Apologies have been received from Deputies Carrigy and Brennan and Senator Ní Chuilinn.

Today's meeting has been convened to consider the development of Ireland's live music industry. I welcome the following witnesses. From the Irish Musical Rights Organisation, IMRO, we have Mr. Victor Finn, chief executive, and Ms Lisa Ní Choisdealbha, director of media licensing and public affairs. From the Event Industry Association of Ireland, EIAI, we have Ms Elaine O'Connor, co-founder, and Mr. Martin Moran, member of the Event Industry Association of Ireland and Alternative Entertainments.

The format of today's meeting is such that I will invite the witnesses to deliver an opening statement, which is limited to five minutes. The statements will then be followed by questions from members of the committee. As the witnesses are probably aware, the committee will publish the opening statements and briefings on its webpage. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Before we move to today's discussion, I would like to clarify some limitations in relation to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege in respect of the presentations they make to the committee. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege, and it is my duty as Chair to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I now invite Ms O'Connor of the Event Industry Association of Ireland to deliver her opening statement.

I thank the Chair and members for the opportunity to contribute to the committee’s work on developing Ireland’s live music industry. Attending with me today is Mr. Martin Moran.

The EIAI’s core position is that live music policy cannot succeed without an events delivery ecosystem that is safe, resourced, locally enabled, measurable and repeatable. Post Covid, the sector did not only lose revenue but it lost repeatable delivery capacity and the ability to deliver events week-to-week across venues, towns and seasons. Without targeted action to rebuild grassroots volume and delivery capability, Ireland risks producing world-class talent with fewer stages, venues, crews, promoters and opportunities for progression.

Ireland has already shown, through Business Events 2030, that events can be treated as a strategic national capability with a roadmap, cross-agency co-ordination, regional benefit and measurable outcomes. We submit that supporting live music requires applying the same discipline to the broader events system that underpins it, particularly the enabling conditions, consistency and supports that determine whether events can proceed safely, frequently and sustainably.

The EIAI represents the professional events delivery ecosystem: promoters, producers, venues, festivals, technical suppliers and event safety practitioners. Live music does not happen in isolation; it depends on compliant planning, trained crews, sustainable venues and public spaces, proportionate reliable local authority processes and funding mechanisms that support delivery volume, not only prestige.

A principal constraint is fragmentation. Organisers and venues operate in a patchwork of local guidance and mixed standards, where what is compliant in one county may be treated differently in another. This increases cost, delays and disputes and reduces defensibility of decisions because the reference base is neither nationally normalised nor routinely updated. This hits grassroots and emerging activity hardest precisely where Ireland’s future live music talent is developed.

Local authorities sit at the centre of the enabling system and are essential to safe, frequent live music delivery, approving public space use, guiding safety planning, aligning agencies and managing community impacts. However, the specialist event delivery expertise required at scale sits largely in the professional sector, not within local authorities or Departments. This expertise must be built into a shared service model. Without consistent national supports, the system risks inconsistencies across counties, risk aversion driven by liability concerns, barriers for emerging promoters and small venues and lost opportunities to activate public and community spaces. The EIAI recommends that this capability be sponsored by the Department and delivered as a Local Government Management Agency, LGMA, hosted shared service, preserving local authority decision-making while providing national consistency.

The EIAI’s recommendations form a practical, delivery-led package to rebuild repeatable capacity and protect the live music pipeline: adopt a strategic national events plan delivered through county and city strategies to support year-round programming, community engagement and alignment across funding, permitting and standards; establish a national events support office focused on enabling local delivery and strengthening local authority capability; create an LGMA-hosted national events centre of excellence, sponsored by the Department and linked to a standing national event safety advisory function, with experienced practitioners and statutory representation, and mandate it to maintain and update the codes of practice on a formal, version-controlled national cycle; implement a live music pathways programme to support progression from education to first gigs to the grassroots circuits to festivals and touring; stabilise grassroots venue programming, expand safe capacity through public and community spaces, and support accessible noise mitigation initiatives, such as South Dublin County Council’s South Dublin Live programme.

Ireland already has a model for how national ambition translates into local, repeatable delivery through sport, where structured supports from grassroots upwards build pathways, capability and measurable outcomes. Live music requires the same enabling discipline applied to the events system that sustains it.

In closing, Ireland does not lack talent but it lacks a repeatable delivery system. A reliable events system is essential cultural infrastructure. It ensures artists have stages, audiences have access and every region can sustain a vibrant, year-round live music scene. The committee can drive a practical shift from fragmentation to capability by recommending a clear Government home for events delivery, modernising and maintaining the codes of practice and supporting the wider package that rebuilds pathways, stabilises grassroots programming and expands safe capacity. This is a delivery function, not a new approval layer, and it is the foundation on which a thriving live music industry depends.

I thank Ms O'Connor very much. I now call Mr. Finn to deliver his opening statement and presentation on behalf of IMRO.

I thank the Chairman, Deputies and Senators for the invitation to contribute to the discussion on Ireland’s music industry and, in particular, the development of the live music sector.

IMRO is Ireland’s music rights organisation. While the company is based in Ireland, its operations are international in scope. Representing 35,000 music creators, including songwriters, composers, and music publishers, IMRO licenses music for all forms of usage and ensures that creators receive appropriate and fair compensation for the use of their work. We also support the broader ecosystem, sponsoring emerging talent and delivering educational programmes, working with businesses so they can efficiently license the use of our members' music, and strengthening the cultural and economic contribution of music throughout the country.

During the summer of 2025, IMRO’s Ireland: Music Report 2025 was launched. The report was compiled by Core Research. The research involved a 3,000-person national omnibus survey, a survey of IMRO members and extensive stakeholder interviews from all sectors of the music industry. The result proved that music is deeply woven into our Irish identity and the message is clear: music is not simply entertainment but it is a driver of cultural and economic success. Here are some of the highlights. Some 71% of Irish adults say music is important in their daily lives. This compares to 49% who say sport is important in their daily lives. The corresponding figure for film is 68%. So, 71% of Irish adults say music is important. Public engagement with music events is strong and music consistently ranks as one of the most valued cultural experiences.

The economic impact is significant and this ranges from live venues and festivals to recording studios, music lessons and gigs. Music contributes close to €1 billion to the economy, directly employing over 13,400 people. The net income for those working in the music industry, however, is well below the national average at just over €15,000 per annum, and nearly 70% of music professionals need additional employment to sustain their livelihoods.

While music continues to thrive creatively, the live music industry is under increasing strain. Rising operational costs, changes in consumer behaviour and the pressures on small and medium-sized venues all contribute to a vulnerable environment for artists and promoters. At the same time, rapid developments in technology, none more so than AI, bring both opportunities but also significant risks to music creators. Without legislation, which ensures fairness and transparency, music creators are in a vulnerable position. Our research indicates if AI is not regulated fairly, the livelihoods of creators are at serious risk.

We are heartened by the publication of the regulation of artificial intelligence Bill last week, as well as the adaption by the EU JURI committee of the report compiled by Axel Voss MEP, which calls for full transparency and fair remuneration of rights holders for the use of copyright works when training AI models.

The IMRO report highlights the importance of music in our lives while also drawing attention to the financial and cultural challenges facing the industry. Public engagement is high and live events remain a vital cultural activity, but the reality for careers in music in not as positive. Greater investment is required to foster growth in the sector. The evidence from the IMRO report gives us an independent and objective perspective, informed by the public, IMRO members and industry stakeholders. As regards recommendations, audiences value live music highly and want easier access to local events. Creators cite unstable income and uncertainty about new technologies as their top concerns. Industry stakeholders consistently stated the music industry would only thrive with clear policy interventions, supportive infrastructure and fair and robust AI regulation. These insights form the basis for the recommendations we have shared with the committee today.

