Today's meeting has been convened to discuss the progress on the integration of Gaelic games in our country. I welcome the following witnesses: iar-Uachtarán na hÉireann Dr. Mary McAleese, chairperson of the steering group on integration; Mr. Brian Molloy, president of the Camogie Association; Ms Helen O'Rourke, CEO of the Ladies Gaelic Football Association; Mr. Jarlath Burns, president of the Gaelic Athletic Association; Mr. Tom Ryan, director general of the Gaelic Athletic Association; and Ms Trina Murray, president of the Ladies Gaelic Football Association. They are all very welcome to our final meeting before the recess.

Today's meeting took many months to organise. My colleagues and the clerk sought to arrange this meeting on a range of dates but, unfortunately, steering group members were not available. We sought to proceed on two dates in July - 9 and 16 - but unfortunately the steering group was not available. The chairperson was unfortunately unavailable on 17 September. We were advised that the chairperson and most of the group were also unavailable on 1 October and that the chairperson and the president of the GAA were not available on 12 November. Another session the committee sought to arrange with the GAA, on 15 October, could also not proceed. For today's meeting to proceed, it was necessary for this 14-member committee to be facilitated by another Oireachtas committee to move to an earlier meeting slot in the final week before the Houses rise for Christmas.

Moving to the agenda, the format of the meeting is that I will invite the witnesses to deliver an opening statement. I understand that there will be just one opening statement. Statements are usually no longer than ten minutes but we have allowed a little longer because there are multiple organisations. The statement will be followed by questions from committee members. It is proposed that the committee will publish the opening statement on its website. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Before we move to today's discussion, I wish to clarify some limitations in relation to parliamentary privilege and the practices of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege in respect of presentations they make to the committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege, and it is my duty as Chair to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite the chairperson of the steering group, iarUachtarán na hÉireann Dr. Mary McAleese, to deliver the opening statement.

Is cúis mhór áthais dúinn an deis seo a bheith againn eolas a chur os bhur gcomhair maidir leis an obair thábhachtach atá idir lámha ag na trí eagraíocht le cúrsaí imeasctha a chur chun cinn. Is fiú a rá go bhfuil dlúthcheangal eadrainn cheana féin go stairiúil ach go gcabhróidh an obair atá ar bun le todhchaí nua agus níos fearr a chruthú dár gcluichí dúchasacha don chéad ghlúin eile.

We are grateful for the opportunity to appear before the committee as witnesses to assist with its questions and to share our vision for the formal integration of Gaelic games, surely one of the most significant transformations in the history of Irish sport. We are delighted to be here, particularly given the considerable challenges we faced in aligning diaries and finding a time that worked for everyone. We can see clearly how integration presents an important and meaningful opportunity to support our society and the ongoing demographic challenges facing our communities and our games.

To put that in context, in 2027, the combined membership of the new GAA will be close to 1 million members. That illustrates the true magnitude of what is happening here. At its heart, this process that we are engaged in represents far more than just merging three associations with a combined heritage of 313 years. It is the creation of a single, united, egalitarian association, one that will encourage every community, nurture every player and build the strongest possible future for our games while respecting the traditions of the codes, clubs and members. It will facilitate the playing of our national sports on hopefully the best facilities in the country, uphold the highest standards of player welfare and foster a shared sense of belonging that stretches from nursery programmes to all-Ireland champions, underpinned throughout by the amateur volunteer ethos that has served our nation so well for almost a century and a half.

We heard the committee most recently when as members they spoke about daughters who play and their need for equality of opportunity and equality of outcome as a result of this process. We have heard that from thousands of GAA members. The new GAA will give them and every member that equality of opportunity. We also heard committee members when they discussed how important it is that the voices of women are not sidelined as a result of this merger and that the heritage and distinct identities of the organisations and playing codes will be preserved within the new body with a dynamic and with momentum. We listened to the committee, and we are deeply committed to ensuring that everyone will be heard in the new organisation.

Their views are the views we have heard from the ground up. It is a groundswell of opinion, widely shared within that almost 1 million membership, in favour of integration. We are here because of that ground-up groundswell.

We stand today on the threshold of something quite seismic, not just for the Camogie Association, the GAA and the Ladies Gaelic Football Association, LGFA, but for Irish society as a whole. We want to be clear: integration is not just an administrative challenge but a firm statement about equality, inclusion, and shared purpose. It is about ensuring that every girl, every boy and every man and woman is supported and enabled to access our national games and to take part in these organisations, and particularly the new organisation, on and off the pitch, and where the GAA is truly a place where everybody belongs.

We have had two significant focuses this year. First is the creation of one single membership model, a truly unified identity for everyone involved in Gaelic games, where everyone will be a member of the GAA. This is the cornerstone of the integration project, ensuring that every player, coach, and volunteer belongs to one association with one purpose and one shared future. Second, a major commitment has been given to integrated governance structures that will underpin the association at every level, be it club, county, provincial or national. These conversations are complex, by their nature, but vital. The progress we have been able to make has been remarkable, thanks to the massive commitment of everybody involved. I am not just talking about people around this table but the hundreds of people who have assisted us on the journey towards the navigation tools we have put together to navigate our way to integration. As an example of the commitment shown by those tasked with delivering on this, one group alone has met on 28 occasions over the last six months. That group is chaired by Ger Ryan, whose work has been just remarkable.

Next year will mark a new phase of engagement and during that time we will welcome feedback from our officers and members to help shape the way forward. It will be an exercise built on inclusivity, respect and a shared belief in what Gaelic games can be when we move together. We will provide our members with the outline proposals for what the new GAA might look like post integration. As I mentioned, those proposals will have come from a hugely diverse and wide project of gathering, analysing and distilling information from the widest possible range of members' input and the input of interested parties. The final decision will be made by our collective memberships at congresses, and rightly so. The integration process belongs to the members of the Camogie Association, the GAA and the LGFA. It is their movement, their future and their legacy. The steering group on integration's mandate, which remains clear, is to create one association and one family where every participant regardless of code or gender feels equally valued, equally represented and equally supported.

Integration by its very nature will deliver significant positive change. It will undoubtedly come with challenges and costs, financial, structural and cultural, but the advantages it will bring to every club, parish and county in this country and on this island are immeasurable. This process will strengthen our sense of community, create clearer pathways for participation and ensure that every young boy and girl, every coach and volunteer, knows they are part of one family for all Gaelic games. It will also ensure that Gaelic games continue to be not only the beating heart of Irish life but also a model and a witness for the best of inclusivity and shared leadership in sport.

Player welfare, of course, remains absolutely central to this vision. It has been and will continue to be at the very heart of everything we do and everything we commit to. From nursery level to our senior intercounty and club teams, we are absolutely committed to the well-being, the safety and the development of every player. In the new integrated GAA, that commitment will not just continue but deepen, expand and be guided by best practice and the collective expertise of all three organisations.

The steering group on integration, chaired by me and composed of the uachtaráin and ard stiúrthóirí of the Camogie Association, the GAA and the LGFA, has been leading a very long and detailed process of listening, consultation and design. So far we have invited every stakeholder that can contribute meaningfully to shaping the new association, from player representative associations and coaches to administrators, volunteers, experts and players across every field, to participate in the process. Their goodwill and their enthusiasm have been deeply encouraging. It is, of course, their contributions that are helping us to shape an organisation that reflects the full diversity and the strength of our games. To date, several tripartite working groups have been established, each bringing together experts from the Camogie Association, the GAA and the LGFA. These include working groups on: one county, province and club; one membership; player welfare; facilities; finance; fixtures; match officials; rules advisory; games development; human resources; communications; sponsorship; branding; and ticketing. Each group is tasked with designing the frameworks that will underpin a single membership, common structures at club, county, provincial and national level, and that integrated approach to the development of our games, creating the systems, policies and pathways that will deliver a single, unified organisation while respecting the traditions, strengths and ambitions of each association.

From this work, the steering group has agreed a series of core principles that will underpin the new association. The first of these principles is the integration timeline. We are continuing to work towards one association by 2027 as previously communicated. The second is having a single association. Post integration, there will be one association, known as the GAA. The third principle is unified membership. A single membership structure will apply to all, ensuring equality and simplicity. The fourth core principle relates to the structures. The basic structures of club, county, provincial and national will remain consistent with the existing models. The fifth core principle is around officer roles. The current officer roles at each unit will largely remain, including core roles of secretary, treasurer and child protection officer. Some additional roles will be introduced to ensure that all codes played in a unit are equally represented on the management committee and the executive. The sixth core principle is governance and rules. The official guide and core rules will evolve to reflect the inclusive nature of the new association while maintaining strong representation across all the codes. The seventh principle will be a new club constitution created to reflect integration, while the eighth is integration. Following integration, all clubs will be formally affiliated with the new GAA. The ninth core principle is competitions. The competitions across all four codes will continue, enhanced, thankfully, by much better co-ordination and integration.

I previously stated that if we were to remain true to our core objective of providing playing opportunities for all members of our communities, we must recognise that the full flourishing of Gaelic games is intrinsically linked to the adequacy and accessibility of our facilities. Ultimately, our ambition is simple but profound: to create one family for all Gaelic games, from nursery to schools to clubs and senior intercounty, with every generation, gender and community connected under one banner. That is what we are building, and we believe that what we are building is historic. It will be a single association founded on respect, equality, unity of purpose, a shared identity that strengthens every club and every community, and a structure that ensures every player, coach and volunteer, no matter what code or gender or where they play, stands shoulder to shoulder under one crest and one organisation.

This is a seismic moment in the life of Gaelic games and in our nation’s history. We are confident that, through collaboration, courage and vision, we will deliver not just a strong sporting organisation - stronger than all three put together because there will be strength in unity - but also a stronger Ireland.

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee. We look forward to their questions and to continuing what is an important conversation about the future of Gaelic games together, because backing from our politicians at local and national level is essential to the ambitions we have.

I thank Dr. McAleese. I appreciate the comprehensive nature of that contribution. It included some eye-opening comments. There were 28 meetings of one committee. That is significant. I know Ger Ryan well, so I can understand why he would have many meetings. He is dedicated.

We will move to questions and the first on the list this week is Deputy Brian Brennan.

Before my life as a TD, I was very involved in the GAA so I understand exactly where the witnesses are coming from. I was lucky enough, many years ago, to wear the Wexford jersey at underage. I had a hugely enjoyable time sponsoring Wicklow senior and, more important, underage structures for more than a decade, including during the time of the legend Mick O'Dwyer. However, the most enjoyable time I ever had in the GAA was as maor uisce for the Arklow Geraldines ladies' team. The club was struggling a bit but the ladies' football team held it together and that club is thriving now. I have a young family and, until last year, I was junior assistant manager of the under-6s. Unfortunately, with this new career, I had to step aside, to the kids' delight, so I am very much on the page. I understand what is going on and the process.

