy. It is as basic as maths and being able to read and write in your own language. It is just critical thinking-----

It is very thought-provoking. It is something-----

If we can help in any way in that-----

We have a transition year, at least, which is not as structured in terms of the curriculum. Even at that stage, it is not too late because we all can learn how to be critical, but the earlier the better.

I will add that it is important we do not forget that the older generation also needs to be included in media literacy. A lot of older people are being caught in the whirlwinds and are believing what they are reading and seeing. That is where the citizens-----

All the scammers.

Yes. The citizens' parliament came to this that from the very beginning to the very end of life, everybody should have a media literacy.

Yes. It is not just in schools.

No, not just in schools. It is across the board.

This is my personal opinion, and we did not really talk about this, but this could tap into parenting skills as well. As the Cathaoirleach said, his children come to him. It is great they can do that, but a lot of parents are very happy to hand out phones to young kids and leave them to figure it all out by themselves. We need to have more education on that because if kids did not have access to this stuff in the first place, maybe they would not need to be learning about media literacy at such a young age.

The modern-day babysitter is the phone.

Ms Ní Cheallaigh made a very good point. I thank the witnesses for being here. That concludes our public engagements for today. We will go into private session to deal with some housekeeping matters just after our witnesses leave.