Based on the findings, our key asks are: to strengthen supports for music venues, especially smaller venues and those based in the regions, including initiatives such as the culture card; to ensure fair remuneration for creators across live, digital streaming services; introduce creator-centred AI legislation and regulation, safeguarding copyright and ensuring transparency in training data, copyright credits and remuneration; and finally, promote investment in Ireland’s music ecosystem, supporting talent development, performance opportunities, international reach and financial ability to maintain a livelihood as a music creator. These measures will protect creators, incentivise innovation and ensure the sustainability of Ireland’s live music industry.

Ireland’s music sector is rich, diverse and respected worldwide. Music is part of the wider cultural offering and has never been stronger or enjoyed as much popularity. However, it faces significant threats. It requires thoughtful, future-proofed policies and strong protections for music creators to ensure it not only survives but thrives. We thank the committee for its time, and we will now take questions.

I thank Mr. Finn. We will proceed with a question and answer session from members. There will be seven minutes and the first member is Senator Noonan.

I welcome our guests. I have a long, potted history in the music industry myself, having played up here in the 1990s in bands in the Baggot Inn, the New Inn, the Underground, Dave Fanning sessions-----

Those were the days.

-----and those were the days. I have two boxes of vinyl if anybody wants one. I cannot get rid of them. Thankfully, I probably managed a natural transition for a punk to playing folk music.

Having been involved in festivals in Kilkenny and in venues like Cleere's theatre and Set Theatre in Kilkenny city - the Roots Festival is upcoming - we have a good ecosystem in Kilkenny. We are talking about a live music ecosystem that has evolved over many decades and there is a great interaction between the venues, tech crews and musicians. A huge amount of knowledge, instruments, amplifiers or whatever are being shared. However, we see and recognise the significant threat to the industry. I went to the REM concert in the RDS in 1989 and the price of the ticket was €12.50 to see REM and The Go-Betweens, yet to buy their album on compact disc, CD, it was €12. It shows the disparity in the cost of going to an average concert now, which is about €100 or so.

The pricing is an important part of that. Young people are more inclined to take a punt on a gig or maybe even on an unknown act if the price is reasonable. My question is really about the supports that could be given by Government. The culture card is a brilliant idea and we should support that idea of being able to support young people to take a chance on going to a gig and going to see an unknown act. The witnesses might comment on that.

The key phrase the Senator used there was "music ecosystem". As a Tipperary woman, it is very rare I would have anything positive to say about Kilkenny but I have to give it to them here. There were so many structures set up in Kilkenny to allow music to thrive. There is an abundance of accommodation and venues, and there are also visitors coming into Kilkenny who want to attend cultural events. That is really important for young people, to create the habit for them to get exposure to cultural events and to start them off when they are young having attendance at music events being the norm.

The culture card is a great idea and I pay tribute to Deputy Cleere for taking this initiative and running with it. There is a huge element of us and them in young people when they look at culture and music. They think, "Yes, culture is great but it is not for me." To be able to give them the opportunity to attend cultural events on their doorstep when they do not have to worry about travel costs or accommodation costs, with the culture card, would be fantastic. It opens up the whole cultural musical area to people who might not have had that exposure previously.

On that wider issue of young people being brought in, Music Generation has been fantastic and continues to bring on new musicians. However, the lack of alcohol-free venues is a real challenge around the country. The opportunity for young bands to play to their peers is also something we should give active encouragement to.

The other huge disadvantage for younger bands and musicians or aspiring musicians is practice spaces. There are very few garages in houses left that people can go in and plug in their electric guitars to practice to become the next U2 or Fontaines DC. Having spaces like that where bands can practice and to have cultural spaces where there can be a cross-pollination between musicians, music creators and graphic artists who can design their album or EP cover is also needed to ensure the next generation is able to come through to keep the conveyor belt of musicians in Ireland going.

There is a set range of venues across the country of capacity between 150, 200 and 300. I notice with bands touring, there are mixed fortunes in terms of attendances. Do the witnesses see the need for greater local authority support in respect of arts grants or central government support to try to keep these live venues going?

We have discussed town centres first, and that should include our night-time economy. Our live music venues are a critical part of that in every small town in Ireland. Kilkenny has thrived because there is a can-do attitude among all those who are there, but that does not exist everywhere.

I will start with Kilkenny. The people of Kilkenny are very lucky; that is certainly not the case all over the country. The reality of the situation is all the costs have gone up since Covid, including for suppliers and crew. The lack of crew and expertise within the industry is a real problem. The Senator also mentioned indoor venues quite a lot but we have to face the reality that from a live music perspective, a huge proportion of events take place in outdoor spaces.

We have included in our presentation activating local authority-managed public spaces. Indoor and outdoor is a massive step for people to go forward in making sure they can plan on a consistent basis. Events can throw a lot of things at you when you are trying to plan them, so consistency insofar as planning budgets and things like that are very helpful for us.

Senator Noonan mentioned high ticket prices and I can guarantee him that they are not coming from our membership because we are struggling to break even. Our problem is that the customer has a perceived value on a ticket and we are not matching this with their budgets because the costs are so high.

It is not a one-size-fits-all solution, unfortunately. During Covid we had the live performance support scheme, which was hugely appreciated and very helpful. We now have South Dublin County Council's live music programme, which is building on that and is a very good example of how local authorities can provide support. We have funding that comes through Tourism Ireland and the Arts Council, which is also extremely beneficial. It is important to consider that this is not something that can be driven by an arts or tourism agenda. We need to see that events, in particular live music, are all about community building and engagement. It really is about grassroots and rebuilding from the ground up. We have seen a huge drop-off in independent music festivals, which are the natural transition for those artists when they come out of the night-time venues. This is a symptom of what we have been through in recent years. It is these spaces that we want to ensure are available to young promoters and that these young promoters come on board.

I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee. At the risk of breaking into song and declaring that music is my first love, I simply cannot imagine a life without music. Many people feel exactly the same. My grandmother was a music teacher. I had the first heavy metal radio show in Ireland. As Ms Ní Choisdealbha knows, I used to sit until the wee small hours filling out the IMRO forms, as we used to have to do. Both my children are musicians but, of course, they have to have fall-back professions now. As we all know, people cannot live on it.

We have the great idea of the culture card. The announcement yesterday of the extension of the basic income for the arts scheme is a huge bonus. In particular, the grass roots music venue funding has been a great bonus. In my home town of Drogheda, McHugh's has absolutely blossomed through this type of funding. We are also very lucky that we were one of the towns that got a night-time economy adviser, and Mr. Mark Davis has been a great help to me in recent days, telling me how IMRO can assist with live music venues. He says that despite IMRO collecting music licence fees from Drogheda-based venues, he thinks the awareness of IMRO and its benefits to grassroots musicians who join and use its services seems to be incredibly low. How does IMRO measure the effectiveness of its outreach to grassroots acts outside of Dublin and in all of the towns and cities, particularly in poorer communities?

It is really important that we be active outside of Dublin, which we are. We are developing our communications with our grassroots musicians so they are aware that, as creators, they are entitled to join IMRO so they can collect their fair remuneration when their music is publicly performed. We absolutely acknowledge that we can never do enough communications and marketing. We will definitely take this on board in relation to furthering our communications in the regions as well.

I mentioned the grassroots music venue scheme. Is there anything IMRO can do to help promote, support or add to this initiative?

We can promote this to all of our membership. We have more than 30,000 members. We have members in every parish in Ireland and we can reach them directly. New venues, and any venue receiving grant aid for developing or opening up as a new venue, are very important. One part of the research that came out clearly is that people want local music. On the point made earlier about the price of tickets, I would just say that very few tickets for local artists reach those heights. People can get tickets for music event from €25, €30 or €40 up to €50. This is very good value for a full night-time's entertainment of live music, so long as it is local. It is very important that we make it as local as we possibly can. If there are supports or capital funds available to develop these venues, we would absolutely support that.

One of the terms and conditions for the grassroots initiative is that the venue applying has an up-to-date IMRO licence. This opens the door for us to make sure that the royalties from the performances flow back to the up-and-coming artists who are being given an opportunity to perform in these venues under the scheme. Royalties and the admin side are not the sexiest part of the business but if the performers were not aware of the royalties prior to this, then getting involved in such a scheme when it is one of the key terms and conditions would cause them to investigate it a little bit further. The fact of knowing there was a royalty payment coming to them on the back of a performance would definitely push them in our direction.