On the timeline, is 2027 a little ambitious based on the fact that, at that stage, we will be dealing with almost 1 million members?

Are the witnesses meeting any resistance from the clubs or organisations?

What engagement has happened with the people on the coalface, such as the club chairs and selectors, including for camogie?

If we were starting today, 2027 would be a very ambitious target. We started in 2023. We set that target date then and it was and remains a relaxed target date. It is our target date for integration, for one organisation representing all codes to be in place in 2027. In the intervening years since we first announced that date, and that date was gathered from looking at the work that needed to be done to achieve integration and do it well, we have been doing the work consistently. At times it is overwhelming. If we were starting today, of course it would be ambitious, but in 2023 it was not ambitious and it is not ambitious now. It is a realisable target. That is the plan we have been working towards. It is the date we have been scheduling everything towards and we believe firmly that it is achievable.

There are pockets of resistance. There is no point in saying otherwise. The Deputy's county might have been involved in recent comments in that regard. However, leaving that aside, we conducted the biggest survey ever taken in any sporting organisation in Ireland. We surveyed the entire GAA, LGFA and Camogie Association membership early on to make sure we knew what their ideas were. Overwhelmingly - it was well over 90% in every code and every age category - members were firmly in favour of integration. It was from that survey that we were able to gather the kind of information we have been able to wind into our thinking, which is the thinking that goes into the roadshow we will test next year and which will lead to a refined, honed integration plan. There are pockets of resistance and we expect that. We will not get 100%, but integration is the future. We were asked by each of the three congresses, as a group, to prioritise integration because, from the ground up, that is what people wanted. This is not top down; it is ground up. We are responding.

The Deputy asked about the coalface. We have met hundreds of people - and with the groups working with us and feeding into us, perhaps thousands of experts - on the coalface, who are telling us what needs to be done, what will work best and what is best practice. That is what gives us confidence that the roadmap we have put together has the backing of the people we have talked to. They are the coalface. We have been listening to people like the Deputy with the children and the Gaelic Players Association, GPA, from six-year-olds up. Actually, I have to say we have not talked directly to any six-year-olds, but if the members know any who have ideas, they should tell them to get them to us while they can.

I appreciate that. Please understand that I totally understand what the GAA is about and what it does for the social fabric of every village, town and city. What is going on is important. However, I also understand the set-up. With this meeting in mind, I sat down and discussed with various chairs of ladies' football, camogie and the GAA. I went right across the board. I was not criticising the witnesses about 2027, but it is very complex. For example, most clubs are nearly already integrated, but in other clubs the camogie team pays rent for the pitch. I was astounded that there was such a gap. I understand the complexity and that is why I was concerned about the 2027 target. I appreciate the work that has been done until now and am well aware of it. How close are we to getting there?

I thank the Deputy for the remarks he made about how important the GAA, the LGFA and the Camogie Association are to Irish life and what they have contributed and continue to contribute, not just at home but also abroad. However, I will say this. The Deputy is talking to people who probably know more about the complexity. We are the people who probably know more about the complexity than anyone else on the entire planet. We have been living with this for the past three years. We have been feeding off the complexities, trying to iron them out, make sense of them and take all the bits of the jigsaw puzzle and put them into a manageable, navigable plan and we think we are there. We are as close as darn-it to there. However, we need backing and buy-in. When we take our plan out, we need people to get behind it and say it is exactly what was needed. We need them to say that not just about the overall ambition for integration - we have that; everyone wants it - but that the plan is manageable. We have been eating complexity for three years now and digesting it.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Teachta Brennan. On behalf of the GAA, I thank him for his volunteerism. When I look around I see two sets of people, GAA volunteers - many who have devoted their lives to the association - and people from the Oireachtas who have funded so well many of our clubs. It is important, as president of the GAA, that I put on the record, particularly under the large scale sport infrastructure fund, LSSIF, the amount of money our clubs get. I go around all the time opening pitches and social clubs and walking tracks that have been funded by the LSSIF and it would be remiss of me not to offer míle buíochas ar son Chumann Lúthchleas Gael mar gheall ar fhlaithiúlacht an Oireachtais agus an t-airgead a thugann sé do Chumann Lúthchleas Gael don infreastruchtúr.

I would not use the word "resistance". There is anxiety and apprehension in certain parts and that is natural. People would be complacent if there were not because, while this represents a wonderful opportunity, there will also be upheaval for many of the volunteers we ask to run the organisation at grassroots level.

Deputy Brennan talked about the camogie team, which is a separate club in his area, having to pay to use the field.

That will be a welcome change when it happens because the club will be a fully signed-up member and will have an entitlement to that field. That is not to say that the difficulties around the access to facilities are going to disappear. They will just change. It is important, with regard to timelines, to realise that integration is happening every day and has been happening for the last ten years. An awful lot of the things we are doing, like our player pathway, our coach pathway, Foireann, which is our administration system, and even with our infrastructure grants - the GAA gives out €10 million every year in infrastructure grants - one of the main criteria for the last five years has been preparing for integration. That means making infrastructural changes to clubhouses, dressing rooms, toilets and all of the things that will make our clubs welcoming places for females to change and to play. We have invested millions in that in the last number of years.

The final point I would make is that I am not worried at all about the grassroots level. Clubs will find their own level at which to interpret what integration means for them. For example, at our own club AGM recently, the ladies senior team asked that instead of the LGFA representative being picked at the first meeting of the executive, the representative be picked at the AGM like all of the other senior officers. That is rule 7(2) of the official guide and they got that through. They wanted to give the role the status of the AGM rather than of the first meeting of the new executive. Our club found its level and that is where we are.

We are running out of time. Mr. Burns can continue that narrative in the next round of questions.

Okay, no problem.

Our witnesses are all very welcome today and I thank them for the really comprehensive statement capturing everything that has been going on. I absolutely agree that Gaelic games are a fundamental essence of Irish society and the diaspora. They bring so much and this is such an important step. It is such an important opportunity for Ireland to really enjoy inclusion and integration in its games. It is so important and I commend everyone here on the work they are doing. I also commend the Gaelic Players Association, whose representatives appeared before us previously. I should point out that I am not from a GAA tradition. I always feel a little bit alone in these rooms when I say that but I am a rugby and snooker woman, to much mockery from my colleagues here.

We have had the snooker thing before.

I have always appreciated what Gaelic games do for Irish society and the enjoyment that so many people get out of them. Certainly, I have been learning a lot in recent times just to make sure that I can best represent my party as sports spokesperson as we monitor and assist in this really transformational change. I want to get under the hood a little bit, if I may.

Dr. McAleese spoke about the administrative challenges that lay ahead but then I also want to touch on some of the cultural challenges. In terms of administrative or logistical challenges that might arise, one of the areas I am interested in is duplication of clubs. The witnesses have referenced the fact that many clubs are already integrated but obviously some clubs may choose to handle this in different ways. Let us say there is a situation in the future where in a location clubs choose to integrate but not join with other clubs. If, for example, a camogie club in a particular area chooses to become an integrated club but not to merge with another local club, what do the witnesses anticipate the process being around incentivising that or do they imagine that incentivisation is something that will even be done? How will they handle that kind of duplication challenge?

That is an interesting question because the Deputy is right. In certain areas it is very simple. There is a hurling club and a camogie club and the expectation is that they become one club and off they go together, or there is a football club and a ladies football club and off they go together, or there are all four codes. However, there are loads of situations where there is a GAA club that only plays football and up the road from it there is a club that plays football and hurling and up the road from that again there is a completely separate camogie club and a separate ladies football club. As iar-Uachtarán McAleese has said, we have not absolutely finalised this and we will be communicating our plans and pathway but where we are going on this, as we said in September, is that no club is going to be forced to integrate with another club. GAA clubs will obviously stay as GAA clubs. Camogie clubs will affiliate as GAA clubs and ladies Gaelic football clubs will also affiliate as GAA clubs. That will create-----

I understand all of that but I really want to get to the question of potential duplication. Mr. Molloy is saying that there will not be any-----

There will be, by definition. In that second scenario where there are two GAA clubs, a ladies football club and a camogie club, we will end up with four clubs in that location. We are not going to impose a requirement on those clubs or a combination of them-----

Will the GAA incentivise them in any way?

Over time, it will come bottom up rather than top down. Over time, those on the ground are the best people to determine what is the best option, taking into account their facilities, their demographics, future demographics, future house building in the area, future population trends-----

Of course, there is the history, legacy and tradition of different clubs. That might be where the rubber hits the road. Perhaps if there is that tradition and history, with the name of the club and everything else, they might have concerns around being subsumed into a broader entity. All of that will come into it.

That would be determined at club and local level. It will not be imposed on anybody. In terms of the representation, we have not determined the final representation model. In terms of votes at county conventions, how will that work with regard to multiple codes versus single codes? Does a club with four codes have the same votes as a club with one code, for example? Mechanisms will have to be put in place to make sure that is all streamlined. That is all in the melting pot at the moment to be determined and will go into the roadshows in February and March. It will be nuanced before we get to the final version of it but mechanisms will have to be put in place there. The key piece in the feedback we received was that it would not be acceptable and would not run on the ground if it was an imposed model. If we said that we did not care about clubs' traditions, that they had to merge because they are in the same area, that would not work. We will allow that to come bottom up rather than be imposed top down.

In parallel, I would also identify that there is the cultural issue. In my role as director of IHREC I merged two former institutions of equality and human rights. They were State bodies and, as an outsider, it might be easier for me to say that there surely is a hierarchy in that a male all-Ireland medal is valued a little bit more than a camogie medal. Culturally, how do we ensure that the voices of certain traditions, camogie in particular, are going to be as valued? How do we make sure that a hierarchy is not retained? I appreciate that these are not things that are ever written down but there can be a perception that certain contributions are valued more. I want to understand how the GAA will tackle that culturally. In the corporate world they say culture eats strategy for breakfast. This is the kind of thing that is best done explicitly and is stated, rather than it being assumed that everything will be fine and everybody's voice will be valued equally. I am curious as to how the GAA is handling that as an organisation.