Absolutely. I will let my Dublin colleagues speak for the cities but I will still look towards the regions and certainly the more disadvantaged areas. Has IMRO ever considered a reduction in tariffs for venues situated in rural communities or the more disadvantaged communities?

We have an obligation to treat all licensees the same. We have significant competition law obligations in relation to treating every single licensee fairly. The tariff we publish has to go through the Intellectual Property Office and be vetted. It has to be available to all similar licensees. There is not an opportunity to vary the tariff. We sponsor certain things in certain areas of the country where we think there may not be a commercial reason for putting on events in certain venues. We support music in this regard but we cannot do it on the licensing front.

We have to look at wider support for live music venues and locations. Ms O'Connor mentioned in her opening statement that it was almost about legacy and repeat performance. Wexford Festival Opera is a fantastic annual event and it is almost self-sufficient at this stage. The likes of Fleadh Cheoil na hÉireann are amazing. When it was held in Drogheda in 2018 and 2019 it was an incredible activity for the entire region and country. That said, there is still more than €1 million owed on the back of it. It is not easy to repeat these events in many areas and we simply do not have the accommodation any more. How can we support the locations so they can be repeat venues?

In answer to the final question, our suggestion is to communicate via the local authorities. They are one of the largest producers of events in the country. This is one of our core mechanisms for receiving information. When people are trying to organise events taking place, the local authorities are generally the ones providing guidance and direction, so maybe there could be an integration there.

With regard to the supports that can be put in place, we have foundational issues at play. When we talk about an event that moves site, such as the National Ploughing Championships, which, although sporting, are still an event, the consistency of the application of the codes of practice, the guidelines and the rules and regulations varies. It is not surprising to me to hear that an event can go ahead and be at such a deficit in one year when it had possibly broken even or made a profit the year before. It is simply that the rules change depending on where things are. It is one of the core reasons we have put forward the idea that we need a national events centre of excellence hosted by the LGMA to support local authorities. There is a certain level of event expertise that needs to be brought from industry into local authorities to explain the nuances of all of these challenges, as they do vary. If we do not come at it from a national perspective to locally enable this activity on a consistent and reliable basis, it is too risky for the events and the organisers involved to pursue various activities that would support live music.

As Cathaoirleach of the Committee on Artificial Intelligence, I have been liaising with the Cathaoirleach here because one of the issues we will be exploring quite soon is AI and the creative industries. The print media came before the AI committee yesterday and raised many of the same issues. I am particularly glad to see reference to an arts capital scheme, which was a very strong recommendation of this committee in the last Oireachtas and found its way into the programme for Government. I am a strong advocate for the culture card. It is critical that we look particularly at ways to attract young audiences. I am quite keen to pursue the culture card idea. It works very well in other places.

We have seen it in France, Germany, Italy and Spain. In Spain, where it is up to €500, it is quite interesting. It does not only cover tickets to concerts. It also helps if you want to purchase a musical instrument. In terms of engaging people in music as well, it is critical.

I want to raise the issue around live music at festivals and supports. Local authorities are crucial. I represent the Wicklow-Wexford constituency. I had been used to dealing with Wexford County Council and I involved with the Market House Festival in Gorey. There has been huge support from local authorities to live music. I hope that is reflected. I will be blunt. I then started dealing with Wicklow County Council. That is not the same and I called it out. It even charges voluntary festivals for road-closure licences. I am asking that we start to name the local authorities or identify this inconsistency, because I hear it from other parts of the country as well. Obviously, Ms O'Connor instanced south Dublin as a good example. What should local authorities be doing to support live music? Are there other good case studies around the country?

We do not need to reinvent the wheel. There are countless incredible examples of how successful programmes have been implemented across a variety of local authorities but, as I said, it is not consistent. The Deputy's experience with Wexford County Council may be completely different from mine with the next event that comes in, depending on the local agenda, the local authority, the different statutory agencies that are involved or the different activity, as the Deputy mentioned.

From our perspective, the best use of resources is to start at a national level with our standard guidance, standard practice and what we want to achieve over the next few years, and headline those goals for local authorities to activate, especially on the ground. We need to shift the whole system so that we are working consistently, as I say repetitively, because it is not our experience on the ground. If we have a national agenda and strategy that is put in place and comes down through the Local Government Management Agency, LGMA, we support the local authorities with these activities and we bear in mind as well that there can be a lack of expertise within the local authorities. In some cases, I find there is a staff officer who has been tasked with making sure an event is delivered and it is their first time on the job. It is the most ridiculous situation when you consider road closures and all the safety elements that come along with it.

There is no easy fix here. I cannot overstate this. We have to start at the foundations of how do we do business within events, how local authorities produce these events and then how they interact with the external parties that are trying to deliver them to make sure it is consistent, safe and reliable, and that we can budget properly and deliver a really enjoyable experience on the ground so that over time, as we are fixing the problems, the events themselves then grow and we have a thriving industry at the end of it.

One other issue which is crucial is obviously around venues. I am conscious Senator Noonan raised it as well. We have seen within the programme for Government a commitment for the development of an arts capital scheme along the same lines as the sports capital scheme. It will start off small, but I certainly expect it to scale because I agree, in terms of people's engagement with music, art, drama and culture, it is as significant as sport but we have not invested to the same extent. How would Ms O'Connor like to see that arts capital scheme, which is currently being designed by the Department, operate? Are there any key elements that Ms O'Connor would focus on?

Engagement with the events industry would be a great start. More often than not, we are essentially handed venues to use. A venue may have been developed for an arts reason or purpose and then we find that when we try and put in, say, that local showcase of talent, it functionally does not work for us. We see this consistently, in particular with outdoor venues. There should be engagement with industry to make sure that the venues are fit for purpose, and then making sure that the funding and support is not targeted at an arts, culture or tourism initiative. Events span all of that. It is a case of taking a step back, looking at what we are trying to achieve, what are the key performance indicators, KPIs, and whether we are looking for community engagement or trying to enrich culture, considering those goals and then looking at whether the venues themselves would be appropriate.

I thank Ms O'Connor. I recommend that the committee write to the Minister on foot of those issues.

I took a note of that. That is a very good point.

And also on the culture card. We will write to the Minister in support of the culture card, but how might Mr. Finn and Ms Ní Choisdealbha see that operating in practice?

When people turn 18, they would get a culture card. That is a tax-free amount of money pre-loaded on a card that the individual then can spend on cultural music events. It would expose people of that age. Even if they have been at musical or cultural events through the educational system, it tends to or can fall away after that period. It will keep them in that cultural, music and creative environment. It would be really good value for the Exchequer as well. I suspect that it should be probably more than €100, if we are going to roll it out. I think it is €500 initially. I know I am looking for more before I get it but-----

I made a recommendation we start it at €200. I got costings from the State. The Department of Finance said it would cost up to €83 million in the first year. This is typical of the Department of Finance. It would be to allow people exposure to all sorts of cultural events, whether it is punk, heavy metal, ballet, jazz or whatever cultural experience people want to have, or, indeed, opera-----

Or to try ones they might not otherwise use their own money on. It would allow people to experiment. It is a really good idea.

It is critical.

I welcome the students who have arrived into the Gallery with Deputy O'Reilly. I call Deputy Joanna Byrne.

Apologies for being late and if I raise something that has already been covered. It is just one of those days.

I would like to start with a bit of a discussion on the night-time economy advisers. Drogheda, my home town, has got a great guy, Mark Davies, who was appointed as part of a pilot scheme by Louth County Council, I believe, to boost, diversify and secure the town's after-hours scene. Mr. Davies works proactively with the Love Drogheda business improvement district, BID, scheme to try to promote a safer, more vibrant nightlife, including initiatives such as safety, a data-sharing scheme and the purple flag chart. What are Ms O'Connor's opinions on that? What more can be done with that role to perhaps promote live music in particular? There seems to be a lot of focus on the safety of the nightlife scene but not necessarily much focus on the promotion of live music in venues throughout the areas that they are in.

From our perspective, it has been quite successful so far, particularly on the noise mitigation side of things. The funding for that is obviously enabling venues to operate later into the night without disturbing the local community, which is key. One core suggestion would be in how they engage with other activity in the area. We are not reinventing the wheel here. There are many people and promoters out there trying to put on events. When they are considering a programme of activity, I would strongly encourage engagement with local authorities and a lot of work being put into identifying the local smaller promoters and making sure that their activity is included. I suppose it is taking advantage of the profile of the night-time economy to not waste the resources that are available in those areas.

That is an interesting point. Is the purple flag initiative helpful or does that tie into it in any way, shape or form from the perspective of the promotion of live music?

Yes, of course. It is all part of the same thing. We have a huge amount of work to do in the night-time economy side of things. As we all know, we lost a huge amount of nightclubs and we are really flagging on that side of the industry. Every element of it is helpful but there is a long road to go on it.

I love live music. I hate going out to pubs unless there is live music in the pub. I come from a town that - my colleague might have mentioned this already - has a strong legacy of being one of the most vibrant hotspots, probably a little bit before my time but, certainly, as I came into my teenage years, perhaps before I should have been participating in such activity. It was known as a town that was thriving. It had great pubs, great live bands and great clubs and it was a thriving spot. It has died a death in recent years.

If anyone had asked me two or three years ago if Drogheda's live music scene is good and thriving, I would have said "No". I am in a relationship with a man from Navan in County Meath, which is another large town, and since I met Mattie and started going out in Navan, I would say Drogheda is buzzing compared to Navan. There is a real disparity between Drogheda and Navan, and it makes Drogheda look like how it would have been described 20 years ago. Some areas are doing really well. Drogheda has picked itself back up. There has been some great investment in the pub scene since the fleadh cheoil came to us two years in a row, a few years ago. You can get live music in Drogheda up to five nights a week. The only nights you cannot are Tuesday and Wednesday nights. It is great to see that. It is a real incentive for people who are not big drinkers to get back into the pub scene at a time when the industry is perhaps faltering.

When you look at Navan, you can only get live music in Navan in one or two pubs on a Sunday afternoon. You do not get it on a Friday night or Saturday night, let alone a Monday night or Thursday night. I am not necessarily putting the blame on anybody sitting in front of me, but does anybody keep track of areas that are doing really well with live music and, more importantly, areas that are not? Is there a follow-up system of engagement with local authorities for perhaps the recommendations of night-time advisers or anything that can be done to put the musical and cultural heart back into areas like Navan in particular, which I do not represent, but areas like it that are really struggling with the live music scene?

I have no interest in sitting in a pub unless there is music. That is being straight with the witnesses. I would rather put on my pyjamas and put the telly on than go out and sit in a pub without music. This is a real eye-opener for me that there are areas where the live music scene just does not exist at all. In fact, it has really opened my eyes to how well Drogheda is doing, whereas I would have said it was not doing quite so well until I saw the other side of it.

The night-time economy advisers have been absolutely amazing. We had Mark Davies on one of our IMRO podcasts when he took up the job.

Yes, that is right. I heard that. He is brilliant.

His energy, ideas and enthusiasm are absolutely fantastic. Deputy Byrne is probably reaping the benefits of that now. We need to encourage people to go out because, as the Deputy said, it is so easy to put on your pyjamas and sit in front of the television but if everybody does that, you have no audience. Live music is like a three-pillar stool, in that you need performers, an audience and a venue. If one of those is gone, the stool does not stand. If everybody sits at home watching the television, then no venue is going to put on an event and no performer is going to get up and perform. The town will then die a death.

I do not mean to cut across Ms Ní Choisdealbha but, interestingly, the pubs in Navan are really busy. There are great pubs and they are all full every night at the weekend but there is just no bloody music in them. I cannot understand that, which is perhaps because I come from a town that has a real strong grá for live music in pubs. I see another town where pubs are thriving and doing really well but there is no live music in them. There is something amiss there. I am just wondering if there is management of that in Navan.

There is. The worrying part about Navan is where does a performer, whether a band or a solo singer, who wants a space to perform go? There has to be some bit of an incentive there to allow or encourage the pubs or venues - it is not all about pubs - to put on music. I suppose the more events that are on and the more publicity that they are given, then the more people will be pulled out to attend them. I was going to say it is a vicious circle but it is the opposite. It is an upward cycle.

We would be in a position to help any of the Departments that are working on this because we have overall statistics on where live music is licensed. We could, therefore, give an overview of that on an anonymised basis.

We would like to get that as a committee.

Yes. We can ask that it be provided. It would be anonymised but it would highlight areas or towns in the country that are really successful and the ones that are not. We would have a heat map, as it were, of live music around the country.

That would be perfect.

We can produce that.

We would appreciate that.

It would be anonymised.

I thank all the witnesses for being here today. It has been a really stimulating session so far. I also thank the witnesses for the work they do. As we have discussed, music is precious to all of us. I am no different from anybody else.

The first area that I want to talk about is dance music. I love all types of music. I go more frequently nowadays to the National Concert Hall than to the festival fields that I used to hang out in.

We were all in them.

In the last couple of years, I have seen some amazing dance acts in the concert hall – Nils Frahm and recently a German fellow. I am drawing a blank on his name. That was an amazing one because everyone was up on their feet dancing for the entire thing. I really need to understand if dance music is treated differently from a licensing point of view and a rights point of view. Culturally, a lot of people still do not see dance music as live music. Obviously we are discussing live music today. Is that the case? Do the witnesses come across difficulties with licensing issues at the events level or on the rights level?

No, on the rights side of things, dance and music creators join IMRO. We would license and collect from the venues and pay according to the performances in those venues. It is absolutely treated similarly to any other genre of music. Whether it is as well known in that sector, that they can and do is another thing.

A lot of people still think the DJs come along and put on a track, whereas there is a lot more creativity happening in that moment. A lot more performing musicians who use instruments are now relying on the technology and production techniques that DJs provide as a foundation. For me, there is a lot more blending now, but I do not know whether we recognise that culturally. That is good to hear anyway.

No, we do recognise it.

That is good to hear anyway from a rights perspective. Could Elaine respond from a licensing perspective?

I want to put it sensitively. From a risk-assessment perspective, the demographic that is perceived to attend a dance event is one of the biggest challenges we have with it. While there is not much evidence for it, unfortunately various statutory agencies would see them as higher level risk events. If I came along and said I was going to put on a country music festival for 10,000 people, I would be told that sounds lovely, but if I attend the same meeting and say I am going to put on a techno dance music festival, I will be paying for additional gardaí, emergency services and across the board because the risk is perceived to be so much higher.

Did Ms O'Connor say that is unfairly the case?

Accidents happen. People use drugs at events and things like that. It is not synonymous with dance events but the immediate reaction is "Oh". It is not that they do not go ahead; it is just more challenging for the promoters and organisers who are trying to put them on. There needs to be a better way of risk-assessing events, based on evidence and past experience. This goes back to the national learning that we need to do. With regard to inconsistency, again, if I take that 10,000-person event and put it on in Fairyhouse, which has a bit of experience with that, I would not be expecting a risk-averse reaction, but if I take that then and bring it to a different area of the country where they are not used to it, it will not be as welcomed.

One of the actions Ms O'Connor spoke about, which I am interested in, is the codes of practice. Can she talk a little bit more about that?