I can take a bit of that and then others may come in on it. I would agree with the Deputy that there are elements of it about which we have to be specific and that have to be prescribed in terms of the representation at each unit level to make sure that the codes are appropriately represented as well as the gender. We must make sure there is an appropriate level of representation for both. It is worth remembering at all times that, compared with two separate corporate entities merging that may have come from very different places, the Camogie Association has been operating for 121 years and is very much aligned, in terms of its culture, ethos, Irishness and Gaelic games culture, with the GAA. There is not a huge disparity in terms of the underlying ethos and culture of the Camogie Association and the GAA and the Ladies Gaelic Football Association. There are elements whereby there is already a huge synergy between the associations before we go forward with it and then there are elements of prescription that will be applied at the different levels of the association. As I said, we have yet to determine and absolutely nail down the exact specific levels of prescription, but that is something that came back to us through the working groups that we had on the one club, one county, one province kind of structures, to make sure that the individual codes are adequately represented and that is specified to make sure that it happens.

I might just add to that, if I may. Deputy Gibney is right that this is a potential issue and a potential challenge but Mr. Molloy expressed it very eloquently there. If we characterise the culture of the organisation, it is the people who are in it and how they behave.

Gaelic games of whatever hue, be it camogie, ladies' Gaelic football, hurling or Gaelic football, are represented by and large by the same people with the same aspirations. All of us in common are trying to advance the cause of Gaelic games. The games in those four guises are played by households all over the country. My daughter plays camogie and my son plays hurling, and that is replicated all over the country. There are far more commonalities between us in terms of our aspirations, culture, strategy and how we go about achieving that strategy than there are differences. The Deputy is right. That is something we have to be cognisant of. We build in certain safeguards around the structures that will apply to the new organisation and we will make sure every voice is heard and that this is not one organisation being subsumed into another. This is a coming together of equals but it will live or die by the people involved. I trust the people who are involved in the clubs referred by Deputy Brennan be they camogie, ladies' football, hurling or football clubs. We will get that right.

Gabhaim buíochas leis na finnéithe agus déanaim comhghairdeas leo as an obair ar fad atá déanta acu go dtí seo. Go n-éirí an t-ádh leo. Táim taobh thiar dóibh i ngach uile bhealach. Fadó fadó, d'imir mé le Clanna Gael i mBaile Átha Cliath agus le Cuala roimhe sin. Bhí sé sin chomh fada siar gurbh é "Cuala Casements" an teideal a bhí ar an gclub. There are significant challenges in merging organisations. The club with which I am involved - by involved, I mean I turn up at matches - merged recently with another club. Even on that level, it was a huge undertaking. The clubs merged because of a fall in numbers, which is one of the problems here in Dublin if a small club is dependent on the local authority for pitches. I wish the witnesses well. I can see complexity. I will leave them at it in some ways and see what comes of it. There are so many people out there who have vested interests and not in a bad way. They have grown up with a club and these are challenges to them.

My question is more about the equality of clubs. So many clubs out there have poor infrastructure. Mr. Burns mentioned €10 million. You could spend that on one club in Dublin. There is ambition to improve facilities so that they are fit for purpose for today, and not just after the amalgamation, so that there are proper dressing rooms, facilities and rooms for players when they are injured. Has there been an audit of clubs, clubhouses, pitches and everything else to see what needs to happen when this is bedded down? This will be finished in some ways in 2027, but in fact it is only the start of it.

An bhfuil an cheist sin fá mo choinne?

Yes. An bhfuil audit déanta?

Leoga, tá an coiste agus struchtúr atá againn i gcónaí ag dul i gcomhairle leis na coistí ar fud na tíre nuair atá siad ag dul isteach againn le haghaidh deontas. There are ongoing audits at all times for insurance and infrastructural purposes. I know a lot of people raised eyebrows when I mentioned €500 million - what it would cost. What I meant by that is, if we are going to do this right and if we are going to do right by females, that is what it is going to cost. As somebody who managed enough female teams, I know we are woefully inadequate. If we move towards compulsory provision in a full brand-new organisation, we have to be big enough to accept that our current infrastructure is unacceptable for females to change in and play and that it will cost a lot of money to do that. We are not saying that this has to happen on day one. This is obviously an infrastructure process like everything else. That is what it is going to take. That is what is coming back to us. I go round all the time opening up new premises, which are wonderful and looking really well. What we find is that premises that are being built now are being built commensurate with the needs of female athletes, which is really good to see, but we have a long way to go. That is not to say that it should stop or hinder any part of integration. It just means that we should be very focused on that particular challenge when integration does come - making our facilities fit for purpose for female athletes.

There are clubs that own their own land and can sometimes leverage funds. None of the clubs I have played with in Dublin own their own pitches, including Cuala, which is quite renowned around the country. They are council pitches so clubs are limited in what they can build or leverage from to use those pitches even though they might have a lease of 100 or 200 years on it. They need proper facilities. They need facilities for increased participation in female sport, which is brilliant. Men have suffered in bad dressing rooms up and down the country for many years. It is about presenting that vision. Mr. Burns is right about the €500 million but it needs to be presented in a way that can be measured and politicians and the membership of the GAA can see that a plan is there to bring everything up to the standards we would expect for our little ones especially.

The Deputy raised a really interesting point. I am not sure if members of the committee are familiar with a little piece of work we undertook recently about demographics and how population shifts in the country will affect us. Clearly it has a wider impact than Gaelic games but it has an impact on us. A total of 43% of people on this island live within an hour of where we are sitting, which has a real bearing on the problem referred to by the Deputy. A total of 25% of all children up to five years of age are concentrated in catchment areas dedicated to just 50 clubs while 78% of GAA clubs, and I mean GAA in the wider sense of being Gaelic games clubs, are located in areas where the population is declining. All of those things have a bearing on our three organisations in their current guise before we even talk about coming together. We carried out the audit referred to by the Deputy. We got a 95% response from clubs. We assessed the number of teams that each of those clubs had and the facilities - more the facilities they had use of rather than the facilities they owned. When we map what we expect to see in terms of a usage requirement for hours for each team against the facilities that are available, we can see there is a significant gap. There is a gap in terms of pitches, changing facilities and hurling walls. Our job now is to translate that gap into a discrete requirement. There may well be a time when we come back looking for some assistance in terms of how we bridge that gap and I hope we can count on the support of the committee when that day comes. I am very conscious of the challenges the Deputy posed.

What about the other codes - rounders and handball? There is no mention of them. Is there a plan? If the GAA is building facilities, are there other codes belonging to the GAA that we should be encouraging as well? In some areas they are there, while in others they have disappeared.

In terms of integration, we are learning as much from those two codes rather than the other way round because they are already there. Handball is played by men and women, while in rounders, men and women are on the same teams. In terms of how we build an organisation that reflects a diverse range of inputs and backgrounds, they are the models we will follow. The other aspects those two codes have that we can all learn involve the social aspect of those games. We have an opportunity to leverage those and promote those games better, and part of that will be facilities, so we will not neglect those for a second.

I thank the witnesses for a really substantial opening statement. I am very excited because this is brilliant. If everything in here is implemented, everybody will be very happy. I would like to talk about implementation, communication and culture because they probably constitute the next step. The GAA has obviously done an enormous amount of work on figuring out the dynamic of how the very complex structures need to be integrated. Everything is covered pretty much in this document, which is brilliant.

However, when there is a gap in information sharing and communication, sometimes that gap gets filled with rumour and untruths, which has started to happen. There is learning as well in terms of communication.

Obviously the steering committee has done huge work on integration. It has probably been exhaustive and I see the number of meetings that have happened. Because this group of people has done so much work, would the GAA consider having an implementation committee to take on the next stage of the process? That is what happened in golf when undergoing a merger. Is it on the cards for the GAA to have an implementation committee to take this really good document and make sure it happens?

That is a live discussion with us at the moment. The Senator's suggestion makes so much sense and she is absolutely right. Next spring, there will be a roadshow that will travel around the entire country showcasing our analysis and draft plan, and then we will have the opportunity for feedback. Following that feedback, we will have a very refined and honed plan for implementation and we will surely need an implementation group. That is a live discussion with us at the moment.

Going back to the Senator's earlier point about the information gap, because it is a good point well made, one of our difficulties over these past few years as we have gathered, analysed and distilled all the information, is that we are an advisory body. We are not a decision-making body and we have three separate organisations with their own ways of deciding things. We are not in a position always to go public with what we think is the best way forward until that has been put to those individual groups. It would be disrespectful of them, would it not, for us to get ahead of it and go out? The Senator is right about the information gap. We are very conscious of it. Strangely enough, we are now at the point of being able to fill that in. Having done the work over the last number of years, we are bang on target to get that information into the public domain, particularly to the three codes and the members, who are our first line of communication.

That is probably why this meeting is a good idea.

Yes.

It was difficult to get everybody together but this meeting is the first time that we have heard loads of detail on how things might come to pass.

In terms of the county board structure, indeed all of the structures within the GAA, and I am a retired - I hope only temporarily -under-nine camogie coach, everybody volunteers. Clubs and county boards will be looking for guidance and direction about how they become a one county board model. Forget about clubs. A lot of clubs actually have that one club model and it is working quite well. In camogie, ladies' football, hurling and football, there are three county boards in every county and three sets of decision-makers. People feel like they have an ownership of their game, and they do. How is that to be managed? What kind of direction and communication is being planned to give to the county boards? They need a specific set of recommendations and guidance. They cannot just make it up. They have people from the ground coming to them asking what is going on, why do they have that pitch and whether they are going to have to share a pitch. The county boards do not know because they are waiting for that top-down piece. I know the witnesses are saying it is bottom up, feeding the information on what should be done, but I think those at that county board level probably do need a kind of to-do list so that they can follow it and stand over it for their own members on the ground because boards will come under a bit of pressure.

One of the things that we have asked them to do over the coming year in preparation for this is to set up integration committees within each of the counties, where the three codes will work on the plan together. As Dr. McAleese has just alluded to, when we bring our proposal out to go around the country for the roadshows, part of that will be what the structure looks like for provincial and country boards. Within each of the set-ups, both provincial and county boards going forward for the coming year will have an integration committee in which they will work together on what they see are the issues for them, because the issues are not the same in every county.

Yes, and I knew the boards were asked to create groups. However, the groups they are starting to create are not sure what to do yet. Perhaps that is something the roadshows will help with. Again, we are back to communication and making sure that is carried through, because they do need help figuring out the roadmap.

Mr. Conor Meyler has appeared before this committee. He is a PhD student in integration in sport and a former intercounty player.

We have actually had Conor in to talk to us, as the Senator will know.

Yes, he told me.

In fact, there is an open invitation to him at the moment to keep us up to date on his research.