I could speak to this all day. They are 30 years old this year and extremely outdated. We have gone through at least two, if not three, rounds of reviews for good practice and it has not happened properly for us. What it means is that the baseline guidance that we are receiving is not consistent. They are perceived differently by different stakeholders and implemented differently by different local authorities. The result of that is actually unsafe or bad practice. There are elements in it which leave ambiguity available to local authorities, statutory agencies and the organisers themselves. In some cases, adhering to the codes of practice is now bad practice. We have really good examples. We put them forward several times in different submissions to different committees with regard to the likes of The Purple Guide in the UK, which is essentially a dynamic code of practice that is updated regularly in direct response to an ever-changing environment. At a base level, even just with the simplest of things, such as public notification, they point to newspaper ads. I do not read newspapers. I have to go looking for the notification myself when I have one out there. It is not a big job. It is really straightforward. We put in the same submission we did in 2014.

Ms O'Connor's request is of the Department to update those codes of practice.

Yes. That is key for our industry because it is, as I said, leading to unsafe practices across the board.

That is exactly the case. Speaking to the other issue, that is exactly the kind of thing that can help to break through some of that nonsense.

None of this is rocket science. We are an unhoused industry. We do not belong to any Department. No one takes responsibility for us. We have all the right mechanisms to fix the problems that we have. It is super straightforward. We just need advocacy and-----

Ownership.

-----support and ownership.

That is fascinating. In the time I have left I want to talk about venues. We have heard about the capital investment that is required. It was sad to see The Complex shut down recently. I am curious about the witnesses' experience. Besides capital investment, what other kinds of creative solutions are they seeing? What about the use of vacant buildings? Are there any initiatives they are seeing around community wealth building or co-operative models for venues? Is there anything the witnesses can tell us? Are there incentives for planning around cultural objectives for spaces?

From our point of view, that is a long-term planning aim. I would love to see music, culture and development included in town and county plans. It would be similar to the situation that applied a few years ago whereby if you were building an apartment block or office block, you had to include space for a crèche at the bottom. There is no reason if you were building such a building or putting things together you could not include a performance space or space for an art gallery or something like that. That would open up the culture to anybody who is going past. It is building a community from the bottom up. It is giving people an opportunity to do things that they might not have thought was open to them previously. There must be an element of joined-up thinking. Music, arts and culture cross so many different Departments that they fall between the stools. There has to be cross-departmental consideration of that. If music and culture are integrated into all the various plans that are coming out, it will be the rising tide that lifts all boats.

Did Ms O'Connor want to add anything?

One of the struggles we have is risk aversion, driven by liability. Again, it is not rocket science. There is not a venue type that I have not been in with an event. If people can go into a space, it can be used. That is the starting point. After that, it is about education. It is back to the national centre of excellence. We need to give guidance and provide security for the local authorities and statutory agencies that are making the decisions to assure them they are making the right decision. We must be learning. We should not be going back into the same circuit again in the same venue. If we have created a safe plan, there is no reason that cannot be the basis for the next usage and further development.

That is exactly right. By the way, Christian Löffler was the other name I was trying to remember.

I am not familiar with his work. It would not be my genre.

The witnesses are very welcome and I thank them for coming. I will focus on one theme in my limited time, which is the culture card that was mentioned earlier. For me, the witnesses are pushing an open door. The introduction of a culture card would be transformative for Ireland and our younger people, in particular. It would pen up our cultural landscape to a new generation. There are various different theories about what it would look like. We know it is running successfully in other countries, such as France, Spain, Germany and Iceland. From an Irish perspective, we need to step up to the plate and get this card out as soon as possible.

The potential financial implications were mentioned. For me, it is going to be cost neutral. I will give an example. I am from Kilkenny, which is without a shadow of a doubt the festival capital of Ireland. We know that. There are so many fantastic venues, including the Watergate Theatre, Cleere's, the Set Theatre and Abbey Lane in Mick Doyle's pub in Graiguenamanagh. There are fantastic venues right across the city and county. The idea is that an individual, once he or she turns 18, would have access to a culture card. Perhaps young people in Dublin want to see a gig in Kilkenny. They have to get into their cars and drive down. They probably go for a meal and a few pints. The circular economy is benefiting incredibly and the net cost to the Irish economy is zero. We know the music industry is worth €1 billion to Ireland. We know that, give or take, 13,500 people are employed in the sector. However, the circular economy and the impact of attending these live events would be absolutely transformative for those businesses. Senator Noonan mentioned the figures earlier. When you break it down and get into it, the figures are very small.

I am totally open on the financial side. The card could be worth €100 or €500. The more the better. This card has to happen as soon as possible. I will talk in a moment about the engagement the witnesses have had with the Department so far because this needs to be fast-tracked as a matter of urgency.

Before I come to the witnesses, the last point I want to make is that the people who would benefit the most from the introduction of this card next year would be the people who were most impacted by Covid-19. When I was a young lad growing up, we had chats when we were going to discos and all those bits and pieces. The generation that are coming through were social distancing five years ago. That led to a huge explosion in social media and online gaming and all those types of activity that were not around 20 years ago. A vacuum has been created in the live music industry. I want young people to be given the opportunity to attend live events. If they are given that opportunity, they might go to something they would not otherwise. I, for example, have never been to a ballet. I have four daughters so I might end up going at some stage but I have never been to a ballet. If there was a culture card there, it could be something I could experience and I might end up enjoying it. This is about giving people the opportunity to go down a route and go to the Bord Gáis Energy Theatre, or a small play put on by the Gowran Pantomime Society, which will be putting on Cinderella next week, or a gig in Graiguenamanagh or in the Set Theatre. Giving our young people access to that is hugely important.

I will make two points. Deputy Joanna Byrne made a point about looking for data. If you had a culture card and there was a QR code or barcode on it that was scanned every time it was used, the amount of data you would have on what people are choosing to attend and areas with the greatest take-up would be huge to be able to feed back into the system.

We have a huge opportunity with the EU Presidency coming to Ireland to run a pilot project for a culture card. One of the difficulties we have is trying to make the EU relevant to people in Ireland. If we could say to all 18-year-olds that for the next six months they will have a culture card that will get them into every cultural event that is happening in their area for free, as part of Ireland's Presidency of the EU, the connection between Europe and the young people would be considerable. It would give us great scope to pilot such a scheme.

It would be quite easy to bring in. Eighteen years ago, approximately 75,000 people were born in Ireland. At €100 a pop, that would mean a cost of €7.5 million. We would bring in all the administrative stuff. It is a small cost considering the impact and benefit we would get.

It is a small cost. If we widen the pool, those 75,000 people have parents, siblings, grandparents, neighbours, school friends and teachers. A large amount of people would then know what cultural events they are attending and what is happening. The culture would be opened up to everybody. That pool of people is important.

The key thing is that the culture is opened up and there is accessibility to live music, sport or whatever else. My parents instilled in me a love of sport and education. I love music as well but my parents instilled those loves in me. If our children get access to live music, it will instill in certain people - and not everybody, because everybody is different - a love of theatre, live entertainment, performance and comedy. The key thing is to give people the access and the opportunity.

I would go a step further although I know it is about baby steps. We could get the introduction of the card for the 18-year-olds but I am working behind the scenes on the following. When people come to retire at 66 years of age, they should be given a culture card as part of the transition into retirement. They have time on their hands. I will give an example. I got the train up from Kilkenny two weeks ago and met a woman I used to work with in Kilkenny County Council. She retired a year and a half ago. She and her husband got the train up to Dublin and the Luas into town. They were going to the Bord Gáis Theatre to watch a show that afternoon. It was Miss Saigon or something like that. They were going to a show in the afternoon and then getting the train back to Kilkenny. For them, it was great because they were getting free travel up to Dublin, seeing the show and coming back. That is just one example where people have the time to support these events. If the culture card were available to people once they retire, it would breathe new life into, and bring more energy and investment to, the live sector.

Senator Noonan mentioned he was a musician years ago and has a few CDs out there. No musician wants to play to an empty audience. You want to play for people and get energy from the crowd.

We absolutely need to encourage our younger people. I commend IMRO on its enthusiasm, drive and intensity in driving that issue because it is a really simple one to introduce. For me, it is pushing an open door in terms of that. That should be phase 1. Phase 2 should be for those aged 66 and over because everybody should be given the opportunity to access live music and live culture. We are proud of our heritage, history and culture in this country. We should be giving more opportunities to all our citizens to explore and enjoy it and invest back into our cultural, music sector. It is a hugely important part of culture in Ireland.