There was a turn of phrase he used that I want to reference, and it was in relation to equality. The equality piece is well represented in the steering group's document and I really respect that. It is obviously key to the whole thing. Mr. Meyler said that gender equality is not a moment but a commitment to a direction of travel. I though that was a really good way to put it. In other sports outside of the Gaelic games family, maybe snooker but certainly in swimming, athletics and gymnastics, there is absolute equality and girls in those sports do not feel like they are second-class citizens, but in Gaelic games over the years, girls have definitely felt like that. I can speak from experience that girls have felt like that. We have issues with facilities, access to supports, mileage, etc. It is so hard to be tangible when it comes to equality because a lot of it is cultural, and 13-year-old boys feel more important because we make them feel more important, and we have done that for decades. Even looking at the book here, I could not find a picture of a girl, although I only flipped through the pages. It is little things like that. From a leadership point of view, how does the GAA instil that culture of equality? What does it look like? How does the GAA measure it? What is deemed to be a success?

I began by saying that integration happens every day. If you compares the provision of services 25 years ago with now, you will see that all of the finals take place in Croke Park. Recently Ms O'Rourke and I attended the Asian Gaelic Games where there were more females playing than males. Again, considering what has happened over the last 20 years, there has been an explosion in participation by girls, particularly in Dublin there has been an incredible re-awakening of participation in camogie. That is not being matched, as I think Deputy Gibney mentioned, by the number of people who want to go and watch those people, despite the best efforts of TG4 and RTÉ broadcasting the games and given them profile. I think that situation is as much a societal thing as it is the coming together of the three organisations. I definitely think that integration can help in raising the profile of LGFA and camogie, but that is not to say that they have not done fantastic work. I always say that the GAA had over 100 years to allow girls to play but we never stepped up to the mark. If we had set up systems for ladies, let us say in camogie or football but all those years ago when the LGFA was set up, it would not be the dynamic, wonderful organisation that it is now. So we have to be very careful that we do not think that we are saving any of these organisations. The two organisations are doing really well at the moment.

It is incumbent on us to bring things to the next level and introduce, as the Senator has said, the profile and create a genuine sense of equality because, as I have said, at the moment in a lot of clubs the provision is discretionary. It will move to compulsory because the girls will become full equal members of those clubs. That is not to say that we are going to have facilities for each of those. There will still be all of those challenges but we will be in a better place to meet those challenges. At the moment each club finds its own level. That may not be satisfactory. The Senator is right that a boy feels more important than the girl. That is exactly the same situation in our house and every house. That is a challenge for society as much as it is for us.

I welcome all of the witnesses and I know a number of them personally. I, too, wish to put on record my involvement. I am a former member of Longford GAA County Board, and I have served both on the Leinster council and central council. Like Deputy Brennan, it was by being elected to the Dáil that I got out of a committee executive position in my own club after 35 years. I am still involved at an executive level and working on drawing down one of the grants that have been mentioned to erect floodlights around the club's pitch.

I thank Dr. McAleese for a comprehensive opening statement and I heard her say that united we are stronger. That is a key point for an association that will have up to 1 million members and is one of the largest and greatest amateur sports organisations in the world, without a shadow of a doubt.

I have done a lot of work in the post office and I come from a rural background. We did a report on the social dividend the network brings to the country. It ran into €300 million to €400 million worth. The social dividend the GAA gives to this country is in multiple billions. As an organisation, it gets too much criticism in certain places given the amount of work all three associations do in every single parish and community in the country.

In the past number of weeks, I had a couple of bereavements in my close family. That is when the community comes together. Key to that is the GAA club. GAA members are the first people everyone goes to marshal the car parking on the road to the church and provide a guard of honour. The club is out and we had school teams out. That was key for our family. There was so much involved, but it was our GAA community showing support for our family in a time of grief. The AGM had to be rearranged. We had it on Sunday last and when we went into the room, at the top table for all the members of the club to see, there was a beautiful montage of photographs of my cousin Shane, who was tragically killed. That is what the GAA is. That is what Gaelic games are. They are the heartbeat of every single community in this country and abroad. When we travel abroad, throughout the world we look for our local GAA club to help and support us with work or anything like that.

I have a strong view that each member has an equal vote within the association, whether it is me as a member of my club in Longford, somebody involved in the handball association or somebody who plays rounders - we have a strong rounders club. That is important and it is the way it should be. No section of the organisation or any percentage of the organisation has any more say than anyone else. The person who lines the pitch or has been washing the jerseys for the past 30 years has an equal say. The route the witnesses have taken, in engaging with every tenet of the organisation, is the right way to go. I look forward to the day that we see full integration in place. We have it in most of our clubs already.

Mr. Burns mentioned the AGM. Our LGFA member was nominated at the AGM, and that is as it should be. There are challenges. That is the reality. I was at the recent demographics launch a couple of weeks ago. The housing committee is arranging a briefing on that to show the imbalance in population that is causing problems with regard to facilities in our bigger cities, as well as rural depopulation. What are the biggest challenges with integration? Facilities and the cost of having facilities that are suitable for men and women are one challenge. As a growing organisation, the demographic challenge is a big challenge for the GAA as well. What would be the number one priority for the witnesses if they were asking the Government?

If we were asking something from the Government, it would obviously be infrastructure. Taking into consideration our recent demographics report and the figures the ardstiúrthóir has mentioned, infrastructure is the biggest challenge we have. One of the wonderful things is that the biggest problem we have is we do not have the facilities in our country to cater for the people who want to play our native games on a volunteer basis. It is a remarkable state of play that, in this day and age, 140 years on from the founding of this organisation that is charged with administering a huge chunk of Irish culture, more people than ever want to play our national games.

I began by praising the Government for its links with the GAA, and for funding, through the large-scale sporting infrastructure fund, much of our infrastructure. However, as the Deputy said, that is only the tip of the iceberg of what is required. We will work with the Government and other agencies. We have ideas of our own to get that those funds in. I mentioned that at the previous meeting, and hopefully that will reach a successful conclusion.

The second point is that at the very high performance level, we are currently spending €44 million preparing our county teams, and this figure is rising substantially every year. That is not sustainable in a fully integrated organisation and it is something our amateur status report, which we hope to get passed during congress 2026, is going to address.

Could I get a response from the other two associations?

Mr. Burns mentioned the county cost. On that, we very much welcome the increase of €1.6 million in the intercounty support scheme announced by the Government for 2026 across all codes. This will bring the fund to €7.2 million. We as an association also invest more than €1.2 million in the fund. That is one of the main challenges going forward.

As an association, over the past 30 years, we have met many challenges because we were the newest of the associations and it took a huge culture change. I am very proud to see how that has changed, how society has changed and the role ladies football now has in society. We will always be challenging to keep developing female sports alongside the male sports to make our new GAA a much stronger and more vibrant association. The will is there to do that. In communities throughout the country we can see a massive cultural change. Girls and boys play alongside each other. We had our club finals at the weekend and it is always heartening to see the crowds of young teenage boys that turn out to support the girls of the club. That is feeding into the next generation who will have a different perception of supporting the games. The big challenge is getting the profile of the female games higher and higher.

I apologise for having to step out to vote. I thank the witnesses very much for their contributions. As many of my colleagues have said, this is pioneering legislation and an incredible paper they have put in front of us. I know it has been many years in the works. I too really hope that 2027 will be a soft target but, at the same time, I am pretty certain we will be 95% there, if not more.

I was recently invited to speak in Reykjavik at the Women's Global Forum on women's equality in sport. Naturally, I chose to speak on this issue, and with great pride. They were gobsmacked, or whatever the Icelandic word for gobsmacked is, at the fact that we have come so far on this. It is such a pioneering idea. I hope this is not too archaic but one of the things that amused those at the forum somewhat was the use of the term "ladies". I will ask about this, and I apologise if somebody else has asked about it before. Will the term "ladies" be phased out, repurposed or changed to "women's sports"? It is a very well-established brand but, certainly to our younger players, it sounds a little archaic. I will begin with that.

The LGFA brand is very strong. It has served us very well over the years. Some years ago, when we were embarking on one of our strategic plans, we surveyed members and the media because at the time we were considering whether we would change it and we wanted feedback. A huge majority came back to keep "ladies". It is not something we are dealing with in our discussions at the moment, but that was the feedback some years ago. I am sure it will come up again. As I said, the LGFA is a very strong brand that our players are very proud of. You might stroll into a shopping centre or around the streets anywhere in the country at weekends and see young girls wearing LGFA tops and jerseys. That is wonderful to see and it is the same worldwide. In the past, when we travelled for games around the world it was always the GAA brand, but all the girls' teams now have their LGFA brand. It came back to that survey at the time when we were doing a strategic plan. The strong message then was that they wanted to keep it at that.

It is very hard to argue with that. I understand this is a grassroots issue, right from the ground up. We have to listen to our members and if that is the case, it comes down to tradition. That is quite positive to hear.

We also spoke about the funding issue. I do not know if anybody has raised that yet. I presume the idea is to bring girls and women players up to the level of men. There has been a perception over the years that they are slightly the poor relation. We have all stood in car parks, changing with our daughters in the back of the car, and so on. It is not to bring men down to a certain level. I presume it is hoping to bring all of that upward to a new level. How is that going to happen in terms of funding? I was just speaking with the Louth GAA. I am a Louth-based Senator. It has been a fantastic year for us in the GAA, and we really hope to keep that up. We have done incredibly well with what we have. However, to take somewhere like the Darver centre, it was built 25 years ago with male players solely in mind, to be honest. The GAA has just got planning permission to integrate female changing rooms into that, but that is going to cost extra money. I presume this will have to happen right across the counties. Where will the funding come from? Will it be an extra stream up, or is it just supposed to come from extra fundraising and the current streams?

When I go around the counties and open all of these facilities that have been built, I can see that the LSSIF, Government funding, lottery funding and local authority funding go some way. The communities themselves are fantastic at generating 80% or 90% of the money. I was recently in a club where just one member gave all of the money for the upgrade of facilities commensurate with the needs of female athletes, although he wanted to remain silent on it. We are lucky that so many businesses and people who have the capacity to fund us trust the GAA with their money. They know that we are going to use the money wisely. They know that our governance structure is very good.

The Senator is definitely right that this is going to be a challenge. That is what we are hearing all around the country. The ard stiúrthóir, I and others have been meeting the Government with plans that we would like to explore with the Government to raise that money ourselves. It is something that we can discuss offline with the Senator, if she wants to support us on that. We have been meeting the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste, the Minister for Finance, the Minister for justice and all of these people separately to get them to an understanding of what it is going to take for us to get our facilities to a level that is commensurate with the needs of female athletes. The vista that the Senator has talked about, with people getting changed in car parks, is something that we hope integration will stop. It is simply unacceptable in 2025 that girls would think it is appropriate to change in car parks.