I have loads of questions and comments but I will try to keep them as brief as possible. Venues, in some ways, are one of the keys. I find it odd there is not a national standard. I know there is not because I have emailed the venues and you can see it for yourself. I am also surprised there has been no mention of the Arts Council in all the commentary thus far on what it is doing and what its role is. Ms O'Connor was quite blunt, in some ways, when she said the EIAI is sitting between two Departments.

It is several Departments and several funding agencies.

True.

The Deputy mentioned the Arts Council. It has an Arts Council agenda. If our activity does not suit that agenda, the support is not there for us. Events are so much more. We just mentioned a return on investment, for example, for the culture card. We generate a ratio of €1:€10 or €1:€12.50 in local economic impact for events. For years, we have been taking this really narrow view of what we want to get out of this event activity. If that is putting an artist on a stage, great, but it is not an artist on a stage in the context of a festival that may not necessarily be celebrating that specific artist, which might not generate the necessary number of bed nights for Fáilte Ireland. That is where we have a massive problem. Some of the most successful events span all of this activity and are not funded by the Arts Council, Tourism Ireland, Fáilte Ireland or any other agency because they are not ticking those specific boxes. If the Department acknowledges events for what they are and it filters from that down to these agencies, what we will see is that the industry can respond properly and tie into the funding mechanisms that are there.

I understand Ms O'Connor's frustration. It is something we will raise at some stage with the Arts Council, if it is before us again on something other than computers and things like that. There is a need for the Arts Council to have a role in this at the end of the day because it should be involved in funding all forms of art. We have had that row.

I am not in disagreement with the points that were made. One that stood out for me was the fragmentation of these standards. There is a need to have one set of standards so that you, somebody coming in from abroad or somebody who has an idea in a rural town, knows what the checklist is, that this is what they need to do and that this is the venue or site where they want the event, and they know what the checklists are and what is required. It is also that the local council and An Garda Síochána know it and everybody is singing from the same hymn sheet. That should be one of the key demands, if we are setting demands or recommendations from this committee.

I have been to quite a lot of arts events, music events in particular, in the last two weeks, at one of which the artist turned up and left because the crowd was not big enough. If you walk into a hall where the owners of the hall have not bothered their arse advertising it, it can be soul-destroying for a performer. I could understand it of them, and that is the nature of it in some ways, but there are other venues that are packed to the rafters. It is just the different standards. I presume there are also different standards of approach to the artists themselves and how they get paid and remunerated. At the end of the day, they are the vital part and we should ensure that artists are paid properly. From IMRO's point of view, what is the experience?

It is fair to say that traditionally, the Arts Council did not concentrate on commercial music, as such. It concentrated just on unviable music it supported to ensure it took place. There is a role for that remit to be broadened because commercial or what is termed "popular music" often was excluded from Arts Council consideration. There is room to include that in its next strategy so that all forms of music are included and there is more transparency about how its grants and subsidies are awarded. The history of who is getting various grants and awards from the Arts Council would be good. I know it is looking at trying to improve that, which is good. Broadening the remit to include so-called commercial music, which is often just on the cusp of viability, for which it has not been available to entities to go to the Arts Council for support, would be useful going forward.

It is true that just because you are considered to be popular music or commercial, that does not necessarily transfer to your bottom line. One of the statistics that amazed me from the research we did was the high level of musicians and music creators who needed a second job. We are not talking about a second job where somebody works as a waitress for a couple of hours to make sure they are free for their gig in the evening. These are people who are working in tech and pharma, as teachers and in jobs that are high paid. If something is going to go there, then music will be the one that is going to go. If we keep going down that route where we are expecting musicians and music creators to keep giving of their talents for very little return, then we will not have any left. It is now, when we know what the problem is, that we have a chance to fix it, solve it and make sure we have a strong music ecosystem into the future. There is no point in looking ten years down the road and saying we have no musicians or music creators left and we should have done something about it. We now have this information and are in a position to be able to make changes to that. We should grasp it.

I have brothers who are musicians in Ireland. They can attest to the fact, as can probably everybody else who has been in the music industry, that you cannot make a living in Ireland alone. We are a small nation. We are growing and we love the arts and everything else, but we are not big enough to sustain the musicians of calibre we have here, or the up-and-coming ones at the same time. That is a difficulty. That is why a lot of people have faith in the basic income for the arts.

I have a question about venues; I have a load of questions, as I said. Is there a database of venues? The biggest cost is insurance. There are different types and shapes and sizes of venues, including old, new and some that are basically very bockety and should not be a venue, but since there is nothing else in the town or village people have to use it. What is the experience with insurance companies for venues? Is it difficult to get insurance?

From our perspective, it depends from venue to venue because, again, it is based on the capacity of the venue, what the activity is, operating areas, etc. It also then goes back to local authorities and statutory agencies, depending on what their requirements are. If there are problems in relation to fire safety, for example, that will drive costs for the venue to open. That then carries on as a risk, potentially, into the insurance. We are not getting massive reports of problems necessarily with insurance. In fact, post Covid, insurance has been one of the more stable costs for events in general. It is important we acknowledge that.

To the previous point on the culture card, there is an opportunity there with regard to using the culture card to identify activity that is attracting audiences, what type of activity it is, rewarding that activity, and incentivising the organisers to promote and produce activity that the Government wants to drive and support. Obviously, in years to come, we will then have the data to be able to make data-driven decisions on how the likes of the culture card or funding in general is operating. That might solve the problem of the Arts Council being solely responsible for live music when that should not necessarily be the case and vice versa for tourism.

There may be a unique opportunity here to use the culture card as our carrot for data where we would be able to then make informed decisions.

I have a few questions. I thank the witnesses for coming in.

This is an intriguing topic. I launched IMRO's report late last year. The music industry and its viability and creative capacity have changed in the past ten years because of the disintermediation of musicians through the Internet, in particular streaming, and the whole shebang. The dependency on live events is critical now. It has gone full circle. How we as a country ensure that we can deliver on that is critical.

I was very taken by what Ms Ní Choisdealbha said in relation to providing a future ecosystem. I come from a little village called Portroe. Garrykennedy is part of it. It is renowned for traditional music. It is where Gerry "Banjo" O'Connor comes from. He is my neighbour. He is the greatest banjo player of all time. I had to say that. He is established and has played a lot with different people. Up the road, we have Dàwna, a musician from Nenagh who is fighting to try to get gigs. On one occasion, he very publicly said that he had to pull the gig because there were not enough tickets sold. There are people starting off. He is trying to get going in life. He is a brilliant musician. He released our song when we won the all-Ireland. Does Ms Ní Choisdealbha remember that a few months ago?

I am sorry, but I missed that.

That is the balance. I look at those who have continued, broken down the barriers and fought and fought. I think of Garry McCarthy, known as GMC. He has a creative studio for rap music down in Knocknaheeny in Cork. He has had 2,500 workshops. He is incredible. I have known him for many years. I have actually known him since he was a child. The workshops are not for profit. They are purely based on his passion and fighting, fighting and fighting. He had very little funding. He eventually got some funding. How do we ensure into the future that the ecosystem can produce Gerry O'Connors, can support Dàwnas and can ensure that someone like GMC can aspire to do what he is doing in other parts of the country?

On the issue of venues, there have been some very good points coming out of this committee meeting. As I speak last, I tend to be able to summarise rather than ask all of the questions. We need the audit of venues. The witnesses writing to us and us writing to the Minister prior to the decision on capital funding on venues is a very good idea that has come out of this already. This is to say, as Ms O'Connor said, that we need to make sure that we are able to meet the requirements of music, including different types of music.

The heat map of where live performances are going on - it should not be too anonymised because we need to see the information at a pretty granular level - is also very important. I have no doubt from the contributions here that there are areas.

I wish to link in something. Music takes place in different venues where alcoholic and non-alcoholic drinks are served, etc. In many small towns, it generally is bars because there are no other locations. However, we have a massive tangible issue with that, namely, there is not the transport capacity to bring people in and out of towns any more. It is over. It is an actual failure in Irish transport at the moment. It is not only in rural areas, but in urban areas. That is a tangible cross-departmental issue.

Regarding local authorities, there is definitely a need for us as a committee to look at auditing local authorities' performance in relation to this area. We have a fantastic lady in Nenagh called Rosemary Joyce. She is incredible at bringing forward ideas at the Nenagh Arts Centre. The arts director and all the team there are incredible. We need to audit councils. Deputy Malcolm Byrne gave a very good example of Wicklow and Wexford. I do not know about it, but I take his word. Who has a night-time economy officer and who does not, and where is it working and where is it not?

If we did the three things that I just said about local authorities, venues and looking at where live performances exist, we would have a pretty good heat map of what is going on in the country. That would serve the witnesses' organisations. That is a piece of work that we are going to have to do.

I used to work for Fáilte Ireland, for my sins, before I made the decision to go down this line of work. Fáilte Ireland has a mandate and it sticks to that. I am not defending it, but that is just the reality. Its mandate is domestic and international tourism, including developing the product capacity and destination capacity for international tourism, which is done by Tourism Ireland. It would be supportive of major events bringing people in and distributing people around the country.

The Arts Council issue is something that has come up here. I am glad that Deputy Ó Snodaigh brought it up. We have the Ministers here on this a bit as well. There needs to be a change in focus. The mandate of the Arts Council for some reason narrowed into specific categories and areas, including specific types of music. That needs to be widened out. We have a window for doing that.

I have a question in my time left. Having summarised all of that, is there another key issue that is blocking the organic development of live music in locations around Ireland outside of the issues we have discussed? We have heard about insurance, risk and all of that. Is there anything we have not heard about today? I will start with Mr. Moran and Ms O'Connor.

It is about supports from the grassroots up so that, when an organiser approaches a local authority venue, the supports are there for them. I mentioned earlier that there were many amateur organisers out there. Like artists at the start, when they do not receive supports, they make mistakes and we lose them. The independent music festivals grow to a certain point and are either successful or unsuccessful depending on the supports that are around them. The only way to support them is to educate the enablers in the local authorities and statutory agencies and support them. It is a bit like the funding view. We have to take it from the top down and strip it back to how we are doing business, how we are helping the people who are trying to do business, how we are measuring the success and how we are helping to promote those who are successful.

The biggest existential threat to the live music sector is AI. We have to fully implement the EU AI Act and go further than the Act. Do not do it as a minimum. AI platforms are mining existing works to use in their algorithms and training sets to develop new copyrights to compete with the artists. Deputy Malcolm Byrne said that he was dealing with it at the AI committee, which is good, but I wish to emphasise that those works are being used with impunity at the moment. There is no sharing of the revenues. It is deeply unfair. It is the single biggest threat outside of the other things we referenced.

We will have a second round. It is three minutes, including questions and answers. I call Senator Noonan.

It has been a really useful session. I wish to mention the promoters specifically. A lot of the people out there are not all big promoters. I think of people like the late Willie Meighan, who had Rollercoaster Records in Kilkenny, and Tom Stapleton, who brought the likes of Townes Van Zandt and Guy Clarke down to Roscrea. These were acts that we would never have seen if it were not for these people, who never make money on them. There is also Garrett Kehoe, who is currently the Kilkenny Roots Festival. They, too, have to try to either break even or get to a point where they can hold onto some money for next gig. Typically, that is way they operate. The whole discussion here around the precarious nature of the industry is troublesome.

Definitely, if you use a heat map, Kilkenny is going to be on fire - there is no doubt about it. At the same time, it is built on sand, and it needs greater State support. We have a very good local authority that supports us down there, and I want to make that point.

The National Concert Hall was mentioned. I saw Joan as Police Woman there for under €30 last year, and there are concerts coming up this year for under €30, including Laurie Anderson. It is great that we can have pricing at that level.

Another thing we could give consideration to is supporting people with disabilities and visual impairments, whether through peer support or a buddy system, as they do at festivals and concerts in the UK. It would get additional people into concerts and give them an opportunity to attend venues with some support. I ask for consideration to be given to this. If it gets an extra five people into a gig, it can make all the difference from it being a very lonely gig. I have played plenty of gigs where there were more people on stage than there were in the audience. That could make a huge difference. It might be worth working with some of the disability organisations to see if we can bring in a support system to support people with disabilities, visual impairment or intellectual disabilities to go to concerts and gigs. That might be worth exploring.

On that point, AbleFest, which takes place in Dublin and is in its second or third year in operation, specifically focuses on people with additional needs. That is a great example of how it can be done, and done in an inclusive way. We do not want to make it the exception to the rule. We want to integrate people with additional needs in the exact same way as everybody else attending the festival. AbleFest is a great example of that.

On the Senator's first point, we cannot have the music system as we know it at the moment, depending on people with passion for what they are doing or people’s personal projects, because they will not be around all the time. As the Senator said, that is built on sand, and it is going to collapse. It needs to have more solid foundations. We need to have policies and initiatives in place that we know are going to continue, then build on what is there already and make it stronger, as opposed to hoping that somebody else comes along to take the place of the person with the passion who is no longer there.

My fellow Droghedian, Deputy Joanna Byrne, was alluding to Johnny Connor’s, or the Boxing Club, as it was known in the mid-1980s in Drogheda, which was an incredible live venue. We had every single band you could mention visit us in a place that did not even have a door on the ladies’ toilet. When I am talking about venues, that is what I am talking about. I would extol the virtues of Mark Davies, our night-time economy adviser. I, too, would rather not go to a pub, but I love live music. Over the last couple of years, whether on Culture Night or at other times, Mark Davies has trialled live music in places like coffee shops, bookshops, restaurants and even the library once or twice. How can we encourage people to open up their doors? It is fantastic to have opera in an Italian restaurant, or to have a flautist and a viola player in a coffee shop at night. How can we encourage venues to open their doors and allow them to be used?

One of the interesting things that came out of the Dublin night-time economy lately was the interactive map of all the different cultural events that are taking place. The publicity of that, and to be able to see what everybody else is doing and the opportunities that are there, perhaps in a café that normally closes at 6 p.m., is fantastic. For many people, when they are in those kinds of venues, they are so taken up with the day-to-day operations that they do not have a chance to stand back, look at all the other opportunities, and see what other people are doing and what is out there. This could encourage people along the way. I commend the Dublin night-time economy adviser on the work he has done on that map. It will be a huge advantage to Dublin, especially to visitors coming into the city or people looking to expand their cultural outreach outside of the pubs and traditional venues.

The night-time economy initiative is something I would like to see expanded. Every county could do with a night-time economy adviser to make sure there are opportunities for people to attend cultural events, and to know that cultural events are taking place. Many communities around the country are doing stuff, but they do not have the support to be able to spread the word about what they are doing a bit further than their own communities. To be able to expand that night-time economy initiative to all counties in Ireland would be amazing.

Would the witnesses encourage the use of alternative venues?

I was involved in the Dublin festival that used to take place in Dún Laoghaire a few years ago, the Festival of World Cultures. Over ten years or so, we expanded into all of the local businesses, for example, coffee shops, and we were doing speed dating and poetry, and had Japanese geisha coming into the hotels. We found that there is a desire there. Once the organisers, who are the linchpin, or the night-time economy representatives have that agenda, it is actually quite easy to get these venues on board. It is quite formulaic. The key part of it is removing the barriers, for example, explaining where insurance liability lies, what safeguarding will be in place, what resources will be available and if there is an issue with the venue. It has all been done before. The fans are all there. It is just a case of wanting it.

I hate that Ms O'Connor is talking about it in the past tense. This is clearly something there would be a market for. To enable us to spread the word would be fantastic.

If anyone wants to experience something different, come to Gorey.

We all market our own areas, as you can see.

They have a bus from Gorey to Kilkenny.