We spoke about tradition and the fact that the young female players want it to remain as “ladies” Gaelic football. There was a mention of the cultural side and the cultural identities that these three groups have. How is that going to be maintained and not homogenised under one umbrella group? There are the very specific cultural identities of the Camogie Association and the Ladies Gaelic Football Association.

That is something we are very strong on maintaining. Having that whole legacy piece is very important to us all. Our histories are very important. Ladies football only has a 50-year history but we have made such strides in those 50 years. Camogie has a history that is much longer than ours. The important thing is that this history is not forgotten, and that the people who are involved all feel part of this new association. That will be something we are very focused on maintaining. While the associations might be gone, the sports of ladies football and camogie will always be there. Within those elements and throughout the streams, we will be maintaining a legacy piece for that.

My apologies. I was away for a vote. Some of the questions I ask might have been asked already. I thank the witnesses for being here today and for the work they are doing. I particularly welcome Dr. McAleese and thank her for her service over a number of decades.

The witnesses mentioned that the target is still 2027. That target was not made today or yesterday, but in 2023. Is there a timeline of achievements that need to be done during those years? Is the group still on target for 2027? When this was set out in 2023, X, Y and Z had to be done by 2024 and A, B and C by 2025. Is there an outline of what exactly needs to be achieved each year? Have those targets been hit?

We have a schedule that will lead us into 2027 and to the one association in 2027. We have been working to a plan, which was, first, to get all the information that we needed to have available to us before we could put a diary into effect. We are fairly close to that now.

Is there a diary that says what needs to be done by the end of the year or by next March?

Yes.

Has that been shown to us, or is that possible?

No. I made the point earlier that we are an advisory group. We are neither a decision-making group nor an implementation group. Our responsibility is to the three organisations, their decision-making bodies and their members. We have a plan that will be going forward to all the members in what we are calling a roadshow early next year, in the spring. We will be going around Ireland, showcasing the schedule that is planned, the structure within integration and what integration will look like. It is a draft plan.

When does that showcase start?

It starts in February.

How long will it go on?

It will be a very short thing. It will be over by the end of March and then we will get feedback from that. We will use that to hone, amend and change, perhaps.

That roadshow is going across the country.

Everywhere.

In six weeks.

That is correct.

Is that a bit short? This is very important. What is most important is that we get this right. The work that the group is doing at the moment is excellent. However, for a roadshow across the country, putting out the group's ideas on what needs to be done, six weeks would seem a limited amount of time to get it done. Perhaps that should be longer. Even if things get delayed slightly, it would seem-----

We will take that under advisement. We will know as we go whether it is working or not.

Is it open to being extended?

Yes. We are not saying it absolutely has to be finished by the end of March.

It is a great idea. We travel the country as Seanad candidates, but we do not get it all done in six weeks. This is something that is so important, and it needs buy-in from every community right across the country. It would seem to be an integral part of this whole process. I suggest that it should be extended a bit further.

I have a question for Mr. Burns. I thank him for his comments on the support.

I might just finish that point. We should bear in mind that not a lot of what we will be saying during the roadshow will be a big surprise.

On behalf of the GAA and all the organisations, I think the time needs to be given for people to give their opinions.

That is the whole point of it. This is precisely what we are doing.

Exactly. I presume that is the intention. I cannot see it being achieved to the satisfaction of all members across the country in the space of six weeks. That is my view.

On that point, it is probably worth noting, although it is somewhat cheeky of me to talk for the GAA-----

It is a good sign, though.

This is not the first time there has been a communication process. There is a model that has been looked at in terms of the number of meetings, the locations of meetings and the structures of it, as iar-Uachtaráin McAleese has said. It is not that we will be going to people and saying, “Boo. You have not seen any of this before.” This is part of a continuous engagement process that we have had in our congresses.

It is almost one of the last opportunities for people.

There will be a congress in February for the GAA, the LGFA congress and our congress. We are setting up five separate regional roadshow venues that will be engaging with people, and we have all the other communication mechanisms out through the respective county boards.

I worry about it. I can see it being open to criticism that it is not being extended.

As the iar-Uachtaráin said, we will take it on advisement.

I thank Mr. Burns for his comments on the support that these Houses give to the GAA. We all have our own parishes and clubs. Dr. McAleese was talking about a six-year-old. I have a six-year-old playing in the under-sixes at the moment.

He is well able to give an opinion on what needs to be done. I find that, if you want to be cheered up, you should just watch an under-sixes game. It is the best craic you could possibly have. It is just hilarious. It is so funny. The work the clubs in my parish of Ardfinnan do is phenomenal.

On integration and bringing the clubs in, as Mr. Burns has said, this will not change the fact that there are not enough pitches and not enough time to suit everyone. At the moment, it is very clear that ladies get less favourable treatment than men in a lot of clubs, although not in all. When this integration happens, which I hope will go extremely well, it will not change the fact that there are problems in terms of the time available for people to train, to change and to do those sorts of things. I acknowledge that Mr. Burns has said the Government has done a lot because it has. However, it seems the Government needs to step up more in terms of funding for clubs post integration. Is that the view of the GAA? The sports capital grant next year is to prioritise clubs that are pro-integration. There have been a number of negative comments about the integration. I presume that is not helpful to the work being done. Although funding from the Government has been very good in the last number of years, it needs to increase over the next number of years to support this integration. Is that the view of the GAA?

It is. We would also urge local authorities to look at the integration with respect to their own strategic plans for infrastructure. There can be a feeling on the ground that the local authority will make a few soccer pitches or rugby pitches and that the GAA will look after itself. We always do but one of the difficulties shown by the demographic report is that there are many swathes, particularly in the west of Ireland, where there would be no issue at all and where people will be delighted to have as many people as possible playing on the pitches because there are great facilities but not much of a population. As the ard stiúrthóir mentioned and as is described in the demographics report, the issue is with the places within 50 miles of Dublin and that line behind which half of the population of Ireland are living. In my remarks at the launch of that report, I asked whether this is what we set out to achieve. Did we want so much of the population to move to the east of the country? It is incumbent on all of us, including the GAA, the new GAA or whatever you want to call it, and the Government, to make provision for that. Across the water, for every 1,000 houses a developer builds, 6 acres of green space must be provided. Approximately 80% of that has to be for sport. We do not have that provision in the Twenty-six Counties. That is the sort of thinking we need. We need to marry demographics with integration. There are priorities for all of us here, both Government and this new organisation.

I thank the witnesses not just for being here today, but for the work they do more generally. The role of the GAA within local communities is often not spoken about enough. It obviously makes a sporting contribution, but its contribution to building community is critical. A lot of the discussion has been on the barriers and what more we can do. There are a lot of very positive examples of the associations working together. I see that already, particularly at local level. I will give the witnesses an opportunity to talk about those positive examples of the associations working effectively locally.

Mr. Burns mentioned a price tag of €40 million for men's teams' preparations. What are the costs for the women's teams? What costs are envisaged in the full integration? Will those figures balloon? What will need to be done in that space?

I will make one small comment on the first part, the instances at local level and right through the organisations where they are already working together. There is no better witness to that than the work we have done over the last three years. I am not just talking about the people around this table but about the enormous number of volunteers who work pro bono on top of all of their other everyday work and their other GAA, LGFA and Camogie Association work. They have worked on the committees and workshops I have mentioned. If we were to pay for that, you would be talking about an astronomical figure. These groups were all made up of members of the three organisations. They have worked together to create the kind of information we need to process to navigate our way to full integration. That should not be forgotten. At every level, you will find people working together. You can look at the work being done on fixtures as an example. That has always been an issue. When there is one organisation and one membership, it will make huge changes but it will not change the actual availability of facilities. That is the project going forward. We have to leave some work for the new GAA to do. Strong on its agenda will be getting an uplift in facilities, particularly to respect the women, whom we really want to feel, as Senators Ní Chuilinn and Comyn said earlier, the dynamic that the momentum is now behind them to come up to a different level.

Deputy Byrne is right to laud all the great work that happens at grassroots level as regards things being done together and integration by proxy. However, it is not only at grassroots level. We may not do enough of a job of getting the message out that everything the three organisations do, we do together. The Deputy asked for examples. A couple of things spring immediately to mind. We had a youth forum in Croke Park very recently. Young people from all over the country, from every code and discipline, came together to tell us what to do and when to do it. A really positive message came out of that with regard to integration, not just as a project but as a concept. One of the things I learned from that is that young people just want to play. By and large, as far as they are concerned, Gaelic games are a combined movement. They are not really too preoccupied with who sits on various committees. They just want to get on with it. I learned an awful lot from that. That is a regular event in our calendar. It is getting more and more important. It is a joint initiative of the three organisations.

In February, we will have the club summit, which is a great event. That will address some of the things Senator Ahearn spoke about. People from clubs all over the country, of whatever hue, will come to Croke Park to go through a little programme of specific events geared at helping people run clubs. Parallel to that, we will listen to them as they tell us what is on their minds. That is an avenue for us to hear a little feedback on the ideas that are starting to emerge from our process. Again, the key thing is that it is for what I will not call GAA clubs, but Gaelic games clubs. There is very little that we do independently of each other. While I do not for a second want to underplay it, all this project is trying to do is to formalise that. We will be all the better for it when we have done that.

A lot of the time, we concentrate on what happens at club level and the great work that goes on there, but I have a page here detailing over 30 things where we collaborate very successfully. This started long before 2023. The three organisations were organically on that pathway of thinking ahead towards integration. We work together on the future leader programmes and female leadership. Our Gaelic games pathways are the same. We work on female coach academies. It is literally everything. We have our player pathways and concussion guidelines.

It is a really positive message.

All our policies are one but that is not the story people hear about.

Mr. Burns mentioned the €40 million for the men's games. What are the costs we are looking at with regard to integration?

The Deputy is right in mentioning that. At the very beginning, Deputy Brennan asked about resistance. If you want to talk about apprehension or anxiety as opposed to resistance, that is mainly coming from county boards. Is that going to be multiplied by three? The biggest challenge facing us is trying to reduce the amount of money we are spending on county teams. That is why amateur status has been one of the main planks of my presidency. In preparation for integration, we have to make ourselves integration-ready as well. That is one of the major areas in which we are going to have to do that. We simply will not be able to sustain an organisation if we are spending €120 million every year on preparing county teams. That will not work for any of us.

That is where the area of apprehension is. It is difficult for us to control. Even such things as having a proper closed season is difficult for us to control because team members want to get back as quickly as possible to give themselves an edge. In any place where there is a high-performance culture, people will know the teams want to do that bit extra to give themselves that bit of an edge. There is no point in me saying all of that is going to streamline perfectly and segue wonderfully. That is going to be a challenge for all of us and for all of the counties. That is why there is apprehension and anxiety among county boards.

This meeting has been really useful. What I have taken from it is something Dr. McAleese said in relation to an advisory role in decision-making. That point needs to get out there. Bringing three legs together through the democratic process of each organisation creates a difficulty for the chair because, as regards communications, there is a lock until the three organisations come together following their separate decision-making processes. That is not fully communicated. A meeting with this committee once a year to discuss this integration process would be very useful. It could be held at this time of year because things have moved on as regards fixtures. I feel the witnesses have been more open and have more capacity to be open here than necessarily in other situations because they are constrained by what I just said. For the media watching this, a lot more information has come out in a consolidated way here, which is very useful.

I am from Tipperary. We are the greatest-----

He lasted 90 seconds.

I was tempted to say that too but thought I would be professional and not talk about it.

Senator Ahearn had the greatest year. Actually, because my wife is from Waterville, south Kerry, we had an incredible year. I am from a little club called Portroe which is very well known as a result of Liam Sheedy and lots of other great people. However, the best part of my year was not Tipperary or Kerry winning. I am chair of the development group in the club and we raised a lot of money to open new facilities. On 19 October, across all our group of clubs within the GAA family there, we opened those facilities. For me, that was the most important and the best day. Obviously, it is at the parish level, working closely with our fantastic chairman, Tom Gallahue, and great committees.

When I think about integration all I can see is my own daughter, Aoibhe. She is a fanatic at club level, school and county level. She plays camogie and ladies Gaelic football. My wife, Regina, helped to set up the ladies football club because she wanted to play football. We did not have a ladies club. Aoibhe is my daughter so trust me when I say she has similar attributes to me. She questions a lot of things. I was talking to her about this meeting because her questions are probably the most legitimate. She asked why it is that the lads - she always says that when referring to the boys - got such and such gear and the girls did not get any; why her team's match is on so far away or so early; why it gets the not-so-good dressing rooms, even if there are dressing rooms, or why the dressing rooms were closed; and why there were umpires at the county semi-final but none for the final because there were four matches on the same day. These are all legitimate questions that will have to be ironed out.

I also had to go through the issue of the difference between equality and equity. They are not very different but have two different meanings in this process and how we go through it all.

Like Senator Ní Chuilinn, I was very taken by Conor Meyler's contribution to this committee a few months ago. There will have to be a lightbulb moment. There will have to be a time when not everything will be perfect and we just have to switch. He encapsulated something for us that we were struggling with.

I have a few questions. I am taken by what Mr. Burns said as regards issues with structure at county level. I actually think clubs will embrace this. When you get to money, costs and, dare I say, power and status, with that structure at county level there are going to be issues. A cost of €120 million is just not sustainable. I heard that said before. What is the process for helping to deal with the issue at that level? Let us be frank, we are politicians, but we are only in the ha'penny place when it comes to the politics of that level, to be honest. That is the first question.

Where my wife's family comes from, near Ballinskelligs, there is the issue of demographics. We have a demographic issue in our own club in Portroe, in that we are small, but down there St. Michael's had to merge with Foilmore. They had to skip St. Mary's, Cahirsiveen, Skellig Rangers and Waterville. They are not geographically in touch. They had to jump about 25 km to have a sustainable club. As part of integration, the whole issue of how we are going to deal with the demographic changes in this country is a closely related issue that could possibly be touched on as part of this work. There are urban and rural issues.

I get the issues in relation to where we are going. We have to signal the issue in relation to integration. For instance, the camogie ladies club finals were on at the same time this year. It would have been good if that did not happen. In Tipperary both came together and had one joint calendar so that they did not clash. It would be good if that could change.

New CEOs were appointed to two of the organisations. Were the appointments made with a view to the future integration? Obviously, in the future we are not going to have three CEOs. That is a fairly direct question.

The last question relates to something Mr. Burns said. I read between the lines in relation to what he said about future funding. The Exchequer is not going to deliver all of this. That is impossible. Will he elaborate a bit more, within reason? I know he cannot go into the issue in depth. Those are my questions. I have taken a small bit of liberty.

It is rarely I do that.

I will take a couple of those, on the cost of county teams and the moment when we are going to have to change. The third question was on other sources of funding. The cost of county teams is one of the things that when I became president of the GAA I said we needed to address because that is what I was being told. When I went around the country canvassing it was a juggernaut. That is why we brought in the new amateur status code. It might be hard to believe that until now the GAA was a governance organisation where we did not have a regulatory power. At congress we have a new proposal that will redefine what it means to be an amateur athlete at the elite level. However, it is also going to obligate counties to apply for a high performance licence to run their county teams. Under that is going to be populated with lots of things. There will be a greater framework around the closed season and the amount of money being spent, particularly given the interest the Revenue has shown in the payment of people who are around county teams. We hope that, by that evolutionary process, we will start to get costs down. The GAA is not like a company where the CEO comes in and says "This is the way it is going to be". We are a democratic organisation. We have to take our members with us. I cannot predict the outcome of that but that is how we are addressing the issue.

The second issue the Cathaoirleach talked about has come up here quite a bit. People talk about the experience of their daughters versus the experience of their sons. We are looking through the lens of where we are now. This group is trying to get us to a new place where that will change. On the issue of umpires for the boys, that can just be as simple as a referee ringing a few of his friends to ask them to referee a game. It comes down to the status of the female versus the male. The Cathaoirleach's daughter is right.

As a school principal, I can tell you that young girls moving up through system will not stand for that any more, and they will be the leaders of the future. That is something that is going to help us.

I will be a bit more specific, if the ard-stiúrthóir does not mind, regarding the talks we have had with the Government. The last time I was here I talked about the immigrant investor programme, IPP, and how that helped us. All the members who are involved in clubs will know that really assisted clubs. I think of Midleton in Cork in particular. There is an explosion of population there. Without the IPP funding, it would not have been able to build the three extra fields that it needed to continue as a club. We are trying to work with the Government to change the focus of that and to look at the lessons that have been learned from the IPP and from the change to the philanthropic fund whereby there will be a lot more scrutiny around it and it will be a lot more nimble. If we get that across the line, we could be in a position where we would not be going to the Government for funding. We could be using the incredible goodwill there is around the world towards our country to raise funding. As I said, Ms O’Rourke and I are just back from the Asian Games. The number of people on that continent who are keen to invest in the new GAA is mesmerising. If we can get that across the line, it will be a major assistance.

We will move on now or the members will give out to me. Does Senator Byrne wish to make a brief contribution?

I welcome the fact the Cathaoirleach is allowing me to make a short contribution. I have been a member of the GAA since I was six years old and am very proud to be. My own journey in politics began when I became club secretary in my local GAA club. There was probably more politics involved in that than in anything I do up here. I wish to ask about the move from three to one. I have served on the Wexford county board and the Leinster council. I have been involved in fixtures and various other things. I agree with previous speakers in that I do not see there being any issue here at club level. Outside of facilities, clubs will very much grab this and work with it. In my own experience, that is happening already. Where the difficulty is going to come is at county and provincial level, particularly around fixtures. Do the witnesses envisage that there will one coiste bainistí and one competitions control committee, CCC, or will it be one association and three separate independent committees operating within that? How is that going to work in a real-world, practical sense?

The plan and the vision is for one association, one coiste bainistí. There will need to be an overarching oversight of fixtures, but the Senator is right in that it is a complex machine. I am not even talking about national level; at local level that is going to require special knowledge and insight for each of the codes, but it is in no way independent. There has to be a commonality and common approach to the timing, calendar, venues and match officials. That is one of the biggest changes that we will see.

It is interesting to hear the comments of the committee because they are quite perceptive. In different ways, three or four people have mentioned things that all point to county level. They are right. Club-wise, I will not say it is there because there is a bit of work to do, but it is very encouraging. On the governing bodies, we have worked out broadly what it will look like and, to the Senator's question, that there will be one organisation, one coiste bainistí, one CCC and so on. On county level, there is work to be done and there are nuances to that. We have to strike a balance. As we know, although we might not like to admit it, there is a valuable degree of autonomy at county level in all three associations. That is important and it has to be preserved to some degree.

We will get it wrong at county level if we make the workload too onerous for any one cohort. There is more than enough work. We do not have enough people to do the work that required at the moment. Each of us is led by volunteers. We have to be conscious that we cannot multiply the workload that is there at the moment. We cannot put it all on the shoulders of people who are from any one of the three organisations. We need everybody involved. Part of that means making sure that each of the three organisations and the people who work in them still feel that they have an important role to play and are valued. I will not use the word "autonomy", but identity is the thing. Irrespective of what their background was and what organisation they were working in, they should feel that there is a place and role for them in the new organisation. We will share out the workload and the identity of the constituent parts will be preserved.

We have a model worked out that we think addresses that. That is part of the roadshow piece that we start in February, where we will be explaining what a county structure will look like. We will get into some of those nuances that the Senator referenced in terms of fixtures. I have no doubt that people will ask us about other aspects, but we will listen to that and frame our thinking around it. We are ready to start that work now. The county part is going to be crucial.

On the financing end, it is hugely important. I mentioned what the organisations are doing for the social infrastructure of every town, village and city in Ireland. They are doing a job that some of our councils should be doing. They are upgrading facilities that are for the kids and adults in those towns and villages. Have the organisations costed this?

Mr. Burns touched on my second question. If the GAA is going to come to the Government looking for funds, can it reassure us today that its house is in order in relation to unregulated payments to managers, at both club and intercounty level?

My final question is a curveball but I have to ask it given that Mr. Burns is here. Within the past 24 hours, there has been a serious debate in this very building in relation to the Presidency. Can Mr. Burns confirm if he was approached or intended to run?

Deputy-----

Sorry, it is just while we are here. I rarely have Mr. Burns in front of me. Back to the key questions-----

It is totally off topic.

I will answer the third question first. Yes, I was approached, but I was not interested. I am already president of the GAA.

Our demographics committee is doing quite a lot of work around local authorities. I agree with what the Deputy said. That committee is meeting the County and City Management Association, CCMA, and is going to work with it on the provision of facilities.