We have to collect them coming over. They are only jealous. On Culture Night in Gorey, people can get jazz in a café, and bar owners regularly support live music or live comedy. The Gorey Little Theatre is a trustee-owned venue, and that gives huge support. Gorey School of Art tries a whole range of innovative approaches. There is poetry in the park, and there is that real culture. Places like Gorey, Kilkenny and Galway are successful because that ecosystem is there. It is not just in big areas. One of the other places I am very conscious of is the Courthouse Arts Centre in Tinahely, a very rural area in west Wicklow, which is incredibly innovative in the programming that it offers.

Apart from the arts capital programme, we need to think about the support for promoters, which was mentioned, but also for the venues. Historically, in Wexford County Council, there used to be a guarantee against loss scheme, which encouraged venues to take a chance or a risk. It was not for just anything, and there had to be a bit of a business plan, but it was to ensure that something would wash its face. With the night-time economy, there have been some of those initiatives, but it is the bars and venues that are taking the chance. There are safe events that people can put on that they know will get big crowds in, and so on. However, particularly for new and emerging artists, it is about providing support for that risk.

That is a very good idea. It would certainly encourage risk-taking. It would establish some of those venues at the early stages and encourage them to take a risk on new artists. It does both. It establishes the venue at the early stage and also establishes up-and-coming artists at the early stage of their career.

It is like the basic income for artists scheme or any of those supports. We were very fortunate that Ed Sheeran started his career busking on the streets in Gorey, and we still have a lot of buskers. We should be able to give that opportunity to the next Ed Sheeran or whoever it is, just to give them a break. The basic income for artists scheme does a bit of that, but we need to be more innovative as well.

I know I went on about the culture card the last time, but it is something I feel very passionate about. I really want to see its introduction as soon as possible because there are so many benefits to it.

I have one question that I will direct to both organisations. It concerns a recommendation that IMRO brought forward to increase the number of live music venues outside the main urban centres. How do the witnesses think that can be achieved, given the fact that many rural pubs have closed in recent years? There is a need to foster a young person's talent, especially if it is someone like Ed Sheeran who is playing in the local pub starting off. How do the witnesses think we can manage that gap? With music, first, there is the participation piece, which is very important to get people at a young age to have a love of music, but at the same time, there is Music Generation in particular. I was chairman of Kilkenny and Carlow ETB when we introduced Music Generation, and that has been transformational in many areas, for example, with trad groups.

It is incredible for younger people who are participating in music. My worry is about the fact that people play for the enjoyment and that when it comes to getting to the next level and getting out there, there is a lack of live venues in rural areas. What can we do to help in that regard?

Yes, there is. Deputy Byrne just alluded to covering the risk of venues setting up. That would encourage more venues is smaller rural areas in particular where it is acutely difficult to host commercial live music events. That could really help. It would be good for local musicians and artists.

I would start with heat mapping what we have in terms of where there is a want and where there is a need. There is no point in putting a venue where there will be no audience. The process probably needs to be led nationally. A successful venue can host a market in the morning, a low-key performance in the afternoon and an event at night-time. We need to be able to have a greater variety of spaces on offer in those locations.

When Boyzone started 25 or 30 years ago, they toured the country in a Hiace van with Louis Walsh. They came to Graiguenamanagh, my hometown, and played the local hall. We do not see that happening as much any more. I know are talking about the night-time economy and pubs, but when Boyzone were starting out - they probably sang about two songs and danced around the place - there were about 500 young people at the gig in my hometown.

There is probably a bit of fatigue for local halls in the context of dealing with insurance and liability issues. The environment we are doing business in is difficult. One aspect is educating statutory agencies and helping them to support these spaces to remain open. I learnt recently that you cannot serve sandwiches in a local town hall any more. That is down to health and safety.

It is getting insane.

It will kill every rural funeral.

I am not saying it is wrong. There is a right way to do things and a right way to support them. If we throw open the doors-----

Where did Ms O'Connor hear that?

I will not name names.

I know, but will Ms O'Connor tell us the story.

It is a food safety situation that people would be bringing in-----

Does Ms O'Connor know of an example where that happened?

I have heard of the example. It is in my head, but I would want to be 100% certain it is right.

A venue might as well close down-----

I eat sandwiches in community halls nearly every weekend.

I do it every night of the week sometimes.

That is the overregulation.

It is crazy stuff.

We do it with all venues whether it is things like sandwiches or other things. There needs to be a bit of cop on regarding, for example, a hall that has always been used where somebody suddenly says that it is not up to the grade A standard. I am not saying that we should waive safety - electricity or fire safety - but some of them are over the top. That is why some venues have to close. The owners cannot invest the money necessary to bring them up to the grade A standard or they cannot expand. Venues are key. Without venues, people cannot perform. One of the problems in this city is that venues are closing because developers are buying them and then sitting on them.

Then there are practice venues. We do not have enough such venues, which people often forget about. An audience will go to see a particular performer, but they do not ask how that performer got to the point where he or she could put on a show for them. People do not even ask how the individual or group got their Hiace van. Of course, it is not possible to use Hiace vans any more because you cannot have any more than two people in the van. People cannot travel in the back of these vans. All those restrictions mean that there is a cost. It is nearly discouraging people from being involved.

The Future of Cross-Border Cooperation in the Arts report tracked audiences. It is worth looking at. It was commissioned by Analysing and Researching Ireland, North and South, ARINS, and I can send on the link to people. Part of the process relating to the report involved heat tracking. The report was launched two years ago in IMMA. It tracked audiences using Ticketmaster, which was not very supportive, Eventbrite and the like. There was GDPR stuff involved, but the researchers did not care about names, they just wanted to find where audiences were moving around the country. They were able to show where audiences from the North were coming down here and vice versa. It would be useful if that was being done. If Ticketmaster and so on co-operated, it would help those compiling these reports, the industry and performers.

I would issue a word of caution about the heat map, however. It will show where everyone is going but places in which there are no venues but in which there is demand might be excluded. You do not know where demand exists in some cases.

It has to be cross-checked.

It would show the gaps, though.

It will show the gaps. It could be a case of "Oh they are all going there, so there is no need".

One of the questions asked related to why there is such a dearth of live music in towns or villages of similar size, so it would throw out some of those.

It is useful in the context of audiences. On the closure of venues, we have heard about the Complex closing. That was not just a venue; it was also a practice space and so on. When one venue closes, you find another venue. That is only a temporary solution, however, because those involved do not own these venues and it is a huge cost to getting access to new venues. It is a question of how we encourage the likes of Ray Yeates, the arts officer in Dublin, who is brilliant, to be able to make the demands of the council and all of that. How do we help people like him to do their work?

We would need to look the business case. It is all driven by finance. There is a need for data. With the likes of the Complex there is clearly a need for that. As the Deputy said, the problems associated with that venue run far beyond the event industry, so I could not possibly respond to them. From my experience, the key thing is putting forward the need and want to local authorities helps them translate it into something workable.

I am still getting over the sandwiches.

I would not take on the FCA, or, rather, the ICA.

The FCA or the ICA.

The ICA.

There was a night-time venue that I do not think anyone here would remember called Katie Daly’s. It was over the road from me between Portroe and Ballina on the Tipperary side near Killaloe. It was a venue for venue and lots of other things. Back when I was a teenager, you had to have chips and sausages. They became missiles on the floor later on. It is a case of HACCP requirements then versus now. If we have venues that cannot operate because of rules relating to serving tea and sandwiches, then, without a shadow of a doubt, we are at a point of crisis.

It could force a ministerial resignation.

It could. Where I come from, we have the legacy of Shane McGowan, which is providing a lot of direction insofar as people coming to visit or being inspired to advance their careers in music. What we have identified today are issues that this committee might compile a mini-report on. We have identified all the issues. Putting them all in one document would be very useful. They are tangible issues. I mentioned transport. We also have to mention HACCP legislation and overkill or overregulation. Putting all those issues together will help everyone in advancing and protecting our music industry and will provide the ecosystem for the future. I thank everyone for their contributions.