On the matter of unregulated payments, our counties are working with Revenue at the moment. Each of them is doing their own piece of work along with Croke Park. I am confident that all of those matters will be resolved by them. We have worked closely. It is very important that we send a strong message that the GAA is fully complaint and that we pay all the tax that we owe because that tax comes back to us. We are not going to shy away from any of those challenges.

Absolutely.

I have one small thing to say about the facilities. In our previous discussions, both here and with members of the Government, we have made it clear that the GAA, the LGFA and the Camogie Association, and in particular the new and expanded GAA, will not always be looking for something specifically customised or dedicated exclusively for the use of the GAA. Rather, at local level, it could be multi-use involving schools and other sports. We are looking at sport and the availability and accessibility of sport in a much broader way. We are part of a story. We are a big part of it, but only part of it.

Is there a price on that?

No, unless the Deputy wants to be scared.

Some of the topics that I raised around equality, particularly for women's sports, were raised by others but I will circle back to it briefly. I appreciate what Mr. Burns said about this being a bigger societal issue, and Mr. Ryan commented on this being in the people of the association. As Dr. McAleese said, however, this is going to be 1 million people. It is the witnesses as leadership who have to show the way. I would argue that because the GAA is such a fundamental part of Irish society, it has an opportunity to show us all how equality can truly be done. On the comments on the changing of the name that Senator Comyn raised, there is a reason we struggle calling women the same as men. It is because we live in a gender-ordered society, a patriarchal society, and we are all products of that. It is important. Even today, the word "female" is being used a lot more than "women".

I know this is because of the discussions we are having, but it is because we value women less than we value men. We all have to be aware of that, so I just urge the steering group to be custodians of that equality in our society and to really make it a feature. Of course, that extends beyond women into LGBTQI+ and everybody else we need to make sure is included in this organisation.

I have two specific questions. The first is around the club constitution. We are aware a new constitution is to be developed. What will consultation look like with the Gaelic Players Association, GPA, on that development process?

The second question is about schools. I am aware that the unit of the game is the club, but what initiatives has the steering group prepared or proposed in relation to schools around integration and making sure that it is a feature in that domain as well? That question is to whoever wishes to take a turn from earlier.

Was it the GPA and the club constitution? Was that the nature of the question?

Yes. What mechanism for players' consultation will be included in the development of the constitution?

We have a fantastic relationship with the GPA. I think I am correct in saying that later this afternoon we will be signing the recently agreed recognition protocol-----

So the GPA is part of it anyway?

Not specifically in the context of the club constitution, I must admit, which is why I asked the question. I had not, and I do not think we had and perhaps the GPA had not, envisaged the association being part of the club constitution element, given that it represents intercounty players and so on. I am not answering that in a defensive way, but I am just surprised at the question and we will just have to ponder that. I had not anticipated-----

The GPA has been in with us twice now and has been with each of the codes separately.

It has raised plenty of things.

It has raised loads of things but not the club constitution, no.

Yes, it has raised plenty of things but not the club constitution.

Okay. It might be worth asking.

On the second part of the Deputy's question, in terms of quality, we are perhaps starting from a better position than we-----

The schools aspect was the second part of my question, recognising of course that the unit of the game is clubs. In relation to the integration programme and project, what is the group doing to engage schools?

As a school principal, I can tell the Deputy that the schools are a lot further ahead than one would think with regard to integration, and particularly mixed schools. I was principal of a school of 1,800 boys and girls. Girls in schools have a lot more to say than they have in clubs because they are there every day and they are represented every day, so in schools we are a lot further on. Schools, however, do suffer the same difficulties as clubs in terms of facilities and getting access to facilities. Boys' and girls' teams in schools have the same difficulties and the same challenges in getting access to facilities. It really depends on the school you go into as to the profile of Gaelic games in general. Some of them might be a camogie school, some might be a girls' GAA school or a boys' GAA school. It just depends on the school you go into. We do work very closely and our schools have a position on central council.

I thank all the speakers. I was listening online for a bit. I apologise that I am only coming in now. I welcome all the witnesses to the committee this morning and thank them for coming in. I acknowledge the profound role that the GAA, the LGFA and the Camogie Association have had on me and my family. Everybody in this room is from different backgrounds but I can assure the witnesses that from my perspective I was born and reared as GAA so it is just embodied in my blood and in who I am as a person. A community without a strong GAA club is a community without a soul, in my opinion.

I acknowledge all the huge work that has gone into the integration process to date from the witnesses. It is not an easy task when there are 1 million members and 4,000-odd clubs to combine that in together. I do not see a situation where on 1 January 2027 we will flick a switch and everything will be perfect. It is not going to work like that. I have seen huge strides in clubs around Kilkenny, where I am from, and huge integration. It may not be done formally, as in a formal process, but there is that collegiality, collaboration and making sure that female camogie players have as much access to pitch time as male hurlers, and that underage girls have the same time as boys. We must not lose sight of all that brilliant work that has been done. Yes, it would be great to have it all formalised, but whether that happens in 2027 or 2029 is irrelevant to me because the most important thing here is that all three organisations are working closely together for the betterment of players and for communities right across the country, from the 95-year-old man whose only social outlet every week is to go down to the club and watch a training session or a match to the four-year-old player coming through in my club. It does not matter if a player is going to be the next superstar or if just getting down to training as an achievement in itself. Male or female, there is no discrimination and everybody gets access to whatever sport. That is absolutely to be acknowledged here.

I hear a lot of talk about female participation and access. There have been huge strides in female sports and particularly in the GAA, the LGFA and camogie over the last number of years. It has been huge. I look at my own club with the impact and input the camogie club has on our club as a whole. My club is called Blacks and Whites GAA club and it is fantastic, but without the women or ladies, or whatever you want to call them, we would not be a functioning club because they are absolutely essential. That is right around the country. It is really important that while we do need to get to this formalised approach, and I totally accept that, it is also important for the witnesses as a group to take a step back and give themselves a clap on the back for the huge strides that have been made. I know clubs that have the one model and there are challenges there absolutely, but to me it is not even about one model. It is about making sure that the access to infrastructure and services and access to sport is there for all players, young and old.

I have one question, if the Cathaoirleach will indulge me-----

After that soliloquy, this is the question limit for you.

-----in relation to rural Ireland. I am from a rural town or village with a population of 400 and 120 houses. We have a really small club and we have challenges and difficulties at underage. For example, young players are only allowed play for four years. In camogie and ladies' football, they can only play for up to four years and it can be very tight to get teams. We are seeing a situation in Kilkenny now where certain clubs are merging at minor and under-21s to make teams, which is fine, but how is that going to work with the one-club model, for example where there is a GAA club and perhaps the camogie club might need to merge with another club? Muckalee Ladies Gaelic Football Club won the junior all-Ireland final in Kilkenny this week, which is absolutely unbelievable, and I just want to acknowledge all the phenomenal work that is done. People think Kilkenny is a hurling county and a camogie county, and it is, but for those women to do what they did-----

Okay, Deputy-----

-----for the whole parish of Muckalee is a phenomenal achievement-----

The Deputy might reel it in.

-----and that needs to be acknowledged here today. My question is just in relation to the merging of clubs where one element of the club, say the hurling club, is stand-alone but maybe the ladies' football is merged in three different clubs, or where the camogie club could be merged too. How is that going to work in the context of the integration?

Okay, Deputy you had a lot of time. Will the witness be very brief on that?

We are not planning on interfering with the current catchment areas. There are certain things that fall squarely within the scope of this project and things we should change. There are certain other things that work well and it is not in the first phase of this project to change catchment areas. We are going to leave that as is.

As commented on by a number of people, the €120 million for intercounty squads is unsustainable. That is a fact. It is one of the biggest stumbling blocks to full integration. That needs to be to be highlighted.

On the immigrant investment programme, there are untapped multimillion euros for investment. We have mentioned coming to the Government for funding but there are hundreds of millions of euro outside this country that could be invested here through that scheme. We have mentioned the significant amount of money that will be needed to upgrade facilities, provide new facilities and provide facilities for female participation in our sports. That has to be prioritised. I would like this committee to look at this and put it forward with the Department such that it would prioritise delivering the investment programme that is needed and tap into the hundreds of millions of euro that is out there, rather than having clubs coming to the taxpayer.

While we are chatting about money, and I think this came up earlier, it seems that some clubs are still charging LGFA clubs and camogie clubs. We need to come out extremely strong on that or put something in place so that this will stop from today onwards.

I completely agree. It is not a good signal either.

It is not acceptable at all and I think we need to send out something clear on that.

I fully agree with the Deputy. Again, that is down to individual clubs.

Some do and some do not, depending on the status of the other two organisations within that club. I could not agree more with the Deputy. It sends out all the wrong signals, particularly when we are talking about integration being something that is happening every day now. These are the things which should be cleared up straight away and should be dealt with.

Regarding the first point about the role of Gaelic games in general society with regard to Government and funding, we as an organisation have never gone to Government with a begging bowl. We have a symbiotic relationship with Government. Sometimes it benefits from being involved with us and we benefit from the funding that comes from it. Very often, the Government comes to the GAA to get out a message that it needs to get out. Last week, I in was is Poole in Dorset with the RNLI, an organisation that, like the GAA, relies on volunteers. It does incredible work saving lives around the coastline. The RNLI knows that if it comes to the GAA, we will send the message out for it, namely, "Float to live, if you fall into the sea". These are things that we know the Government relies on us to use our influence and authority with our members to do. We are quite happy to do so and we will continue to do so, regardless of funding streams. I really welcome the comment the Deputy made about approaching the Government regarding the rejuvenation of the IIP scheme. We are not calling it that. It will be a different focus but it would have the same impact.

Mention was made a few minutes ago of the increased participation of females in the GAA. How many female participants are there in camogie and ladies' football, currently?

There are over 212,000 members in our association.

Is that both combined?

No, that is ladies.

What has the increase been in the last number of years in terms of participation?

We are usually increasing by about 10% per year. I was looking back at the last three years. We have had an increase of 23% in our membership in the last three years.

That is very good. One of the successes of the FAI has been to increase membership by 27% in the last three years. This comes from the success in female sport, the World Cup, Katie McCabe and all of that. I was privileged to be at the ladies' football final and the camogie final this year. They are spectacular days and inspiring for people to see the success. With the integration, it is so important that the increase in female participation is still a priority, when it becomes one association.

Mr. Burns mentioned how local authorities have a key role to play. Has the advisory group met the chief executives of all 26 counties?

No, but our demographics committee is doing that piece of work for us, because-----

When Mr. Burns says "doing that piece of work", does he mean meeting them all?

No, we will meet the County and City Management Association. Its representatives are very keen to meet us as well to talk about the challenges around the demographic support. Amateur status support, demographic support and all of these things are happening on the periphery of integration but are equally as important as integration, because demographics are about where people live. The demographics committee is doing that piece of work for us.

Regarding decision-making by the local authorities about funding, let us say, a car park outside a GAA club or improved road infrastructure, the chief executive of the council who makes the decision. The chief executive is obviously very influential and there is one in each county. It would seem beneficial for the advisory group to meet them. We cannot rely on county boards to meet them when some county boards are not yet fully in favour of what is happening. It would seem beneficial for the group to meet the chief executives of all local authorities when Mr. Burns says the local authorities need to play a key role.

The demographics committee is a national committee of the GAA, rather than having a county board function. The people on the committee have the expertise on demographics. We are mindful of the amount of engagement that GAA clubs have with the strategic plans of local authorities. We need to speak to our units about this. There is no doubt that we would be underresourced in terms of GAA pitches in terms of local authorities. The Minister, Deputy O'Donovan, has mentioned this as well. That is not a criticism of them. There are many reasons for this but we want to engage with them about it in the future, ensuring that where they have a strategic plan, the GAA is, not front and centre, but certainly given a prominent position in terms of green spaces for people to play Gaelic games.

I thank the witnesses for their work and their contribution here today. I would like to single out former President McAleese as I have been a huge admirer of hers for many years. I thank her for her service, past, present and definitely future. I congratulate the witnesses on the perfect gender balance on the panel. I do not know if that was by design or by accident. It is like the a scene from the "Ballroom of Romance" the way they are separated. I have definitely aged myself with that reference.

What targets are being set in this plan for gender balance in coaching, officiating and administration in this plan?

I will take this question as well. It must be remembered that ours is a volunteer-led organisation. This type of organisation has to wait for people to come through the door to offer their help. We can only speak from our own experiences in our own club. We do have a very strong gender balance. Our management committee has a 40% gender balance. Since that has happened, it has transformed the national GAA management committee. As Deputy Cleere said about his own club, it is very difficult to comment on this as a male without seeming to be patronising and condescending. When I was growing up, clubs were male, pale and stale places. They were very conservative, very slow to move and very cold places. In the past 25 years, with the rejuvenation of women's participation in sport, there is no doubt that clubs have been transformed. It is very difficult for us because it is not like a workplace where a gender balance can be imposed. We have to wait and see who is going to come and who is going to volunteer. We can encourage and we do so all the time. I know that when I ask a woman to help out with a team, she will reply that she will help out but she will not take the lead role. I think it is about getting women into the position to say they will take the lead role and be prepared to lead a team and take all the decisions. That is a challenge but in our club we do have an incredible gender balance. I do not have figures but it is certainly a challenge for all of Irish society.

I do have some actually. Coming to the bigger question first, we see balance as a value and as an important metric in terms of how we do with this process. However, we have not expressed it in terms of gender balance targets. There is another aspect to the representation challenge, which is equally, if not more, important, and that is code representation. We want to make sure that, irrespective of gender, people emanating from all the codes have an opportunity to participate and that the codes are reflected appropriately at the appropriate levels.

Mr. Burns mentioned the number of women involved in administration. I am talking only about the GAA at this stage. We have approximately 30,000 executive club members around the country. Off the top of my head, I think 32% of these are women. We are starting from not a bad position, without having imposed any external targets. The people are there and our job is to make sure that the structures are in place to attract women to aspire to taking up those roles in the new organisation. We are starting from a good place and that is without imposing any specific, discrete targets or percentages.

I do not want to use up all my time by speaking so I have a few rapid-fire questions to pick up on a few things. One of them is for Mr. Burns so I will wait for him to come back. When will the club constitution be mandatory and what does it look like? Has there been communication with the clubs already about it? When will it come in? Will it be 2027 or will it be before that? Is it expected that there will be any motions regarding integration at congress next year? Have there been any indications of anything like that? Will the witnesses elaborate on the high-performance licence for inter-county teams? Is that just for men and is it just to keep costs down for backroom teams and the unsustainable costs associated with those? I have another question for Mr. Burns but I will wait for him to come back, so whoever wants to answer the others first can do so.

The licence is a GAA initiative so it is GAA only.

Yes, but in a couple of years the GAA will be everyone, so I just wanted to clarify if it is men only.

The proposal in front of us in February 2026 is a GAA proposal and we are talking about the male game.

From the high-performance licence, okay.

That is not to say that it is not important in the other codes, but as it stands today, we are, ambitions notwithstanding, separate organisations and we are putting in place that governance structure for the GAA as it stands today.

The Senator asked about-----

Is the club constitution coming into play soon?

The timeline will be the same. It will be a 2027 initiative. What was the third question?

Does Mr. Ryan expect any further integration-related motions next year?

Not emanating from us. That is something we will have to tease out.

Has it been signposted to Mr. Ryan?

No.

The amount of work that has been done is really positive. The witnesses now have corporate knowledge after two and a half or three years working on this. It would be a shame to have to hand it over when presidents change. Ms O'Rourke has been a phenomenal leader for women in sports since 1997 and I congratulate her on her career. I know she is finishing up at the end of the year. I hope her work on this integration committee does not finish because the knowledge she brings is really important. Mr. Burns has got a handle on this over the past couple of years and has an understanding of the equality that is needed. Could he also stay on the integration committee? It is really important. We have one chance to get this right. These are the people who have been doing all the work so if there was space for them to stay, would they be willing to stay on?

While I am retiring, it will now be at our congress in March. Our central council has asked me to stay involved on the integration committee, which I am happy to do because I will always be involved in ladies' football.

That is up to the incoming president. We will have a president elect in February 2026. Whoever that is will take over in 2027. If they request that I stay on, I will be delighted and honoured to stay on.

I think the witnesses would need to find a big table. They could all sit at it then.

That is a good sign.

I think we might look at the international investor programme as a way of funding. Mr. Burns used the word "symbiotic". That is what it is. It is the relationship between sporting codes and the community. Anything this committee can do to support, we will. It is reflective of what is happening in society. It is not going to be a light bulb moment. It involves small little moves that are going to happen and where an individual, who is normally a he and is stuck in a way of doing things, suddenly thinks maybe we do need to change. I can see how the GAA and other sporting codes are integrating those with disabilities and the LGBT community far more. I pay tribute to Mr. Burns's fellow Armagh man, Mark Shields, for his coming out. The organisation is becoming a lot more reflective of society, which will be welcomed. It is that process. I never worry too much about language. If somebody's intention is right, we support them in that regard.

Amid all this positivity, I want to mention a very good friend of mine Aoife Parle, who is secretary of Wexford GAA. She is a phenomenal organiser who has been raising a concern about abuse of officials such as referees and other match officials. This is not just an issue for the GAA. It is an issue in wider sporting codes and an issue this committee has dealt with. Women tend to get far more abuse than men in all aspects of society. It is certainly true in politics. Has this been an issue? How can we combat it? Mr. Burns spoke about getting somebody into the position and they are volunteers. They do not deserve the abuse they receive. Is there anything we can do in terms of support to tackle that?

We introduced our campaign entitled "Take a Second" a few years ago. What we are trying to say to people is that before they start shouting or talking, they should step back, take a second and talk. Within the female codes, it is about encouraging more females to take up refereeing and get involved in officiating. That is part of our leadership programmes, which we are working on across all codes. We are working to get more females involved and to get young girls involved. Some of the clubs might organise silent sidelines and try different things out but it is about encouraging young girls to get involved from very early on. It is always that voice in the crowd. How does one control that? It is very hard to control.

The Football Review Committee has changed the culture of Gaelic football. Players who are playing Gaelic football have one attitude towards our framework. We are finding the following week that when they are going out playing hurling, they have a different one because those proposals have not been introduced in hurling with regard to how to treat the referee. This links in with the manager. The manager is part of that. That has been transformative from our perspective. It has not stopped it but it has changed it.

We will put 9 December 2026 in our diaries because I think we should do it as a yearly thing, It is a good idea. Were the two CEO positions I asked about filled with the integration process as part of decision-making or as part of the conditionality around it?

Yes, probably once. What is going to be really important after 2027 are the following few years. While discussing and planning it, we felt that we needed strong leadership to continue that.

So it was part of the interview process. It was mentioned that catchment areas were not going to be changed. I get that. I will use a very easy example - Portroe hurling, Gaelic football and camogie. In order for my wife and her colleagues to get a ladies' football team together, they have to go to three or four other clubs because they do not have them. How does integration work there? Will players who play ladies' Gaelic football from Portroe, Burgess, Kiladangan and other clubs have to be members of two clubs? I presume so.

The Cathaoirleach mentioned a specific scenario regarding his own area.

By way of explanation.

The camogie players from our club play for either Mullaghbawn or Crossmaglen. In order for that to happen, they have to be members of two clubs because if we were to start up a camogie club, the other two would fail. In order for those two to succeed, we need the girls from Silverbridge playing-----

So in north Armagh, the ladies' Gaelic football club would fall if it did not have members from other clubs.

Correct. Our administrative system, Foireann, allows for that.

Regarding the roadshow, from what we are discussing and all the issues we have gone through, I would encourage the witnesses to widen that a bit.

There is a misunderstanding about the length of time. The roadshow has two elements. One is us going out every March, which is pretty much programmatic now, while the other is the feedback from that, which is not within that same timeframe.

There is probably quite a lot of information that needs to be distilled or has been distilled but has not been communicated. Could a pack with a lot of information and statistics on the increase in membership and involvement be put together? All this information could be shared with the committee as a useful exercise because we will have other discussions about funding and lots of other issues that will help the witnesses if they provide us with the information. I was very taken by the comment about Ger Ryan and this committee and the number of steering group meetings and sub-meetings. If this information could be shared with us, I would appreciate it because it would be useful.

I thank the witnesses for their time today. It was a very useful meeting. We want more information about this than has ever been produced before. There have been significant learnings about it. There are also some opportunities for the committee to help the witnesses. Obviously, they will get support from Government, Ministers and everyone else. Going through a committee structure, we can tease things out and maybe help in decision-making at governmental level as the parent committee to support as well.

I thank the witnesses very much for their engagement and time. We will see them this time next year.

On behalf of our group, I thank each and every one of the members. It has been fantastic to hear the individual stories from each member about the importance of GAA in their lives-----

We need them all for social media.

-----despite the little bit of rivalry.

We have some private business to do. I ask members to stay in the room.